Weapons and Inferior Materials. - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Weapons and Inferior Materials.

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
zombiegleemax
Feb 23, 2007 17:24:28 While some of the weapons that are unique to the setting are obviously very easily made. My question is, how is bone going to make a longsword or greatsword?

Spears, Axes, Knives, Clubs, and Staves and Short Swords where common, thus i suppose Macahuitl's would just be knives on a staff. How would Athasians be able to make longswords, bastard swords, or even greatswords out of nothing but bone or obsidian when the reason greeks didn't have larger weapons was because their metal working skills were not able to make iron strong and flexible enough to carry such a long blade?

I would like to see everyone's input on it so that i could possibly make a more "accurate" portrait of athas's weaponry (yes it's a fantasy setting but i'm a stickler on this stuff)

Additionally, how common would bronze be. I know copper is the equivilent to a ceramic peice. How common is tin. Would this be a feasible alternative to the materials presented?
#2
zombiegleemax
Feb 23, 2007 23:05:32
While some of the weapons that are unique to the setting are obviously very easily made. My question is, how is bone going to make a longsword or greatsword?

Spears, Axes, Knives, Clubs, and Staves and Short Swords where common, thus i suppose Macahuitl's would just be knives on a staff. How would Athasians be able to make longswords, bastard swords, or even greatswords out of nothing but bone or obsidian when the reason greeks didn't have larger weapons was because their metal working skills were not able to make iron strong and flexible enough to carry such a long blade?

If you are actually looking for excuses how these things could exist here are a couple:

Certain bones (or chitonous parts) of certain creatures are much harder/tougher than those of normal Earth life. How do you think these huge insects and other critters get around so nimblely (or at all) with such an enormous size? Why it must be their super-strong yet light-weight bones (or super-strong muscles or some junk).

There are certain other alternate materials (like the ones in this archival post here) which are more resilliant than their real-world counterparts.

Though sometimes portrayed as single large slabs of stone or bone, it's possible that the blades of most large non-metal weapons on Athas are more heavily composite. Something like the macahuitl you mentioned.

Along these lines there's a thread I found the other day here that gives a few examples. It's nominally about the macahuitl, but has some pretty inspiring (IMHO) illustrations of other composite weapons as well.

The old fallback for crap in the game that doesn't make sense: "A wizard did it." Ok, not necessarily wizards per se (since they're none too common) but I could see clerics having spells to toughen materials, and the Matter Manipulation power (or Molecular Rearrangement, the old 2ed. psionic Science) could be used to "temper" various weapons.

Actually getting an arcane practitioner to touch up your inferior-material-weapons could end up being much cheaper than buying metal versions.

Additionally, how common would bronze be. I know copper is the equivilent to a ceramic peice. How common is tin. Would this be a feasible alternative to the materials presented?

Hmmm... good point. There certainly isn't much mention of bronze being used. Maybe tin just isn't very common.
#3
cnahumck
Feb 24, 2007 1:02:37 back in 2ed there were spells called ironstone, ironwood, and ironbone that would make inferior weapons a strong as metal. could be that there are psionic versions, or that clerics or templars exist that only focus on this. a psionic adept/expert who's specialty was weapons could do some pretty nifty things. Players wouldn't bother, but an NPC definitely would.

EDIT: I also just remembered the war club I got in Hawaii. It has sharks teeth in it, just woven in with fine rope and secured into a groove on the side. Almost everyone that picks it up cuts themselves on the sharks teeth. Super sharp. A sword that was a composite that positioned serrated teeth correctly could be a longsword or great sword even without too much trouble. And it would be razor sharp. Tiger shark teeth are just nasty. You don't even realize that you have been bitten.
#4
j0lt
Feb 24, 2007 2:40:58
I also just remembered the war club I got in Hawaii. It has sharks teeth in it, just woven in with fine rope and secured into a groove on the side. Almost everyone that picks it up cuts themselves on the sharks teeth. Super sharp. A sword that was a composite that positioned serrated teeth correctly could be a longsword or great sword even without too much trouble. And it would be razor sharp. Tiger shark teeth are just nasty. You don't even realize that you have been bitten.

