Anyway.. I'm starting a Planescape campaign as a Dm to new players to the setting and I trying to build a concept around renaissance earth ( a fantasy loose fantasy version of renaissance history)
Now where would God ( As God, Allah, Yavhe) stand in planescape cosmology?
Would he be an overdeity, greater god, something else. How would you incorporate this concept into planescape...
Any suggestions would be useful
Of course, in Planescape Enlil is dead, killed by the Babylonian gods Nergal and Anshar, so that means one of the two beings known as God is dead as well. Heaven (which is really Mechanus) is in an uproar, angels displaced everywhere and weeping, and the Abrahamic religions are now entirely under the control of Enlil.
The Sign of One faction, however, have been talking about resurrecting Enki. We'll see how that goes.
Satan is more powerful than all the angels combined.
God is infinitely more powerful than Satan. No way God can lose.
So, Satan = DvR 20. God = 23+ DvR.
Jesus/God/Allah, would probably be DvR 23.
Can you reinforce this with anything? Using canon references, I would rate the Abrahamic God as greater god, Dvr 19 or 20, but not an overdeity. I came to this conclusion based on the fact that On Hallowed Ground rates Brahman, the Hindu Absolute Reality that encompasses all, as a Greater power. Though different in their conceptualizations, Brahman and God do share a number of characteristics (omnipotence and omniscience being my chief examples) that would place the two in the same group, DvR-wise.
. . . I'm just going to stop at that.
I'd make him an alias of the Sumerian gods Enki and Enlil; Enlil was the one who caused the Great Flood, while Enki was the one who saved his loyal servant Noah/Utnapushtim from it. Enlil is God in his severe aspect, while Enki is God in his merciful aspect. The Bible can be read as a struggle between the two.
Of course, in Planescape Enlil is dead, killed by the Babylonian gods Nergal and Anshar, so that means one of the two beings known as God is dead as well. Heaven (which is really Mechanus) is in an uproar, angels displaced everywhere and weeping, and the Abrahamic religions are now entirely under the control of Enlil.
The Sign of One faction, however, have been talking about resurrecting Enki. We'll see how that goes.
Dammit rip! Stop rationalizing everything into delicious plots and stories.
::writes down new concepts for short stories while glaring at rip::
However... It's would'nt work in my campaign as I'm basing my campaign around the religious feuds of the renaissance and later ( a cross-time chronicle). It's going to be a whole plot evolving around corrupt church officials and tracking down the truth of God's message accross the planes. the pcs hope that doing so will bring peace to the land.
I need him to have his own pantheon where he would be the only true god from it. The end of the plot comes with the Baatazu trying to stop their creator from bringing positive changes to the material world. As well, the Baatazu want to prevent the faith from spreading into other planes
I'm setting up the Devil as Asmodeus (Rising his power level to demi-god strenght) and the four greatest Archangels would be uber-powered Solars with enough power to fight him (remember that it was Micheal that fought Lucifer and banished him to hell using THE flaming sword).
So more questions: -What factions would oppose wich side?
- what would be God's home plane?
-What would the other faiths think of God's follower's
-any other suggestions
I'm already working on several ideas on those questions but I'm always up for new suggestions
On the idea of home plane, and especially if Asmodeus is The Devil, Mount Celestia would seem to fit.
I like Rip's interpretation, too, which is something I've long been playing with, that God, even as depicted in the Bible, was not the only god around.
But... like I said Rip Van Wormer's idea is very cool but I'm trying to keep with my campaign format. Remember just because the Bible says that God said he is the only god, does not mean it's true (especially in a Planescape campaign), as well does not mean that's what he REALLY said.
I think a greater power with a base homeplane on The 7 mounting heavens of Celestia would work. It might explain what's really happening on the 7th heaven...
So what about my earlier questions ?
I'm trying to figure his domains and I figured a short list figured in a short stat block on how I see God
Yavhe/Allah,God. The father in heaven, the alpha and the Omega
Greater God
Alignement: LG
Domains: Healing, Good, Community, mysticism, creation, Glory, Charity, Protection, Exorcism,
Portfolio: Peace, love, evangelism, truth, charity, healing, mercy, protecting the weak,
How does it look ?
One thing I wounder, what factions should be against him and who would be willing to work with him
For that matter, is it sound to assume many good aligned deities would oppose him ?
What about explaining planar travel in christian concepts any suggestions?
Also how does the idea that entering the city might be impossible till one is dead, thus only his angelic choirs and petitioners can enter (also petitioners would rarely leave, and they were never want to leave unless it's to accomplish a mission for God)?
That's fairly standard for deific realms, except for the "only the dead can enter" part, which is easily doable. If a power doesn't want you on its turf, you won't be getting in.
One thing I wounder, what factions should be against him and who would be willing to work with him
Against: Revolutionary League (opposes all authority), the Harmonium (since all Hardheads have to believe in the same thing, they can't accept a religion that denies all other gods unless all Hardheads belong to that religion, which they don't), Athar (against all powers), Bleak Cabal (they object to the Christian attempt at imposing meaning on the multiverse)
Working with him: Planes-Militant (common alignment and attitude), Sign of One (they love monotheistic creator gods, since they think of themselves that way, and they love gods that deny other gods exist - YHWH's practically one of their faction already), Doomguard (they love the Book of Revelation), Mercykillers (they approve of his sense of justice)
Neutral: Chaositects (not thrilled with lawful gods, but respect the more chaotic Christian sects), Free League (respect others' freedom of religion, as long as they leave them alone), Transcendent Order (could join either side, depending on their mood), Ring-Givers (admire Christian charity and their prohibition against usury, but are busy with other projects), Society of Sensation (not opposed to trying anything once, but find monotheism too limiting), etc.
For that matter, is it sound to assume many good aligned deities would oppose him ?
They'll oppose him unless he lifts that restriction against worshiping graven images. And, you know, against worshiping them.
What about explaining planar travel in christian concepts any suggestions?
I'd have Christian scholars refer to the Outer Planes as "the lands beyond the Astral Plane," the "the Middle Marches between Heaven and Hell," or "Limbo." Christian wizards might explicitly refer to their magic as "white magic" or "natural philosophy" to make sure everyone knows it isn't of infernal origin.
-First: As an exiting twists maybe the Sign of One loves YWVH's ideas as an exemplar of their ideology but HE DOES NOT, remember, for Christian/Judaic/Islamic dogma anybody claiming to be the center of the universe would be commiting sin against him. Might be an exiting side-aspect to see Signers trying to get him to favor them just as christian priest would see them as misguided sinners. Thus YWVH would oppose any evil plot by the sign of the one and try to convert all others from this ideology. Might be nice as a side-plot for a split faction to emerge amongst Signers
:evillaugh where some would actually begin to believe that YWVH really is THE center of the universe.-Second: Seems to me like the doomguard would oppose the christian religion, doomguards propose the entropic decay of the mulitverse, thats completely against the concept of the book of revelations (remember in the end God restores perfect order and good by saving those worthy and banishing evil for eternity). Despite how bad it seems the Book of Revelations is described as having a happy ending.
-Third:Chaositects would oppose him it seems as christian/Judaic/Islamic theology is definetly a lawful perspective where God's word teaches how an ordered and good aligned society must foction to achieve happiness and peace
-Forth: The transcendent order might actually have some members ready to work with him ( going to his city, leaving the world of flesh as a form of transcendence, see christian mysticism)
-Five: Who are the ring givers
-Sixth: How does the idea that God would accept non-human followers in the idea that when it is said he created man and woman in his image it actually meant male and female (thus allowing non-human followers under the implication that also according to Islamic theology, God literarily encompasses all of existence, thus he would include in himself even the non-human races), (open to debate of course).
-Seven: your opinion on other gods sounds good but as an exiting twist (and because things are rarely simple in Planescape) what powers might be willing to work with him? This question came with the case of Arthur who was a christian even as Merlin was clearly a Pagan...
-Eight: Actually arcane magic in my material world will come in the forms of Gnosticim (an actual sect of magic working christians that disapeared in the late medieval period), Judaic Kabalah and Islamic Alchemy/Sufi mystics mostly for christians, jew and moslem while pagan religions will have access to druidism, egyptian/sumerian/greek magic (of course the church would actually have access to many secret text from those sources) etc. Finally, i'll include diabolists and infernalist (reflected by choice of spells and prestige classes) to represent devil worshipping arcane castersas well as corrupted priests. Does that look good?
Thanks everybody:D
...To my knowledge, big-G God hasn't been credited with doing anything that a greater deity (about DvR 19 or 20) hasn't also been credited with doing. In the sense of the game, I'm not sure that he needs to be anything more than a greater deity. Other greater gods are said to have made the world (whether or not any of them actually have is unimportant), their chosen species, etc.
On the idea of home plane, and especially if Asmodeus is The Devil, Mount Celestia would seem to fit.
God is stated in canon to have created all of the stars.
-First: As an exiting twists maybe the Sign of One loves YWVH's ideas as an exemplar of their ideology but HE DOES NOT
True, but how often does he give out his opinion? There are enough heretical Christian sects that it's gonna be rare.
thats completely against the concept of the book of revelations (remember in the end God restores perfect order and good by saving those worthy and banishing evil for eternity). Despite how bad it seems the Book of Revelation is described as having a happy ending.
That depends on how you interpret it; like all books of the Bible, that's open to dispute.
