Lack of Metal: Natural or Created Problem

Post/Author/DateTimePost
#1

mouthymerc

Jun 09, 2007 7:28:42
Okay, in another thread about the warforged in Athas, some stated that said world is toxic to metal. Now, is this some theory that many have come up with themselves? It has been quite a while since I read any of the novels or the campaign information, but I do not recall the environment being toxic to metal. I do remember that metal, as a resource, had been used extensively, to the point that it was now rare. How do people run metal in their game?

Personally, I always liked the fact that it was rare. It added another level of material treasure for the characters could reach for. Much like mithral or adamantine in other campaigns, it was the holy grail of materials to go after for their weapons or armors. Finding a metal sword would be a phenomenal discovery.
#2

flindbar

Jun 09, 2007 8:19:25
In my DS campaign I went pretty much with the standard "metals are just rare" line.
Its just a scarce resource.
Hence the ingenious uses that other materials have been put to.
#3

cnahumck

Jun 09, 2007 12:19:43
remember that huge wars lasted for 3000 years. That is a very very long time, so even if Athas did have metal, it would be depleted now. The States were put on war rations for metals during WWII and that was shorter than the current war in the Middle East.
#4

monastyrski

Jun 09, 2007 12:27:14
Now, is this some theory that many have come up with themselves?

The most obvious natural theory is to assume that Athas is a very old planet, much older than Earth, and almost all metals are not in crust, but in core, due to gravitational differentiation.
How do people run metal in their game?
Personally, I always liked the fact that it was rare. It added another level of material treasure for the characters could reach for. Much like mithral or adamantine in other campaigns, it was the holy grail of materials to go after for their weapons or armors. Finding a metal sword would be a phenomenal discovery.

I always assume that all "premium" weapons, both metallic or not, and metallic armour, are simply nonexistant.
#5

Zardnaar

Jun 09, 2007 21:17:42
I put it into the metal is rare bit and treat it as quasi magical items. a metal longsword is roughly as rare a s a +1 longsword on another world which limits it to higher level characters. A metal suit of full plate would be comparable to a +5 weapon with several abilities on it(+5 keen, flaming, human bane longsword?) or something similar.
#6

mouthymerc

Jun 10, 2007 13:00:06
When I first read about the rarity of metals, it struck me as as representative of what is happening in the real world, but taken to the nth degree. Athas seemed to be a world that had used and abused its natural resources to such a degree during its history that they were all but depleted. These resources are renewable, but it will take thousands, if not millions in some cases, of years for those resources to come back to any semblance of normalcy. Athas reminds me of Dune in some ways.

I don't see that Athas' environment is harmful to metals, though. At least, no more harmful than normal. Sure, if you leave something metal exposed to the elements it will, in all likelyhood, deteriorate. If you take care of your metal object, it will be just fine.
#7

ruhl-than_sage

Jun 10, 2007 13:36:53
There is still a lot of metal on Athas if you look at the stories and adventures, no where near as much as in other worlds, but quite a bit. It's just all located in very dangerous locations such as in ruins haunted by Wraiths and Meortys, Sorcerer Kings treasure vaults, and buried under the Sea of Silt.

Almost all of the metal in the Tyr region has been mined already due to thousands of years of civilization and war. Much of it was lost due to war and natural disasters, and personally I like to think that much of the metal that the SKs had was destroyed by the Druids.

Also Rust Monsters :D
#8

dirk00001

Jun 12, 2007 10:21:57
This has been brought up a couple times, and as cnahumck pointed out WWII is the best example/comparison for what happened. There are references in various places - not to mention the dwarven wraiths in Kemalok and the wraiths underneath Tyr - to point to the fact that Athas, prior to the CWs, had it's normal share of metal. It was just thousands of years of fighting, combined with a planet that was already probably a little short on metals (due to having been a "water world", and thus having a different surface/geographical structure during the Green Age and later than is found here on earth), that did it. Add to that the fact that it was a war of genocide, and thus one of total destruction (equipment included), and you've got the current situation.
#9

kalthandrix

Jun 12, 2007 11:43:01
Here is an interesting idea that I came up with just now.

Metal ore is in the ground, right. And the use of defiling magic turns earth into baren, life-less ash. So couldn't be possible, that defiling magic makes unrefined metalic ore decay as well.

This would explain why all of the ruins that date back to the CWs and before all have a greater amount of metalic treasures. Before the CWs, metal would have been much like it is here on earth, but with defiling destroying raw ore and the 3000 years of war, Athas is now a metallically poor world - at leaast in those regions where the CWs took place - meaning the Tablelands and the Tyr Region would be the most metal poor areas of the world.
#10

the_bus_driver

Jun 12, 2007 13:46:11
The Expanded and Revised Dark Sun Campaign Setting went into some detail on this:

But metal wasn’t always rare. Though the halflings of the Blue Age didn’t use it, metal ore filled the land around them. When the Green Age began, metal became the resource of choice. Throughout the Green Age to the end of the Cleansing Wars, Athasians devoured the supplies of ore without a thought to those who would come later.

#11

xlorepdarkhelm_dup

Jun 12, 2007 13:48:43
Okay, in another thread about the warforged in Athas, some stated that said world is toxic to metal. Now, is this some theory that many have come up with themselves? It has been quite a while since I read any of the novels or the campaign information, but I do not recall the environment being toxic to metal. I do remember that metal, as a resource, had been used extensively, to the point that it was now rare. How do people run metal in their game?

