What do you use to rock Dark Sun??
My Thri-Kreen Dragon, the Terminus Vortexa (Wiz/Psi/Mind Mage/Cerebremancer/full Athasian Dragon) is the most powerful character I've ever developed.. And I'm considering redeeming him and putting him on the path to becoming an Avangion.
That's the one you named after the computer game, right?
:P
I'm a DM, so I don't have a "most powerful character". The beefiest NPC I statted up and used would have to be DMP as well (I'm not counting NPCs from the books like Kalak, Korgunard or Borys of course).
Well, technically speaking, it's Dregoth actually, as I wrote the 3rd edition version of him for Dregoth Ascending. His CR 49 tramps all over my homebrew version of old Dotey. But I haven't used him in my home games yet, so he doesn't really count.
Maybe that guy needs his own adventure. Like the Dark Sun version of White Plume Mountain.
Wait... didn't He feature in an adventure Brax had something to do with?
Sysane, The Terror of Urik; human gray stalker [undead], 6th bard/3rd assassin/4th defiler/4th templar/3rd mystic theurge
One of the arch-nemesis of my player. They hated him. He was ruthless, cunning, and unstopable. I used him with the scenario Arkhan shadow, as the main templar chasing the PC and Kornugard. After they killed him in an epic battle in the dragonbowl, he came back to life as an Athasian undead, more dangerous than ever, wanting to kill Kornugard so he can finally rest in peace. Since he was like a banshee, the only way to get ride of him was to have either Kornugard kill or finding a Banishment scroll. The PC took the later, and there was a quest just to find that scroll while still protecting Kornugard. They barely made it.
Kalak, Tyran of Tyr
In my campaign, the PC killed Kalak after a one-year quest searching for the Hearthwood spear.
Vok Tahiri, half-elf Psionist (psychoportation) lvl 25, member of the Order
That character was interesting since he was the child of one of my Player who came back in time (as a lvl 25 psionist) to kill his father and the PC (the player), evantually responsible of the release of Rajaat (still not happened in my game, but the PC plan to kill the Dragon, even if they are far from succeding). Of course, the PC didnt know the true identity of that guy, except they were always hunted by him. His fighting technique was to call himself from different time in the futur (using time travel) to fight the PC in the present. So the PC tough they were several clone of the same guy with little difference (aging). The trick to kill him was to slay the youngest of the bunch. They still havent figured that.
His name was Dragonslayer and he is a fighter 21/wizard 21 --> as you can guess, he killed dragons for fun and has a flying city which he has magically transported from his home world to Faerun in order to continue his battle againts the minions of Tiamat.
A recurring villian all my players hated iin my DS game (and still do) is Sinoro, currently a 14th level defiler (he has a PrC but I cannot remember which one). If you spell his name backwards, you will see a little bit into the plot of my game :D
Thge most power NPCs I have ever stated is the two versons of Dregoth I have posted and I have a 70th level version of Borys the Dragon of Tyr near completion.
Yeah Kal, your Borys is beefy.
Dragonslayer could take him - say hellow to my little friend -
Dragon's Bane - a sentiant adamantine katana +7, axiomatic, bane vs. dragons, vorpal. Powers - detect dragon at will (10 mile radius), cast heal 1/day. Special purpose - slay red dragon; special purpose power - against red dragons, all critical threats automatically comfirm and critical multiplier is x4.
His armor is great too -
Dragonskin Armor (+8 full plate armor), with wings that have no time limit for use, that also acts as a ring of universal elemental immunity but only against dragon breath.
and
Helm of Dragon Kings - provides wearer a dragon's keen senses and blindsense as well as protects against all gaze based attacks and provides the wearer with true seeing as a continuous effect.
His cohort is a unique dragon named Argengast (Silver Soul) - he has the body of an wyrm red dragon, but within him is the soul of an wyrm silver (so physically a red, but with the magical abilities of a silver).
As for Borys being beefy - well I will actually have two versions of him too - one at 50th and the other at 70th - kind of like I did with Dregoth. With the way I build these guys (with that speadsheet I sent you) it makes it easy to see where they are at for any given level and adjust from there for the desired level.
That's the one you named after the computer game, right?
:P
Not funny, Kamelion.
Not funny, Kamelion.
Beg to differ :D.
Dote Mal Payne
A handsome middle-aged man, dressed as an aristocrat. He has an eerie, undistinguished quality that makes you feel uncomfortable.
While mothers throughout the tablelands tell stories about “Malmao” to frighten their children, many people find Dote Mal Payne surprisingly disarming and likable in person. He is neither proud of his many atrocities, nor is he ashamed of them. As he sees it, he does what he needs to do to survive. Dote Mal Payne prefers to survive in comfort, luxury and style, but he has no qualms about submitting himself to temporary discomfort in order to gain greater wealth and safety in the long run. Dote Mal Payne does not enjoy killing. As he sees it, death is simply the way of things. He is the rare sort of defiler to stop and smell the flowers before defiling the patch.
History
Despite Dote Mal Payne’s aristocratic bearing, he came into life as a commoner’s orphan. Since Dote was attractive even as a child, the templars sold him as a plaything to a depraved noble. His master would often wake him in the middle of the night to amuse himself or other noble friends, always threatening to kill Dote should he embarrass his master or fail to cooperate. Dote became obsessively afraid of death.
Dote used the resources available to him to teach himself to read and to carry himself as a noble. In his masters’ library, Dote read speculations that the sorcerer-kings were immortal because they somehow combined wizardly magic with psionics. Listening in on the psionic training of his masters’ children, Dote taught himself the rudiments of Tarandan psionics, but kept these abilities secret for decades.
As an adolescent, Dote seized on an opportunity to advance his status, planting evidence that allowed templars to confiscate his masters’ estate, in exchange for a promise to train him as one of King Kalak’s defilers. Disliking the treacherous pretentious slave that had assised their schemes, the templars betrayed Dote cruelly. They fulfilled the promise to the letter, turning Dote over to the Arena necromancers for training. True, the necromancers wore the same black cassock that other defilers and templars wore. But in the Tyrian social hierarchy, “arena necromancer” was actually a step down from noble’s catamite. The black cassock hid the stains of blood and gore well enough, but necromancers smelled of dead flesh and all Tyrians shunned them.
In exchange for a few weekly lessons, Dote spent his nights cleaning dead carcasses from the arena sands. Dote bore the humiliation stoically, and despite his peers’ mockery, continued to speak and carry himself as an aristocrat.