The creed of the Doomguard is only that the multiverse must eventually come to an end; they don't have any opinion on what happens afterwards. Whether it's recreated or there's merely endless void isn't relevant to their actions before then. They're not a faction opposed to happy endings - they're just in favor of any ending, while other groups don't think things necessarily have to end at all.
-Third:Chaositects would oppose him it seems as christian/Judaic/Islamic theology is definetly a lawful perspective
Mainstream theology is orderly, but you don't have to be in favor of order and hierarchy to be part of the Abrahamic tradition. There are plenty of wild, mystical sects in all three religions that see the Holy Spirit as a wild, untamed thing that can't be captured perfectly by books and priests. The Sufi aren't very orderly, for example.
But yes, I was deliberately trying to be counterintuitive with some of my selections, so that this is more than just alignment. Dividing everything along strict alignment-based lines seems boring.
-Five: Who are the ring givers
They're a sect founded on Ysgard by a deva of Tyr called Unity-of-Rings. They teach that gifts and other good deeds come back to reward the giver. Some of them give for the sake of generosity, while others give because they know they will eventually receive. They're originally from Planes of Chaos; see Chapter 3 of the PSCS for the latest version.
-Sixth: How does the idea that God would accept non-human followers in the idea that when it is said he created man and woman in his image it actually meant male and female (thus allowing non-human followers under the implication that also according to Islamic theology, God literarily encompasses all of existence, thus he would include in himself even the non-human races), (open to debate of course).
Indeed. Some might interpret him as a universal deity, while others might see him as human-only, believing that only humans were created in his image.
-Seven: your opinion on other gods sounds good but as an exiting twist (and because things are rarely simple in Planescape) what powers might be willing to work with him?
Maybe those gods who aren't historical rivals of his followers. I can see a cool, businesslike relationship between Yahweh and Vishnu - neither likes the other, but they respect one another and can work together on common goals. The same with Shang-ti (of the Chinese pantheon).
God is stated in canon to have created all of the stars.
So is just about every other creator god - the dwarves say the stars are sparks from Moradin's forge, the Norse say Odin, Vili, and Ve made the stars from the fires of Muspelheim, the dragons say Io made the entire universe, creating first the First Void from which all potential sprang. Stars aren't a big deal, anyway; they're just little glowing dots on the surface of the sky. Making the sun is much more impressive.
Jesus/God/Allah, would probably be DvR 23.
Satan is more powerful than all the angels combined.
God is infinitely more powerful than Satan. No way God can lose.
So, Satan = DvR 20. God = 23+ DvR.
Actually, there are stats for Lucifer in an old issue of dragon called politics of hell. I saw someone's stats for Satan that were exactly the same.
Lucifer Morningstar
Movement: Whatever desired
Damage 10-100 per hit
Immune to attacks from an attacker without a +3 weapon and pure of heart (how the hell do you measure something subjective like purity of heart?)
100% magic resistance
If anyone uses psionics on him he dominates them forever
Unlimited Wishes that can only be overriden by the Almighty
Kind of a new one for me. In the Bible Satan/Lucifer never commits any of his own evil acts. In Job he kills Job's family and puts boils on him under orders from god, that's about it. I'd think the wishes would only be for people he's tempting, other than that he would be beatable.
Stars aren't a big deal, anyway; they're just little glowing dots on the surface of the sky. Making the sun is much more impressive.
In Spelljammer, they can be the regular gas kind, or torches carried by giants (Jebus, how big are those giants?) and other stuff.
Kobolds will rule all!
I have the monster mythology book and it says the Kobold creator god is a greater god, but his avatar is a wimp and a lot weaker than avatars of other less powerful gods, Lloth's avatar could kick his butt.
True, but how often does he give out his opinion? There are enough heretical Christian sects that it's gonna be rare.
That depends on how you interpret it; like all books of the Bible, that's open to dispute.
The creed of the Doomguard is only that the multiverse must eventually come to an end; they don't have any opinion on what happens afterwards. Whether it's recreated or there's merely endless void isn't relevant to their actions before then. They're not a faction opposed to happy endings - they're just in favor of any ending, while other groups don't think things necessarily have to end at all.
Mainstream theology is orderly, but you don't have to be in favor of order and hierarchy to be part of the Abrahamic tradition. There are plenty of wild, mystical sects in all three religions that see the Holy Spirit as a wild, untamed thing that can't be captured perfectly by books and priests. The Sufi aren't very orderly, for example.
But yes, I was deliberately trying to be counterintuitive with some of my selections, so that this is more than just alignment. Dividing everything along strict alignment-based lines seems boring.
They're a sect founded on Ysgard by a deva of Tyr called Unity-of-Rings. They teach that gifts and other good deeds come back to reward the giver. Some of them give for the sake of generosity, while others give because they know they will eventually receive. They're originally from Planes of Chaos; see Chapter 3 of the PSCS for the latest version.
Indeed. Some might interpret him as a universal deity, while others might see him as human-only, believing that only humans were created in his image.
Maybe those gods who aren't historical rivals of his followers. I can see a cool, businesslike relationship between Yahweh and Vishnu - neither likes the other, but they respect one another and can work together on common goals. The same with Shang-ti (of the Chinese pantheon).
So is just about every other creator god - the dwarves say the stars are sparks from Moradin's forge, the Norse say Odin, Vili, and Ve made the stars from the fires of Muspelheim, the dragons say Io made the entire universe, creating first the First Void from which all potential sprang. Stars aren't a big deal, anyway; they're just little glowing dots on the surface of the sky. Making the sun is much more impressive.
Thanks again Rip Van wormer for excellent points!:D And yes I'm trying to go for beyond the alignement aspect (That's why I'm asking all these questions)
On the signers aspect: True but that's not my point, my point is on splitting the signers into two factions one mainstream Signers others who start believing that Yawevh is THE center of the universe..
On the doomguard point: I agree, I read the Faction's manifesto again and it makes sense. Actually with that point clarified, I'm going to create a doomguard christian cleric Npc Who's actually trying to bring about the book of revelations
:evillaughOn the chaositect aspect: Good point also, the Catharis and other heresies stand as a good example. It does make sense that thechaositects would be devided on the issue
On the non-human worshipers: I'm pleased that you agree that my interpretation is'nt as insane at it seemed when I thought it up. I'm came up with this when thinking about the tower of Babel. What if the split was along more then just language lines;) with this perpectives, it will help one of my pcs to create a half-fey sufi mystic (long story)
On the other God aspect: Makes sense, I'm building God as a very complex deity in Planescape therms and it makes sense. I can see Vishnu and Shiangti working with him on matter such as planar order, keeping the material plane intact etc. Plus if they actually interact with him, it might be a nice direction the pcs might take (trying to convince one of the Gods to give them an audience, they want to take to someone who actually talked to him)
On the star aspect: Also agree with Rip an Wormer many Gods claim to have created the stars.
More questions: I wan't to keep God mysterious, so I'm building that he never actually appears in person except as dreams, or to prophets. Basically since the quests entails tracking the truth about God's message across the planes. It will complicate matters that they can't directly talk to him.
to make matter worse, When God really did have something to say, he would send his messenger the Archangel Daniel. If God talks to you directly then something VERY VERY important is about to happen (like Moses leading the Jews out of Egypt or the great flood something like that). Not only that but this would be good because it could explain why his faith has'nt spread across many material planes. Many mortals would be frustrated that they can't speak to him directly or see him (some would even doubt he exists) Mostly it would complicate matter for the Pcs trying to find the information they need as everything would be at best second hand information.
Yes my campaign will be very complicated. otherwise, it would'nt be a Planescape Game...
Another question: On the angelic choirs, It makes sense that most of them would be Archons. I'm also going to add some Gardinals to his list of allies (to represent the bull, eagle and lion headed angels of some early abrahamic mythologies).
Does that make sense ?
Last question for now:Any suggestions on possible prestige classes for his worshipers? I think church inquisitor, sacred exorcist, apostle of peace, I can see mystic theurges (for Kabalistic practioners and gnostics), evangelist would be a natural of course. Any other suggestions ?
Thanks again everybody:D
...Another question: On the angelic choirs, It makes sense that most of them would be Archons. I'm also going to add some Gardinals to his list of allies (to represent the bull, eagle and lion headed angels of some early abrahamic mythologies).
Does that make sense ?
I'd just introduce bull, eagle, and lion-headed archons. Tome archons were originally portrayed as eagle-headed, and sword archons were originally portrayed as lion-headed. The bull-headed archons could perhaps be variant warden archons.
I'd just introduce bull, eagle, and lion-headed archons. Tome archons were originally portrayed as eagle-headed, and sword archons were originally portrayed as lion-headed. The bull-headed archons could perhaps be variant warden archons.
True, but I'm thinking also from a planescape perspective. Most likely that Yaveh/Allah/God's faith would be mostly confined to the Earth material plane. Knowing this with the fact that planar travel will be very, very rare on this material plane (and even more mysterious, or at least till the Pcs get some real lessons on planar magic when they actually reach one of the other Planes;) ). From this point of view, nobody on earth would really know what Yaveh/Allah/God would have been doing on the other Planes (material and otherwise for that matter). Even most Planar travelers would be completely at a lost when he is mentioned. Some might point to Enki and Enlil (your idea on the Babylonian pantheon is too good to waste). Others might point to inexplicable miracles that can't be linked to any powers they can name. Even other Gods might be silent on the matter (some out of respect and fear, most other's out of ignorance)
Maybe he managed to convince a few Guardinals that he actually created them. This begs a questions, do celestials or outsiders know who actually created them ?
