Gem of the Flanneass - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Gem of the Flanneass

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
OleOneEye
Dec 18, 2006 0:23:36 The map of Greyhawk has always seemed to small to house some 50-60 thousand inhabitants, seeming more like a city of perhaps 10 thousand at most. I am curious of the opinion that others may have. Is there a way to rationalize fitting everyone inside the walls?
#2
ivid
Dec 18, 2006 2:48:34 This is right. ;)
#3
extempus
Dec 18, 2006 2:54:23 Perhaps everyone does not live within the walls. Shack Town and Far Bank combined must house several thousand people, and, if the city's population of 69,500 in 590 CY (The Adventure Begins, p. 68) considers those within the "near domain" also (a radius of some 9-10 miles around Greyhawk, p. 74), then there are "a number of hamlets and farms" that must make up the rest of the population. There are also Rhennee bargefolk who obviously live in their barges, so that will account for quite a few as well.

Since my campaign takes place in 601 CY, I figure Greyhawk's population is approximately 75,000...
#4
max_writer
Dec 18, 2006 14:47:54 Don't forget refugees from the Wild Coast and Shield Lands.
#5
erik_mona
Dec 18, 2006 20:51:30 The map we put in Living Greyhawk Journal #2 partly addresses this problem by adding a crapload of buildings. If you can track down a copy, you'll probably be happier with it than with the one from the boxed set.

--Erik
#6
OleOneEye
Dec 18, 2006 22:54:30 The Greyhawk Journals are some of the few things I haven't got. This may be a reason to find one.
#7
thanael
Dec 19, 2006 8:41:24 I think that map is also available on Maldin's site:

http://melkot.com/locations/cogh/cogh.html
#8
zombiegleemax
Dec 19, 2006 12:09:07 Let's not forget the very nature of urban dwellings. Those buildings you see aren't just single story one family ranch homes down there. I'd bet most of the buildings (especially in the poorer parts of town) are at least two or three stories and packed full of people, kind of like an apartment building. They look to be a decent size too. What my friends and I always struggled with was an accurrate scale for the map. We tried taking a measurement of the Processional based on a line of text in the description of at as being xx? feet wide. Using that for scale revealed some huge structures down there.
#9
Yeoman
Dec 19, 2006 15:31:21 I was seriously disappointed in the Greyhawk City boxed set for many of these reasons - the scale was never clear and the picture which accompanied the set did not show a city of its supposed size. I also felt that it did not capture the atmosphere of the Gord novels, felt too spacious etc.

Unfortunately I have never got hold of a copy of the journal that may address some of the problems. I wonder if Paizo would consider putting a PDF for sale of these copies (if they are not already)..

In short I can only suggest doing what I did, if you cannot access a copy of the journal, and redesign the interior of the city more to your liking, that can fit the population mentioned. If you like the locales they can be slotted in anywhere you chose.
#10
extempus
Dec 19, 2006 18:35:13 Considering there has to be penniless refugees from both wars as well, there are undoubtedly lots of people living on the streets of Greyhawk (and not just over in Far Bank), sleeping in alleys and so on. Granted, it's a fantasy setting, but there has been an effort to make it as realistic as possible (to a certain extent anyway), so it's ludicrous to assume that homelessness is a purely 21st Century problem. It's been a problem all over this planet for millennia, and undoubtedly exists in the Flanaess as well... this would account for who knows how many thousands living not just within Greyhawk proper, but also in Shack Town and the various hamlets within the near domain...
#11
OleOneEye
Dec 19, 2006 23:16:09 Thank you for the link Thanael. That map is far better done than the original.
#12
chatdemon
Dec 21, 2006 14:11:04
In short I can only suggest doing what I did, if you cannot access a copy of the journal, and redesign the interior of the city more to your liking, that can fit the population mentioned. If you like the locales they can be slotted in anywhere you chose.

