How do you envision the Temples of Rad in Glantri? For a nation that seems to be vehemently anti-religion, the Temples seem to be pretty standard religious institutions- they have services, clergy/shepherds who receive their commands from "on high" (the Brotherhood of the Radiance). Is it just that they don't worship named Immortals that sets them apart from other religious organizations in the Known World?
Also, where does the Flaemish lack of tolerance for Immortals derive from? From their introduction in Gaz3, they seem to have had a degree of religious bent in their past (they call the time traveling students "infidels" and are preparing to sacrifice them to the Great Flame). Again, is it just a lack of tolerance for "named" Immortals as opposed to the elemental powers (like fire) more than anything else?
As to Flaems: in our current campaign the PCs became involved with ancient Fleam religion. The Flaem escaped from certain doom in Old Alphatia by appealing to powerful elementals and fiery immortals. Their whole way of life was reformed around the Exodus and the Protectors. As the "Chosen People" they were extremely intolerant and xenophobic when they arrived in Mystara.
In my campaign I decided that the oldest elements of the Flaem society still cling to their old religion (Followers of the Flame). But that doesn't make them very open to the polytheistic spirit of many Mystaran people. They are still zealots.
How do you envision the Temples of Rad in Glantri? For a nation that seems to be vehemently anti-religion, the Temples seem to be pretty standard religious institutions- they have services, clergy/shepherds who receive their commands from "on high" (the Brotherhood of the Radiance). Is it just that they don't worship named Immortals that sets them apart from other religious organizations in the Known World?
I don't think so. The People's Temple of Ierendi does not worship specific Immortals, yet there's no indication that Glantrians are less hostile towards Ierendi clerics.
Also, there are major differences between the Temple of Rad and standard religions: first, there are no clerics in the Temple of Rad -- the Shepherds are wizards. Most likely, the Shepherds see themselves as a sort of Secret Craft, where the secret is mostly in their leaders ability to communicate with them through magic; second, most "rites" in the Temples of Rad are simply meditation routines designed to heighten mnemonic and logic abilities, not a form of worship -- the Glantrians don't worship magic, rather they try to understand it through mental disciplines.
Also, where does the Flaemish lack of tolerance for Immortals derive from? From their introduction in Gaz3, they seem to have had a degree of religious bent in their past (they call the time traveling students "infidels" and are preparing to sacrifice them to the Great Flame). Again, is it just a lack of tolerance for "named" Immortals as opposed to the elemental powers (like fire) more than anything else?
I think the historical reasons of the Flaemish hatred of Immortal-worshippers must be found in ancient Alphatian history -- the Flaemish in GAZ3 seem to have devolved to a much lower level of culture than their Alphatian ancestors. I suppose their intolerance stems from the old Alphatian academic rivalries, as seen through the minds of progressively less cultured (but still hateful) descendants -- they are simply intolerant towards anyone who disagrees with their belief that Fire is the most powerful force in the multiverse. Still, they don't worship Fire per se -- it is part of the Old Alphatian culture, they probably see Immortals as simply exceptionally powerful wizards, and therefore for Immortals to request worship is more or less a form of fraud, while Immortal-worshippers must be considered weaklings (note that self-reliance is the area of concern of one of the most ancient Alphatian immortals).
GP
I don't think so. The People's Temple of Ierendi does not worship specific Immortals, yet there's no indication that Glantrians are less hostile towards Ierendi clerics.
Also, there are major differences between the Temple of Rad and standard religions: first, there are no clerics in the Temple of Rad -- the Shepherds are wizards. Most likely, the Shepherds see themselves as a sort of Secret Craft, where the secret is mostly in their leaders ability to communicate with them through magic; second, most "rites" in the Temples of Rad are simply meditation routines designed to heighten mnemonic and logic abilities, not a form of worship -- the Glantrians don't worship magic, rather they try to understand it through mental disciplines.
This makes sense. I am reminded of religious organizations started by the Communist parties in Eastern Europe during the Cold War. Their main purpose was to undermine the power of the official churches in the region. Maybe the Temples of Rad are called Temples of that reason. Noone can complain that there are no temples in Glantri!
I think the historical reasons of the Flaemish hatred of Immortal-worshippers must be found in ancient Alphatian history -- the Flaemish in GAZ3 seem to have devolved to a much lower level of culture than their Alphatian ancestors. I suppose their intolerance stems from the old Alphatian academic rivalries, as seen through the minds of progressively less cultured (but still hateful) descendants -- they are simply intolerant towards anyone who disagrees with their belief that Fire is the most powerful force in the multiverse. Still, they don't worship Fire per se -- it is part of the Old Alphatian culture, they probably see Immortals as simply exceptionally powerful wizards, and therefore for Immortals to request worship is more or less a form of fraud, while Immortal-worshippers must be considered weaklings (note that self-reliance is the area of concern of one of the most ancient Alphatian immortals).
