1- The obvious, it was not selling enough. Not for lack of quality but because simply too few people bought into the setting
2- The magnitude: Planescape reaches across all of their campaign settings. When 3rd edition came out, they felt the need to keep each world self contained.
3- Other ventures: 3rd opened with a bang, and they needed to lighten the load on where they would place energies. Thus they kept the bestsellers FR and Greyhawk, waiting till they had paved the way for Eberron. Heck, they stopped publising new material even for Dragonlance and Ravenloft...
4- random cosmic disturbance: I miss planescape...
Thats my opinion anyway
Long live Planescape!!!
'least that;s my theory.
Also, if you were a psionicist and you went to Krynn, you got screwed over.
I loved Planescape. Of course, I preferred SpellJammer, but Planescape was fun because... hm... I guess Sigil itself. I mean, SJ was cool, and I always had a poor halfling in a red shirt get killed in some bad, bad way (and Yondolla will smite me for that) but with Planescape I could instantly throw a player into it.
Of course, when we had the Kender who worshipped Denier go to his own world, I think it went a little far...
Now that I think about it, I used hand-me-down 2e for that! 3e was already three years old! I could of used Manual of the Planes and avoided that whole mess! How foolish I was.
And yet---
SOrry, Yondalla smited me for ranting.
Main reason: Flavor. It mixed the soups of the campaign worlds, and made them all taste funny. That's my Tick-ism for the day.
1- The obvious, it was not selling enough. Not for lack of quality but because simply too few people bought into the setting
2- The magnitude: Planescape reaches across all of their campaign settings. When 3rd edition came out, they felt the need to keep each world self contained.
3- Other ventures: 3rd opened with a bang, and they needed to lighten the load on where they would place energies. Thus they kept the bestsellers FR and Greyhawk, waiting till they had paved the way for Eberron. Heck, they stopped publising new material even for Dragonlance and Ravenloft...
4- random cosmic disturbance: I miss planescape...
Long live Planescape!!!
Well, not selling enough is basically something I can hardly comprehend after the things I've seen from it. I've looked into the free downloadable FR pdf's which were also 2nd edition. Though I found some helpful tidbits of lore in there, I found them just feeling too old. They were all black and white, with old scarce art, and I didn't like the font. I expected the same from the planescape material. But the things I've seen could easily compete with the books from nowadays.
Your option number 4 seems the most probable one. :D
-Planescape is pretty cool. I, like many, would like it back. Third-Edition has certainly made things a bit difficult for Planescape to ever resurface. According to 3e, Faerûn has a different cosmology than Greyhawk. That would certainly make it a bit harder for Planescape to make a triumphant return.
Well, in a way yes. But I've never used the great tree. I stick to the wheel, which the manual of the planes quite decently portrayed. From the voices on the boards, it sounds like many people do the same thing, so I'm not sure if it would really be that big a problem.
Really, Planescape is more alive than Greyhawk is. Greyhawk has been folded into "core," too, but it's mostly limited to using proper nouns (place names, deities, and occasionally the names of wizard NPCs) with little context. Meanwhile Planescape materials are revisited in great detail in books like the Fiendish Codices, Manual of the Planes, and Planar Handbook.
I have the manual of the planes (great book), I've looked into fiendish codex I and the planar handbook. These latter seemed just ok at first glance. I was considering buying FCII if it looks good. Now that I've seen real planescape material though, I think I'm gonna just use the 30 ⁈ for FCII on 7 or so planescape books on rpgnow. I've only looked into the campaign setting, faces of sigil and one adventure. So far I regrettably have to say the art is better than that of the FC books. There's less flavourless crunch. (Nothing wrong with crunch. Not at all. But there's crunch, and then there's crunch for the sake of crunch) And it's written a bagillion times better.
The main problem was, while Planescape had a good flavor, it destroyed the flavor of other worlds.
Main reason: Flavor. It mixed the soups of the campaign worlds, and made them all taste funny. That's my Tick-ism for the day.
Hmm, I think I understand what you're saying. Was it so that the other settings had to abide with whatever happened in planescape that could possibly affect those settings?