Be sure and check out the link to Maldin's Greyhawk site that was posted a bit back in the thread. That is the map from LGJ you are looking for. Denis/Maldin also has a few apocryphal GH city locations detailed there, as well as an accompanying map of the city sewer system that was not included in the magazine.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 OleOneEye Dec 18, 2006 0:23:36	The map of Greyhawk has always seemed to small to house some 50-60 thousand inhabitants, seeming more like a city of perhaps 10 thousand at most. I am curious of the opinion that others may have. Is there a way to rationalize fitting everyone inside the walls?
#2 ivid Dec 18, 2006 2:48:34	This is right. ;)
#3 extempus Dec 18, 2006 2:54:23	Perhaps everyone does not live within the walls. Shack Town and Far Bank combined must house several thousand people, and, if the city's population of 69,500 in 590 CY (The Adventure Begins, p. 68) considers those within the "near domain" also (a radius of some 9-10 miles around Greyhawk, p. 74), then there are "a number of hamlets and farms" that must make up the rest of the population. There are also Rhennee bargefolk who obviously live in their barges, so that will account for quite a few as well. Since my campaign takes place in 601 CY, I figure Greyhawk's population is approximately 75,000...
#4 max_writer Dec 18, 2006 14:47:54	Don't forget refugees from the Wild Coast and Shield Lands.
#5 erik_mona Dec 18, 2006 20:51:30	The map we put in Living Greyhawk Journal #2 partly addresses this problem by adding a crapload of buildings. If you can track down a copy, you'll probably be happier with it than with the one from the boxed set. --Erik
#6 OleOneEye Dec 18, 2006 22:54:30	The Greyhawk Journals are some of the few things I haven't got. This may be a reason to find one.
#7 thanael Dec 19, 2006 8:41:24	I think that map is also available on Maldin's site: http://melkot.com/locations/cogh/cogh.html
#8 zombiegleemax Dec 19, 2006 12:09:07	Let's not forget the very nature of urban dwellings. Those buildings you see aren't just single story one family ranch homes down there. I'd bet most of the buildings (especially in the poorer parts of town) are at least two or three stories and packed full of people, kind of like an apartment building. They look to be a decent size too. What my friends and I always struggled with was an accurrate scale for the map. We tried taking a measurement of the Processional based on a line of text in the description of at as being xx? feet wide. Using that for scale revealed some huge structures down there.
#9 Yeoman Dec 19, 2006 15:31:21	I was seriously disappointed in the Greyhawk City boxed set for many of these reasons - the scale was never clear and the picture which accompanied the set did not show a city of its supposed size. I also felt that it did not capture the atmosphere of the Gord novels, felt too spacious etc. Unfortunately I have never got hold of a copy of the journal that may address some of the problems. I wonder if Paizo would consider putting a PDF for sale of these copies (if they are not already).. In short I can only suggest doing what I did, if you cannot access a copy of the journal, and redesign the interior of the city more to your liking, that can fit the population mentioned. If you like the locales they can be slotted in anywhere you chose.
#10 extempus Dec 19, 2006 18:35:13	Considering there has to be penniless refugees from both wars as well, there are undoubtedly lots of people living on the streets of Greyhawk (and not just over in Far Bank), sleeping in alleys and so on. Granted, it's a fantasy setting, but there has been an effort to make it as realistic as possible (to a certain extent anyway), so it's ludicrous to assume that homelessness is a purely 21st Century problem. It's been a problem all over this planet for millennia, and undoubtedly exists in the Flanaess as well... this would account for who knows how many thousands living not just within Greyhawk proper, but also in Shack Town and the various hamlets within the near domain...
#11 OleOneEye Dec 19, 2006 23:16:09	Thank you for the link Thanael. That map is far better done than the original.
#12 chatdemon Dec 21, 2006 14:11:04	In short I can only suggest doing what I did, if you cannot access a copy of the journal, and redesign the interior of the city more to your liking, that can fit the population mentioned. If you like the locales they can be slotted in anywhere you chose. Be sure and check out the link to Maldin's Greyhawk site that was posted a bit back in the thread. That is the map from LGJ you are looking for. Denis/Maldin also has a few apocryphal GH city locations detailed there, as well as an accompanying map of the city sewer system that was not included in the magazine.