True. My own take on the Glantrian view of Immortals is that they are seen only as very powerful creatures. Power should be sought through intellectual and artistic pursuit, but not through worship of those of more power than yourself. The Averoignians obviously added to this viewpoint, but if it existed among the Flaems in earlier times, it would probably be linked to what you describe above.
Havard
One possible interpretation is simply accretional enmity during the Exodus over a sense of abandonment - although those that made it to Mystara would have been the "Alphaks-untainted" and thus right with their patrons.
I've always felt that the anti-clerical bias came from Averoignian, anglaise, and Klantyre leadership. The whole reason they fled the Old World was to escape church-backed persecution of witches and wizards. The rank-and-file commoners might not share this dislike, but the wizards in these groups would not want to risk another persecution in their new home.
To support this contention, the only cleric appearing in X2 is evil (I forget which d'Amberville at the moment).
Outside of the Red Steel family, I'm not well versed in the Mystara 2E line (despite liking 2E in general :embarrass ). Has anyone ever nailed down who it was that created the Flaemish origin for the bias (the author, BH notes, someone else in the office) during production?
-OldDawg
I don't think so. The People's Temple of Ierendi does not worship specific Immortals, yet there's no indication that Glantrians are less hostile towards Ierendi clerics.
True, but Gaz4 hadn't come out at the time of Gaz3, so I wouldn't imagine it would reference them there. As for why it wasn't addressed afterwards, dunno- they don't seem to have really delved too much into any of these things.
Also, there are major differences between the Temple of Rad and standard religions: first, there are no clerics in the Temple of Rad -- the Shepherds are wizards.
The shepherds are effectively the Rad clergy, though. They may not cast/utilize divine magic, but they are still what I would define as an ecclesiastical body. They are an exclusionary group ("their wisdom comes from talismans only they know how to build"), they believe in a higher being that only they can communicate with ("The Shepherds think they are hearing the Voice of Rad"), they are almost fanatical about their beliefs ("[they] are absolutely faithful to the talismans' suggestions"), they observe rituals ("All they do is recite bizarre mantras... and perform meaningless ceremonies.")
To me, the description sounds exactly like a religion, and one that is supposed to promote the beliefs of Rad, whoever/whatever that entity is supposed to be (yes, we know it is Etienne, but the implication seems to me to be that Rad is just a "force"- since the Glantrians dislike divine religion so much).
second, most "rites" in the Temples of Rad are simply meditation routines designed to heighten mnemonic and logic abilities, not a form of worship -- the Glantrians don't worship magic, rather they try to understand it through mental disciplines.
The descriptions make me think otherwise, though. Aside from the quote above about the absolute belief and their hearing "the Voice of Rad", there is another one later- "The disciples become fanatical followers of the wizards' way of life, absolutely opposed to the concept of divine religion." The disciples and Shepherds are absolute believers and fanatic about their beliefs- not just engaging in intellectual exercises.
This makes sense. I am reminded of religious organizations started by the Communist parties in Eastern Europe during the Cold War. Their main purpose was to undermine the power of the official churches in the region. Maybe the Temples of Rad are called Temples of that reason. Noone can complain that there are no temples in Glantri!
Hm- I'll have to look into these Communist religious parties you mention. They might be the missing piece of the puzzle I'm looking for.
One possible interpretation is simply accretional enmity during the Exodus over a sense of abandonment - although those that made it to Mystara would have been the "Alphaks-untainted" and thus right with their patrons.
Alphaks wasn't Immortal at the time the Flaems had to evacuate Alphatia and wandered the Planes, and he (and they) didn't rediscover one another until after they'd arrived on Mystara. Or did you just mean that they gradually became bitter at the Immortals as they were forced to wander for centuries? Which would probably work.
I've always felt that the anti-clerical bias came from Averoignian, anglaise, and Klantyre leadership. The whole reason they fled the Old World was to escape church-backed persecution of witches and wizards. The rank-and-file commoners might not share this dislike, but the wizards in these groups would not want to risk another persecution in their new home.
I think it would/should have been this way myself, but Mark of Amber pretty much put the lie to that theory. In the history of that module, the d'Ambrevilles are described as actually being sympathetic to the persecution of the clergy by the Flaems, due to their own persecution on Laterre. Guillaume and Janette (the cultural censors whose job it is to hunt down clergy in Nouvelle Averoigne) are described there as originally aiding the clergy while appearing to persecute them (sort of an underground railroad). Only much later do the two actually come to do their job for real. (And Janette, oddly, is a Flaem.)
