--it seems odd that Krynn would never have had such an empire NB
--hmmmm, now I must invent one!
NBThat sucks. Krynn deserves its mighty magical empires!
--hmmmm, now I must invent one!
Krynn's history is full of mysteries. The High Ogres, thousands of years ago, had an impressive and grand civilization dedicated to their glorious Queen of Darkness, but little trace remains. Dauroth, the ogre mage who became the first of the ogre titans, would like to think it was a period of titan dominance over the other firstborn races, but he's mistaken - the ogre titans are a myth. In truth, the original ogres were more like the Irda, without the shapeshifting but very much gifted in magic and blessings of Takhisis. No wizards (or even 5th Age style sorcerers) back then, however, for the Graygem had yet to be released. But the gods of magic weren't so tied to the moons, and those were elder days, so I think you could easily assign them some of Netheril's more decadent qualities.
Cheers,
Cam
Krynn's history is full of mysteries. The High Ogres, thousands of years ago, had an impressive and grand civilization dedicated to their glorious Queen of Darkness, but little trace remains. Dauroth, the ogre mage who became the first of the ogre titans, would like to think it was a period of titan dominance over the other firstborn races, but he's mistaken - the ogre titans are a myth. In truth, the original ogres were more like the Irda, without the shapeshifting but very much gifted in magic and blessings of Takhisis. No wizards (or even 5th Age style sorcerers) back then, however, for the Graygem had yet to be released. But the gods of magic weren't so tied to the moons, and those were elder days, so I think you could easily assign them some of Netheril's more decadent qualities.
Cheers,
Cam
Bah! Divine-magic empires just don't have the same ooompf behind them as arcane-magic empires.
--by that definition, Age of Dreams elves and humans were magical titans, too NB
Have there ever been any magical empires on Krynn that defied description that reached the uttermost heights of magic? I refer to both arcane and divine magic. Were there any city-states or kingdoms or empires that rivalled the likes of Netheril, on Toril?
See City of Lost Names, and possible ancient populations/nations/empires of Huldrafolk and Bakali. Ignore problems of magic access, and go nuts... These are all excellent fodder for such empires. Rumor has it that humans originated on a continent other than Ansalon, so they would likely be under represented in these days, but run with whatever works...
See City of Lost Names, and possible ancient populations/nations/empires of Huldrafolk and Bakali. Ignore problems of magic access, and go nuts... These are all excellent fodder for such empires. Rumor has it that humans originated on a continent other than Ansalon, so they would likely be under represented in these days, but run with whatever works...
Yeah, the huldre did have primal sorcery, and the bakali had divine magic first.....but they're not what I'm seeking.
--huldrefolk built no cities, and the bakali had divine magic, not arcane NB
For Divine Magic, you have but to look at the Empire of Istar.
As I said earlier, divine magic empires just aren't what I'm looking for.
--early Silvanesti society was heavily into ambient magic, wasn't it? NB
As I said earlier, divine magic empires just aren't what I'm looking for.
--early Silvanesti society was heavily into ambient magic, wasn't it? NB
The High Ogres did use arcane magic, but it wasn't the same as the kind used in the current era. You could use sorcerers, warlocks, anything you like - innate spellcasting, I would say. Amulets, talismans, powerful items charged with arcane energy. I think the High Ogres eventually lost all of this as they degenerated, and the only remnants are the minor spell-like abilities of Irda.
Cheers,
Cam
As I said earlier, divine magic empires just aren't what I'm looking for.
--early Silvanesti society was heavily into ambient magic, wasn't it? NB
Mostly post-Graygem, although the Graygem did wander around for centuries and centuries. There's strong evidence of innate magical talent in elves that is now pretty much limited to occasional empathic talent in House Royal.
Cheers,
Cam
The High Ogres did use arcane magic, but it wasn't the same as the kind used in the current era. You could use sorcerers, warlocks, anything you like - innate spellcasting, I would say. Amulets, talismans, powerful items charged with arcane energy. I think the High Ogres eventually lost all of this as they degenerated, and the only remnants are the minor spell-like abilities of Irda.
