This isn't me flaming the setting or the posters here, it's a genuine question, because I don't don't get it. It always just seem to be so generic. Granted, I know it was the first setting and that's where the majority of the ideas for D&D came from. There really doesn't seem to be much that sets it apart from other settings, nothing that unique which is why I assume the call it the default 3e setting, althouth they don't give any info on the actual world in the core books.
A perfectly legitimate question! There are many answers to that, and there are alot of threads here and elsewhere that answer just that. Perhaps some of my fellow posters can find some of those links and post them here. To start it off, let me point you to a thread over at the Canonfire website I started as a response to a poll entitled "I'm a hardcore Greyhawk fan because..." . This is where you'll find the original poll with comments.
I'm sure others will gladly add further comments and thread links.
Denis, aka "Maldin"
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Maldin's Greyhawk http://melkot.com
Loads of edition-independent official and unofficial Greyhawk Goodness... maps, magic, mysteries, mechanics, and more!
Then in 1987, the Realms was produced, I looked at, bought it, and just kept it on my shelf. Around the 90s I lost my love for greyhawk and bega to luv the realms, because Greyhawk was stagnant while the realms wer dynamic. The realms history moved forward while Greyhawk stayed the same.
Then 2nd edition came along, and with it the Greyhawk Wars. My love with Greyhawk was rekindled.
Now many years later when the Living Greyhawk campaign began I jumped into it with both feet, because Greyhawk was always my favorite my fovite, but with D&D Minis, I had to decide where to devote my limited free time from my family, so I chose Minis. But as my sig professes I still love Greyhawk.
As to the Realms, it fell out of favour with me as everyone has so much knowledge about the realms and it makes running aRealms campaign a bit hard. That and I hate all the Gods Level NPCs running around, and the fact that I can't understand why Khelben and company can't go handle that annoying little nest of kobolds themselves.
and the fact that I can't understand why Khelben and company can't go handle that annoying little nest of kobolds themselves.
Because at their level, they get more XP fighting deadlier monsters, thanks to 3e XP Reward System. If my PC is at their levels, I wouldn't be wasting my time on kobolds. Leave them for the rookies.
I want Greyhawk as detailed as FR. I don't care if my players know. As DM, I run the show.
Let me illustrate my point: I love maps. I could study the map of GH city that came out around 1991 for hours. There was one spot called "The Burn", a few blocks of the city that was haunted and unused after a devastating fire. Our PC's bought it, built on it and moved on. When the updated GH City map came out a few years ago they had added buildings over what used to be the Burn as well as lots of new buildings outside the city walls and a few other changes here and there. That was fascinating to me. I was ready to walk those streets and see what waited for me around the corner. It's kind of the same when a new (or old) game designer strides into the blank canvas/incomplete painting that is Greyhawk. The Realms are paint by number. Greyhawk is an unfinshed masterpiece.
When the updated GH City map came out a few years ago they had added buildings over what used to be the Burn as well as lots of new buildings outside the city walls and a few other changes here and there. That was fascinating to me.
That was me! Glad you enjoyed my map.
Denis, aka "Maldin"
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Maldin's Greyhawk http://melkot.com
Given that, I can't help but wonder what the big appeal of Greyhawk is to the majority of the posters here. Why does it draw you guys in so much that you want it redone so badly?
Why do they want it redone so badly? Mostly likely because its never really been done well before and think it deserves better.
I’m only a peripheral Grayhawk fan. I read the posts here to get a better grip on the setting and lands and history as there is no campaign setting.
Greyhawk’s appeal seems to come down to an alchemical mixture of nostalgia, retro and simplicity. It’s old and conjures up memories of “old school” games, older fantasy worlds. The kind of pulp fantasy from the ‘70s and ‘80s which ripped off Tolkien and other writers unapologetically.
It’s one of those classic worlds that reminds people of old homegames. Dozens of human empires with only one or two non-human nations and most of those monsters and elves. Worlds with a long history of magical arts that still have cultures and technology reminiscent of medieval Europe and have been roughly using the same tech for thousands of years. Multiple labyrinth dungeons purposely built across the continent and left untouched and chock-full of magical treasure and gold. And where even the smallest of backwaters was once, long ago, the centre of an ancient empire.
It’s simple and uncomplicated yet deceptive.
It’s Greyhawk’s greatest strength and greatest weakness.