Frankly, there is a lot of information in Mark of Amber that I would like to discount- this bit above (which doesn't seem to fit, to me), a lot of the stuff about how Etienne seems to be involved in every aspect of Glantrian history (he does everything but part the waters of the Red River), etc.
In short, I agree with your notion, especially in light of the actual outlawing of religion in Glantri (if we are to believe that it was only the Flaems persecuting it, then how to account for the fact that the unified nation of Thyatians, Traladarans, Flaems, Elves, Klantyre, and Sylairans all unanimously agree to outlaw religion after the 40 Years' War? If the cause of the conflict was initially clerical burnings, then wouldn't 2/3 of the nations' population still be in favor of the anti-cleric laws when the peace was restored?)
To support this contention, the only cleric appearing in X2 is evil (I forget which d'Amberville at the moment).
Simon, though he's been retconned as only having been evil due to the effects of Etienne's death curse. Mark of Amber would have us believe that he was a good cleric of Razud pre- and post-Land of Grey Mists. Why Etienne's death curse should have so twisted one of his few good family members so baffles me (even his son Claude, the "Lawful" one of X2, was given a lupin head, but his nature otherwise remained the same. Some of the more directly hostile to Etienne family weren't quite as twisted as being turned evil.)
Anyway, another bone of contention of mine with Mark of Amber. The Simon I tend to use is one who is much more in line with his X2 appearance.
Has anyone ever nailed down who it was that created the Flaemish origin for the bias (the author, BH notes, someone else in the office) during production?
I don't recall how much of it came from Glantri: Kingdom of Magic, but I know that a lot of the direct Flaemish opposition was detailed quite clearly in Mark of Amber (by Aaron Allston). Some of it was definitely implied in Gaz3, but I'm not seeing it explicitly played out there.
True, but Gaz4 hadn't come out at the time of Gaz3, so I wouldn't imagine it would reference them there. As for why it wasn't addressed afterwards, dunno- they don't seem to have really delved too much into any of these things.
Well, at the time of GAZ3, no one had detailed the pantheon of the Church of Karameikos either, so that would have been at the time a religion without named Immortals. Also, nothing in GAZ4 hints at a specific reason for Glantrians to be more friendly towards the Ierendi religion, yet religion in Ierendi is discussed quite in depth in the GAZ, and the author was definitely aware of Glantri and its peculiarities.
The shepherds are effectively the Rad clergy, though. They may not cast/utilize divine magic, but they are still what I would define as an ecclesiastical body.
IMO, they have what would be needed for us to define them priests, but that's because in RW priests have no powers, so there's need of something else to define them. In Mystara, if you cast Cure Light Wounds and/or are able to Turn Undead, you're definitely a priest. If you cast Magic Missile, you're not -- it's an oversimplification, but you get the idea: Mystarans are clearly aware of the difference between clerical and wizardly magic, and even of finer points, like the difference between clerical magic and mystic powers.
To me, the description sounds exactly like a religion, and one that is supposed to promote the beliefs of Rad, whoever/whatever that entity is supposed to be (yes, we know it is Etienne, but the implication seems to me to be that Rad is just a "force"- since the Glantrians dislike divine religion so much).
Of course they are Etienne's tools to control the Glantrian society. But whatever they think the "Voice of Rad" is (which by the way happens to be several different voices, since every member of the Brotherhood can speak to the Shepherds in his own fief), it is not necessarily a divine being (actually, it's clearly not acknowledged as such).
The descriptions make me think otherwise, though. Aside from the quote above about the absolute belief and their hearing "the Voice of Rad", there is another one later- "The disciples become fanatical followers of the wizards' way of life, absolutely opposed to the concept of divine religion." The disciples and Shepherds are absolute believers and fanatic about their beliefs- not just engaging in intellectual exercises.
But fanaticism and intolerance, while certainly usually associated with religion, need not to be specifically religious. And while getting organized and militant atheism is quite difficult in RW, there have been, as Havard mentioned, some cases.
In this case, it is clear that they aren't fanatical about a religion, but rather about the wizards' way of life -- the mantras are specifically said to enhance intelligence (while at the same time lowering wisdom!), so they aren't entirely meaningless.
However, the quote is IC from a non-Glantrian (actually, extraplanar) NPC, so it only represents his reaction to the odd beliefs of the Glantrians. I wouldn't take it as the last word on the Shepherds. Actually, the only Shepherd mentioned (in the adventures section) is not at all a fanatic -- actually, he even has doubts about the nature of his order!
Anyway, the original thread is here. But I'll post the relevant discussion, since there were only two posts initially.
Doing some thinking about the d'Ambrevilles (they've been on my mind a lot lately...
Anyway, while doing so, I got to thinking about the Shepherds of Rad, organized and secretly led by, of course, Etienne "Rad" d'Ambreville.
