Littonia is pretty much in the bag - Old Dawg is reviewing the draft as we speak, and it should be ready for distribution before too much longer. Given that there was simply too much to cover for two entire nations to adequately address in a single book, it has been decided to split the project into two. As a result, Kaarjala's release will be delayed for a few more months, but this will provide time to start a thread to hear from people, as to what they would be interested in seeing.
To start things off, I'll put down a few of my own ideas - please note that these could very well change as time passes:
- Two peoples: Saamari (M-Finns) and Vaarana (M-Sami/Lapps) - very few minorities
- very few conventional demihumans
- Ilmarinen's Great Saampo is what makes the land habitable
- local threats could include Frosthaven, quariks, other ancient evils of the north
- struggles between the two groups (traditional/rural vs. townsfolk) as one motif for a campaign
- struggles between king and nobles (factions)
- could use other underutilised races (e.g., cryions)
- possible unique classes include specialised spellcasting (i.e., Vaarana might use a more "primal/natural" magic; or spells could focus more on the balance between fire and ice)
- other class could be a sort of northern ranger (i.e., posses neat abilities and ride special breed of reindeer, etc.) - yes, I'm channeling Princess Mononoke a bit here :P
Note: As this work will mesh with what has already been released under the Gaz F line, this version of Kaarjala will differ from others. This means that there will be no connection with Taymor, vampires, or nosferatu, and the history will be modified appropriately.
I am also interested in knowing whether anyone would be interested in collaborating on this project. I would credit co-authors accordingly.
Nnn... nnn...nnnooo connection to Taymor?
Mah baby must grow up on its own, ah guess... :D
*gives Mystaros a beer*
It was one of those requirements "from on high", as it were.
But in all seriousness, even though this version of Kaarjala may not be completely faithful to your vision, I'd still love to hear your insights and ideas.
Geoff
It was one of those requirements "from on high", as it were.
Yes, I'm afraid I'm the villan here. :embarrass
No criticism of Mystaros' vision of Taymor was intended. The decision to sever the connection was part of creating a unified backstory for the gaz's concerning population and glacial migrations, and political and cultural developments. A vast, necromantic Taymoran Empire carried with it too many implications to properly integrate into the Gaz F world.
Geoff and I discussed the propriety of revisioning James's creation given the importance of Taymor in his collective works. We also weighed the Italian MMB solution about renaming the area out right. In the end, it just didn't seem right to divorce the region from the RW history of the Mystara fan community and deny a tip of the hat to James.
So here we stand, Kaarjala sans Taymor.
Disgruntled fans may whip with wet-noodles now
Of course, a few years from now, someone will come along and say "I'd really like to use the Western Alliance, but I don't want all that Thyatian colonization stuff," and subsequently put out his or her "Gaz J4 Western Alliance: Lost Outpost of Blackmoor".
-OldDawg
:embarrass
What I do know is that I am a big fan of James' work, especially on Blackmoor, but also on Taymora. However, how problematic would it be to use James Taymoran history as concerns the Known World with the Kaarjala gaz?
Havard
I see no problem with folks running with it however they want; there are plenty of other ways to derive Lovaara and Pojaara, or a similar danger, for the northern lands...
Geoff
What I do know is that I am a big fan of James' work, especially on Blackmoor, but also on Taymora. However, how problematic would it be to use James Taymoran history as concerns the Known World with the Kaarjala gaz?
Old Dawg can correct me if I’m wrong, but my understanding is that he felt that Taymor, as envisioned by James, was a powerful realm that produced several offshoots and/or colonies, whose impacts could be more strongly felt in the AC 1000 period.
It was a difficult decision, as doing so effectively requires me to rewrite several key elements of Kaarjala's history. The overall "feel" of the country should be the same, however.
Geoff
Geoff
I'm just bumping this so it doesn't get lost in the shuffle, but I'd also like to know if there are any plot elements introduced in the Littonia Gazetteer that people would like to see expanded on in Kaarjala.
Will the Kaarjala realm be moved as with Littonia? I like the Amber mages and the magic of the land. This central theme to the Norwold region should also be included somehow in the Kaarjala gaz IMO. I would also like to see more references to the Frost Giants. Not sure if that fits though.
And more Geoff Gander city/local maps!
Lesse... the Kaarjala are based on Fins or was it on the Same people (Lapps)? Or both?