There’s also the lack of information. Large stretches of land and areas just haven’t seen a lot of attention and detail. A few kingdoms have lengthy histories but there are many blank areas that need a DM to fill them in.
Greyhawk’s been like this since the beginning and it’s what the Forgotten Realms used to be. Heck, early on Greykhawk was only a rough framework of a world with DMs given almost free reign to create and imagine away while still sharing something with every other DM. Slowly more and more detail was added in increasingly less popular products. But there was always areas it felt were being left aside for the creative. Unlike the Realms that had wide blank swatches that were rapidly filled in to minute details by the multitude of products Greyhawk was also more open. Heck, even Sembia, the land once set aside to only be undetailed so DMs could make it up themselves, has now been the subject of multiple novels.
There's alot of other reasons. It's always been the underdog of Campaign Settings, below the Realms and Dragonlance and now Eberron. People like underdogs. It's seen as true D&D as its advertised as the "default world" despite no real products ever reflecting that be it cartoons, movies, novels or source books.
That was me! Glad you enjoyed my map.
Denis, aka "Maldin"
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Maldin's Greyhawk http://melkot.com
I shoulda gave you props Maldin. Sorry. I really love your maps. Now if we can just get Anondson out from under his rock and have you two collaborate on a project... wouldn't that be awesome?
For what it's worth, I'd love to see another aerial map of Greyhawk City, but one that shows what's within a mile or so of the city walls. I've always wanted to see how close Garbage Hill was to the city and just how big it really is.
Dyvers, Hardby, Rauxes, Highfolk, heck even Soull and Knudje. I love city maps more than anything I think.
For what it's worth, I'd love to see another aerial map of Greyhawk City, but one that shows what's within a mile or so of the city walls. I've always wanted to see how close Garbage Hill was to the city and just how big it really is.
I would second that. I got great use out of the one from the boxed set when I had my group in the city.
Greyhawk’s appeal seems to come down to an alchemical mixture of nostalgia, retro and simplicity. It’s old and conjures up memories of “old school” games, older fantasy worlds. The kind of pulp fantasy from the ‘70s and ‘80s which ripped off Tolkien and other writers unapologetically.
That's one take on Greyhawk's origins, but for me, Greyhawk is truer to D&D's pulp fantasy roots, which certainly predate LOTR: it hearkens to the true pulp masters like Robert E. Howard, Clark Ashton Smith, and H. P. Lovecraft, as well as swords & sorcery authors like Fritz Leiber, Michael Moorcock, Jack Vance, Phil Farmer, and Roger Zelazny, in addition to Tolkien (but certainly not his innumerable imitators).
That's one take on Greyhawk's origins, but for me, Greyhawk is truer to D&D's pulp fantasy roots, which certainly predate LOTR: it hearkens to the true pulp masters like Robert E. Howard, Clark Ashton Smith, and H. P. Lovecraft, as well as swords & sorcery authors like Fritz Leiber, Michael Moorcock, Jack Vance, Phil Farmer, and Roger Zelazny, in addition to Tolkien (but certainly not his innumerable imitators).
That's true but Swords & Sorcery have certainly been pushed to the wayside by High/Epic Fantasy (which is currently being pushed to the wayside by fairy-tale esque Potter tales and Eberron Magik-tech worlds) and few people have heard or read the stories from Weird Tales. They may still have heard of Conan but mostly from the movies and comics and occasional homage anthology. Even finding Leiber, Moorcock, Vance and the like in bookstores is hard.
They were huge in the '30s and '40s but only Lovecraft has really come out with continued popularity. And the S&S books of the 60s-80s are typically abysmal knock-offs.
It's hard to maintain the popularity of a setting based-on and inspired-by a sub-genre that's been dead for longer than most of the fanbase of the game has been alive.
Aside from the fact that EGG doesn't actually like Tolkein's writings and has always said so, of course.
He shouldn't include the Hobbit-like race. Although he and his cohorts did include because despite his dislike of Tolkiens, his then-potential customers in the 70's most likely read Tolkien. Give what the customers want.
If he can revive Greyhawk, he should eliminate halflings from that setting.
He shouldn't include the Hobbit-like race. Although he and his cohorts did include because despite his dislike of Tolkiens, his then-potential customers in the 70's most likely read Tolkien. Give what the customers want.
If he can revive Greyhawk, he should eliminate halflings from that setting.
What?!? How dare you sir! You leave the little Hobniz alone. Better that Gnoniz be eradicated in my opinion!