Anyway, it seems that whilst reading more planescape and the replies in this thread, I made up my mind. There's a treasure worth of books downloadable from rpgnow and by the time I've read through those jewels, I won't need any 3rd (or by then 4th) edition books that aren't going to be able to compete with the older material anyway. I'll have to do a lot of stat adjusting though.
If only I had known....
It was more than a year ago that I came to this board asking for the 2nd best planescape book to buy (aside from the campaign setting). Too bad I never got past ordering, because my mom doesn't trust "buying online". (Hackers getting into your credit cards and such) I once had a friend make his parents place an order for me on Amazon. :D So it was only now, just one month prior to going to live together with my significant other, that I started considering having my own VISA-card. (last year I was still studying) So I searched for (illegally) downloadable planescape books to check if they were going to be worth buying. (I do that with all my D&D books ever since I bought Libris Mortis *shudders*) And were they!? For 4⁈ a book I'm ripping these people off! I'm not sure how long it takes to aquire a visa-card, but Planescape is going to monitor a peak in sales at that moment. :D Heh, who knows, the day afterwards some guy at wizards may come up saying:
"Hey boss, look how much rpgnow is still selling these old planescape books. Perhaps we should consider starting it anew under 3.5."
If only I had known they were this good, I'd have my friend order this stuff over a year ago, together with my Amazon order.
Thanks for the replies.
Well, in a way yes. But I've never used the great tree. I stick to the wheel, which the manual of the planes quite decently portrayed. From the voices on the boards, it sounds like many people do the same thing, so I'm not sure if it would really be that big a problem.
-I do the same thing. Extraplanar adventures don't come up too often though, when I am both playing and DMing. But, remember it is the "official" stuff that WotC cares about. Their "official" stuff kinda messes up the idea of 3e Planescape.
Now that I've seen real planescape material though, I think I'm gonna just use the 30 € for FCII on 7 or so planescape books on rpgnow.
That's probably the better choice.
Note that some of the later Planescape books (that were published by Wizards of the Coast instead of TSR) didn't have nearly the production standards as the earlier ones. They dropped the full-color art, and hired crappier artists. The writing is still excellent, though, and they're well worth picking up.
The early TSR ones were very lush and expensive to print. The line sold very well for a while (particularly the original boxed set, which was probably the best seller that year), but as time went on the expense of getting into the setting ($30 for each boxed set, five boxed sets) made people less likely to pick up the adventures and supplements.
While Wizards of the Coast published a number of great Planescape books, they eventually decided that the same books sold something like ten times better without the Planescape label on them. It seems people saw it as a campaign setting (with intimidating special jargon and so on), not a generic supplement for planar adventuring. While just about anyone could make use of A Guide to the Astral Plane, whether they were into Planescape or not, people who hadn't made the investment of the main setting box - or who didn't like the main setting - avoided it.
Was it so that the other settings had to abide with whatever happened in planescape that could possibly affect those settings?
No, there was nothing in Planescape that affected any other settings in any meaningful way. There are a few vocal Dragonlance fans who hate the idea that anyone would put their squeaky clean deities in a place where they could possibly interact with gods from other settings, but these are very stupid people who also smell bad.
There is no merit to alchemyprime's theory. It is a theory for nerds and should be punished with a wedgie.
There are a few vocal Dragonlance fans who hate the idea that anyone would put their squeaky clean deities in a place where they could possibly interact with gods from other settings, but these are very stupid people who also smell bad.
-Thanks for the warning. I'll make sure to never interact with these smelly, stinky people...;)
Well, not selling enough is basically something I can hardly comprehend after the things I've seen from it.
Quality isn't the only thing that matters. Remember that Planescape was a niche product in a niche market. It's like art-house cinema -- no matter how well-made it is, it'll never be a blockbuster. Adding to that is the problem that there's a limit to how many products any person can buy. For example, I like nearly all of TSR's old 2e settings, but the only ones I ever bought more than one or two supplements for were Planescape and Spelljammer. After TSR got bought out, I remember reading an article by one of the high-ups at WotC explaining why the company had nearly gone bankrupt. One of the main contributing factors was that they'd spread themselves too thin; when you're publishing a half dozen different series simultaneously, only a tiny fraction of your customers are going to buy any given product. That's why it's just not profitable to have your fingers in too many pies. Clearly WotC is trying to avoid the same mistake.