What struck me, though, was the timeline. The Shepherds and Temples of Rad are seemingly a very influential, or at least relatively widespread and innocuous aspect of Glantrian society- their answer to "religious worship" minus the paying homage to the Immortals.
But Rad as an Immortal didn't appear on/near Mystara until 979 AC- he couldn't have. By the timeline as established (most evidently) in Mark of Amber, but reinforced in other areas (PC4 was, I think the first "canonical" reference to the module X2 taking place in 979 AC)- that timeline has it that Etienne was not fully Immortal when he was "killed" by Henri and Catharine, thus sending the Chateau d'Ambreville and its inhabitants into the Land of Grey Mists (or, as I like to think of it, Ravenloft.
Etienne, upon his "resurrection" in 979 (module X2), is now the Immortal Rad. So he couldn't possibly have established the Temples of Rad until this date.
So does that make the Temples of Rad only about 21 years old c. 1000 AC (Gazetteer period)? They've gained a lot of influence in that time, but I guess I could see it happening. Probably the result of Rad attempting to gain power/followers by instituting a following in Glantri- a difficult task, considering the Glantrians non-clerical ways. Pretty insidious that he managed to pull it off, and especially while sticking to the "non-cleric" line, so that other Immortals cannot make an inroads.
Or- another possibility that intrigues me-
What if "Rad" merely subverted an existing organization? What if the Temples of Rad were in Glantri from an early age, preaching their "non-Immortal" sermon, and thus well-established in that nation by the time Etienne reappeared on the scene in 979 AC? And Etienne, newly Immortal, and seeking followers, merely "jumped in", gaining control/influence over the Temples of Rad by the establishment of the Order of the Radiance and their crystal balls? A ready-made following (it would help explain how he gained such a high Immortal level during only 21 years as well).
And- this appeals to my "More Sinister than Wacky" d'Ambreville mentality- what if Etienne subverted an organization that had been originally created by another d'Ambreville? One of his brothers, in fact? What if the Temples of Rad had originally been established by Simon "I've Always Been Evil Since X2, Despite Later Changes To Make Me Good" d'Ambreville?
See, my Simon is an evil cleric- one who cavorts with the Cthulhianic entities the family entreats with as alluded to in X2- and I was thinking that it would be deliciously ironic if he had established a "non-Immortal" worshipping group (the Temples of Rad), who were secretly backed by the Outer Beings, but that Etienne later subverted them to himself (as Rad). Heh, heh...
Anyway, thoughts on any parts of this stream of thought?
Then Spellweaver responded thusly:
Finally, I have a moment to sit down and think all this through
I never read X2 so I don't know about Etienne's brother turning from evil to good?
I do like the idea that the Temples and Shepherds existed before Etienne, because the Glantrians have been anti-religious since the law of 858 AC,when the wizards claimed sole power (or so I figure).
But the temples could easily have existed before then. We know the Flaems sensed the Radiance - even if they could not use/control it. They might have started the temples as a sort of scholarly club? It says in Gaz 3 that the shepherds practise "mantras and bizzare rituals meant to enhance the intellect". It could be that since the Etienne became immortal they also started hearing voices...?
However, it also says in Gaz 3 that Etienne founded the first temples and established their philosophy and that these facts can be researched at the library in Glantri City. Of course, we can just change that.
But it also says somewhere that each member of the Brotherhood of Radiance must found a new temple. And that raises a lot of new questions:
1) Is there only one temple for each member that ever existed?
2) Or does each member talk to the shepherds of their own temple and Etienne / Rad talk to the rest?
3) What about Angus and Brannart who live under the same roof? Do they have two temples side by side in Glenmoorloch?
4) If a member dies do the shepherds then never hear voices again?
This needs further contemplation...
:-) Jesper
Any thoughts on the above?
Some more thoughts on the Temples of Rad that I've been long contemplating. Wish I knew if there were a way to link threads here- maybe Shawn can do it?
do you mean to insert a whole other thread into this thread? That doesn't appear to be able to be done.
do you mean to insert a whole other thread into this thread? That doesn't appear to be able to be done.
Oh, okay- didn't know if it was possible or not. Thanks for checking, though.
Any thoughts on the above?
Note that the Temple of Rad doesn't need to have originated with Etienne's Immortal ascension. Actually, since none of the standard clerical abilities are needed to the Shepherds, and the "Voice of Rad" is a magical effect of Radiance artifact (the big ones of the Brothers act as transmitter-receivers, the lesser once made by the Shepherds act only as receivers), the Shepherds are likely much older -- as is the concept of Rad (e.g., the "Light of Rad", which happened before Etienne's imprisonment in Castle Amber, IIRC).
Note that the Temple of Rad doesn't need to have originated with Etienne's Immortal ascension.