Could there be connections to the elven realms as well?
Sorry about lack of feedback on the Littonia gaz so far. It's on my to-do list!
Havard
Kaarjala seems to refer to Karelia which is a province of Finland but there is something wrong with the naming. It should be Karjala not Kaarjala and the people is karjalaiset (=The Karelians). Karjala is also a separate language related to Finnish.
Also I'm not sure what the Saamari should be referring to but the word in itself is a word used for cursing in Finnish. If you would like to be referring to the Finns and use Finnish term it should be Suomi (=Finland) or suomalaiset (The Finns). In Finnish the people of Lapland are called saamelaiset (=The Sami).
Saampo has been obviously taken from the Finnish legend Kalevala but again the naming is wrong. The item created byt the Ilmarinen is called Sampo.
Will the Kaarjala realm be moved as with Littonia? I like the Amber mages and the magic of the land. This central theme to the Norwold region should also be included somehow in the Kaarjala gaz IMO. I would also like to see more references to the Frost Giants. Not sure if that fits though.
It certainly can fit - I know Old Dawg had plans to do something brief for Frosthaven (more of an adventuring supplement, but you never know what else might be in there). The frost giants figure in Kaarjala's history, too, as the kingdom (which will not be moved) lies in the way of any southward migration.
And more Geoff Gander city/local maps!
Those are in the works, too.
Lesse... the Kaarjala are based on Fins or was it on the Same people (Lapps)? Or both?
Like Littonia, Kaarjala has two main populations: the Saamari, who are based on Finns, and the Vaarana, who are based on Sami/Lapps. Centuries of separation have made the two peoples quite different, but they get along a little more harmoniously that do the Litoniesu and Lietuvans.
Could there be connections to the elven realms as well?
I've been toying with the idea, as I'd like there to be some kind of nonhuman element to the realm. Hopefully, community feedback will help in this area!
Geoff
Kaarjala seems to refer to Karelia which is a province of Finland but there is something wrong with the naming. It should be Karjala not Kaarjala and the people is karjalaiset (=The Karelians). Karjala is also a separate language related to Finnish.
Now that's interesting! I don't know which sources were consulted when Kaarjala was originally created, but having input like this would certainly help. That's one reason why I wanted to post the creation thread here, because I know we have some Finns in this group, and I want the finished product to be close enough to reality to be believable.
Does Vaarana mean anything in Finnish?
Also I'm not sure what the Saamari should be referring to but the word in itself is a word used for cursing in Finnish. If you would like to be referring to the Finns and use Finnish term it should be Suomi (=Finland) or suomalaiset (The Finns). In Finnish the people of Lapland are called saamelaiset (=The Sami).
OK, karjalaiset could be used instead of Saamari - do you know what the Sami call themselves?
Geoff
OK, karjalaiset could be used instead of Saamari - do you know what the Sami call themselves?
I think they use Sami, though I don't speak the language myself. "Lapps" is definately not politically correct around over here.
The land of the Sami is referred to as SÁPMI, covering northern Norway, Sweden and Finland.
If you can find the Norwegian movie "Pathfinder" (Ofelas) http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0093668/ it should provide some good inspiration for the Saamari. It received an oscar for best forreign film when it came out so it might be possible to get it where you are.
If you are interested, I might be able to come up with some other ideas for these guys.
Havard
Now that's interesting! I don't know which sources were consulted when Kaarjala was originally created, but having input like this would certainly help. That's one reason why I wanted to post the creation thread here, because I know we have some Finns in this group, and I want the finished product to be close enough to reality to be believable.
Nice to to see that I got your attention.
Actually there is quite good information of Sami, Finnish, Karelian languages in the Wikipedia and as I just read it through I didn't see any big mistakes in hte english version. I suggest using it as a reference.Does Vaarana mean anything in Finnish?
The word as a whole doesn't mean anything. Vaara = danger/hazard but it also refers to a certain kind of forested hill. The word above has a Finnish sound but we usually form names of the places by adding -la to the end of the base word. e.g. Vaarala
EDIT: Just noticed that Vaarana was not going to be a name of a place but a class. If you are thinking of primitve spellcaster I'd use word noita. That is literally a witch.
OK, karjalaiset could be used instead of Saamari - do you know what the Sami call themselves?
The Sami call themselves Sámit in plural and Sámi in singular. The pronunciation though sounds like it has two a:s. Therefore Saamari is quite near and if you'd use Saami instead of Saamari it would sound more right.