Specifically, what about Guardinals and Archons ?:Also it might have been the beginning of his emergence across other Planes. Imagine, suddenly a Gang of Leonals, Eagle Guardinals (don't know the name but seem to remember they existed in second ed) and bull guardinals (probably will have to create those) leaving Elysium and jumping to Celestia as a new angelic choir ( this part is still very sketchy at best in my mind). There's no telling what the reaction might be across the planes...
Any thoughts ?...
Eagle Guardinals (don't know the name but seem to remember they existed in second ed)
Avorals.
On the doomguard point: I agree, I read the Faction's manifesto again and it makes sense. Actually with that point clarified, I'm going to create a doomguard christian cleric NPC Who's actually trying to bring about the book of revelations
That is an awesome idea.
That is an awesome idea.
I don't usually post just to say this, but: seconded. I'd like to see this interpretation when you're finished with it.
That is an awesome idea.
Glad you both you and Jem agree, Still have to work on the details of Yaveh/God/Allah as a power and his relationship with the planes but I'll be sure to post more on that priest when he's ready to receive suggestions.
If I achieve what I'm shooting for to be sure he'll be one of coolest characters I've ever come up with.
That said to speed up the process, I'm always open for suggestions
But seeing that his priests don't get any spells anymore, he must be either an over deity or a dead god.
But that seems of no interest as the same would be true for the asgardian pantheon.
(Well except for the sons of Thor, as they have survived ragnarok)
So statting him out as a D&D god is tricky.
His first commandment told his chosen people not to worship any gods beside him.
Such implying that there are others, which put's him not so much at odds with all the other gods in the game as one might fear in the first moment.
As he happily ignores his own rules all the time and practicly does everything on a whim I would guess him to be chaotic neutral.
(Which might also explain why our hierachic lawful church doesn't have any access to spells)
if you assume Jesus to be a lesser god of his pantheon, you might even be able to justify his home to be on one of the good aligned planes. (Limbo doesn't feel right)
Of course there is the question for domains.
Creation is an obvious choice, Knowledge seems to be good too, as he had wuite an amount of prophets(and is supposingly all knowing)
and maybe Strength and War (he was quite into vengeance)
Hm, interesting idea.
But seeing that his priests don't get any spells anymore, he must be either an over deity or a dead god.
But that seems of no interest as the same would be true for the asgardian pantheon.
(Well except for the sons of Thor, as they have survived ragnarok)
So statting him out as a D&D god is tricky.
His first commandment told his chosen people not to worship any gods beside him.
Such implying that there are others, which put's him not so much at odds with all the other gods in the game as one might fear in the first moment.
As he happily ignores his own rules all the time and practicly does everything on a whim I would guess him to be chaotic neutral.
(Which might also explain why our hierachic lawful church doesn't have any access to spells)
if you assume Jesus to be a lesser god of his pantheon, you might even be able to justify his home to be on one of the good aligned planes. (Limbo doesn't feel right)
Of course there is the question for domains.
Creation is an obvious choice, Knowledge seems to be good too, as he had wuite an amount of prophets(and is supposingly all knowing)
and maybe Strength and War (he was quite into vengeance)
I must confess to disagreement on some of your comments.
1- On the spell issue: His clerics will get spells, it's a fantasy earth setting. Mostly, spells will be harder to use but they can happen, as miracles, manifestations. So spells will be restricted because planar travel will only be possible at certain precise locations (As per my previous posts)
2-On the dead god Issue: See number 1. also that's exactly the point, he won't be a dead god in my campaign, he's going to be a very active force ( even if it is through proxies, angels, prophets, etc.). that's not to mention that there is a near infinite number of supposed visitations, appreances of the virgin Mary, angelic sightings etc. chronicled from medieval and renaissance texts. not to mention the recorded examples of visions from Sufi mystics etc..
3- on the other gods issue:That's true to some extent. Early Abrahamic traditions (mostly from archeological evidence) show that the early versions on the religion did believe that other gods existed but that only Yaveh/Allah/God should be worshipped. It also fits in the context on the Babylonian, Sumerian and Egyptian influences. Also in the context of my game, The pcs will to end the religious dissentions of Renaissance Europe by tracking down his true message across the planes. They will definetly have to deal with other faiths and maybe even question the place of other gods in his faith.
4-On the alignement issue: I disagree, readin the bible, he rarely acts on a whim mostly he judges his faitfull according to his edicts. I'd see as either Lawful Neutral or Lawful good. Saying he acts on a whim and goes against his own edicts is ignoring the reason he acts like he does (his followers disobey him, ignore him, go against his edicts, etc.). Take Sodom and Gomorra, the 12 plagues, etc. If you ask me he seems consistent if much harsher and more violent in the Old testament...
That said it might be an indication of a transition from lawful neutral to lawful good.
5- on the domain issue: I agree on the knowledge domain. I think basic priest should have access to: Good, Knowledge, Protection, Exorcism and healing.
Other domains could be given for prestige classes and hierarchs ( I might design prestige classes specifically for the game)
Here are a few examples:Inquisitors: Prestige access to the inquisition domain
Jewish Kabalists and Gnostics: Prestige access to the magic domainà
Mystics (wether Christian, sufi, etc): Mysticismà
Any comments would be useful...
On 4. A god that doesn't obey his rules, create impossible rules etc. doesn't seem to be that lawful to me.
But I get your point against chaos, so maybe neutral on that axis.
For your kabalists..there is the small matter of the "You shall not suffer a witch to live" bit.
And while I certainly can see the reason behind the spells in that domain, the Granted Power doesn't seem fitting.
Kabalists don't go around and use wands of fireball.
I would reserve Good for those worshippers of Jesus (or the Jesus aspect for those priests who believe too much in monotheistic aproach to their god)
The healing domain is a bit tricky. As healing was a big part of the miracles, it could be just that the saints used a load of spontaneous cure spells.
And of course saints are a interesting aspect. Do you go all catholic and make them quasi deities (or even demi deities) or a more sane aproach and make them just important figures of history.
(Even if it would be interesting if Santa Klaus would be real in the game world
)Ah well 1 and 2 only made sense if you take our nowaday world into the context as well, so they don't really matter in your game.
On 4. A god that doesn't obey his rules, create impossible rules etc. doesn't seem to be that lawful to me.
But I get your point against chaos, so maybe neutral on that axis.
For your kabalists..there is the small matter of the "You shall not suffer a witch to live" bit.
And while I certainly can see the reason behind the spells in that domain, the Granted Power doesn't seem fitting.
Kabalists don't go around and use wands of fireball.
I would reserve Good for those worshippers of Jesus (or the Jesus aspect for those priests who believe too much in monotheistic aproach to their god)
The healing domain is a bit tricky. As healing was a big part of the miracles, it could be just that the saints used a load of spontaneous cure spells.
And of course saints are a interesting aspect. Do you go all catholic and make them quasi deities (or even demi deities) or a more sane aproach and make them just important figures of history.
(Even if it would be interesting if Santa Klaus would be real in the game world
Thanks for your comments Elena :D
I must confess however that I don't understand your point that God goes against his own edicts ( could you cite examples, in respectful manner of course). I've got a generally very knowledgeable repertoire on bible information but I can't find good examples of inconstitencies. Then again it might just be a question of interpretation. That's why I'd like a few examples to look them up.
He does seem like a harsh LG to me...
As for the magic a mysticism domains. Remember, God in my campaign will be the same deity for Christians, Jews and Muslims. Each of these faiths would represent different aspects of the faith, different branches etc. That's the whole point of the campaign, the Pcs realize that they are all taking about the same God and also realize that they don't have any definite proof about whose got it right (Wich is basically true, Judaism, Islam, and Christianity all aknowledge they follow the same God). They try to find the truth and end religious conflict (since it's around t he renaissance, they deal with the emerging protestants, heresies and other problems). It's basically a story center around religion in during the renaissance. From that perspective, certain commandements might have been altered, misinterpreted etc.
Healing just seems logical because healing and redemption are such big parts of the faith the simply relagating it to sponteaneous casting seems distasteful (I might just remove the ability to cast sponteaneous healing spells entirely (instead all spells would have to be prepared, that who force priest to pray for their spells carefully and prevent them from simply healing on the fly, thus keeping it miraculous...)
Also remember, While mainstream catholicism might disaprove of magic. Islam, Gnostism, and Judaism have quite different points of view. As example I mention Islamic alchemist, The jewish Kabbal as a whole, the whole Gnostic tradition. Not to mention Hermetic Magic, European alchemy (most where in fact catholics) etc. Clearly, the magic issue is far from black and white. Then there is the classic issue of christian miracles...
On the saints issue. Most will have been important historical figures and nothing more but other will have been true cleric (either single classed, or prestige classes), paladins etc.
A few exmples would be St-Francis of Assisi, Mohammed, Moses etc
As well as historical figures le Torquemada, Charlemagne etc
I'll plan on dosing my true clerics and paladins very carefully to keep them flavorful...
It's all a question of Balance...
Thanks for your comments Elena :D
It's Elana. But as that mistake is so common I'm willing to forgive you :P
I must confess however that I don't understand your point that God goes against his own edicts ( could you cite examples, in respectful manner of course). I've got a generally very knowledgeable repertoire on bible information but I can't find good examples of inconstitencies. Then again it might just be a question of interpretation. That's why I'd like a few examples to look them up.