Dote’s ability to learn quickly, and his unflagging politeness, kept him alive, and eventually gained him allies in strange places. Dote’s master secretly served a t’liz beneath the city. The t’liz took a strange liking to Dote, who better than anyone else, managed to swallow his horror and treat her as if she was a beautiful living woman. She saw through the flattery, but it amused her. She gave Dote training and knowledge that no one else could or would provide. Dote became her eyes and ears in Tyr.
War came to Tyr, and “Dote Mal Payne” (as he now styled himself) came to Kalak’s attention as an organizer. Undead war beetles needed building, and craftsmen and defilers actually wanted to work with Payne. His teams worked more quickly, produced in quality, so he rose to prominence, teaching the defiling arts to students as notable as Timor, who became senior templar after Tithian ascended the throne. He also gained access to the Royal Tyrian Library, and adopted his former masters’ aristocratic lifestyle, purchasing the estate where he had spent his adolescence. During the frenzied building of Kalak’s ziggurat, he became notorious when he formed a “night shift” of dead animated slave labor. He gained the nickname “Malmao.”
Despite his intimate association with undead since adolescence, Payne rejected undeath as a means to achieve his own immortality. As age began to creep on him, he sought means of prolonging his life. When Kalak died, Payne used the opportunities of chaos to steal certain texts from the sealed off portion of Kalak’s library. After his T’liz mistress helped him to decipher the ancient texts, he rapidly accreted power. Leaving Tyr, he sold his skills out as a mercenary for a time, working for a number of employers and gathering resources.
Home Away from Home
Background: Whenever land becomes available, the Free City of Tyr divides it between freeman farmers. The land of nobles that refused to give up their slaves, and the land of royal defilers, were among the first estates so divided. Recently, a mysterious buyer has purchased the mansion off of the land where Dote Mal Payne lived as a child. Workers are taking the mansion apart stone by stone, and transporting the stones north towards Draj. Dote wants to go home, but since Tyr is not safe to him, he wants his home brought to him. Bandits of Spoil, acting under Densis’ orders, have hired a famous Tyrian architect to supervise the dismantling and rebuilding of the mansion. Payne plans to keep the architect in the Troll Chasm, where he will continue to serve Payne either willingly or if necessary by domination or as a thinking zombie.
Hook: The T’liz wishes to know the whereabouts and doings of the man that she considers her husband, who she has not heard from in several years. She approaches the PCs through proxies, and asks them to very carefully track the shipments of this strange caravan and its swarthy crew. The proxy makes very clear to the PCs that they are not to harm, to do battle with, or even to have any contact with the person receiving the goods, because this person is “perhaps one of the most dangerous persons on Athas.”
Rewards: The T’liz will pay the PCs to tell her where the caravan has gone, and and she will also pay them periodically for their discretion, so long as she has other use for them, but if she fears that the PCs will disclose the secret, she will arrange to have them killed, or kill them herself when they come for payment.
Alternate Hook: The PCs are approached by Sadira, Timor, or some other member of the Tyrian Overcouncil or Senate with whom the PCs have worked. They offer the PCs a thousand pounds of Tyrian iron in exchange for Dote’s severed head and the stolen texts from the Tyrian library. If the PCs accept the task, then the overcouncil tells the PCs that they believe that a caravan of stones, supposedly bound for Draj, will probably lead them to Dote Mal Payne.
Rewards for Alternate Hook: If the PCs return with Dote’s head and all of the missing documents, then Tyrian overcouncil will deliver on its promise — eventually. There is not iron enough in the treasury to deliver one thousand pounds of iron at once, but the Overcouncil will negotiate to pay the PCs in installments up to 50 pounds of iron per month until the debt is paid. (“Surely you didn’t think that we meant that we could pay you such a sum all at once!”) If the PCs deliver partially on their promise, then the Overcouncil will be far less generous, awarding up to 400 pounds for Dote’s head and some of the documents, 250 pounds for all of the documents but no head, etc.
Here at Brax-Con I, Jon/Oracle is stalking DMP in the Troll Grave chasm. That's a bit of an interesting story. Following the stones got tricky. Jon had planned to just follow the caravan on crodly, but 2 days from Tyr, the group of bandits stopped and unloaded the stones onto a short stony mesa and a large green vessel sailed towards them to pick up the stones. Apparently DMP hired the captain of the Jade Marquess to transport the stones from near Tyr to the Troll Grave Chasm. Using invisibility Jon and the other PCs managed to stow away in the cargo hold, and after a long travel and various adventures, left the Jade Marquess at the village of Spoil, freed a captive of the bandits there to get some information, and traveled to the chasm, where they are now following bandit footprints to where DMP's Tyrian mansion is being rebuilt.
Lubar of Urik, a Yuan-ti Hamanu Templar lvl 13.
The antagonist from the Pentad? You made him a yuan-ti due to all the serpent mentions? Not a bad idea...
Brax, how do you guys handle the magic staves in Troll Grave Chasm, as mentionned in that Dungeon adventure? And...how is athas.org handling it, officialy?
The antagonist from the Pentad? You made him a yuan-ti due to all the serpent mentions? Not a bad idea...
Yupe
as you can guess, he killed dragons for fun and has a flying city which he has magically transported from his home world to Faerun in order to continue his battle againts the minions of Tiamat.
Of course. I totally guessed that he had a flying city which he magically transported from his home world to Faerun in order to continue his battle against the minions of Tiamat.
And on a side note I must agree with Kamelion.... it is funny:P
Of course. I totally guessed that he had a flying city which he magically transported from his home world to Faerun in order to continue his battle against the minions of Tiamat.
And on a side note I must agree with Kamelion.... it is funny:P
Come on man! Throw me a bone. I made this character when I was a kid and we played him and the rest of our group - all of whom were WAY over-powered, for like 15 years (not continuously - there was a time that we quit playing for very long stretches of time)!
Hey - Terminus Vortexa - you know it IS pretty funny, but I thought it was a RPG, not a computer game :D
Come on man! Throw me a bone. I made this character when I was a kid and we played him and the rest of our group - all of whom were WAY over-powered, for like 15 years (not continuously - there was a time that we quit playing for very long stretches of time)!
Hey - Terminus Vortexa - you know it IS pretty funny, but I thought it was a RPG, not a computer game :D
*throws bone* I wasn't making fun of the plot line, but rather the phrasing.