In using karjalaiset there are some problems as Finnish language use lots of inflections that are not familiar to English speaking people. E.g. Karjala is the base, karjalainen refers to a Karelian and karjalaiset is the plural. So in English it should be Karjala-n but that would be a genitive of Karjala in Finnish.
Actually in our own campaign we have translated the Norwold to Pohjola which means about "land of the North" and Pohjola is also a place in Finnish mythology.
This would be an ideal place to make some use of the Athruagin immortals. Although Native American and Sami cultures are vastly different, it seems appropriate that especially the patron of the Elk and Bear tribes would be worshipped among the Samaari. The Norse Immortals could also be present here.
Havard
Here is one idea of the Samaari:
This would be an ideal place to make some use of the Athruagin immortals. Although Native American and Sami cultures are vastly different, it seems appropriate that especially the patron of the Elk and Bear tribes would be worshipped among the Samaari. The Norse Immortals could also be present here.
Havard
Here are some famous heros, and gods from the Finnish mythology.These could be just new names for the current Immortals.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_mythology#Heroes.2C_gods_and_spirits
As you can see some of those have allready been used by TSR in other products (Mielikki and Loviatar)
Here are some famous heros, and gods from the Finnish mythology.These could be just new names for the current Immortals.
Thanks for this! My inclination is to use existing Immortals and give them local names, rather than introduce a whole host of new Immortals who require tons of descriptions. This was what I did for Littonia and it seemed to work out well.
The info should be very useful.
Geoff
This would be an ideal place to make some use of the Athruagin immortals
Great idea, Havard! The Atruaghin pantheon always seemed (to me) to get short shrift in a lot of ways - in terms of their having limited application elsewhere.
This also fits in with my current idea of the Samaari being very close to the earth (i.e., more likely to practice shamanism, etc.)
Geoff
Nice to to see that I got your attention.
Thanks - I've pulled some info off of Wikipedia already to flesh out the section on social classes, and I've already pulled some material off of a Sami cultural site on their language, but everything helps.
I noticed that Vaarana was not going to be a name of a place but a class. If you are thinking of primitve spellcaster I'd use word noita. That is literally a witch.
Sounds like we have a proper name for the proposed new character class unique to the region.
In using karjalaiset there are some problems as Finnish language use lots of inflections that are not familiar to English speaking people. E.g. Karjala is the base, karjalainen refers to a Karelian and karjalaiset is the plural. So in English it should be Karjala-n but that would be a genitive of Karjala in Finnish.
There's a similar problem with Latvian and Lithuanian (both are inflected languages). Had it not been for several years of studying German with its cases, I might have been totally lost!
But you're right. I'll probably use the same approach as I did with the Littonia Gaz - mention the proper names for the ethnic groups once or twice, and afterwards refer to them in English (with a brief note to explain that it's done for simplicity's sake).
Actually in our own campaign we have translated the Norwold to Pohjola which means about "land of the North" and Pohjola is also a place in Finnish mythology.
The Karjalans can refer to Norwold as Pohjola, then.
Geoff
Changing any of the names to fit real Finnish/Suomi name structures would be like changing "Thyatis" to "Byzantium" and "Ylaruam" to "Mecca."
Once I get home from work I can dig up my notes and give a better run-down of what is what, but from memory:
Saamari = M-Finns
Kaarjala = Land of the Saamari
Vaarana = M-Sami
Pojaara = M-Pohjola
Lovaara = M-Lovitar/Louhi, combined (sometimes she's beautiful, other times a crone, but always cruel and evil)
Hiisii = Trolls and similar monsters of northern sort
Great idea, Havard! The Atruaghin pantheon always seemed (to me) to get short shrift in a lot of ways - in terms of their having limited application elsewhere.
This also fits in with my current idea of the Samaari being very close to the earth (i.e., more likely to practice shamanism, etc.)
Geoff
In my opinion The Sami or the people that would be derived from the real world Sami should be using shamanism. That would relate quite well the their culture.
But a speciality of the Finnish folklore is that there are great heroes who are good singers using a special Finnish zither to create powerfull spells. Especially Väinämöinen who made the zither out of the jawbone of giant norhthern pike. Those heroes should be handled like warrior-bards.