Ah, examples. well I think smiting cities and causing big floods might go against the whole you shall not kill thing
(Of course you could argue rules for others are different from rules for himself. What is wih that Jericho issue? There his people had to kill, while at the same time they were a commandment against killing)
As for the magic a mysticism domains. Remember, God in my campaign will be the same deity for Christians, Jews and Muslims. Each of these faiths would represent different aspects of the faith, different branches etc. That's the whole point of the campaign, the Pcs realize that they are all taking about the same God and also realize that they don't have any definite proof about whose got it right (Wich is basically true, Judaism, Islam, and Christianity all aknowledge they follow the same God). They try to find the truth and end religious conflict (since it's around t he renaissance, they deal with the emerging protestants, heresies and other problems). It's basically a story center around religion in during the renaissance. From that perspective, certain commandements might have been altered, misinterpreted etc.
Well, I had thought that that part was obvious, but I guess in todays times you can't assume any knowledge at all
Healing just seems logical because healing and redemption are such big parts of the faith the simply relagating it to sponteaneous casting seems distasteful (I might just remove the ability to cast sponteaneous healing spells entirely (instead all spells would have to be prepared, that who force priest to pray for their spells carefully and prevent them from simply healing on the fly, thus keeping it miraculous...)
I'm not saying that it doesn't belong, I was just justifying why I haven't put it in.
Also remember, While mainstream catholicism might disaprove of magic. Islam, Gnostism, and Judaism have quite different points of view. As example I mention Islamic alchemist, The jewish Kabbal as a whole, the whole Gnostic tradition. Not to mention Hermetic Magic, European alchemy (most where in fact catholics) etc. Clearly, the magic issue is far from black and white. Then there is the classic issue of christian miracles...
I understand quite well, what you mean, it's just that a lot of the arcane magic in D&D doesn't fit the feel for actual magic traditions.
And the magic domain grants the power to use arcane items like a wizard. So it is just the granted power of the domain that I don't think fits in well.
On the saints issue. Most will have been important historical figures and nothing more but other will have been true cleric (either single classed, or prestige classes), paladins etc.
A few exmples would be St-Francis of Assisi, Mohammed, Moses etc
As well as historical figures le Torquemada, Charlemagne etc
I'll plan on dosing my true clerics and paladins very carefully to keep them flavorful...
It's all a question of Balance...
What I wanted to know is what you intend to be their current status. Did they just pass on to their afterlife, or do they still have special positions in Jehovas realm?
((And for the record, I have casted protection from normal missiles, before I said Jehova :P )
If Yahwe is granted a position as overdeity I demand the same for Odin and Zeus.
Just because he is currently worshipped by the mainstream religions doesn't make him more important.
Oh and DwarfPcfan, are you going to make just a basic ouline, or do you go all the way and be as rude as the official game designers and give him actual stats and class levels?
Odin and Zeus are anagolous concepts, but their dogma (as far as I am aware) is not quite as strict (largely because it hasn't come down whole or fully developed to us). Certainly, there were Pagan Philosophers who considered Zeus to have the same role, with all other Deities being reflections of his Godhead. I don't know about Odin. It wouldn't be too great a stretch to make them all one in the same, but a number of inconsistant stories (for all three) would have to be ironed out.
Looking at DwarfPCFan's initial posts and the constraints of his Campaign World / Plot, the above seems the most appropriate depiction of God/Allah/Yavhe to my mind. It's just my opinion, but there you go.
I am not claiming he is, I'm just saying if he is used in the way he is depicted in Christian Religion, then he is the source of everything, creator of the Universe (and Multiverse no doubt) and all other Deities are nothing more than Demons in disguise, who derive their power similarly from that one Godhead. He would be more than an Over Deity. To be clear, I'm not saying that is the way it should be, I'm saying that would be in line with Christian dogma.
Many greater gods, and almost all pantheon heads, allegedly made the world according to their own personal mythologies.
the 1st one makes only sense if there are other gods.
(No need to tell his people that they shouldn't worship other gods if their were none)
Coming to think of it, if he created the world out of chaos, does that make our universe a pocket dimension in Limbo?
(okay, probably not, but it would be an easily formable starting point)
I'll give my opinion to each person in turn.
Elana: on the alignement issue. The idea of causing floods, smiting, etc, does not make him unlawful. It's actually a reflection that he is lawful. It's clearly stated in the bible that "vengeance is the providence of the Lord" and that only God has the right to choose over life and death, etc. Judeo-christian religions are quite clear that God is the ultimate judge, jury and executioner. Thus his sending floods, plagues etc, is a reflection of his lawful nature rather then a reflection against it...
On spell and magic issue: I totally agree that the magic system in classic DnD does not exactly fit the feel of "historical" magic, I'll refer you to my latest post in my other thread "earth in planescape" for a more detailed answer. But for a short answer, I'm going to slightly alter magic in my campaign with longer casting times, spellcasting checks, Incantations (magical rituals per unearthed arcana and Urban arcana), and eliminating sponteaneous spellcasting entirely except for magical races like fey, trolls, djinn, etc...
On the saint issue: Sorry, did'nt get your question. Mostly they will have passed to heaven (A holy city in the fifth mounting heaven of Celestia). Quasi-deities would not work in the concept because God is clearly the only god in judeo-christian theology. However, Angel and Saint worship were preominent traditions of the middle-ages and the renaissance. To reflect this very devout worshipers might get certain minor bonuses on certain holy days (not actual spells, something like a +1 to spellcasting checks on certain areas associated with the saint, etc), maybe prestige classes associated with them etc...
Saints will simply be people who lived saintly lives and were properly rewarded in heaven as well as some having actual powers in life. Since characters won't be planeshifting into God's realm anyway (unless they die of course...), stats for saints and will be useless, but for logical pursposes see my earlier posts in this thread. Some saints will have positions in heaven like Saint Peter, St-Paul etc. But mostly they are enjoying a just reward in heaven. Most of the duties of running heaven will be up to God and the Angelic Choirs. Also, I don't like giving stats to gods, (particularly God/Allah/Yaveh). So it's going to be an outline, no actual stats (the pcs won't fight him, that's not the point...). In fact not deities they might encounter in my campaign will have stats, giving stats to gods robs them of their divinity in my mind..
I will make stats for Archangels however for storyline purposes (When I mean stats, I mean stats in the loose sense of Asmodeus, Orcus, Primus, Zaaman Rul, etc...). Basically the archangels Micheal, Daniel, Gabriel, etc will be creatures on par with the Celestial Hebdonad of the 7 mounting heavens.
Hope that answers your questions Elana...
Mathew as a loose outline, God/Yaveh/Allah will most likely be a greater power with a divine rank around 20-21 as a loose outline to compare with other Gods present in earth religions (Zeus, Shiangti, Odin etc). As the leader of three major Religions where he is the only God, he easily matches most other gods present on earth easy. that's also to reflect the fact that he is an ardent opposer of false gods (wether God truly considers other gods false gods will of course up to the pcs to figure out...)Also, I'll make him independent from his worshipers for his powers (his power does not increase with additional worshipers). This would help to make him different from other pantheons (also to highten the tensions between God/Yaveh/Allah and other Pantheons (They fear him because they have no idea where his power comes from...).
Bob the Efreet That's also part of the mysteries the pcs will have to unravel (did he really create the world?...)
Hope that answers any questions you had...
Thanks for any comments that might follow....
Bob the Efreet That's also part of the mysteries the pcs will have to unravel (did he really create the world?...)
I was mostly contending the idea that he should be better than other gods like Zeus or Odin, because I don't feel his mythology supports such a position.
I was mostly contending the idea that he should be better than other gods like Zeus or Odin, because I don't feel his mythology supports such a position.
Wich is why the Pcs will have to figure it out, maybe he really did, maybe he did'nt. I want to keep the Pcs in the dark on the truth to emphasize the importance of Faith.
Plus and encounter with any deity will most likely have the pcs question their faith. (When someone like Zeus comes along, the pcs might just get the sudden urge to fall down on their knees and pray)
My aim is'nt to make God/Allah/Yaveh more powerful rather to make him interesting from a role-playing perspective (and as importantly, a Planescape Perspective), the story will surround his faith and the religious dissensions of the Renaissance. With that said, I do believe making him a greater deity with a divine rank around 20 should not be unbalancing considering the existence of powerful pantheons like the Asgardians, Egyptian and Greek pantheons also present on earth...
...
Also, I don't like giving stats to gods, (particularly God/Allah/Yaveh). So it's going to be an outline, no actual stats (the pcs won't fight him, that's not the point...). In fact not deities they might encounter in my campaign will have stats, giving stats to gods robs them of their divinity in my mind..
I couldn't agree more.
Besides it should be pointless as they should have at least about a zillion levels. (if a player can reach level 20 in a year, a god that had a few million years time should be a lot higher)
... as a loose outline, God/Yaveh/Allah will most likely be a greater power with a divine rank around 20-21 as a loose outline to compare with other Gods present in earth religions (Zeus, Shiangti, Odin etc). As the leader of three major Religions where he is the only God, he easily matches most other gods present on earth easy. that's also to reflect the fact that he is an ardent opposer of false gods (wether God truly considers other gods false gods will of course up to the pcs to figure out...)Also, I'll make him independent from his worshipers for his powers (his power does not increase with additional worshipers). This would help to make him different from other pantheons (also to highten the tensions between God/Yaveh/Allah and other Pantheons (They fear him because they have no idea where his power comes from...).....