*throws bone* I wasn't making fun of the plot line, but rather the phrasing.
Yes...well...my writing and spelling all called into question in the same day
Brax, how do you guys handle the magic staves in Troll Grave Chasm, as mentionned in that Dungeon adventure? And...how is athas.org handling it, officialy?
The antagonist from the Pentad? You made him a yuan-ti due to all the serpent mentions? Not a bad idea...
So far, we're officially not paying attention to it. I cite Grave Circumstances in LC with regard to Azeth's Rest and to the area that we're now calling the Trembling Plains. Perhaps I should put in a lawyer's caveat that our consistency with Dungeon #56 with regard to the Trembling Plains and Barrier Wastes in no way should be construed as affirming anything that the adventure says with respect to the Troll Grave Chasm.
"Grave Circumstances" was useful for developing the northern lands, and I like the layout, but IMO, when a talented writer just runs out of ideas, he should have just skipped the whole Troll Grave Chasm bit and left a note that read "insert climax here."
Can anyone offer a plausible explanation for *why* Rajaat or anyone like that would set things up as described in that module? Or can we all agree that it's an implausible plot device?
I actually liked that adventure. Granted, the whole "one step dragon transformation" gig has been a little over done I still felt the adventure took a unique approach with it.
Unique might be a good thing if there was some consistency.
I understand there's always a trade-off between story and game-mechanics. But IMO the Troll Grave setup tossed both story and game mechanics out the window. I don't see any redeeming aspect about it. Good adventure, but the last 25% needs to be rewritten.
I find it absurd that *every* wizard spell is cached in that one location.
Can anyone offer a plausible explanation for *why* Rajaat or anyone like that would set things up as described in that module? Or can we all agree that it's an implausible plot device?
It was one of the locations that Rajaat frequented. Makes sense that the creator of arcane magic to have an extensive collection of arcane spells.
You also have to take into consideration that "every" spell back in 2e consisted of the Players Handbook, Tome of Magic, Preservers & Defilers, and the spells out of the 2nd DS setting box set. Not a lot spells when you think about it.
Unique might be a good thing if there was some consistency.
What is it that you don't find consistant?
It was one of the locations that Rajaat frequented. Makes sense that the creator of arcane magic to have an extensive collection of arcane spells.
Funny, I don't recall questioning that Rajaat would have an extensive collection of arcane spells. What I find absurd is the proposition that Rajaat would lay out such a large collection, all together, along with a "just push this button to become a dragon" device, in the Troll Grave Chasm.
You also have to take into consideration that "every" spell back in 2e consisted of the Players Handbook, Tome of Magic, Preservers & Defilers, and the spells out of the 2nd DS setting box set. Not a lot spells when you think about it.
The sheer number of spells laid out all together in such an illogical and relatively unsecured location is absurd, but that's not the point I was driving at. You've missed my point that we're talking about all as in 100% of the fragging spells available to DS wizards, meaning that since Rajaat set up all those cute staffs, not a single wizard on Athas has invented a significant non-epic spell. That's an insane proposition when you think about it. Dragon's Crown adventure shows that HAMANU was exchanging letters with the officers who were taking the islands on the Road of Fire from a powerful preserver resistance. Then there's the Wind Mages. All those powerful wizards who opposed Rajaat, you'd think that some of them would have made some spells in circulation today that Rajaat would not have had access to. Or that some wizard after Rajaat was imprisoned would have developed some useful spells. Hell, when were all the arcane silt spells written? Think about it.
What is it that you don't find consistant?
1. See above.
2. That Rajaat would have laid out so much power for any idiot to blunder into. Rajaat was not some mad oerthian dungeon-designer that ran around designing lairs that mapped perfectly to fit 8 x 11 pieces of paper with no particular story purpose in mind. We're talking about Rajaat here. Rajaat was big on control. He started a Jihad to eliminate wizards that he didn't have control of. It's entirely inconsistent with Rajaat's character to set up some bloody lottery that turns some random fool into a full-blown dragon.
It's entirely inconsistent with Rajaat's character to set up some bloody lottery that turns some random fool into a full-blown dragon.
What if the item were cursed? And the individual were placed under a quest spell to free Rajaat or carry out his cleansing war, or perhaps the item would bring back one of your campaigns lost SK's that you loved so much??
(I've never read the adventure, but I have an active imagination that works well with partial information) ;)
One thing I always wondered: Under 2nd ed only humans (or half-elves and maybe other exceptions) could become advanced beings, though I suppose with 3.5 ed it's opened up to demi-humans also, meaning such a character could eventually become an elemental ascendant?
Funny, I don't recall questioning that Rajaat would have an extensive collection of arcane spells. What I find absurd is the proposition that Rajaat would lay out such a large collection, all together, along with a "just push this button to become a dragon" device, in the Troll Grave Chasm.
I don't find it far fetched at all. Why would Rajaat care who had access to a ton of arcane spells? He taught any and everyone who wanted to learn magic back in the Green Age without concern. Why worry about someone stumbling across his collection of spells now? Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Rajaat's pyramid sink beneath the swamp at the conclusion of the adventure? There's no way that the PCs would have enough time to retrieve EVERY spell from it. I know when I ran it back in the day I didn't allow the players enough time to do that for that very reason.
As far as the "dragon transformation one shot device", whose to say that it wasn't Rajaat's intent for someone to stumble across it as well as all those spells? Sounds if the whole setup was to groom a new would-be-dragon for some purpose. What that purpose was is anyone's guess. Maybe it was to create another Hamanu type deal.
The sheer number of spells laid out all together in such an illogical and relatively unsecured location is absurd, but that's not the point I was driving at.
I'd hardly call the bottom of the Troll Grave Chasm an unsecured location. Plus, as I stated above the pyramid sinks into the swap at the end of the adventure.
You also have to take into consideration that during the time when Rajaat was actually actively using the pyrmid he more than likely had all sorts of sentries and what not guarding it. It could be that Rajaat had to vacate it abruptly for whatever reason (Maybe at some crucial point of the Cleansing War) and never had time, or the desire, to return for his spells.