Running off the cuff here, as I haven't done much with Kaarjala since I first developed it... the names are all fractured Finnish, taken from various sources here and there, in order to give the land a Finnish feel, but not be exactly the same as Finland.
Changing any of the names to fit real Finnish/Suomi name structures would be like changing "Thyatis" to "Byzantium" and "Ylaruam" to "Mecca."
Once I get home from work I can dig up my notes and give a better run-down of what is what, but from memory:
Saamari = M-Finns
Kaarjala = Land of the Saamari
Vaarana = M-Sami
Pojaara = M-Pohjola
Lovaara = M-Lovitar/Louhi, combined (sometimes she's beautiful, other times a crone, but always cruel and evil)
Hiisii = Trolls and similar monsters of northern sort
I undestand that meaning is to create entirely new names that are not copied real word places or names but to have a similar feel to them. But that was just what caught my eye in this thread. Those above are somewhat familiar (Kaarjala, Hiisii) but not quite right. There seems to be too many vowels in the syllables or something in order for those names above to have the correct feel. E.g. Hiisi/Hiisii, Karjala/Kaarjala. It is hard to explain what I'm after here.
In my opinion The Sami or the people that would be derived from the real world Sami should be using shamanism. That would relate quite well the their culture.
Definately. Shamans should be a central part of the gaz. Not sure which shaman class should be used (There should have been only one...), using both would probably be in line with previous F Gazetteers.
Spirits from the Ethengar gaz are also appropriate IMO.
One thing that could set the M-Sami Shamans apart from other Shamans is the usage of the Rune Drum.
But a speciality of the Finnish folklore is that there are great heroes who are good singers using a special Finnish zither to create powerfull spells. Especially Väinämöinen who made the zither out of the jawbone of giant norhthern pike. Those heroes should be handled like warrior-bards.
Sounds interesting. Could the Bard class from Drm be used here?
Havard
Sounds interesting. Could the Bard class from Drm be used here?
Or we could use this as an opportunity to introduce the Bard class Marco, Carl, and I put together a while back - or some modification of it. The notion of spell songs would fit quite well, IMO.
Geoff
Or we could use this as an opportunity to introduce the Bard class Marco, Carl, and I put together a while back - or some modification of it. The notion of spell songs would fit quite well, IMO.
I can't remember what that one was like, but it sounds interesting. How about calling it something other than bard, say warrior poet, so as not to confuse the two? sounds like a class that would also be available on the Isle of Dawn.
The Gaz needs some new player's options so this could be part of that
Havard
I can't remember what that one was like, but it sounds interesting. How about calling it something other than bard, say warrior poet, so as not to confuse the two?
That would probably be best. Too bad Skald is already taken! ;) Using an online English-Finnish dictionary, I got the following (Dorfar - please let me know if these are even remotely accurate):
bard=runoilija
poet=runoilija
storyteller=sadunkertoja or tarinoitsija
Obviously there must be a subtle difference in meaning between the latter two, that English doesn't. I had been thinking of a class title like "blade singer" (vaguely reminiscent of Warhammer FRP, and it refers a little to sword singers of the Known World but neat, IMO).
Geoff
This would be an ideal place to make some use of the Athruagin immortals. Although Native American and Sami cultures are vastly different, it seems appropriate that especially the patron of the Elk and Bear tribes would be worshipped among the Samaari. The Norse Immortals could also be present here.
Immortals are being introduced as necessary for the greater story of the region, but I have been excising or modifying those that seem forced or unnaturally arising. The Atruaghin petty Immortals would have no cause to be interested in Norwold, and they "achieved" Immortality long after whatever last common cultural experience there was between the groups.
A modified Norse pantheon could filter into the region via contact (thus explaining Perkon/Thor in Littonia), but we really need to look at the ancient history of the two people to see what they would have inherited.
The role of giants and dragons in the north will slowly play out, leading up to the Wyrmsteeth, Icereach and Frosthaven. I think I'll open up a new thread for this particular idea.
-OldDawg
Immortals are being introduced as necessary for the greater story of the region, but I have been excising or modifying those that seem forced or unnaturally arising. The Atruaghin petty Immortals would have no cause to be interested in Norwold, and they "achieved" Immortality long after whatever last common cultural experience there was between the groups.