Well, lot of deities are not dependent on worshippers.
Like the Aesir. (At least with them I remember that Deities and Demigods stated it, which of course makes sense, as they have created the humans
)And of course going strictly by D&D rules God (capital G) can't have a divine rank over 20 if you want to be any sign of godly power left on the world.
(Odin, Zeus and all the other chief deities seem to have 19 ranks, seemingly only the example monotheistic god, got 20 ranks)
okay, i think you got enough perspectives by now.
And I can hardly wait to see the final write up
Which is why the PCs will have to figure it out, maybe he really did, maybe he didn't. I want to keep the PCs in the dark on the truth to emphasize the importance of Faith.
Yeah. I think I tumble to what you're going for, and it sounds like a cool idea.
And christians claiming that there are no other gods, should have a look at the ten commandments again.
the 1st one makes only sense if there are other gods.
(No need to tell his people that they shouldn't worship other gods if their were none)
Veh? It's hardly a difficult task to find contradictory passages in the Bible, it's a self contradictory composite. However, it is well established in Christian dogma what is the nature of these other gods. Christianity doesn't deny the existence of supernatural powers, just their nature as True Gods. You get the same sort of power disparity in the Illiad between Zeus and the other Olympians. Christian dogma just takes things a few steps further (a move paralleled by those Pagan philosophers who considered all polytheist Deities to be reflections of the one Godhead of Zeus, from whom then all power flowed).
There are plenty of fun ways to play with these ideas (and their variations) and incorporate elements of them into Planescape, especially since the true nature of the Multiverse remains unrevealed (and so it should remain). Keeping the players in the dark is truly the best approach to emphasise the importance of faith, the real question is whether the Dungeon Master knows or needs to know what is the true nature of the Multiverse.
the real question is whether the Dungeon Master knows or needs to know what is the true nature of the Multiverse.
Only if said truth is going to be used somehow in the campaign.
Kabalists don't go around and use wands of fireball.
Actually, the Zohar (classic work of Kabbala) mentions the Pulsa diNura, "lashes of fire," as a curse to be invoked against sinners. %^)
I think Islamic alchemists and Jewish kabbalists would make interesting character classes for an Earthlike fantasy game. There are plenty of other mystics to use for priestlike and magelike classes, too: Sufi mystics (where real-world mythology gets its 'dervish' imagery from), the Zoroastrian predecessors of the Abrahamic faiths, etc.
And don't forget the villains! Satanism as any sort of actual religion is a modern concept (in the old days, "devil worship" was just worshiping a foreign god, because foreign gods were actually devils, hi Baal), but in a fantasy campaign could be legit. Ha-Satanas, who tempts Jesus, might have actually been an angel at the time, rather than a servant of evil. The Bible refers to the Witch of Endor, who divined via a familiar spirit, and the book of Enoch to fallen angels who consorted with human women. The Jews have Lilith and a whole hierarchy of demons in inverted relationship to the angels of the Otz Chaim.
Islam is definite about the devil's status as a fallen angel, Iblis, and his sin, disobedience (refusing to bow to man), although admittedly God put him in a nasty spot by first ordering him not to submit to any but God. A sect called the Yazidis worships a "Heptad" of seven heavenly angels, lead by the Peacock Angel, who has the same response to the matter but instead of being cast out by God for disobedience to the second command is rewarded for his adherence to the first. Not only does this nicely reflect the possibility that they're in at least intermittent communication with the Seven Archons of Mount Celestia, it also puts an interesting twist on religious uncertainty in the setting: Yazidis consider themselves Islamic, but other Muslims consider them devil-worshipers, since the Peacock Angel's other name is Shaytan...
By way of blasphemous texts, there's the Testament of Solomon on the names of angels and the summonings of demons, which in a fantasy campaign could be a resource for actual summoners; the Book of Enoch mentioned before, and for Christians the lost, recently uncovered Gnostic Gospel of Judas. Also, Gnostics actually put another being -- Abraxas -- above God. Their beliefs always struck me more as a kind of druidism in d20 terms, with the focus of their faith being an all-embracing oneness that supposedly surpasses even good and evil.
I may have missed the point here, but it just seems to be a lot of hassle to try and flush out numeric stats when what you really want is the idea of a deity for PCs to follow or to oppose.
(DvR doesn't mean much powerwise anyhow. It's just nice to have some number to see where he falls in compared with other deities)
I'm pretty sure that somewhere in this thread it was mentioned, that he won't stat him out.
(DvR doesn't mean much powerwise anyhow. It's just nice to have some number to see where he falls in compared with other deities)
True, I mentionned I would'nt stat God/Yaveh/Allah in any way besides a description for clerics and a divine rank as comparaison with other Gods earlier
Anyway, here is the first write up of several ideas I worked into my games. As a first installement, here's a table for use by cleric
God/Yaveh/Allah
The Word, the Alpha and the Omega, the Father in Heaven, the Almighty
LG Greater Power, Divine Rank 20
Domains: Good, Exorcism, Glory, Mysticism, Healing, Protection, magic
Favored Weapon: None
Portfolio: Redemption, Evangelism, healing of the sick, protection of the weak, Unity, communion.
Dogma: God/Allah/Yaveh's dogma can be seen as contradictory in nature (mostly because of shisms, new translations of old texts, religious conflict, etc) but recurent elements remain. first and foremost any worshipper of God will worship no other deities but him. Second followers will honor their families and love them. Third, followers will not shed blood needlessly and always work for peace. Forth, followers will not steal, cheat or lie and strive for truth always. Five, followers will spread the faith werever they hold and proudly display their alleigeance to their god, neither will they fear martyrdom or punishment in performing their religious duties. Six, followers will not engage in carnal acts outside of marriage. Seven, followers will be humble. Eight, followers will honor all holy days to pray and fast. Nine, followers will combat and expose agents of evil wherever they go. Ten, followers will heal the sick, give to the needy and redeem any they can.
Associated Prestige classes: Church Inquisitor, Sacred Exorcist, Evangelist, Apostle of Peace, Visionary,
So how does that look ?
Also what book are the domains exorcism and mysticism in?
I want to have a look at those.
It is Bible cannon that worshipers who use the Bible are more powerful than the demons of Hell. Perhaps God could have Power in his porftolio, or Supreme?
True, might be worth it to change his domains a little with that aspect...
And Elana, exorcism and mysticism are domains presented in Complete Divine and Spell compendium (having been updated from the 3.0 book defenders of the Faith).
O.K I'll update the write up with changes in bold itallic
God/Yaveh/Allah
The Word, the Alpha and the Omega, the Father in Heaven, the Almighty
LG Greater Power, Divine Rank 20
Domains: Good, Exorcism, Glory, Mysticism, Healing, Law, Protection, magic
Favored Weapon: None
Portfolio: Redemption, Evangelism, generousity, Unity, communion, Supremacy of rulership, holy law, love,Divine justice
Dogma: God/Allah/Yaveh's dogma can be seen as contradictory in nature (mostly because of shisms, new translations of old texts, religious conflict, etc) but recurent elements remain. first and foremost any worshipper of God will worship no other deities but him. Second followers will honor their families and love them. Third, followers will not shed blood needlessly and always work for peace. Forth, followers will not steal, cheat or lie and strive for truth always. Five, followers will spread the faith werever they hold and proudly display their alliegeance to their god, neither will they fear martyrdom or punishment in performing their religious duties. Six, followers will not engage in carnal acts outside of marriage. Seven, followers will be humble and respectful. Eight, followers will honor all holy days in accordance to proper ritual. Nine, followers will combat and expose agents of evil wherever they go. Ten, followers will heal the sick, give to the needy and redeem any they can. Eleven, Followers will respect legitimate authority who's rulership does not defy any previously mentionned edicts
Associated Prestige classes: Church Inquisitor, Sacred Exorcist, Evangelist, Apostle of Peace, Visionary,
Further more here's a sample of the changes I've made to the magic systems for the setting:
Casting a spell: Arcane spells require a spellcraft check DC 10+spell level+ the number of additional slots a metamagic would add
Example: a character casting a stilled lightning bolt spell must succeed a DC 14 spellcasting check (10+3 for 3rd level spell+1 for still spell feat)
Synergy: Arcane casters with 10 or more ranks in knowledge religion get a +2 bonus to their spell casting check
Special:The spell focus feat and greater spell focus feats grant a +2 to all spellcasting checks
Also I'd like some suggestions on how much casting times should be improved to match more with the mythological spell casting?
More later
Further more here's a sample of the changes I've made to the magic systems for the setting:
Casting a spell: Arcane spells require a spellcraft check DC 10+spell level+ the number of additional slots a metamagic would add
Example: a character casting a stilled lightning bolt spell must succeed a DC 14 spellcasting check (10+3 for 3rd level spell+1 for still spell feat)
Synergy: Arcane casters with 10 or more ranks in knowledge religion get a +2 bonus to their spell casting check
Special:The spell focus feat and greater spell focus feats grant a +2 to all spellcasting checks
Basically, this simply makes Earth a plane with slightly impeded magic; metamagic feats already change the effective level of a spell for such purposes, and an "impeded magic" plane makes this check at 20+level.
Also I'd like some suggestions on how much casting times should be improved to match more with the mythological spell casting?