You've missed my point that we're talking about all as in 100% of the fragging spells available to DS wizards, meaning that since Rajaat set up all those cute staffs, not a single wizard on Athas has invented a significant non-epic spell. That's an insane proposition when you think about it. Dragon's Crown adventure shows that HAMANU was exchanging letters with the officers who were taking the islands on the Road of Fire from a powerful preserver resistance. Then there's the Wind Mages. All those powerful wizards who opposed Rajaat, you'd think that some of them would have made some spells in circulation today that Rajaat would not have had access to. Or that some wizard after Rajaat was imprisoned would have developed some useful spells.
Whose to say that they didn't create new spells and they just weren't part of the collection? Or maybe they were and Rajaat just had copies of them and included them as part of the collection? Does the adventure pointedly say that all the spells found in the pyramid were personally created by Rajaat (its been awhile since I've actually read that adventure)?
Think about it
Appreantly I have. ;)
It could be that the whole structure was a "magical" item that sought out and recorded new spells - like a sentient structure with servant spirits that scoured the world retrieving spells. This would do several things -
Pretty radical concept but I can dig it
The opening Age of Magic was kind of like a free for all in creating wizards and such, so it would stand to reason that these wizards would gather and share on a much greater level in the beginning, increasing the overall level and skill of those working arcane magic. Also, this would allow for Rajaats move against the Preservers when he began hunting them, he knew all of their secrets and could design counter measures to take them all out easier.
Agreed.
It is also not like this would be the first magical structure that Rajaat would have built - ie the inverted pyramid in the swamp.
Precisely.
There are a hundred ways to make the idea work and not seem dumb :D
Exactly what I'm getting at. The Troll Grave Chasm adventure admittedly has some inconsistences, but thats par for the course when discussing DS. Much like the other inconsistences that plague the setting this one can be rationally explained and rectified to make sense as well.
As far as the "dragon transformation one shot device", whose to say that it wasn't Rajaat's intent for someone to stumble across it as well as all those spells? Sounds if the whole setup was to groom a new would-be-dragon for some purpose. What that purpose was is anyone's guess.
If that's what strikes you two as a rational explanation, then we're not going to come to an agreement. If you or Kal care to understand my critique (which you have not addressed), then read it again. You might also want to check out the complete book of villains.
Think about it
Appreantly I have.
Really? Did you think about the fact that Borys needed exactly that much power (30th level Dragon) to keep Rajaat imprisoned?
"Who's to say" that Rajaat didn't just decide to leave out a device that magically transforms some random dude into an supermunchkin exactly powerful enough to imprison Rajaat himself? Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
What if the item were cursed? And the individual were placed under a quest spell to free Rajaat or carry out his cleansing war, or perhaps the item would bring back one of your campaigns lost SK's that you loved so much??
(I've never read the adventure, but I have an active imagination that works well with partial information) ;)
That's a little better than how the adventure was written, but still isn't consistent with Rajaat's MO. He chose his champions carefully before giving them immortality and great power. Other than Hamanu, all were his students and filtered through from a large group of students. As for Hamanu, Rajaat knew enough about him to make a calculated choice. Leaving the choice to the first dude to come along and brave the minor traps, is absolutely inconsistent with how Rajaat did things. Not to mention that we're talking an even bigger power boost than the boost to Champion.
If that's what strikes you two as a rational explanation, then we're not going to come to an agreement. If you or Kal care to understand my critique (which you have not addressed), then read it again.
If I'm not mistaken, its that you felt the end was rushed and inconsistent to rest of the setting. Kal and I gave you some examples on how to rationalize those inconsistencies. If you don't find them to you're liking or find that there's no way to rationalize them thats fine.
You might also want to check out the complete book of villains.
For what exactly?
Really? Did you think about the fact that Borys needed exactly that much power (30th level Dragon) to keep Rajaat imprisoned?
I highly doubt that Rajaat was even aware that he could be imprisoned or that his Champions would turn on him never mind the power levels needed to do so.
If I'm not mistaken, its that you felt the end was rushed and inconsistent to rest of the setting.
Correct.
Kal and I gave you some examples on how to rationalize those inconsistencies.
I understand that's what you meant to do. I wasn't convinced. Perhaps someone could come up with a rational and believable reason for that setup. Maybe Rajaat's epic safeguards over the place needed renewing, or maybe it was a deadman's switch. In any event, given a choice between Abbey's version of the trolls and where the last trolls died, and the account suggested by Grave Circumstances, Will and I have chosen to go with Abbey. See RaFoaDK.
You might also want to check out the complete book of villains.
For what exactly?
For an explanation of a rational, motive-driven story, as opposed to a contrived plot-driven railroad setup. Dark Sun has always treated Rajaat as a villain in the CBV sense, rather than one of the old classic mad dungeon-designers we used to see in early 1e. (Obviously that doesn't mean that Rajaat never built anything. It simply means that he acted to fulfil his own purposes, not just to create some contrived adventure setup.)
I understand that's what you meant to do. I wasn't convinced. Perhaps someone could come up with a rational and believable reason for that setup.
I thought that Kal and I did a fine job of doing that. Perhaps you could provide us with some suggestions or what it was that you found unsatisfactory with the ones we provided.
Maybe Rajaat's epic safeguards over the place needed renewing, or maybe it was a deadman's switch.
Makes sense. Sometimes it takes the DM to fill in those blanks in order to rationalize things in any given adventure.
In any event, given a choice between Abbey's version of the trolls and where the last trolls died, and the account suggested by Grave Circumstances, Will and I have chosen to go with Abbey. See RaFoaDK.
Thats a matter of personal preferance I guess.
For an explanation of a rational, motive-driven story, as opposed to a contrived plot-driven railroad setup. Dark Sun has always treated Rajaat as a villain in the CBV sense, rather than one of the old classic mad dungeon-designers we used to see in early 1e. (Obviously that doesn't mean that Rajaat never built anything. It simply means that he acted to fulfil his own purposes, not just to create some contrived adventure setup.)
Welcome to the world of the 2e adventure designer
Most Dungeon Magazines back then resorted to the railroad tactic. To be fair, they kind of had no choice. Writters didn't have the luxury of the "Adventure Path" format they now use. I mean, how in depth can a designer get when confined to a 5-8 page adventure format? I'm sure that the author intended to have huge amounts of detail and plot driven material but had to cut them out due to limited space.Complete Book of Villains was 2e, and was written before Grave Circumstances. If you don't find what I've said here clear enough, that's where I'd recommend you start.
You're plenty clear, you're just choosing not to acknowledge my response and relying on an old TSR book to make your arguement for you.