Would there really have to be a cultural connection for Immortals to be present? The idea was basically a possibility to extend the Athruagin Immortals to other "nature peoples" as it were. It hardly makes sense that they would be interested in only the tiny little region of Athruagin. Since there were RW Sami Bear cults (and most likely Reindeer cults -Elk) I came up with that. It's not a big deal though.
A modified Norse pantheon could filter into the region via contact (thus explaining Perkon/Thor in Littonia), but we really need to look at the ancient history of the two people to see what they would have inherited.
Just going with the R/W parallell, there was a lot of contact between Norse and Sami people, as well as Norse and Baltic cultures. It doesn't mean it will have to apply to Mystara ofcourse. OTOH, I suspect the people of the Northern Reaches have been raiding both up and down along the eastern coast of Brun to have made a cultural impact in quite a few places.
The role of giants and dragons in the north will slowly play out, leading up to the Wyrmsteeth, Icereach and Frosthaven. I think I'll open up a new thread for this particular idea.
Cool
Havard
That would probably be best. Too bad Skald is already taken! ;) Using an online English-Finnish dictionary, I got the following (Dorfar - please let me know if these are even remotely accurate):
bard=runoilija
poet=runoilija
storyteller=sadunkertoja or tarinoitsija
Obviously there must be a subtle difference in meaning between the latter two, that English doesn't. I had been thinking of a class title like "blade singer" (vaguely reminiscent of Warhammer FRP, and it refers a little to sword singers of the Known World but neat, IMO).
Geoff
Those are correct although the bard is usually called just bardi.
Sadunkertoja is someone who tells fairy tales instead of stories so there is a little difference there.
Väinämöinen who is the greatest of these is also called tietäjä which means sage, wise man or seer but I didn't want to put that because the of the special letters. ;)
But if we think about game terms I would think that the bard class would be the nearest. Then it would have bardic knowledge, skills with magic and special songs combined with ability to use swords.
What comes to my mind when talking about bladesinger are the elven bladesingers from the AD&D 2nd edition and those are IMO too combat related.
Btw. Not sure if you were aware of this, but Finnish legend Kalevala was a great inspiration to J.R.R. Tolkien who took i.e. the story of Turin Turambar from the story of Kullervo who is a tragic hero in Kalevala. Just to get you the idea what kind of stories there are in the poems.
Havard
Would there really have to be a cultural connection for Immortals to be present? The idea was basically a possibility to extend the Athruagin Immortals to other "nature peoples" as it were. It hardly makes sense that they would be interested in only the tiny little region of Athruagin. Since there were RW Sami Bear cults (and most likely Reindeer cults -Elk) I came up with that. It's not a big deal though.
Just going with the R/W parallell, there was a lot of contact between Norse and Sami people, as well as Norse and Baltic cultures. It doesn't mean it will have to apply to Mystara ofcourse. OTOH, I suspect the people of the Northern Reaches have been raiding both up and down along the eastern coast of Brun to have made a cultural impact in quite a few places.
Havard
An other Finn here putting his spoon in the soup.
Considering old Finnish gods, there is a good list in Wikipedia under Finnish mythology. I would say that most important ones from that list are Ahti, Pekko, Pellervo, Tapio, Tuoni and Ukko.
Ukko is the god of sky and thunder, I would say some kind of combination of Odin and Thor.
Ahti is a god of water. If think about Kaarjala, he would be quite useless as a sea god, but maybe usable as a river god (Protius???).
Tapio is a god forest. (Ilsundal?)
Pekko and Pellervo are both agricultural gods and maybe should be combined as a one. (Who the heck is agricultural Immortal in Mystara???)
Tuoni is a god death. (Propably Hela would be close enough if you forget the sex.)
One other usable gould be Mielikki, Tapio's daughter, who is a goddess of hunting. (No idea for corresponding Immortal)
About Sami people. They had a mothergoddess Mattarakka (Terra?) and his three daughters, Sarakka, Juksakka and Uksakka, who were protecting and guiding the development of children before and after birth.
Then they have a thunder god Tiermes (Thor), who got angry if people didn't respect the nature.
Also important was wind god Bieggo-almmaj or Bieggolmai (???), who was governing the powers of nature which were directing the whole life of Sami people.
Under the wind god was god of fertility who took care of sufficiency berries, game and fishes.
An other Finn here putting his spoon in the soup.
Considering old Finnish gods, there is a good list in Wikipedia under Finnish mythology. I would say that most important ones from that list are Ahti, Pekko, Pellervo, Tapio, Tuoni and Ukko.