More later
Well, there are quite a lot of different ways to cast spells in various mythologies, so it depends on what type of mythology you're using.
Frankly, I'd like to see something a lot more colorful than just a Spellcraft check. The reason all these magical traditions evolved on our real Earth is that people were trying to codify the rules of the supernatural and find ways to connect with that realm, hoping that the next magic word or number or potion would do it. Perhaps on a fantasy Earth, kabbala and alchemy and voodoo dolls and the like are produced because that's the only way to do magic: through a focus.
Picture this: you have one Spellcraft skill for each of these magical traditions. The Spellcraft check you describe only needs to be made once, but this is in the process of creating a focus for a specific spell the mage knows. A primitive shaman produces a small fetish; a kabbalist writes a parchment that he can put into a phylactery or other piece of clothing; a Catholic priest carves a medallion with the name of the spell's governing saint; a Sufi mystic produces a calligraphed request of the spell's governing angel. Thereafter, to cast that spell, the mage requires access to the focus, which is involved in some way, usually presented with a salutation or prayer or some such. Casting a spell, now, becomes a matter of having invested the elbow grease beforehand.
Particularly rare or powerful spells, naturally, might require equally imposing ingredients for their focus; plane-shifting off of Earth might require ingredients from the plane in question, making it nearly impossible! This would also explain the popularity of alchemy and enchantment; items are already involved with spells anyway, and these have their own benefits.
For example, you might use the following SRD 0-level wizard spells:
Resistance
Detect Poison
Detect Magic
Read Magic
Daze
Disrupt Undead
Touch of Fatigue
Arcane Mark, invisible only
From the level 5 spells:
Break Enchantment
Dismissal
Planar Binding, Lesser
Telepathic Bond
Dominate Person
Feeblemind
Hold Monster
Mind Fog
Symbol of Sleep
Dream
False Vision
Nightmare
Shadow Evocation (iffy... but intriguing! Perhaps completely harmless to those that disbelieve)
Magic Jar
Symbol of Pain
Waves of Fatigue
Permanency
And from the level 9:
Mage’s Disjunction
Gate
Foresight
Dominate Monster
Hold Monster, Mass
Power Word Kill
Shades (again, iffy, but intriguing!)
Weird
Astral Projection
Energy Drain
Soul Bind
Wail of the Banshee
Etherealness
Time Stop
Wish
Of course, Gate, Astral Projection, and Etherealness have their own status in the world you're creating.
Real-world religions and magical traditions are discussed in the books GURPS Religion, GURPS Spirits, and GURPS Cabal, published by Steve Jackson Games. The mechanics aren't d20, but they're well-researched and the historical material and discussion of the principles of magic -- from Hermetic philosophy to the social and psychological underpinnings of laws like the Law of Sympathy and the Law of Names -- apply equally well to any system. (Actually, I know of at least one GURPS conversion of Planescape and have considered doing my own. A system as universal as GURPS lends itself really well to a multiworld setting like Planescape.)
The idea of a spell casting check came up when I noticed that many traditions require elaborate rituals that don't actually work on every occasion (most of the time it is explained as the spirts refusing to grant the blessing or whatever)
I like that focus idea. But it still seems to simplistic to reflect real-world magical traditions of earth. Most magical tradions on earth have a distinctly ritualistic aspect that does not translate well to Dnd mechanics.
I've got most of the fluff worked through but it's really the mechanics for magic that are killing me.
I've started over five times and ended up throwing away I wrote on that part. Either it's too simplistic or it strides so far away from DnD that it gives me headaches.
That said I come up with the idea of spell casting checks as a simple methode but it does seem to be against the concept of traditional magic "groans"
I don't have access to any gurps material.
Well back to the drawing board:whatsthis ...
I would appreciate comments on my updated write up for the clerical table of God/Allah/Yaveh followers any might have...
Also any constructive suggestion on building a good magic system like what Jem proposed would be appreciated
Thanks everybody...
That way low lvel casters can only access certain spells, while following the rituals, while at the high levels they actually get a chance to do some magic that must seem like a miracle to their lesser peers.
And I would probably dissalow all spell levels over 4 (divine and arcane, if casters could get access to raise dead, certain miracles would look pale in comparision)
Hm, I guess I would go with the impeded magic trait for starters, but then introduce certain rituals that are "spellkeys" which lower the DC by some amount.
Rituals as spellkeys... makes complete sense to me. Explains why you have all these mystical systems running around. Different traditions' rituals also might lower different spells' DCs by different amounts, being more effective for the kind of spells more suited to that tradition.
And I would probably disallow all spell levels over 4 (divine and arcane, if casters could get access to raise dead, certain miracles would look pale in comparision)
Raise dead's pretty flashy yah, but then, the Lvl 9 "Foresight" spell isn't. ;^)
(And you also have a DM who normally treats player far too nice)
, kind of makes me think of Lara Raith in the Dresden files series (man... she is one hardcore lady)Spellkeys as rituals
that's a good idea... I'm writing that down. If I increase casting times to mimic the ritualistic aspect it might work as a simple method.
Alternatively, I don't think banishing all spells of 5th level or higher is totally accurate. I mean there are plenty of mythological examples of higher level spells:
- the siege of Jericho- earthquake spell
-Solomon binding the djinn to build the temple-planar binding
-Orpheus putting cerberus to sleep to enter the underworld- not sure on this one, but since it is cerberus well..
-Merlin's shapshifting powers-shapechange
Maybe I should simple allow certain spells for regular use and others only as "miraculous access" and with rare rituals, in other words at the DM's discretion pertaining the situation or as rewards for finding the proper rituals in lost tomes and old texts...
I'm writing down your suggestions and I'm going to work on it a bit.
I'd also appreciate a few comments on my updated cleric table for Priest of Yaveh/God/Allah...
Thanks everybody, till next time...
If you call the DM warns you about all traps and ambushes he has planned during the duration, and tells you how to best avoid getting hurt, a weak spell effect then you're right.
(And you also have a DM who normally treats player far too nice)
Didn't say it was weak. I said it wasn't flashy. :D No, believe me, you're reading someone who believes very strongly that you can have excellent and effective magic without having to toss around huge damage pools. Subtlety is a point in a spell's favor.
Alternatively, I don't think banishing all spells of 5th level or higher is totally accurate. I mean there are plenty of mythological examples of higher level spells:
- the siege of Jericho- earthquake spell
-Solomon binding the djinn to build the temple-planar binding
-Orpheus putting cerberus to sleep to enter the underworld- not sure on this one, but since it is cerberus well..
-Merlin's shapshifting powers-shapechange
Maybe I should simple allow certain spells for regular use and others only as "miraculous access" and with rare rituals, in other words at the DM's discretion pertaining the situation or as rewards for finding the proper rituals in lost tomes and old texts...
In order to make them accessible but rare, perhaps you could have these spells off the "standard" world spell list available only to people who put in the particular dedication to harness them, by making them spell-like abilities available to casters as feats (you're doing all this in 3.5, right? I don't think you've mentioned yet). Being able to use a given spell some number of times per day as a spell-like ability is nice, but a lot less common than simply knowing how to cast a spell, and requires a lot of personal training or dedication or whatever is required of a particular tradition. More importantly, it stays balanced between Earth and the planes -- the caster didn't have to pay anything extra to learn a spell available to normal casters on the plane. He has a certain prestige feat instead.
This is particularly nice for Orpheus, who is basically a kind of bard (it was his playing the worked his miracles), and shapechanging a number of times per day is basically wild shape for Merlin. Solomon was supposedly a very wise man who probably researched his own binding rituals and had his own prestige class that allowed him to do the summoning and bindings on a regular basis. The earthquake... well, that's pretty massive, and I might have made it the result of a Miracle spell, with its attendant XP cost and God's intervention. Ditto with stopping time worldwide for hours. (Joshua was burning the XP, wasn't he?)
Which indicates to me,that there are normally no 5th level spells, unless a deity specifically wants you to be able to cast such a spell.
Or maybe those spells just have more complicated spell keys.
I'm just throwing out suggestions here, after all. The specifics have a lot to do with the intended flavor of the campaign
I mean Circe turning Ulysse's crew into pigs, the oracle of Delph telling the furture etc.
The real question would be wether this means that magic is harder or simply that higher level people are alot rarer? (I know the question boils down to semantics, but I'm simply playing devil's advocate for constructive reasoning)?
the flavor of the campaign will be a fantastical earth campaign centered around the concepts of Faith versus truth and exploring mythology on earth (mostly European and Judeo-Islamic-Christian concepts). The game game will also explore the renaissance and the emergence of religious shisms (Reform, Counter-Reform etc.)
But back to the spell issue, maybe the reason there are so many few examples of high level magic is because high level people are very rare? ( I mean any examples of a fantastical display come from very important mythological figures).
Thinking about the spellkey idea, makes sense when you consider that the church possesses a lot of old texts from the early roman empire, loot captured from the crusades etc.
Considering this idea, Have any of you noticed that different world myths often have widely different displays of magic? Typical judaic/islamic/christian myth often showcase the power of exorcism, healing, purification etc. By comparaison, greek and roman myths tend to showcase prophecy, transformation and battle excellence (the favor of the Gods). In each case displays outside the typical range of the mythology are often fantastic miracles the happen only on very rare occasions (like the siege of Jericho or the 7 plagues).
this got me thinking we could build the idea that divine magic "spells" lists are different dependant on the religion. Judeo-Islamic-Christian religions might be especially knowledgeable of exorcism, blessing and purification etc but very limited on the elemental domains and other flashier domains (like destruction, time, etc).