I mean be fair, how much of CBoV can actually be used for a 5-8 page Dungeon adventure without cutting down on the actual encounter content? Leave detailed plots and motives for full blown "source material" forums like gaming supplement or Dragon Magazine where the designers have more content space to address such topics and not article sized mini adventures. Or better yet, the DM can round out and solidify those published villains themselves. CboV is meant to be a "DMs resource" in order to help them do that very thing after all.
2. That Rajaat would have laid out so much power for any idiot to blunder into.
Let's assume for now that Rajaat did have a library/repository. Considering that Rajaat was more or less surprised by Borys' Revolt, do you think it would be possible for a place like that to be forgotten? Maybe non-magic wielding stewards kept the place for as possible but eventually they all died off...
Deus ex Machina? Is it worth explaining?
"Who's to say" that Rajaat didn't just decide to leave out a device that magically transforms some random dude into an supermunchkin exactly powerful enough to imprison Rajaat himself? Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
To me Rajaat is allot like Sauron. He is not going to share power without complete control. There is noway he would lay down a 'this will make you a Dragon' button in anyway.
If you were Rajaat and you had a grand plan for genocide, you would not create bombs like that. It would guaranteed to blow up in your face.
To defend himself, and show is ultimate power, Rajaat used powerfull spell. He made a gateway to the plan of fire. That what created the actual Lava gorge. From it came thousands of thousands of fire elemental being Rajaat used against the champions army. The Champions troop were decimated by Rajaat army of fire being. The battle was fierce, but the champions evantually won, using deception and backstabbing. While there army was butchered and burned by Rajaat army, creating a diversion, they used psionic and magic to get inside the fortress and fight Rajaat toe to toe.
Magehome now lay ruined near the Lava Gorge, its great secret protected by fire elemental and burning undead from the champions army.
You're plenty clear, you're just choosing not to acknowledge my response and relying on an old TSR book to make your arguement for you.
If I'm being clear, then it's you that's not acknowledging my responses. No one's made any attempts to rebutt what I said about Rajaat's MO and the inconsistency with Abbey. All that Dark Sun stuff is just "old TSR books," so perhaps we don't have enough common ground to discuss this meaningfully.
He is not going to share power without complete control. There is noway he would lay down a 'this will make you a Dragon' button in anyway.
If you were Rajaat and you had a grand plan for genocide, you would not create bombs like that. It would guaranteed to blow up in your face.
That's how I see it.
Let's assume for now that Rajaat did have a library/repository. Considering that Rajaat was more or less surprised by Borys' Revolt, do you think it would be possible for a place like that to be forgotten? Maybe non-magic wielding stewards kept the place for as possible but eventually they all died off...
:D Maybe they were wind-up stewards. Those Eberron clockwork golems, do you have to wind them up, and how long do they run ? ;)
Deus ex Machina? Is it worth explaining?
I suppose that it depends on your point of view, and on what's at stake. In this case, as one of the storytellers that's describing the area, I'd say no. And I certainly have not seen any explanations here worth publishing. Will and I have scrutinized every source that's remotely relevant to our projects, and in most cases have bent over backwards to reconcile apparent contradictions. The Troll Grave fountain of munchkin power is just not worth it, and if anyone feels differently, then they can write the patch themselves and try to persuade the community.
If I'm being clear, then it's you that's not acknowledging my responses. No one's made any attempts to rebutt what I said about Rajaat's MO and the inconsistency with Abbey. All that Dark Sun stuff is just "old TSR books," so perhaps we don't have enough common ground to discuss this meaningfully.
Honestly Brax, you’re better than his. Are you even reading my and Kals repsonses? You're just being stubborn at this point. Kal and I have offered several logical reasons as to what Rajaat's motives may have been (none of which you have even remotely tried to refute). Instead of being obtuse and splitting hairs (yet again) why not direct that effort into suppling a reason as what Rajaat’s motives may have been.
As for Abby's material, not all people (if not most) find that to be canon to even begin with and shouldn't even be a factor. Furthermore, have the courtesy to address other people’s responses made prior to yours before crying "No ones addressed "X"" before expecting them to acknowledge yours.
Let's assume for now that Rajaat did have a library/repository. Considering that Rajaat was more or less surprised by Borys' Revolt, do you think it would be possible for a place like that to be forgotten? Maybe non-magic wielding stewards kept the place for as possible but eventually they all died off...
My guess is that the Champions didn't know of its exsistance and Rajaat would have had it warded so they wouldn't be able to located it.
Pretty radical concept but I can dig it
Excelent...for Eberron and its quasi technological approach to magic.
Furthermore, have the courtesy to address other people’s responses made prior to yours before crying "No ones addressed "X"" before expecting them to acknowledging yours.
Someone seems to have lost track of who said what and when. As I recall, you're the one that asked me why I thought it was inconsistent. Like anyone you're of course free to change the subject, but just because I engage one discussion does not oblige me to enter into a different one.
The reason I don't respond to Kal's statement about what he thinks is "canon" is that Kal said the other day (in a painfully similar discussion) that he takes it personally if I respond to one thing that he said without responding to everything that he said. Much as I like Kal, I do not have time to engage in discussion under those rules. If someone changes the subject, I have no obligation to follow.
why not direct that effort into suppling a reason as what Rajaat’s motives may have been.
Funny, just at 2:19 I said:
Maybe Rajaat's epic safeguards over the place needed renewing, or maybe it was a deadman's switch.
IPerhaps someone could come up with a rational and believable reason for that setup.
Fat chance.
In any event, given a choice between Abbey's version of the trolls and where the last trolls died, and the account suggested by Grave Circumstances, Will and I have chosen to go with Abbey. See RaFoaDK.
In any event, Hamanu forced the last trolls over the edge, plummeting down into the waters of a sea...which might have been Troll Grave Chasm before it turned to a swamp. A good way to explain the dreadful choice of a name for the swamp.
I mean, how in depth can a designer get when confined to a 5-8 page adventure format?
Exactly. Another good reason why we go with Abbey over a Dungeon adventure when they conflict.
I'm sure that the author intended to have huge amounts of detail and plot driven material but had to cut them out due to limited space.
Just a couple posts above, I said something similar to what I think you meant to say. But "plot-driven" is bad. That's why I referred to you to the CBV, which provides the best explanation I've seen, with Dark Sun examples too!
Fat chance.