Wyvern
All I can say is that the PC game Planescape: Torment, is in my opinion the best D&D based video game ever.
-I was actually thinking about picking that up using some of my Channukah money. How good is it?
It's a great game. I've never finished it, due to technical reasons. I think I've gotten to the last quarter of the game (in Curst). So far the story was superb. I really can't spoil the fun by telling it. (if you not already know what it's about). What was very interesting game-mechanics wise, was how there were a lot of ways to earn xp in non-combat ways. I found the uses of stats interesting ex: wis let you learn faster, STR and DEX let you snap someones neck early in the game without having to fight him. (things like that).
I can't call myself an expert on planescape, but I heard say more than once, by the experts, that the game is very very true to the setting.
It was the first thing that sparked my curiosity into the setting. When I first played it I had already played baldur's gate and knew a bit about the forgotten realms. But it took a long time before I understood that Planescape was a campaign setting, and torment just took place in it.
EDIT: Oh yeah, and all women have big boobies in planescape torment. :P
EDIT: Oh yeah, and all women have big boobies in planescape torment. :P
-Don't all women in D&D?
I always wondered if they did all that on purpose, as sort of a joke maybe, or if the graphic designer thereof was just a perv.
-Don't all women in D&D?
Depends on the artist. Mialee, for example, is shown to be "small" and busty. The only consistent thing is that she's uglier than a medusa with a facial rash.
Depends on the artist. Mialee, for example, is shown to be "small" and busty. The only consistent thing is that she's uglier than a medusa with a facial rash.
-It's sad that the spokeswoman of Elves in core D&D is so ugly. Anyway, I guess she has the Enlarge spell memorized a few times, to adjust the size of her...equipment.
Of course, I could be wrong, but I'd hazard a guess that th stuff WotC puts out these days'd be similar cost if not higher.
Yeah, I loved the old Spelljammer, too.
I finally got my hands on some planescape material. Paging through the campaign setting and some other books, I could only say "wow". The artwork, the writing, the content, the detail, the whole feel of the thing! It's great. I don't understand why it never got to 3rd edition. Why hasn't wizards continued with the setting?
It wasn't WotC, it was TSR that discontinued the setting, along with all the other settings they were publishing at the time.
There was a long period where NOTHING was getting put out by TSR. Even Dragon Magazine wasn't being published for a while.
When WotC bought out TSR, they couldn't publish all the game worlds, as that's what got TSR into trouble. (In part, at least.)
It wasn't WotC, it was TSR that discontinued the setting, along with all the other settings they were publishing at the time.
There was a long period where NOTHING was getting put out by TSR. Even Dragon Magazine wasn't being published for a while.
When WotC bought out TSR, they couldn't publish all the game worlds, as that's what got TSR into trouble. (In part, at least.)
That much is accurate, but it's misleading. Wizards of the Coast did continue publishing Planescape products for several years after they bought TSR. Faces of Evil, Dead Gods, Planescape Monstrous Compendium Appendix III, A Guide to the Astral Plane, A Guide to the Ethereal Plane, The Inner Planes, Tales From the Infinite Staircase - all the latter half of the product line - were all published by Wizards of the Coast, even though they were written back in TSR days before the company shut down.
So yes, it was Wizards of the Coast who finally decided to discontinue the line.
Now, if you were talking about Birthright, then yes - it was TSR who ended it and WotC who simply decided not to bring it back. But Planescape enjoyed quite a bit of WotC support.
I could be wrong, but I believe the books were a heckuvalot more expensive to print - and considering the company wanted maximum profit from minimum cost (as all companies are obliged to do, and as usual subject to elasticities etc and ideal levels yada yada), they weren't that popular at the office.