That's true. I'm still trying to figure out why Etienne would have gotten involved in the Temples in the first place. Mark of Amber has him as being sympathetic to the plight of the clerics, trying to keep them from persecution (mostly covertly) and not anti-religion, so I don't know that the idea of the Temples being created as a tool to undermine the other religions fits. It may be that that aspect of things came into play during the course of the disappearance of the d'Ambrevilles (from 896 - 979), when the other Brothers of the Radiance twisted the temples during Rad's absence (I'm assuming Etienne was known as Rad during this time to the other Brothers).
Which still leads the question of what Etienne had in mind for the Temple. I can think of a number of reasons if you discount the "benevolent" portrayal of him in Mark of Amber, and ascribe some more sinister (but not necessarily evil) motives to him, but the way he comes across in MoA doesn't really lend itself to any ideas offhand.
Some other thoughts:
Assume Etienne was known as Rad when he first founded the Brotherhood of the Radiance. He disappeared for over a century, during which time other Brothers likely stepped in and took over somewhat, at least eventually (finally figuring out Rad was gone).
Then Rad returns. Presumably, he could easily demonstrate that he was the "real thing" to the other Brothers by exercising his powers over the crystals, so they quickly accept the true Rad is returned.
Yet it must be known that Rad is Immortal by 1000 AC, at least. Clerics from other nations communing with their Immortals would be able to learn that much, wouldn't they? At least by the time Wrath of the Immortals rolls around Rad should be well known to be Immortal. How does that knowledge affect Glantri? Is the knowledge that the Temples are actually patronized by an Immortal going to affect them? Could it be part of the reason for them allowing clerical magic in the nation? Or do the Glantrians simply discount stories of Rad as an Immortal as mere rumors (despite evidence to the contrary)? Do they not care, so long as he doesn't have clerics?
As I recall, in WotI there is even information for specialty clerics of Rad, thus implying there must be some, somewhere, which again would seem to point to Rad being an actual Immortal being.
I'm thinking I may end up completely revamping the Temples of Rad from the (admittedly limited) information we have already...
It may be that that aspect of things came into play during the course of the disappearance of the d'Ambrevilles (from 896 - 979), when the other Brothers of the Radiance twisted the temples during Rad's absence (I'm assuming Etienne was known as Rad during this time to the other Brothers).
Most likely. Consider, though, that Etienne's position on the issue could have changed with time (especially after WotI).
IIRC one of the possible results of MoA is that Etienne returns "softened" to some extent.
Then Rad returns. Presumably, he could easily demonstrate that he was the "real thing" to the other Brothers by exercising his powers over the crystals, so they quickly accept the true Rad is returned.
Also, a few of the members knew him well enough to recognize his voice -- "Brother Estocada", for example, but possibly also Brannart.
Yet it must be known that Rad is Immortal by 1000 AC, at least. Clerics from other nations communing with their Immortals would be able to learn that much, wouldn't they?
Of course -- with amusing effects:
Cleric: "But this Rad you worship is an Immortal as well!"
Glantrians (chorus): "Burn him!!!"
How does that knowledge affect Glantri? Is the knowledge that the Temples are actually patronized by an Immortal going to affect them?
They probably wouldn't believe it, thinking it a ruse of the clerics to gain a foothold. The Shepherd themselves would not believe it, most likely.
Or do the Glantrians simply discount stories of Rad as an Immortal as mere rumors (despite evidence to the contrary)?
Which evidence? If they had evidence that Etienne was actually an Immortal, they would be probably quite proud of the achievement of their leader -- seeing it as proof that the wizards' way is better.
As I recall, in WotI there is even information for specialty clerics of Rad, thus implying there must be some, somewhere, which again would seem to point to Rad being an actual Immortal being.
I think the information in WotI is simply given in the event that Rad decided to sponsor clerics, which, AFAIK, he never did.
One, WotI clearly states that Etienne established the Brotherhood of the Radiance to study it. It does not say that he established it after he became Immortal. However, I think that he believed the radiance to have that very potenial and therefore came to the conclusion that one could achieve an ultimate state of being without subjecting oneself to a higher being.
In essence, Etienne replaced the role of Immortals with oneself. The founding of the BotR created a forum in which this progession could be researched and developed. The 'Voice of Rad', and to some degree the Temple of Rad, seems to me to be a vehicle that Rad can use to strengthen his philosophy and social influence to ensure his research of the Radiance can continue under his terms. I think it safe to say that with power comes the desire to have control.
The second thought that came to me was that the Temples of Rad seem to me to be somewhat similar to an oriental archi-type monestary where the goals seem pretty much the same but martial arts is replaced by the arcane arts. Not an exact comparison I know, but I certainly see shared elements.