Cheers,
Cam
Ahhhhhh! They used ambient magic, then? Interesting! The "pretty-ogres" are what I'm looking for!
--as is early Silvanesti civilization, which also used primal sorcery NB
Also, a similar question about tayfolk: Have taylings always had primal sorcery, or was their favored class pre-Summer of Chaos wizard?
--thanks, Cam! NB
A related question 'bout the kyrie: It says their favored class is mystic. Was it once cleric, or has it always been mystic?
Always mystic. It's an innate ambient spellcasting thing much like how dragons and the spellcasting draconians use sorcery.
Also, a similar question about tayfolk: Have taylings always had primal sorcery, or was their favored class pre-Summer of Chaos wizard?
I'm going to say that they, too, always had innate sorcery. The trick to all of this is that we've had to retcon in a lot of material following the SAGA period and the development of the nature of magic. Prior to SAGA it was simply arcane magic or divine magic, nothing else. This is popular with a lot of fans, still, but we must work with additional constraints. The solution in many cases is that people always thought these races were using magic the way wizards do (even dragons were considered to be doing that) so the finer details of where they got the magic from were not of concern to 99% of Krynn's population.
Cheers,
Cam
--
thanks, Cam! NBYay! Now, I am free to create the rare and hidden few ambient magic races and civilizations during earlier Ages!
Why do I always come away from these discussions thinking that I've done nothing but remind you that you could have done that in the first place?
Cheers,
Cam
--surely ambient magic would've survived somewhere, in some widespread format NB
Why do I always come away from these discussions thinking that I've done nothing but remind you that you could have done that in the first place?
Cheers,
Cam
Because, when you say it, it carries more weight with me. I am a stickler for canon, and I like having official writers for a setting giving me ideas.
--it feels more "right" to me, than just winging it on my own
NBHow about the Empire of Aurim in Taladas? Prior to the Cataclysm it was the sole power on that continent.
Alas, I know nothing of Taladas. What was this Aurim Empire like, exactly?
--was it steeped in magical lore? NB
Alas, I know nothing of Taladas. What was this Aurim Empire like, exactly?
--was it steeped in magical lore? NB
Yes. That is if you consider the new Taladas novels canon. Aurim was lorded over by a powerful wizard known as the Faceless One.
Yes. That is if you consider the new Taladas novels canon. Aurim was lorded over by a powerful wizard known as the Faceless One.
So, how high did the Aurim Empire climb, magically speaking? Did it accomplish godlike feats and rival the gods, like Netheril did....or was it just "magic-heavy"?
--Istar, a divine magic empire, sought to de-throne the gods NB
So, how high did the Aurim Empire climb, magically speaking? Did it accomplish godlike feats and rival the gods, like Netheril did....or was it just "magic-heavy"?
--Istar, a divine magic empire, sought to de-throne the gods NB
Can't speak for Aurim as a whole, but the Faceless One was able to preform epic feats of spellcasting per the novels.
Can't speak for Aurim as a whole, but the Faceless One was able to preform epic feats of spellcasting per the novels.
One single epic wizard does not an epic magic empire make, Sysane. If he was the only real spellcaster in Aurim, then his empire was hardly the equal of Netheril or Imaskar, no matter how powerful he himself was.
--Istar, on the other hand, was an all-powerful magical empire NB
One single epic wizard does not an epic magic empire make, Sysane. If he was the only real spellcaster in Aurim, then his empire was hardly the equal of Netheril or Imaskar, no matter how powerful he himself was.
It was powerful enough for the gods to plunge a friey mountain into ;)
It was powerful enough for the gods to plunge a friey mountain into ;)
Oh, do tell more!
--what spell did he cast, that, along with the Kingpriest, damned Krynn? NB
--:P NB
Oh, do tell more!