The Planescape line used a larger set of dyes yes, and was more expensive to print versus other product lines. So regardless of total sales, they made proportionately less money per individual unit sold, which in the end wasn't exactly a selling point when product lines were being dropped (like Dark Sun) or consolidated (like Planescape being folded back into what would later be the 'core' product line).
The great tree - I don't think anyone uses it. I have a feeling it was Ed's original cosmology, but TSR felt it wouldn't work with theirs so they ignored it. Now that the spheres have been seperated again, WotC probably felt it was time to stir in a little of the originator's flava.
Planescape did not work with MOST D&D worlds - Ravenloft was still pretty in-excessable, you couldn't travel to Athas, and now Eberron is completely cut off much like Athas was or even the new FR cosmology.
I think Spelljammer messed with the existing worlds more so, and Planescape enhanced them. It was nice knowing what was beyond your existance in the land where gods dwell, even if you didn't use it. But dropping a spelljamming ship full of Tinker Gnomes or kender on a world was just cruel, not to mention a MAJOR economic screw-up.
Why would anyone bother to use the Golden Road in FR, if you could just fly over to Kara-Tur. Choclate from Maztica? Spices from Zahkara? Just a quick trip and you're there. If spelljamming exists, it would rule all the known worlds in no time. And why would ANYONE travel through space for weeks when all you have to do is create a portal?
Planescape was a much more level headed approach to interacting with other worlds. It also gave DMs like myself a wonderful excuse for borrowing cultures from other settings.... "There was this HUGE portal, see...." :D
Planescape was a much more level headed approach to interacting with other worlds. It also gave DMs like myself a wonderful excuse for borrowing cultures from other settings.... "There was this HUGE portal, see...." :D
Crashed 'jamming ship has the same effects ;)
Crashed 'jamming ship has the same effects ;)
I was thinking along the lines of finding an entire NATION of say, minotaurs, where there normally wouldn't be one (FR). It would take an AWFULLY big ship to accomplish that. But you are right for individuals a spelljammer would be just as convenient (as long as the ship was wrecked in the process).
ET phone home? ;) :D
If I recall correctly, Planescape ended with two setting-altering adventures: Faction War and Squaring the Circle (the last one is debatable). It made sense to discontinue the setting after that. What I don't know, is if they decided to discontinue the setting or the publish the adventure first.
Squaring the Circle was published well before the end of the product line, and it's referenced later in non-Planescape products actually.
Faction War as well wasn't the last product in the line, and there was originally an intention to have it be about a third of later setting metaplot. However it does appear that they knew the line would be cancelled before FW saw print, because material that was originally developed for a 'City of Doors' box set was folded into the first section of Faction War (according to Monte Cook). While there were products produced after FW saw print, I can't speak of when they were written in terms of the product development timetable, and if they knew at the time the line would be dropped as a discrete entity.
Squaring the Circle was published well before the end of the product line, and it's referenced later in non-Planescape products actually.
Faction War as well wasn't the last product in the line, and there was originally an intention to have it be about a third of later setting metaplot. However it does appear that they knew the line would be cancelled before FW saw print, because material that was originally developed for a 'City of Doors' box set was folded into the first section of Faction War (according to Monte Cook). While there were products produced after FW saw print, I can't speak of when they were written in terms of the product development timetable, and if they knew at the time the line would be dropped as a discrete entity.
I know Tales from the Infinite Staircase and The Inner Planes were post-FW, but I don't recall if they explicitly mention the fallout from Faction War or not, as neither of them really deal with Sigil at all.
I know Tales from the Infinite Staircase and The Inner Planes were post-FW, but I don't recall if they explicitly mention the fallout from Faction War or not, as neither of them really deal with Sigil at all.
Can't recall on TftIS, but The Inner Planes definitly takes FW's events into account (from the top of my head: a resident of the plane of Magma who still seems to fancy himself an Indep despite knowing that officially the faction no longer exists, relocating Komosahl Trevant to becoming the leader of the (still-faction?) Dustmen at the Fortress of the Soul, and so on), whether it originally meant to or not.