How does a two part approach to divine magic sound? First high level characters are very rare (explaining the rarity of high level displays)
Second, clerics can normally only cast spells from their patron deities respective domains (Priest of God/Allah/Yaveh could only cast spells from the domains I mentioned in my clerical write up, etc). I increase casting times to reflect the ritualistic aspect. In such a system any spells from outside the clerics domains would require specific foci (as spell keys) and elaborate rituals to be used (Explains how Solomon was able to summon djinn to do his bidding), or deific intervention (Like the siege of Jericho for instances). Outside of that clerics do not have access to certain spells at all because these spells are outside of the concepts associated with the religion.
In effect, this would explain why by the Renaissance any flashy displays are almost unheard of, most true clerics in Europe are judeo/islamic/Christian clerics, even when they do work real magic, it's not flashy because that's outside of what spells they can normally access. Flashy displays would be the perview of miracles etc.
In a similar vein, arcane magic could be explained by having to tract down the specific foci, component and spellkey to execute a certain effect. Hermetic alchemists could spend whole years tring to find that one lost greek scroll to properly execute a complex divination spell etc. With longer casting times, it would fit the flavor
Furthermore, the eshew material component feat would be completely banned for arcane spellcasters and for divine spellcaster when castin spells from outside their domains
To the campaign, this would be fun because once the characters starts plane hopping when they find the proper gates a specific locations, they find whole worlds where magic is a lot more accessible but their own magic would be unchanged. The players are trying to tract down the truth about God's message, then they leave earth and the rules are suddenly different for everybody else, Why? Since that's the point of the campaign, finding the truth about God to end religious conflict.It bring a completely different layer of questioning, why is their own magic different? And for that matter if there is a pagan character in the party and hwe meets a follower of the same God from another material plane, why is his magic different.
Using these ideas, it could be great to keep the mystery and convince the pcs to delve further and further...
What do you guys think ? ....
And thanks again guys for your imput...
Of course if a cult doesn't have access to certain rituals to make a spell work, they just might forget that spell altogether.
So once they go planehopping and see other clerics use a certain spell, they might start prayig to their god to receive that spell.
(Of course at home they would have to deal with the spellcraft check for impeded magic as they don't know a proper ritual to use it at home)
of course on most planes they will pay for the higher versatility in spells with a reduced caster level.
(On 2nd thought, did that rule make the transition to 3rd edition? )
In effect, most clerics on earth would have very little knowledge of magic outside their own domains.
I want to keep the flavor of earth magic however. That's why I believe magic should have longer casting times and a more ritualistic approach. From a role-playing perpsective, I want the players to notice how their magic is significantly different from those of spell casters on other planes.
My players don't mind a challenge, our style is intensive role-playing but I still want to be fair. Any ideas on marginal benefits they might get to balance then against normal spellcaster (perhaps a bonus to overcome spell resistance, etc) ?
Another thought ame to mind earlier today. I might be worth it to ban certain classes because they don't fit the flavor of the campaign. Paladins and rangers would be restricted to their non-magical varaint in complete warrior. Spontaneous spellcasting would be banned altogether except to vetain magical races the won't be allowed to pcs most of the time (I might make exceptions with a very good idea and intense resrcitions) like fey, dwarves, spirits, trolls and giants (remember that in myths, these creatures are usually very smart and possessed of a whole suit of special abilities...)
Any thoughts...
My players don't mind a challenge, our style is intensive role-playing but I still want to be fair. Any ideas on marginal benefits they might get to balance then against normal spellcaster (perhaps a bonus to overcome spell resistance, etc) ?
Since rituals are designed to focus the mind and aid concentration by practice and habit, perhaps a spellcaster gets a bonus on Concentrate checks made during casting -- helpful especially since a longer spellcasting time means more opportunity for an enemy to interrupt a casting.
A longer spellcasting time suggests that you are constructing the spell more carefully. Increasing the DC of resisted spells seems like a reasonable result of this. Another possibility is a bonus to the Spellcraft checks some spells require.
And while it's not a bonus to the spellcaster, I might suggest that the more elaborate rituals give enemy spellcasters a bonus on Knowledge checks to identify a spell.
Another thought came to mind earlier today. I might be worth it to ban certain classes because they don't fit the flavor of the campaign. Paladins and rangers would be restricted to their non-magical varaint in complete warrior. Spontaneous spellcasting would be banned altogether except to vetain magical races the won't be allowed to pcs most of the time (I might make exceptions with a very good idea and intense resrcitions) like fey, dwarves, spirits, trolls and giants (remember that in myths, these creatures are usually very smart and possessed of a whole suit of special abilities...)
Any thoughts...
Oddly enough, I tend to find that restrictions on the kind of magic enhance the flavor provided by the remaining types; ditto with classes, so yeah, I like the idea. I've never liked the paladin as a class, anyway... historically, paladin was something approving that other people called you, a shining example among knights. You don't pick it up as a position.
So I figure something like a bonus equal to half their effective caster level on concentration checks might work.
I'm not sure how much the Dc should be increased by the method however
Any suggestions?
As for the increased spellcraft check a +5 do the Dc seems fair for casting the spell (benifiting the spellcaster) and a +5 to identifiying the spell by opposed spellcasters (would make sense)
As for the number of spellkey rituals know I figure something akin to the method wizards get new spells.
Something akin to starting with a fixed number of know spell keys of level 0 and level 1 (say three for level 1 spells +1 per point of wisdom modifier at level 1) then every time the Pc gains a new level in his cleric class he gets two additional spellkeys but only from the respective domains of his God
Spells outside their respective domains could only be learned by translating the proper ritual into the correct terms via a spellcraft check DC10+Spell level
Additionnally, clerics would be prohibited from learning spells from opposed domains of their respective faiths (Christian/Judaic/Muslim priest would be prohibited from learning spells with the evil descriptor as according to my previously published clerical table)
That said it seems to work mechnically but it leaves the door open to problems like it might give an unfair advantage to clerics compared to wizards since they would naturally have access to more spells then wizards (not to mention the better hit die and BAB)
It might be worth it to change the cleric class a little further, perhaps lowering the hit die to a D6 and a lower BaB.
Also this might make more sense considering that historical priests were definetly not holy fire spewing plate mail clab warriors.
that said, does it make sense? Should the wizard class be altered also?
I also have to admit at being completely at a lost with the druid class from a mechanical perspective. For flavor, I'm shifting them back to their original idea as animist priest such as the celtic druids, native shamans, etc instead of divine defenders of nature itself. Another aspect that might fit with the druid class would be for fey creatures such as Sidhe, nymphs etc (perhaps sprinkled with a few levels of sorcerer for a few arcane powers, I've statted before that Npcs might have access to certain classes the pcs won't because legendary creatures generally had a lot more access to occult powers then the heroes of such legends...)
Might be worth it to allow the shaman class from OA (with a few changes to flavor and mechanics of course) or the spirit shaman from complete divine (again with proper changes) to reflect members of the old faiths howerver (celtic religions, asgardian religion etc)
Any thought on that Part guys
Thanks in advance:D
I recently had the thought that Yahwes domain would fit nicely into the elemental plan of air.
(All those Angels sitting on clouds pictures are probably to blame)
it gives some reason for people to believe heaven would be above them. (maybe a few portals in the sky)
Also the Djinn do speak of the maker, which could easily be a reference to God. (And why would they woship him, if he isn't close at hand)
And christian hell reminds me a bit of the elemental plane of fire.
The main reason to put Yahwe on an inner plane would of course to be different from most other gods.
Now earth could be cut of from planar travel completely, except by those floating (and moving) portals in the sky, which nicely gives them the proper difficulty o go around and travel the planes.
(The first step would be locating a portal and get there somewhere, and that only gets them to the plane of Air, as they wo't know the plane shift spell)
I encourage you to counter the restrictions placed on wizardly spellcasting with some advantages of their limited system. No, I don't have any suggestions on the DC bonus for concentration, if that's what you want to use. It's your house system. I look forward to seeing what you have when you have something more complete to exhibit.
A bit unrelated to the current part of discussion..
I recently had the thought that Yahwes domain would fit nicely into the elemental plan of air.
(All those Angels sitting on clouds pictures are probably to blame)
it gives some reason for people to believe heaven would be above them. (maybe a few portals in the sky)
Also the Djinn do speak of the maker, which could easily be a reference to God. (And why would they woship him, if he isn't close at hand)
And christian hell reminds me a bit of the elemental plane of fire.
The main reason to put Yahwe on an inner plane would of course to be different from most other gods.
Now earth could be cut of from planar travel completely, except by those floating (and moving) portals in the sky, which nicely gives them the proper difficulty o go around and travel the planes.
(The first step would be locating a portal and get there somewhere, and that only gets them to the plane of Air, as they wo't know the plane shift spell)
Muslim mythology is actually quite clear that Djinn were created as free-willed beings of "smokeless fire". There's even a passage in the Coran that mentions that Allah sent Muhammad to bring word of God to humans and Djinn.
Anyway, I don't think placing God/Allah/Yaveh's domain on the plane of air would fit. The concept of angels sitting on clouds is actually mostly non-cannon (despite it's popularity and widespread reprensentation). Dogmatic christian beliefs describe heaven as a paradise of complete happiness and joy that could be described as a perfect eternal reflection of what life on earth would be like without sin and in the presence of God. Similar descriptions can be found in the Torah and the Coran.