Thats all tied to the 2e Taladas boxed set which doesn't mention anything about the Faceless One. He's been somewhat detailed in the new Taladas novels. The boxed set doesn't go into great detail regarding the Empire of Aurim. I can only assume that its might was equal to that of Istar due to the gods' need of causing a Cataclysm there as well.
That is the blessing and curse of vaugeness. D&D gives you a little background and leaves it loose so you can make it fit with your game.
True, but I'd rather not have the vagueness, unless it's never going to be unvieled. Not all setting secrets should remain secretive. Look at Scarred Lands, by White Wolf: Once they unvieled the heretofore unknown slarecians, all sorts of setting options opened up. I'd like the same thing to happen with ambient magic.
--if it has been a part of Krynn since the begining, then let's explore that! NB
--if it has been a part of Krynn since the begining, then let's explore that! NB
It wasn't around in the same way. We don't know exactly how it worked, since we're never going to reveal or explain or detail anything pre-Graygem, but it is true that there were no D&D-style sorcerers or mystics prior to the Graygem. Ambient magic existed, and was available to certain races as an innate, non-Chaos related ability, but how and in what form hasn't been revealed.
Dragons, fey, high ogres, and so forth use the sorcerer class and D&D spell effects to handle their magic but they aren't the same kinds of sorcerers as the post-Graygem and post-Chaos War sorcerers. Make sense?
Cheers,
Cam
--because that's actually fairly cool, and adds a lot to Krynn NB
You mean, "They used ancient ambient magic that's gone now forever, but superficially resembles primal sorcery and mysticism, as practiced in the Fifth Age"?
--because that's actually fairly cool, and adds a lot to Krynn NB
I think it'd be a great age to experiment with warlocks, truenamers, that kind of thing.
Cheers,
Cam
I think it'd be a great age to experiment with warlocks, truenamers, that kind of thing.
Cheers,
Cam
Could such classes still exist today?
--could binders and truenamers still exist on Krynn? NB
Could such classes still exist today?
--could binders and truenamers still exist on Krynn? NB
There's no official support for them, so I don't have anything "official" to suggest. All I'm saying is that if you're looking for some means of bringing those into your game, this would be the place to start. The Dragonlance Nexus has a lot of fan-created rules and suggestions for including non-standard D&D races, classes, and PrCs from other WOTC books in your game; I'd take a look there.
Cheers,
Cam
--what would a Krynnish Vestige be like? NB
Yes, the Empire of Aurim on Taladas was a magical society from all indications. The Empire as a whole was run by a series of Emperor-Mages, Maladar the Faceless being the most infamous that we know about. From the Taladas novels we're told that unlike Ansalon the only empire Taladas has ever known was Aurim. Given the apparenty magocratic government of the place you could surmise that power in magic = power in politics there and build on that for roleplaying ideas.
Note, it wasn't as "epic" as Netheril was (good thing too, Netheril was powerful to the point of stupidity) but it was a magic-happy government.
Plus, IIRC, the Krynnspace accessory (Spelljammer, 2e) described another planet from Krynn's solar system where civilization had been apparently eradicated by the gods for delving into things they had no business knowing.
Come to think of it, Krynn's gods seem a little too trigger-happy for their own good...
I am surprised Cam hasn't mentioned the "Magocracy of Ansalon" alternate timeline described in the Legends of the Twins sourcebook.
Well, it isn't part of the mainstream timeline, hence not as immediately useful to Nero's Hardy Footwear here.
Cheers,
Cam
Well, it isn't part of the mainstream timeline
Eh, who can really say it isn't the main timeline and ours is the alternate one. Given what happened in this one, I confess the alternative sounds like a much better deal... ;)
Eh, who can really say it isn't the main timeline and ours is the alternate one. Given what happened in this one, I confess the alternative sounds like a much better deal... ;)
Well, we have to pick one of them or else things get even more confusing than they already are.
Cheers,
Cam