The great tree - I don't think anyone uses it. I have a feeling it was Ed's original cosmology
No, Ed Greenwood used (and, in fact, did some crucial early development on) the Great Wheel. In fact, the Great Tree directly contradicts some of the precepts Ed used when he was setting up his cosmology - he intended for each plane or planar layer to be ruled by only one Forgotten Realms deity, as Lolth ruled the 66th layer of the Abyss. And he rejected the idea that "pantheons" existed in the Forgotten Realms (although they were introduced when TSR bought the setting).
The Great Tree was created by Sean K. Reynolds for 3rd edition, and has most planes ruled by a pantheon or group of deities.
I don't know how Ed Greenwood feels about the Great Tree, but he's on record saying that certain Great Wheel planes still have connections to Toril - for example, Limbo and the River Styx. I think he felt the loss of Limbo most keenly.
If spelljamming exists, it would rule all the known worlds in no time.
Spelljamming is limited by the fact that only the Arcane (mercanes) know how to make spelljamming helms, so it's only as prevalent as the Arcane want it to be. Of course, that could be watered down to some extent in Spelljammer materials, if you decide that things like dwarven forge helms and neogi lifejammers can be created without the Arcane. If the Arcane are responsible for all of it, that provides a reason why there are only a few hundred spelljammers in Realmspace, and why only an elite few people on Toril know about them. As for why the Arcane don't want to sell more helms, maybe they can't, or maybe they don't fully trust their new clients with the technology.
But I agree that Planescape fits with the various campaign worlds much more smoothly.
it is even nearly completely updated to 3.5.
www.planewalker.com
It wasn't WotC, it was TSR that discontinued the setting, along with all the other settings they were publishing at the time.
There was a long period where NOTHING was getting put out by TSR. Even Dragon Magazine wasn't being published for a while.
When WotC bought out TSR, they couldn't publish all the game worlds, as that's what got TSR into trouble. (In part, at least.)
No. Sorry but no. Planescape was still being released by WOTC after the buy out. It is when I got most of my material and Dead Gods was after the buy out and Faction War. And all the game worlds isn't what got TSR in trouble, it was not listening to their customers and mismanagement. That is a Ryan Danceyism and is so counter to what the rest of the industry has found to be a successful model its sick. Tell White Wolf that multiple setting books for the same game is a bad thing or Steve Jackson or Hero Games.
The 3rd Edition Raveloft is a bigger waste of paper than the 3.0 Psionics handbook. (Thats 3.0, not the Expanded)
Planescape on the other hand does'nt need to be it's own seperate setting since it was a backdrop from any setting. By Merging it's elements into core I think it will see more use than it did as a seperate setting.
Planescape on the other hand does'nt need to be it's own seperate setting since it was a backdrop from any setting. By Merging it's elements into core I think it will see more use than it did as a seperate setting.
Exactly my point from earlier. The fans will continue to find ways of playing it, and as for the rest of us we have the bits and drabs that are fed to us through the sourcebooks. For most campaigns that is all we need.
Ravenloft rocked! They had Sith Lords before George Lucas ever thought of them.
Hey... I wonder if WotC can sue him, since they own the intellectual rights...
Exactly my point from earlier. The fans will continue to find ways of playing it, and as for the rest of us we have the bits and drabs that are fed to us through the sourcebooks. For most campaigns that is all we need.
Ravenloft rocked! They had Sith Lords before George Lucas ever thought of them.
Hey... I wonder if WotC can sue him, since they own the intellectual rights...
WTF are you talking about? Ravenloft came out in 1980 something.
Ravenloft rocked! They had Sith Lords before George Lucas ever thought of them.
Hey... I wonder if WotC can sue him, since they own the intellectual rights...
Dude... The Shadow Rift is copyright 1997.
Dude... The Shadow Rift is copyright 1997.
and The Phantom Menace came out in 1999.
and The Phantom Menace came out in 1999.
There were Star Wars movies before that one. And Darth Vader has always been referred to as the Dark Lord of the Sith.