Additionnally, Revelations describe God's realm as a holy city of Emeralds and Marble.
To me, this is very similar to descriptions of the Seven mountin heavens of Celestia (Even more so if you read Dantes Heaven, yes the book does exist, where Heaven is described as a perfect place with 7 layers, one for each virtue).
On the question of Hell, there's a similar pattern in Dante's Inferno where there is a lot more to hell then fire and Brimstone. Many texts describe hell as more of a place of eternal torture fitted to the sins of the individual.
That sounds a lot like the Nine Hells to me;)
Also from a Planescape perspective, Inner planes are neutral in relation to the Good/evil axis. It would'nt make sense for a LG greater power to establish his domain there.
Jem, I think you misinterpreted what I said earlier. the spell casting mechanics I proposed earlier would be the same for clerics and wizards
The only difference would be what spells are accessible.
And there's my problem. Since my system would make spellcasting slower and harder. A class with domain powers, turning, armor proficiency, and batter combat capability (not to mention more spells if I did my math right).
So how do I fix the other aspects of the cleric class to avoid giving and unfair advantage?
Would lowering the hit die to a d6, removing the armor proficiencies and giving them a Bab as a wizard be fair?
This would fit the flavor of priest even more to fit the mold of priests on earth...
But even then,wizards would still be slightly inferior since all they have is spells and metamagic feats. In a game using normal mechanics, wizards are just as powerful as clerics but in my current method, seems to me like wizards might be getting a slight shaft to divine characters. So any ideas to improve wizards slightly, like more skill points and class skills (something like 4+int modifier), bonuses to spellcraft,
Any ideas ?
Also, I'd like suggestions on my druid, shaman and spirit shaman question...
Well I'm going bak to my "Dm Cave" to work on these problems a little mre for the day
Thanks again for all your imput:D
till next time...
And dante is not a reliable source :P
And for putting him on an inner plane, if he created the prime world, and the outer planes came into existance later, as the belief of the primes spawned those, it would make perfect sense.
(And Djinn are good and Efreet evil, so you even have the conflict right there)
Muslim mythology is actually quite clear that Djinn were created as free-willed beings of "smokeless fire". There's even a passage in the Coran that mentions that Allah sent Muhammad to bring word of God to humans and Djinn.
Anyway, I don't think placing God/Allah/Yaveh's domain on the plane of air would fit. The concept of angels sitting on clouds is actually mostly non-cannon (despite it's popularity and widespread reprensentation). Dogmatic christian beliefs describe heaven as a paradise of complete happiness and joy that could be described as a perfect eternal reflection of what life on earth would be like without sin and in the presence of God. Similar descriptions can be found in the Torah and the Coran.
Additionnally, Revelations describe God's realm as a holy city of Emeralds and Marble.
To me, this is very similar to descriptions of the Seven mountin heavens of Celestia (Even more so if you read Dantes Heaven, yes the book does exist, where Heaven is described as a perfect place with 7 layers, one for each virtue).
On the question of Hell, there's a similar pattern in Dante's Inferno where there is a lot more to hell then fire and Brimstone. Many texts describe hell as more of a place of eternal torture fitted to the sins of the individual.
That sounds a lot like the Nine Hells to me;)
Also from a Planescape perspective, Inner planes are neutral in relation to the Good/evil axis. It would'nt make sense for a LG greater power to establish his domain there.
Jem, I think you misinterpreted what I said earlier. the spell casting mechanics I proposed earlier would be the same for clerics and wizards
The only difference would be what spells are accessible.
And there's my problem. Since my system would make spellcasting slower and harder. A class with domain powers, turning, armor proficiency, and batter combat capability (not to mention more spells if I did my math right).
So how do I fix the other aspects of the cleric class to avoid giving and unfair advantage?
Would lowering the hit die to a d6, removing the armor proficiencies and giving them a Bab as a wizard be fair?
This would fit the flavor of priest even more to fit the mold of priests on earth...
But even then,wizards would still be slightly inferior since all they have is spells and metamagic feats. In a game using normal mechanics, wizards are just as powerful as clerics but in my current method, seems to me like wizards might be getting a slight shaft to divine characters. So any ideas to improve wizards slightly, like more skill points and class skills (something like 4+int modifier), bonuses to spellcraft,
Any ideas ?
Also, I'd like suggestions on my druid, shaman and spirit shaman question...
Well I'm going bak to my "Dm Cave" to work on these problems a little mre for the day
Thanks again for all your imput:D
till next time...
Mages could just have their spell schools moved around. Explains why evocation types are more rare.
Well, I'm not actually saying you should put him on an inner plane, it was just a random thought.
And dante is not a reliable source :P
And for putting him on an inner plane, if he created the prime world, and the outer planes came into existance later, as the belief of the primes spawned those, it would make perfect sense.
(And Djinn are good and Efreet evil, so you even have the conflict right there)
Dante's description is nothing more then a work of poetry but it is a good description of many beliefs held about heaven and hell during his period. Dante was a notted theologist and scholar of his period, so despicte the fact that a lot of it is made up, his writings do contain many inspirations from actual litterature...
Furthermore, In christianity, while it's true that fire is often represented as part of hellish punishment, it's also a place of eternal torture, "gnashing teeth" according to the new testament, Additionally, many works describe hell as a place of eternal darkeness and painful solitude etc.
In parallel, Islam describes heaven in many ways, one as lake of fire, other times a place where sinners suffer statted to the thorns of a tree and forced to eat the trees bitter fruits etc.
Judaism is'nt as clear as Islam or Christianity on the subject of hell but they do mention a place called sheol or something like that that ressembles Hades in many aspects (not surprinsingly). All things considered I still think the Nine Hells are a better choice as the plane reprssenting Hell in Judeo-Islamic-Christian religions
Heaven also stands quite different in depictions from the sunny clouds in contemperary culture. A more accurate depiction is to the Graden of Eden or a place of eternal peace, satisfaction, etc in the presence of God. This is also present in Islamic depictions. Judaic Kabalism also describe heaven as a seven layered place watched over by different angels and prophets. Again this seems to me like a good depiction of the 7 mounting heaven of Celestia.
Additionally, from a Planescape Perspective, it's unclear wether the outer-planes existed before the prime material plane came into existence or afterwards but there are awhole score of beings that claim to have existed long before the prime material world or it's inhabitants came into existence. (Demon Princes, Arch Devils, Deities, Celestial Paragons, etc). Considering that fact, there's no real proof that the beliefs of the primes actually did span the planes (even if it'S true that their beliefs do have much power in shping them...)
From a campaign perspective, I want my players's (who will be characters from earth) first experience with the Planes to be a quite testing of their faith. As of such, it works well that they find a lot of evidence that God/Allah/Yaveh did not create everything that exists in reality. Thats not to mention the fact that other dieties might be encoutered to disprove the characters beliefs.
That said, Djinn will be used extensively in my game. Using Djinni vs Efreet as the representation of the djinn that stayed faithfull to Allah versus those that rebelled sounds good to keep up with Planescape Cannon. To keep up with accurate mythological references however, it might be worth it to make Effreeti have more variations in their usual alignements because efreeti is not the specific name for evil djinn in muslim mythology (most of the time it's actually marid, ironic really). Perhaps it could be worth it to have a few Efreet strongholds where those present are actually mostly LN and shifting Marid alignments so that greater number might actually have evil alignements.
That said, thanks for any comments people, they are really helpful:D
till next time...
I might not be that helpful, but it's fun to put out alternative ideas.
Plus it should make you think, so the end result will be well thought through
And you don't need Marid to be evil to make that impression. They are chaotic and don't care about humans much at all.
(Even the D&D description in the mauals of planes tell us that those marids on the prime like the pasttime of drowning sailors)
In regard to hell, I guess Earth people use that word like those on Krynn used Abyss.
(A name for all other planes except their own. (Well, those Earthlings have also an extra name for heaven, which might actually mean all the good aligned planes))
Actually, there are stats for Lucifer in an old issue of dragon called politics of hell. I saw someone's stats for Satan that were exactly the same.
Well, he's also statted up in the Tome of Horrors (Necromancer Games, distributed by White Wolf publishing)
YHWH? I'd either list him as a Ao / Io type overdeity, or simply give him Lvl 20 deity, with Epic levels in base classes.
Jesus / Yeshua (original Hebrew)? (What kind of Jewish mother would name her son a latin word meaning 'Son of Zeus'??? You just know HER mother never let her hear the end of THAT...) Well, Ed Greenwood, when creating the pantheon for the FR swiped Fritz Leiber's creation Issek of the Jug (the Broken God) and changed the name to Ilmater. Leiber has stated that Issek is actually Nehwon's avatar or manifestation of Jesus, SO...
Just use the write-up of Ilmater for Jesus.
Jesus / Yeshua (original Hebrew)? (What kind of Jewish mother would name her son a latin word meaning 'Son of Zeus'??? You just know HER mother never let her hear the end of THAT...)
Gah! It's Yehoshua - יהושע. It means "salvation." He would have been named for the Yehoshua in the Torah - the one we call Joshua in English. It's the same name.
Nobody would have called him Jesus during his lifetime. He probably went by Yeshua, which is just the Aramaic form of the Hebrew name Yohoshua.
That said I'm almost done with writting up the magic system and will post later my system. As well the campaign should start by autumn
Till next time...