Now, what messes me up is that it seems the authors place Etienne's discovery of the radiance, the founding of the BotR, the founding of the Great School of Magic, and his attaining Immortality all at about the same time; about 150 years ago. Is this right? Shouldn't this be spread out in a natural progession?
The irony of the whole thing is that Etienne wanted to remove any influence of the Immortals upon mortals, to prove that mortals can 'do it on their own', and yet creates a power structure (the BotR and the ToR in which he has sole influence). His philosophies teach something he has exempted himself from. :P
(please correct any of my assumtions or 'facts')
The second thought that came to me was that the Temples of Rad seem to me to be somewhat similar to an oriental archi-type monestary where the goals seem pretty much the same but martial arts is replaced by the arcane arts. Not an exact comparison I know, but I certainly see shared elements.
That's an interesting way to look at it, and it might explain why a similar type of structure (the people in Lhamsa) are allowed to continue to exist in Glantri despite also seeming like a "religious" organization.
Now, what messes me up is that it seems the authors place Etienne's discovery of the radiance, the founding of the BotR, the founding of the Great School of Magic, and his attaining Immortality all at about the same time; about 150 years ago. Is this right? Shouldn't this be spread out in a natural progession?
The timeline is a bit muddled, and only got moreso with successive additions to the canon (notably, putting definitive dates on the disappearance and subsequent return of Castle Amber). Here's the timeline as near as I can figure it:
728 AC: d'Ambrevilles arrive on Mystara, establish Nouvelle Averoigne. (MoA, others)
747 AC: The Braejr Council of Lords outlaws clerical teaching and magic on penalty of death. (MoA)
*I presume it was here or around here that immigration from Ethengar was also outlawed, though it isn't ever made clear precisely when that event occurred.
845 AC: Construction begins on the Great School of Magic. (MoA, Gaz3)
858 AC: Light of Rad decision, nobility reserved for magic-users only. (Gaz3, others)
875 AC: Great School is completed. (MoA, Gaz3)
896 AC: Etienne is confirmed as a prince, is assassinated by his brother Henri and wife Catharine, hits the d'Ambrevilles with a death curse, Chateau d'Ambreville disappears into the Land of Grey Mists. (MoA, PC4)
979 AC: D'Ambrevilles are returned due to the intervention of a band of adventurers. (MoA, WotI, PC4)
When Etienne discovered the Radiance I don't really have any information on- I'd assume it was not long after their arrival (the Flaems had been using it since at least 495 or thereabouts, as attested to by the Dragonlord novels).
I'd imagine the founding of the Brotherhood and the Temples occurred at or around the same time, given their intertwining natures, and it would have had to occur prior to 858 AC (when the term Rad was already in common enough parlance to be given as the name to one of Glantri's most singular events).
Etienne has already begun the transition to Immortality by the time of his assassination in 896 AC (according to MoA- it's what initiates the whole death curse), but doesn't attain his full Immortality until freed by adventurers in X2/979 AC. Which is, as I figure, the point at which he decides he will make his Immortal name Rad, the name by which he was going as a mortal leader of the Brotherhood.
But that again raises some questions- why is the decision of 858 called "the Light of Rad" decision? Even MoA doesn't attribute that event to Etienne. Presumably it must have had something to do with the (evidently considerable) influence of the Temples of Rad.
So assuming the Temples of Rad were already very prominent and influential by 858 AC, at which point I assume that Etienne wasn't even a transitional Immortal, and just a mortal man, then what does that say about the Temples?
(I'm reasoning through this as I go, if you were wondering, so bear with me if I'm rambling)
It must have been evident, by my own reasoning in previous posts, that Rad was not (at that time) an Immortal, so that would bring the element of the divine out of the Temples that I have been wondering about.
At the same time, as the Shepherds were receiving their guidance from "Rad" (and possibly others), so someone must have known- at some level- that there was a person or entity named Rad that was the instrument behind the Temples.
Gah! I don't know.
I'm leaning towards- at the moment- the Temples having already been established, albeit in a much less formal and influential position, by some members of the Flaems prior to Etienne's arrival. Rad, to them, would have been more of a concept than a divine entity (as others have suggested, "Rad" was probably the name they gave to the idea of magic- kind of like the Tao or something). They may even have had some members (founders?) who were aware of the Radiance at that point (perhaps an existing, but much smaller, Brotherhood of the Radiance?)
Etienne saw this rudimentary organization around the time he discovered the Radiance, and saw an opportunity to make use of it to further his own studies of the Radiance. Thus he either formed or infiltrated the Brotherhood of the Radiance, began to communicate with the Shepherds under the guise of "Rad" given voice (which I'd imagine must have been strange, but perhaps if he did it gradually, over time, it wouldn't have been so shocking to the anti-divine Flaems), and organized the Shepherds into a much more powerful and influential structure in Glantri. It would have been poised, then, to step into the power vacuum left with the outlawing of clerics in 747 (an event that wouldn't have been foreseen by Etienne). Of course, that means he did all of that in 19 years, which may not have been enough time.