In any event, Hamanu forced the last trolls over the edge, plummeting down into the waters of a sea...which might have been Troll Grave Chasm before it turned to a swamp. A good way to explain the dreadful choice of a name for the swamp.
Exactly. I showed you our Green Age map of the area. It also explains the salt flats to the north, in contrast to the desert -- the area north of what's now the Glowing Desert was an inland sea during the Green Age.
Now that doesn't entirely rule out the events of Grave Circumstances. The halflings had underwater cities, and the lizardmen are amphibious; there could still be ancient ruins down there and Rajaat could have kept his little gismo, etc. Rajaat having an underwater lab's a lot less far-fetched than the silly insta-dragon contraption existing in the first place.
The sheer number of spells laid out all together in such an illogical and relatively unsecured location is absurd, but that's not the point I was driving at.
Sysane responded:
I'd hardly call the bottom of the Troll Grave Chasm an unsecured location.
Nor did I. "relatively" means "in relation to," or in the light of the facts. Considering what was at stake (all arcane spells in the typical DS campaign plus an instant transformation into the most powerful character on the fragging planet) the bottom of the troll grave chasm was a relatively unsecured location.
Personally, I'd rather have someone not respond to my argument than to misstate it. Silence is nicer than a straw man.
]I indeed did read what you and Kal said, and none of it addresses what I said about Rajaat's MO of carefully selecting those who he makes powerful.
Please point out when you said "carefully selecting those who he makes powerful"? Closest I can find is this:
Leaving the choice to the first dude to come along and brave the minor traps, is absolutely inconsistent with how Rajaat did things. Not to mention that we're talking an even bigger power boost than the boost to Champion.
Which was pointed out that Rajaat may have had to leave the Troll Grave Chasm for unforseen circumstances tied to the Cleansing War.
Someone seems to have lost track of who said what and when. As I recall, you're the one that asked me why I thought it was inconsistent. Like anyone you're of course free to change the subject, but just because I engage one discussion does not oblige me to enter into a different one.
Please re-read the thread. I've responded to most is not all your posts directed to me.
The reason I don't respond to Kal's statement about what he thinks is "canon" is that Kal said the other day (in a painfully similar discussion) that he takes it personally if I respond to one thing that he said without responding to everything that he said. Much as I like Kal, I do not have time to engage in discussion under those rules. If someone changes the subject, I have no obligation to follow.
Its not that I take it personally, but before you blame others for not responding to a specific post of yours you should take into consideration of the post (or parts there of) that you haven't addressed yourself. Its down right hypocritical to say the least.
Funny, just at 2:19 I said
Yes, and I addressed that. What makes your one 16 word explanation more valid than what I or Kal have posted? I agree that it offers a small part of validating the adventure but is far from a full rectification .
Exactly. Another good reason why we go with Abbey over a Dungeon adventure when they conflict.
Your personal choice. I personally find the adventure more canon than Abbey's work.
Just a couple posts above, I said something similar to what I think you meant to say. But "plot-driven" is bad. That's why I referred to you to the CBV, which provides the best explanation I've seen, with Dark Sun examples too!
I said what I needed to say clear enough. So, because a non-DS source had specific exmaples tied to DS it has to be good? Maybe we should drag out the Planescape referances to DS and make them part of DS continuity as well. I mean c'mon! If its written in a TSR product how can it be wrong.
Its not that I take it personally, but before you blame others for not responding to a specific post of yours you should take into consideration of the post (or parts there of) that you haven't addressed yourself. Its down right hypocritical to say the least.
Again, I think you've confused who did what and when. I only brought up the fact that you hadn't responded to my argument as a polite response to your complaints that I had not responded to your arguments. Polite, since unlike you I pointed out your inconsistency without using personal attack words like "hypocrisy." It's likewise inconsistent for you to lecture me on "courtesy" while tossing the h-bomb around.
I said what I needed to say clear enough. So, because a non-DS source had specific exmaples tied to DS it has to be good? Maybe we should drag out the Planescape referances to DS and make them part of DS continuity as well. I mean c'mon! It written in a TSR product how can it be wrong.
Since I'm not the one who started lecturing about politeness, I'll admit that what you just said was the most foolish thing that I've ever seen on the boards. You think that the definitions of "plot-driven" and "character-driven" mean something else as applied to Dark Sun stories? Normally I'd say "think about it," but you seem to take that as a mortal insult, so I'll just give up.
Go ahead and take the last word, Sysane, this obviously has nothing to do with Dark Sun for you.
Nor did I. "relatively" means "in relation to," or in the light of the facts. Considering what was at stake (all arcane spells in the typical DS campaign plus an instant transformation into the most powerful character on the fragging planet) the bottom of the troll grave chasm was a relatively unsecured location.
Yet again, resorting to the splitting hairs tactic.
Personally, I'd rather have someone not respond to my argument than to misstate it. Silence is nicer than a straw man.
Throw out all the metaphors you want bro. You're so off base on this its not even remotely funny.
Again, I think you've confused who did what and when. I only brought up the fact that you hadn't responded to my argument as a polite response to your complaints that I had not responded to your arguments. Polite, since unlike you I pointed out your inconsistency without using personal attack words like "hypocrisy." It's likewise inconsistent for you to lecture me on "courtesy" while tossing the h-bomb around.
Go ahead and take the last word, Sysane, this obviously has nothing to do with Dark Sun for you.
Dude it's plain as the nose on you're face that you're being the H-bomb. I've responded to most of the content in your posts than you have mine by leaps and bounds.
And to say this has nothing to DS for me is absolute bunk and you know this. I've given you plenty of ways how to explain the inconsistaceies of the TGC which you hardly addressed and those that you did offered very liite insight on how to do so.
If this is about having the last word, by all means take it if that makes you feel that you've been receptive to the ideas presented here and have refuted them in a logical and reasonable manner. As far as I'm concerned (and I'm sure others can plainly see) you haven't.
As for me, I'm all set with your closed mindedness pretaining to this topic.
"Straw man" is a standard term of argument, like "splitting hairs."
So you think that I'm "splitting hairs" when I suggest that an artifact that will transform any silly wizard into the most powerful creature on Athas, deserves more security, than, say, a more conventional Dark Sun treasure? I'm surprised you'd say that. You don't have to understand "plot-driven" or "character-driven" to grasp that bigger treasures tend to be associated with bigger challenges.