That's a Macahuitl. (with shark's teeth instead of chips of obsidian)
#5
zombiegleemax
Feb 24, 2007 15:51:33 I'm a big fan of obsidian, since my studies in the Near East, have placed obsidian trade out of Turkey to the pre-sumerian cities for thousands of years.

Spears, axes and daggers are best for non-metal weapons. I know the Macahuitl sounds cool, but if you use it like a sword, the obsidian/teeth will become dull and even break from the sword. So extended use in combat will reduce damage until it becomes a club.

Shark's or any other predator's teeth are best used as arrow heads. I can imagine TRex teeth being used has spearheads and knives.

In a land of little metal, a sword, would, not only be the most superior weapon on the battlefield, but would also be a symbol of power and wealth.
#6
zombiegleemax
Feb 24, 2007 20:28:11
I know the Macahuitl sounds cool, but if you use it like a sword, the obsidian/teeth will become dull and even break from the sword. So extended use in combat will reduce damage until it becomes a club.

I'd assume it'd be normal to replace the obsidian bits periodically. But then I'd also imagine that the stone knapping skill would be pretty common on Athas, since not only weapons but any sharp or durable household tools would likely need to be repaired or replaced on a regular basis as well.
#7
zombiegleemax
Feb 24, 2007 23:16:58 Well, perhaps you will help me then, I will draw up some pictures for my players and what not. I'm planning something along the lines of a campaign driven by the material presented in the first boxed set. Perhaps a little bit before. Unsure...ANYHOW

Balic - Long spears, Large wooden shield, Erdlu bone dagger (possibly short sword). Clasical hoplite gear possibly? This seems perfectly logical to me considering the fact that there is no longswords (i run out of a different game msystem sorry, i'm a weird)

Draj - "obsidian edged sword", and a "barbed throwing spear with rope attached". I'm assuming Macahuitl's, or draj sword, in addition to spears. Additionally, in the city state of draj it is stated that bows are also an important weapon. This will lead me to assume "sword and sheild" type of fighting style will be common because of the lack of ability to parry effectively, but i could be wrong. I would think that this weapon would be weilded much more like a mass weapon than anything else. Spears and shields would also seem common in addition to bows.

Glug - It states that the jugada depend on more stealth and bows and arrows. I would have to assume that they have knives of some sort, spears, arrows, bows, and possibly a club. I would expect shields to be rare.

Nibenay - Lances and clubs. Both made of wood. I would assume that datchi clubs, crushers, and gouges would also be very very potent weapons that were used by Nibenay's army. This is just a guess though.

Raam - Flint spears and obsidian tipped flails. the spears seem common, i would also have to assume that axes would be common as well.

Tyr - one of the few places with roman style metal weapons. that's my guess

Urik - I see this as the typical babylon city state. I picture axes, lances, sheilds, and something similar to a khopesh and a macahuitl love child. That is just an idea however.

I picture axes and spears, clubs, and shields being very very common in place of a 2 handed sword. or the historical longsword or even an arming sword.

I picture the only sword even close to the length of a historical longsword would be that of the Macahuitl ranging to the length of an arming sword or "broad sword". I don't see the gouge as being a very effective weapon at all; however, the crusher and the datchi club are very very close to a real pole arm used in a late renniassance german revolution which was paired up with a Messer (perhaps most athasian swords would look like this)

A cut and thrust sword would be very close to what i picture and elven blade to be. Elegant, armor peircing, effective at both cutting and thrusting, can be paired up with a dagger or a buckler. I picture this because not only would the peircing be good against the chitinous exoskeleton of the Thri-Kreen, but any armor of the enemy. Additionally it would still be able to cut so that i twouldn't be parried as easily.