I agree with you in here.
Ukko is the god of sky and thunder, I would say some kind of combination of Odin and Thor.
As he is the supreme god I'd say Odin might be the best equivalent
One other usable gould be Mielikki, Tapio's daughter, who is a goddess of hunting. (No idea for corresponding Immortal)
Maybe Zirchev? Maybe the gender is wrong but I presume immortals can act as anything they'd like.
About Sami people. They had a mothergoddess Mattarakka (Terra?) and his three daughters, Sarakka, Juksakka and Uksakka, who were protecting and guiding the development of children before and after birth.
Then they have a thunder god Tiermes (Thor), who got angry if people didn't respect the nature.
Also important was wind god Bieggo-almmaj or Bieggolmai (???), who was governing the powers of nature which were directing the whole life of Sami people.
Under the wind god was god of fertility who took care of sufficiency berries, game and fishes.
Can't say much about that as I'm not that familiar with their mythology
Maybe Zirchev?
I think that the people living so north as these Vaarana people in Mystara are living should have had an Immortal of hunting for quite a longer time than Zirchev has been Immortal.
I think that the people living so north as these Vaarana people in Mystara are living should have had an Immortal of hunting for quite a longer time than Zirchev has been Immortal.
How about Djaea? Hunting could be considered part of the natural balance.
Regards
Gary
Getting back to the male/female dimension of Immortals, I see no reason why an Immortal of one gender could not be seen as being the other (or having no gender at all) among some worshippers. This is the path I took for the Littonia Gaz, where RW Latvian mythology originally cast the deities of nature (the sun, the land, the sea) as female. So Ixion is seen as female to some of his followers...not a big deal, in the grand scheme of things.
Geoff
You can find it here.
Regards
Gary
Geoff
Picking random elements out of the hat, what do people think about local monsters, etc.? What sort of critters could one encounter in Kaarjala/Karjala, that may be unique?
Geoff
Hiisi could actually be a common name for various arctic races of humanoids.
Kokko is a giant eagle.
Kakkiainen is a spirit who appears when one is sleeping and shows where the treasure is.
There are also in finnish tradition creature called koirankuonolainen, which is dog headed human, so basicly lupin.
Kratti is screaming ghost who lying over buried treasures and chests guarding them.
Ajattara is an evil female forest spirit, who led foresters and hunters astray.
One interesting monster would be a white reindeer. It's an evil lycanthropic female, who changes to a white reindeer and kills men. It should be more a curse than actual lycanthrope, but you get the idea.
Coming back to animals and religion, bear, elk and swan were very important animals in old Finnish mythology. For instance if you disturb or killed a swan you were cursed or even killed by gods.
I think the Kokko could be a local name for a roc - perhaps a subspecies that is adapted to colder environments, with white plumage. They could live in the Icereach Range.
The koirankuonolainen could be a subspecies of lupin...
The Ajattara sounds very similar to the Littonian vadatajs (same method of entrapping its prey), so that could be the Kaarjalan name for it, since they were confined to "the North", and not just Littonia.
I really like the idea of the white reindeer! We would have to decide which Immortal laid the curse in the first place, and for what. My initial thought is a spurned lover who sought vengeance, and got more than she bargained for.
I think the notion of sacred animals is also something that bears exploring - would you know why those animals are important?
Geoff
I think the Kokko could be a local name for a roc - perhaps a subspecies that is adapted to colder environments, with white plumage. They could live in the Icereach Range.
Lovely plumage! But wouldn't it always be pinin' for the fjords? But watch it quick, before it's pushing up daisies and singin' with the choir invisible.
Or is that the Vestlander roc? I always get those two mixed up.
...Just to get all that out of the way...
:D
Very neat! Here are some thoughts:
The Ajattara sounds very similar to the Littonian vadatajs (same method of entrapping its prey), so that could be the Kaarjalan name for it, since they were confined to "the North", and not just Littonia.
Geoff
I think that the names are similar enough to come from the same root.
I really like the idea of the white reindeer! We would have to decide which Immortal laid the curse in the first place, and for what. My initial thought is a spurned lover who sought vengeance, and got more than she bargained for.
Geoff
I think that in one story it was just like that, she wanted to get a love of certain man and shaman told her to make a sacrifice in a holy place and she will become irresistable to men. Woman of course ended up having this curse on him.