(Unless he had help from another source, one familiar with ecclesiastical ways, such as his brother Simon- at least as I have him, already a cleric prior to his arrival in Glantri.)
Anyway, I guess this is a good starting point for me to go from. I'll see what else I can come up with.
I don't have GAZ3 available to me at the moment, but my impression of the Rad from that work, as Andrew hypothesized, was that it was viewed in-game as some mystical force.
The mystics/monks picked up this force a la radio-wave harmonics (a common sci-fi theme of the era when the gaz's came out), and created their philosophy and chanting to achieve this harmony. The Rad philosophy should predate the Brotherhood. To understand why its not treated as a "religion" look at the RW comparison of yogism with westernized yoga. [Perhaps a Sindhi-Urduk minority?]
As to knowledge of the Radiance itself - there are two divergent interpretations found in Gaz 3 and the Dragonlord series. In Gaz 3, it mentions that the mages realize that magic is stronger closer to Glantri City (hence the ordering of baronies etc), but that few to none suspect the existence of the Radiance as we the outside player/DM understand it. Etienne formed the Brotherhood to study the Radiance in secret.
I would hypothesize that he was the first to make the clear connection between the power boost and the Rad mystical force. Founding the Brotherhood could have logically occured before or after his own ascension, though I'd favor the latter. When he became Immortal, he simply adopted "Rad" as his use-name.
The Dragonlord series, sadly, posited that the Radiance was already known to the Flaemish wizards by the time of the novels and given its name. Worse, the dragons had instant understanding of the Radiance and could use it like it was a vitamin supplement
This is Black-Suns-Syndrome, so named after the criminal organization in Shadow of the Empire (Star Wars). Basically, the author tries to prove to the readership that he or she is fully aware of the setting universe by throwing in "secret knowledge." But in BSS, the insertion is inappropriately expressed as in-character knowledge. Soon you have grease monkeys on out of the way planets able to fully diagram the organizational flow chart of the never spoken-about syndicate, or in our case, characters with far too much familiarity with the Radiance. [Ed. Compare to the lack of gazetteer Karameikos in the Penhaligon Trilogy]
On the matter of the Light of Rad session, this one is a head scratcher. Three possibilities: 1) those in session "saw the light" - that is were moved to vote according to the will of the Rad (similar to the College of Cardinals in selecting a pope), 2) the session was held in secret, shielded and seen only by magic or Rad followers, and 3) the session coincided with a temple "Light of Rad" holiday.
1) seems the most unlikely, as it is too spiritual/religious in nature
2) has some poetry to it. The decision was basically a coup, after all.
3) History does love coincidence
What would Agincourt have been without St. Crispin's Day? [Three weeks ago we celebrated ...]None of these theories are mutually exclusive.
I'd imagine the founding of the Brotherhood and the Temples occurred at or around the same time, given their intertwining natures, and it would have had to occur prior to 858 AC (when the term Rad was already in common enough parlance to be given as the name to one of Glantri's most singular events).
Now I favor the temples preceding the Light of Rad, but it doesn't actually have to be that way. The name of an event often is created later in time. I doubt that "Glorious Rebellion" was being bandied about as Cromwell took over England. :D
-OldDawg
Now I favor the temples preceding the Light of Rad, but it doesn't actually have to be that way. The name of an event often is created later in time. I doubt that "Glorious Rebellion" was being bandied about as Cromwell took over England. :D
-OldDawg
Since the Glorious Revolution was in 1688-9 and Cromwell took over in the late 1640s, indeed, the term was not bandied about.
Since the Glorious Revolution was in 1688-9 and Cromwell took over in the late 1640s, indeed, the term was not bandied about.
Agh :embarrass :embarrass :embarrass :embarrass :embarrass :embarrass
I conflated the English Civil War with the Glorious Revolution
"Lousy Stuart monarchies with their civil wars and revolutions. How come I never get to do that stuff?."
The general point that I was trying to get across is still correct, however. The term Glorious Revolution didn't come into existence until later Whig historians wrote it as such. Similarly, "Light of Rad" might be a designation created by later Glantrian historians.
Oh well, always happy to be corrected by a peer, and much more gentle than some RW peer reviews ;)
Dr. OldDawg
728 AC: d'Ambrevilles arrive on Mystara, establish Nouvelle Averoigne. (MoA, others)
747 AC: The Braejr Council of Lords outlaws clerical teaching and magic on penalty of death. (MoA)
*I presume it was here or around here that immigration from Ethengar was also outlawed, though it isn't ever made clear precisely when that event occurred.