Since I'm not the one who started lecturing about politeness, I'll admit that what you just said was the most foolish thing that I've ever seen on the boards. You think that the definitions of "plot-driven" and "character-driven" mean something else as applied to Dark Sun stories? Normally I'd say "think about it," but you seem to take that as a mortal insult, so I'll just give up.
Nice. This offers nothing to invalidating me. Dig deeper.
Basing an argument on the claim that Dungeon Magazine is "canon" and Lynne Abbey isn't "canon" is closed-minded.
Proving that you don't have a clue what "plot-driven" is, and then dismissing the idea because it was in an "old TSR book" that (like Dungeon Magazine #56) contained stories of other worlds as well as about Dark Sun, is closed-minded.
Calling someone "closed-minded" in order to dismiss their arguments, without identifying what they said that was "closed-minded," is closed-minded.
So you think that I'm "splitting hairs" when I suggest that an artifact that will transform any silly wizard into the most powerful creature on Athas, deserves more security, than, say, a more conventional Dark Sun treasure? I'm surprised you'd say that. You don't have to understand "plot-driven" or "character-driven" to grasp that bigger treasures tend to be associated with bigger challenges.
Treasures meant for an NPC to further the setting IF he meets with successes (i.e becoming a dragon) and a handful of spells for PCs who escape the sinking pyramid? Yeah, it rocks the foundations of the very setting.
Seriously, I’m done with this Brax. Consider yourself the “winner” on this debate if that make you feel better. I'm honestly getting heated over it and this hasn't been about the TGC for the past several posts.
Treasures meant for an NPC to further the setting IF he meets with successes (i.e becoming a dragon) and a handful of spells for PCs who escape the sinking pyramid? Yeah, it rocks the foundations of the very setting.
Just to remind anyone who is still reading what we're talking about, Sysane is defending a setup in a low to mid level adventure (~5-7th level, IIRC) where a character has the option of automatically transforming themselves into a full-blown 30th-level dragon. 
Seriously, I’m done with this Brax.
And there was much rejoicing.
Consider yourself the “winner” on this debate even if you and I know the reality of matter.
I'll do no such thing. This was never a "debate." You asked me for my opinion, I gave it to you, you humilliated yourself trying to change my mind without addressing or even grasping my essential argument (plot-driven v. character driven), and when I refused to change my mind, you started calling me names. Where I come from, we don't call that a "debate." And there are no winners.
I agree with Brax's assessment of the adventure, but you two have proven that it's possible to take it and polish it until it almost shines.
Still, an adventure that appeared in Dungeon is Canon?
Wow... I didn't realize canon was so losely defined.Just to remind anyone who is still reading what we're talking about, Sysane is defending a setup in a low to mid level adventure (~5-7th level, IIRC) where a character has the option of automatically transforming themselves into a full-blown 30th-level dragon. .
An NPC mind you.
You asked me for my opinion, I gave it to you, you humilliated yourself trying to change my mind without addressing or even grasping my essential argument (plot-driven v. character driven), and when I refused to change my mind, you started calling me names. Where I come from, we don't call that a "debate." And there are no winners.
Yes I "humilliated" myself. Please, thats far from the fact. As far as grasping what you said I understood it just fine. You tried to steer the discussion away from its original topic. As far as calling you names by stating that you were being hypocritical and close minded is far from being offensive. However, I'm sorry that you were sensitive to those comments .
But, seriously now that I have that out of my system. You two have to be some of the most skilled sh*t polishers I've ever seen (and I mean that as a compliment)!
I agree with Brax's assessment of the adventure, but you two have proven that it's possible to take it and polish it until it almost shines.
Still, an adventure that appeared in Dungeon is Canon?
Oddly enough the Chanth (sp?) found its why into ToA if I'm not mistaken?
Oddly enough the Chanth (sp?) found its why into ToA if I'm not mistaken?
So if one idea in a magazine article finds its way into canon, that means that everything in the magazine is canon?
Like I said, we used and validated just about everything in the adventure *other* than the ludicrous Troll Grave anticlimax. And we didn't even contradict that part.
As far as calling you names by stating that you were being hypocritical and close minded is far from being offensive. I'm sorry that you were sensitive to those comments.
Sysane, please do not use a dishonest apology to speculate about my motives while complaining about my manners. Where I come from, that combination of tactics is kind of like using the Lord's name in vain in the course of committing adultery with your father and mother while coveting your neighbor's wife's ass. Very bad mojo. That combination of tactics will not win you the respect that you clearly crave.
So if one idea in a magazine article finds its way into canon, that means that everything in the magazine is canon?
When you're picking and choosing what is and what isn't based on the source it sure does. TGC outside of a few holes was a good adventure and the pyramid had great potential if expanded on.
Sysane, please do not use a dishonest apology to speculate about my motives while complaining about my manners. Where I come from, that combination of tactics is kind of like using the Lord's name in vain in the course of committing adultery with your father and mother while coveting your neighbor's wife's ass. Very bad mojo. That combination of tactics will not win you the respect that you clearly crave
Just like that line? I don't crave your respect Brax. Its that I don't appreciated being undeservedly demeaned and condescended to for sharing my opinion and then have my intellect insulted when all I'm trying to do is better a game setting that we both feel passionate about.
The fact that I'm a person does not change the fact that my opinion is based on story principles. I explained these principles to you, but you didn't seem to get it, so I pointed you to a book, in case you were honestly interested.
We don't typically make decisions on what is "canon" and not "canon." When stories conflict, we look at which fact-set is more consistent with the accepted body of facts. When a Dungeon magazine article starts treating Rajaat as if he were Rary or Mordenkainen or the rest of that bunch, then we go with the source that's offering more consistent information on this point.
If you aren't craving my approval, then why don't you get off my leg about this? You don't need my approval to run your game as you see fit. What do you want, absolution? You keep parroting that my opinion is just "personal," whatever. Yes, I'm a person. I'm not pitching myself as anything else.
You were quick to shoot down other people's ideas and barely offered any of your own in reconciling the inconsistencies. When called on it you persisted on trying to paint me like I was some sort of idiot who had no notion of what he was talking about. Thats why I've stuck with this thread so long. Not to gain you're approval or repect, but to make myself heard and not have my ideas or responses misconstrued as you have tried to do. Its not absolution I seek but validation.
I don't appreciated being undeservedly demeaned and condescended to for sharing my opinion and then have my intellect insulted
You started the demeaning and namecalling here, and I believe this sentence is the first one where I've outright called you a hypocrite, even though you deserved it several posts above.