i'm just throwing out ideas, pictures will be drawn later.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Feb 23, 2007 17:24:28	While some of the weapons that are unique to the setting are obviously very easily made. My question is, how is bone going to make a longsword or greatsword? Spears, Axes, Knives, Clubs, and Staves and Short Swords where common, thus i suppose Macahuitl's would just be knives on a staff. How would Athasians be able to make longswords, bastard swords, or even greatswords out of nothing but bone or obsidian when the reason greeks didn't have larger weapons was because their metal working skills were not able to make iron strong and flexible enough to carry such a long blade? I would like to see everyone's input on it so that i could possibly make a more "accurate" portrait of athas's weaponry (yes it's a fantasy setting but i'm a stickler on this stuff) Additionally, how common would bronze be. I know copper is the equivilent to a ceramic peice. How common is tin. Would this be a feasible alternative to the materials presented?
#2 zombiegleemax Feb 23, 2007 23:05:32	While some of the weapons that are unique to the setting are obviously very easily made. My question is, how is bone going to make a longsword or greatsword? Spears, Axes, Knives, Clubs, and Staves and Short Swords where common, thus i suppose Macahuitl's would just be knives on a staff. How would Athasians be able to make longswords, bastard swords, or even greatswords out of nothing but bone or obsidian when the reason greeks didn't have larger weapons was because their metal working skills were not able to make iron strong and flexible enough to carry such a long blade? If you are actually looking for excuses how these things could exist here are a couple: Certain bones (or chitonous parts) of certain creatures are much harder/tougher than those of normal Earth life. How do you think these huge insects and other critters get around so nimblely (or *at all*) with such an enormous size? Why it must be their super-strong yet light-weight bones (or super-strong muscles or some junk). There are certain other alternate materials (like the ones in this archival post here) which are more resilliant than their real-world counterparts. Though sometimes portrayed as single large slabs of stone or bone, it's possible that the blades of most large non-metal weapons on Athas are more heavily composite. Something like the macahuitl you mentioned. Along these lines there's a thread I found the other day here that gives a few examples. It's nominally about the macahuitl, but has some pretty inspiring (IMHO) illustrations of other composite weapons as well. The old fallback for crap in the game that doesn't make sense: "A wizard did it." Ok, not necessarily wizards per se (since they're none too common) but I could see clerics having spells to toughen materials, and the Matter Manipulation power (or Molecular Rearrangement, the old 2ed. psionic Science) could be used to "temper" various weapons. Actually getting an arcane practitioner to touch up your inferior-material-weapons could end up being much cheaper than buying metal versions. Additionally, how common would bronze be. I know copper is the equivilent to a ceramic peice. How common is tin. Would this be a feasible alternative to the materials presented? Hmmm... good point. There certainly isn't much mention of bronze being used. Maybe tin just isn't very common.
#3 cnahumck Feb 24, 2007 1:02:37	back in 2ed there were spells called ironstone, ironwood, and ironbone that would make inferior weapons a strong as metal. could be that there are psionic versions, or that clerics or templars exist that only focus on this. a psionic adept/expert who's specialty was weapons could do some pretty nifty things. Players wouldn't bother, but an NPC definitely would. EDIT: I also just remembered the war club I got in Hawaii. It has sharks teeth in it, just woven in with fine rope and secured into a groove on the side. Almost everyone that picks it up cuts themselves on the sharks teeth. Super sharp. A sword that was a composite that positioned serrated teeth correctly could be a longsword or great sword even without too much trouble. And it would be razor sharp. Tiger shark teeth are just nasty. You don't even realize that you have been bitten.