This one actually made me think about the origins of religion in Glantri. This is naturally connected to the cultures that came to the region. So the first seem to have been the Flaems.
Q. Did the Flaems have any religion?
I'm thinking no, but I'd imagine they likely had some form of philosophy regarding the spiritual or mystical. I'm not aware of anything published regarding this. However, by this time, the Flaems have been here for 3 and 1/2 centuries and would likely have any such philosophy well established. Furthermore, Gaz 3 indicates that the Radiance was discovered very quickly after their arrival so it could have had an influence on their philosophy (i.e. the Temple of Rad in it's embryonic form?).
Other settlers have by this time only been here for about 1 and 1/2 decades, so strong churches are not likely to have been established by these peoples. Beyond the fact that the Flaems are disgusted by these new settler's lack of skin colour, I think it reasonable to say that their religions would be veiwed with contempt; robbing a mortal's worth (as prescribed by the Flaemish pre-ToR philosophy) by transferring it to an Immortal being.
Q. Could these frictions have been futher aggrevated by the Flaemish Radiance-centric Arcane magic / self-spiritualizing philosophy, being so removed from the New-comer's Radiance-ignorate / Immortal-spiritualizing religions?
This self-spiritualizing aspect could have been veiwed as the 'Fire that lies within' and then developed to 'The Fire which Radiates from within' and believed to be a mirror-truth of the Radiance which radiates from Braejr. This has begun to be labeled 'Radiism' and the force itself known the Rad. It is a personal and cultural belief and as such there are no physical churches for Radiism. A 'church' would just be a group that would gather to discuss it's meaning and revelance. Wizards aware of the Radiance often found themselves acting as clan/community advisors and leaders (some were given by the title 'Shepherd ____' after death as a sign of honour for directing and protecting a community).
Q. Could the d'Ambrevilles have avoided these frictions with the Flaems due to discovering the Radiance as well, and generally developing along with this pre-ToR Radiism philosophy?
845 AC: Construction begins on the Great School of Magic. (MoA, Gaz3)
Q. Could the REAL reason for the founding of the Great School of Magic been to further research the Radiance?
I think so, but not openly and publicly. It was the 'Inner Circle' who sought the Radiance while those not yet worthy could develop common magics. Come to think of it, This 'Brotherhood of the Radiance' could have been the first of, and the model upon which the other 'Secret Crafts' were formed.
Thus far I'd say the knowledge of the Radiance and the philosophies of the Flaems unitied and formed the pre-ToR Radiism roots. Powerful magic-users sometimes collaborated their work on the Radiance under the umbrella of this philosophy. The earliest of the ToR rites were forming. Etienne d'Ambreville became a leader in this work and decided that a permanent and neutral location should be founded to provide a forum for this small yet important group; The Brotherhood of the Radiance is established formally. To finance their work and further advance magical knowledge in general, Etienne brilliantly made this forum a Great School of Magic. The school is ordered heavily by the Radiism philosophy of the Flaems.
858 AC: Light of Rad decision, nobility reserved for magic-users only. (Gaz3, others)
So far in this region's history, the greatest agent of friction has been philosophies in contradiction to the Flaemish Radiism. Therefore, these deviant ideals needed to be eliminated to ensure peace. Religion was outlawed because, as shown by Radiism, power comes from within, not by subjecting to some other controlling force. The Rad is a true and unchanging force without motive and freely usable by any who work to be worthy. As such, it needed to be given it's central role in the nation's political and social structure. Due to the greatness of results that eventually came out of this council session, it became known as the Light of Rad.
Etienne had been promoting this Radiism philosophy for many years by now (partly due to his work with the radiance, partly for purposes of attaining influence).
875 AC: Great School is completed. (MoA, Gaz3)
He founded the first permanent location for the teaching and practice of Radiism on a wing of the GSoM; he of course was head teacher, developing not only great wizards, but also great leaders and protectors that could go out into the nation and strengthen it.
It was not long before he had established several Temples of Rad around the nation. This not only strengthens the nation but also gives 'mundaners' who used to go to churches dedicated to Immortals a place to go and seek guidance and fulfillment. The tradition of Shephards is applied to the Heads of these Temples. Etienne's work with the Radiance has far surrpassed any other's.
896 AC: Etienne is confirmed as a prince, is assassinated by his brother Henri and wife Catharine, hits the d'Ambrevilles with a death curse, Chateau d'Ambreville disappears into the Land of Grey Mists. (MoA, PC4)
Due to his powerful magic-using abilities, political and social influences and contributions to national development (via the Temples of Rad), Etienne is naturally confirmed a Prince. He is assassinated on the brink of Immortalhood.