You were quick to shoot down other people's ideas and barely offered any of your own in reconciling the inconsistencies. When called on it you persisted on trying to paint me like I was some sort of idiot who had no notation of what he was talking about. Thats why I've stuck with this thread so long. Not to gain you're approval or repect, but to make myself heard and not have my ideas or responses misconstrued as you have tried to do.
OK, I'm calling your bluff. Quote and link to where I misconstrued anything that you said.
It took me three posts of reassurances, thankyous, and appolgies to get him to realize that I was being sincere. Actually, I don't know if he actually ever believed me, but that isn't really important, because I felt great about it and I've been a less frustrated person ever since.
Take this however you want to, I have no specific motive in posting it.
We don't typically make decisions on what is "canon" and not "canon." When stories conflict, we look at which fact-set is more consistent with the accepted body of facts. When a Dungeon magazine article starts treating Rajaat as if he were Rary or Mordenkainen or the rest of that bunch, then we go with the source that's offering more consistent information on this point.
I don't see where TGC was horribly inconsistent with rest of the setting. Outside of a few lose ends and behind the scene plot details it could easily be considered canon.
When a Dungeon magazine article starts treating Rajaat as if he were Rary or Mordenkainen or the rest of that bunch [of purposeless dungeon designers], then we go with the source that's offering more consistent information on this point.
I don't see where TGC was horribly inconsistent with rest of the setting.
[brax makes a pained face.]
I am not responsible for what you see and do not see, Sysane. I understand your arguments, but you've made clear that you don't even want to understand mine, since mine are based on design concepts that I discovered in an "old TSR book." Stalemate.
Outside of a few lose ends and behind the scene plot details it could easily be considered canon.
Only by someone who thinks that "canon" is an "open-minded" argument.
This is becoming reminiscent of my argument with Raven, which I still say I won when I realized how hung up on proving I was somehow better or right and dropped the whole thing.:D
It took me three posts of reassurances, thankyous, and appolgies to get him to realize that I was being sincere. Actually, I don't know if he actually ever believed me, but that isn't really important, because I felt great about it and I've been a less frustrated person ever since.
Take this however you want to, I have no specific motive in posting it.
You're right Sage.I can no longer stomach this. Its going nowhere.
Sorry for any misunderstandings I may have had towards your posts and responses Brax. Clearly I got to caught up in this. I've said what I've had to say. On to other and better topics.
Your personal choice. I personally find the adventure more canon than Abbey's work.
I got badgered once in a bookstore, by a guy who thought that the best SF out there was wormhole, laser, hero with secret past, vast starship type of stuff...which ain't bad in itself but he was adamant everything else was crap and so only sought out that particular type of SF, the type of SF found at the bottom of the shelf at the store, for good reasons.
He was crazy of course.
I said what I needed to say clear enough. So, because a non-DS source had specific exmaples tied to DS it has to be good? Maybe we should drag out the Planescape referances to DS and make them part of DS continuity as well. I mean c'mon! If its written in a TSR product how can it be wrong.
The DS examples in CBV are harmless character archetype analyses from the book's author(s) and specifically laid out as such. Opinions.
Planescape, Spelljammer, and Ravenloft all added to the DS setting in ways meant to be canon in the old 2E mentality concerning these things. AFAIK all such out-of-setting references are being disregarded by Athas.org...as should be, IMO, considering how those additions were often misguided in the very nature of what they added to the setting.
Still, an adventure that appeared in Dungeon is Canon?
Sage may have a point: What, exactly, do we know about precedents for allowing Dungeon adventures as canon material in any setting?
Have designer teams at WotC allowed events uniquely described in a Dungeon adventure, written by someone outside of said teams and without their final review, to be mentionned as canon in one of the books?
I.e. A whole city and its people were created by a Paizo-hired writter and then mentionned - NPCs included - in an FR book? Or...do analyses of that geographical region later published in an FR book make no mention of the city?
Oddly enough the Chanth (sp?) found its why into ToA if I'm not mistaken?
This is purely opinion on my part: The was nothing outlandish in the "Chanth" adventure. All cues were DS-flavored, all new elements were appropriately proportionned and flavored in relation to other already-published DS works. Even that adventure's take on Andropinis matched Denning's.
Rajaat leaving an instant-dragon device behind, for anyone to stumble upon? Nothing in that matches what Denning or the supplements describe of Rajaat and his intentions, methods, and goals.
As for the rest of the adventure...sidestepping the troll itself....it is very good.
We don't typically make decisions on what is "canon" and not "canon." When stories conflict, we look at which fact-set is more consistent with the accepted body of facts. When a Dungeon magazine article starts treating Rajaat as if he were Rary or Mordenkainen or the rest of that bunch, then we go with the source that's offering more consistent information on this point.
Ahh, yes, I seem to recall Jon once mentionning this to me. It is the sensible thing to do.
Even though the whole Ravenloft-Kalidnay angle cannot and should not be used doesn't mean that the name of the city's surrounding lands and the city's high templar - as described in the Ravenloft book - cannot be put to good use.
The DS examples in CBV are harmless character archetype analyses from the book's author(s) and specifically laid out as such. Opinions.
That's right. I wasn't citing it for DS facts, but for the adventure design theories that CBV distilled from the best Dark Sun and other quality 2e designs. More recent products in 3e and 3.5 have followed the CBV philosophy almost exclusively.
The was nothing outlandish in the "Chanth" adventure. All cues were DS-flavored, all new elements were appropriately proportionned and flavored in relation to other already-published DS works. Even that adventure's take on Andropinis matched Denning's.
Rajaat leaving an instant-dragon device behind, for anyone to stumble upon? Nothing in that matches what Denning or the supplements describe of Rajaat and his ententions, methods, and goals.
Nicely said, and an excellent illustration of what I said here:
We don't typically make decisions on what is "canon" and not "canon." When stories conflict, we look at which fact-set is more consistent with the accepted body of facts.
As for the rest of the adventure...sidestepping the troll itself....it is very good.
I strongly agree. We don't say something is good because it's canon. We say that it's canon because it's good.
@ Sysane: apology noted and appreciated.
@ Sysane: apology noted and appreciated.
Don't mention it, and hopefully no hard feelings.
We don't say something is good because it's canon. We say that it's canon because it's good.
Let me quote that.