I think the notion of sacred animals is also something that bears exploring - would you know why those animals are important?
Geoff
I think the worship of bear is universal amongst the northern people in Europe and Asia. Amongst Finns it was the king of forest. I think with the elk it has also something to do with it's size. Swan also was the biggest bird in the area, besides I think the whiteness have something to do with it also.
Harri
Thanks for the ideas about creatures!
Now then, outside of the Kalevala (sp?), are there any prominent Finnish legends, or legendary items, that would be nice to include in the Gaz? I have some ideas of my own, but many minds working together produce better results, IMO.
Geoff
But what I read the wise men/sage/witch/poets had usually a thing called voimavyö (Girldle of Power) which is similar to the Thor's Megingjord. It doen't provide only strenght but also other physical and/or mental skills.
Also related to the girdle some of the great sages carried a thing called umpiputki attached to the girdle. That is hard to translate but it is a hollow bronze tube and the wearer was highly recognized as it was thought it came from the Gods. The powers are usully related with healing but at some times it could be used as a throwing weapon.
Ukonvasara (Hammer of Ukko) which was usually the weapon of the supreme god when he was thought of as Thor. He usually bore axe or sword. The people wore stone amulets representing Ukko's weapons and thought they pretected them from him and thus lightning.
And naturally there was the Sampo which produced gold, grain and salt.
The Italian MMB produced some terms for Norwold regions/features. One of them was "Autuasmaa" used to describe the region around the Landsplit tributaries in the north.
How do I transform this name into an adjective? I.e. if the Autuasmaa is a plain, do i write
Autuasmaa Plain, or Autuasmaal Plain, or something else entirely?
-OldDawg
countrymen. There seem to be quite many Mystarites in Finland.
My two cents:
- I agree that it is better to use the English way with names and not the Finnish inflections. On the other hand I would avoid doubling geographic labels, like with any other language. An example from the other Norwold discussion: Sinijoki (Blue River), not Sinijoki River. But then again if one doesn't expect any player to know Finnish, who cares. In case of Autuasmaa (name of the whole region) the more specific Autuasmaa Plain would work well.
- If you want fantasy Finn advice, try the old Rolemaster Middle-Earth module on the Forodwaith. It is very good in that respect. Bit had to come by, though.
- I have used the name koirankuonolainen of kobolds.
- I won't offer santa claus's pagan version as a critter, but the elves (tonttu) might be interesting. They are spirits of homes that can be helpful but turn nasty if you forget to honor them by gifts of food. Animals are sick, crops wither... Nobody usually can see the tonttu of the house, of course. Trying to spy on one is a sure way to offend it.
I'll be adding some more thoughts once I get regular access to a computer again, but I'd like to ensure this doesn't get lost in the shuffle.
Geoff
* Some information on M-Sami Shamans, known as Noaids. They would use the rune-drum to send themselves into a trance. Known to work magic such as seeing the future and past, healing, exorcism, speaking with the dead etc.
* The Rune-drum, a religious item used by Shamans. A reindeer skin covered drum ornamented with symbols. The Noaid would beat on the drum with a T or F -shaped hammer made from bone.
* Joik, the special M-Sami way of semi-improvised singing. Sometimes used in rituals.
* Fear of the dark: Sami people have been known to have a special fear of darkness, perhaps because they know what dangers it hides-
* Sami people are often willing to pay taxes to forreign rulers in return for trade agreements (furs, bone ornaments, Reindeer Milk, herbs etc)
*Sami are relatively peaceful, perhaps to the point of being pacifist. Ofcourse, this may not extend to monsters.
* goatti : This is the special hut built and use by the Sami people, constructed from wooden beams/branches with dirt and moss. It had a hole in the middle of the roof to let smoke out.
* Gandr: Magic. Often performed with the use of a Ganding-rod. Used to send curses and other harmful spells through the air untill reaching a target.
* Gandr Pouch: A special pouch for collecting finger-nails, hair, dirt from burial mounds and other magical ingredients. Used by Magic users and Shamans alike.
* Gandr flies: Evil fly like creatures who spread curses and magical diseases.
* Duodji: Sami art, made from furs, tree roots, bones and antlers (especially reindeer) used to make ornaments, clothes, skis, cups, jars etc.
Havard
I have some ideas for NPCs of the realm, but I'd be interested in hearing your ideas.
Geoff