#4 j0lt Feb 24, 2007 2:40:58	I also just remembered the war club I got in Hawaii. It has sharks teeth in it, just woven in with fine rope and secured into a groove on the side. Almost everyone that picks it up cuts themselves on the sharks teeth. Super sharp. A sword that was a composite that positioned serrated teeth correctly could be a longsword or great sword even without too much trouble. And it would be razor sharp. Tiger shark teeth are just nasty. You don't even realize that you have been bitten. That's a Macahuitl. (with shark's teeth instead of chips of obsidian)
#5 zombiegleemax Feb 24, 2007 15:51:33	I'm a big fan of obsidian, since my studies in the Near East, have placed obsidian trade out of Turkey to the pre-sumerian cities for thousands of years. Spears, axes and daggers are best for non-metal weapons. I know the Macahuitl sounds cool, but if you use it like a sword, the obsidian/teeth will become dull and even break from the sword. So extended use in combat will reduce damage until it becomes a club. Shark's or any other predator's teeth are best used as arrow heads. I can imagine TRex teeth being used has spearheads and knives. In a land of little metal, a sword, would, not only be the most superior weapon on the battlefield, but would also be a symbol of power and wealth.
#6 zombiegleemax Feb 24, 2007 20:28:11	I know the Macahuitl sounds cool, but if you use it like a sword, the obsidian/teeth will become dull and even break from the sword. So extended use in combat will reduce damage until it becomes a club. I'd assume it'd be normal to replace the obsidian bits periodically. But then I'd also imagine that the stone knapping skill would be pretty common on Athas, since not only weapons but any sharp or durable household tools would likely need to be repaired or replaced on a regular basis as well.
#7 zombiegleemax Feb 24, 2007 23:16:58	Well, perhaps you will help me then, I will draw up some pictures for my players and what not. I'm planning something along the lines of a campaign driven by the material presented in the first boxed set. Perhaps a little bit before. Unsure...ANYHOW Balic - Long spears, Large wooden shield, Erdlu bone dagger (possibly short sword). Clasical hoplite gear possibly? This seems perfectly logical to me considering the fact that there is no longswords (i run out of a different game msystem sorry, i'm a weird) Draj - "obsidian edged sword", and a "barbed throwing spear with rope attached". I'm assuming Macahuitl's, or draj sword, in addition to spears. Additionally, in the city state of draj it is stated that bows are also an important weapon. This will lead me to assume "sword and sheild" type of fighting style will be common because of the lack of ability to parry effectively, but i could be wrong. I would think that this weapon would be weilded much more like a mass weapon than anything else. Spears and shields would also seem common in addition to bows. Glug - It states that the jugada depend on more stealth and bows and arrows. I would have to assume that they have knives of some sort, spears, arrows, bows, and possibly a club. I would expect shields to be rare. Nibenay - Lances and clubs. Both made of wood. I would assume that datchi clubs, crushers, and gouges would also be very very potent weapons that were used by Nibenay's army. This is just a guess though. Raam - Flint spears and obsidian tipped flails. the spears seem common, i would also have to assume that axes would be common as well. Tyr - one of the few places with roman style metal weapons. that's my guess Urik - I see this as the typical babylon city state. I picture axes, lances, sheilds, and something similar to a khopesh and a macahuitl love child. That is just an idea however. I picture axes and spears, clubs, and shields being very very common in place of a 2 handed sword. or the historical longsword or even an arming sword. I picture the only sword even close to the length of a historical longsword would be that of the Macahuitl ranging to the length of an arming sword or "broad sword". I don't see the gouge as being a very effective weapon at all; however, the crusher and the datchi club are very very close to a real pole arm used in a late renniassance german revolution which was paired up with a Messer (perhaps most athasian swords would look like this) A cut and thrust sword would be very close to what i picture and elven blade to be. Elegant, armor peircing, effective at both cutting and thrusting, can be paired up with a dagger or a buckler. I picture this because not only would the peircing be good against the chitinous exoskeleton of the Thri-Kreen, but any armor of the enemy. Additionally it would still be able to cut so that i twouldn't be parried as easily. i'm just throwing out ideas, pictures will be drawn later.