Personally, I always liked the fact that it was rare. It added another level of material treasure for the characters could reach for. Much like mithral or adamantine in other campaigns, it was the holy grail of materials to go after for their weapons or armors. Finding a metal sword would be a phenomenal discovery.

Ok, it was me who said Athas was toxic to metal. I never said that was exclusively the only reason for the lack of metal, just that for my campaigns, it is one to take note. My reasoning is this:

From multiple sources in the setting material for Dark Sun, we know that metal did exist in decent quantities during the Green Age. Many of the metal items that are found within the game survive from the Green Age, most of which are in fact magically or psionically enhanced.

We also know there was a massive set of magical wars that have been fought, the Cleansing Wars, the war against the Preservers, the war against the Druids, etc. All of which threw around a bunch of magical damage that scarred the world, that nobody really knows (or cared) exactly what the long term effects of using that amount of magic (mainly Defiling magic) would have on the world.

A lot of metal was most likely mined and forged to make the weapons and equipment during those wars. Now that alone wouldn't make the metal somehow disappear -- it just would no longer be mined -- but it would still exist in the world. No, something had to have happened to the metal. Once again, it begs the question -- what could have happened to it all? Could it all have been lost in the Silt Sea? Or how about being thrown in the Lava Gorge? Or maybe it all has been secreted away in lost treasure troves (hard to believe for weapons and armor that was being used by armies).

All we really need is to consider -- what could the Preservers have done to help stave off their attackers -- could they have cast spells to weaken and/or destroy the metal armor and weapons of the marauding armies encroaching on them? What about the Druids? Could the various races that were being expunged from the world during the Cleansing Wars have found ways to weaken the armies bent on genocide of their species a bit by making or casting something that hindered, weakened, or eroded the very equipment said armies were using? What long-term effects could Defiling have had to the metal equipment that is now unknown and never was paid any attention to?

What if it's a combination of all of these things, in different quantities -- some metal destroyed outright by magic, some by the environment (magma, lost in the silt, etc), and from all of this, we could very well end up with the possibility of a world which is, in fact, toxic to metal. Maybe there is some metal that has survived - it could have been forged with some kind of impurity that protects it, or it could have been kept safe from the corrosive elements now in the world -- it could be (like most of the metal that has been seen) magically or psionically imbued, protecting it through those means. I'd say that any metal not protected through some kind of means (and since metal is now highly prized, sought after, and guarded by those who possess it, that metal would potentially be "protected") would begin the process of sort of "magical oxidation" -- corroding or rusting, becoming weaker, and falling apart.

What would protect the metal? I'd say, once again, if it was magically or psionically imbued. But also, it could be locked away in some air-tight vault (like the Dwarves tend to do). Some metals might be more resilient to the effects of this Athasian environment -- gold and silver might decay at a slower rate, resulting in the coins still somewhat being prominent, but copper might rapidly degrade into nothing over a period of months or a matter of a few years. I'd expect that iron might not be incredibly resilient to the effects of this environment. The iron mine that's in Try produces mostly very little actual iron ore from it, and while there is still some being made and forged, there still doesn't seem to be very much in circulation, which could mean that iron goods wear out somewhat quickly. Materials that would be innately "magical" in nature, like... adamantine, for instance, could possibly be more prone to this corrosive effect than other materials, making it simply be so extraordinarily rare that people simply don't know of its existence -- it could degrade into something else in a matter of minutes from being brought into the open air.

Basically, Athas would then not only be merely a "metal poor" world, but also potentially dangerous for metal. Someone entering Athas wearing metal armor might find their armor getting weaker, parts breaking off from it, and becoming less and less of a real effective means of defense. Metal weapons might break in combat, metal armor or shields might shatter.
#12

ruhl-than_sage

Jun 12, 2007 18:06:13
When you get obessed with a concept you really get obessed with it. And just won't stop trying to sell it to others. As you outlined in your post their are plenty of reasons for the scarcity of metal that we know to be likely, or even certain to justify it's scarcity. The Toxic enviroment bit is cool if that's how you want to run things, but it isn't really mentioned in the setting and is completely unecessary to explain things.
#13

terminus_vortexa

Jun 12, 2007 18:27:35
I tend to run with this idea- Dragon magic destroys all of the nutrients in the earth around it, and in all living creatures in its radius, right? Well, iron, magnesium, and many other metals are vital nutrients in all living cells, but not in their pure forms. They are always bound in a compound of some type. Going with this train of thought, Dragon Magic (especially when the Dragon ruined the Tablelands) could have been responsible for destroying all metallic COMPOUNDS near the surface of the Tablelands, while leaving pure (or nearly pure) metal items intact. So their could be some very deep, undiscovered mines in the ground, and maybe Kalak managed to protect his mine near Tyr from the worst of the Dragon's assault, or at least the deepest parts. But any ore near the surface of the whole region could have been destroyed during the rampage, because it was chemically similar enough to vital nutrients, especially oxidized iron (iron ore), which is a main component of hemoglobin. Gold and silver are components of some vital nutrients as well, and so would have been destroyed as well.I believe aluminum is one of very few metals not used in animal cells (and is in fact harmful, possibly contributing to Alzheimer's disease), so their could still be a lot of it around, but given the technology level of Athas (or lack thereof), nobody would know it existed, because Aluminum, like titanium, is widely dispersed in the crust of earth-like planets, but in very very small amounts, like a few grains per cubic inch. Too small to see with the unaided eye. And even if they knew it was there, they lack the knowledge and equipment to extract it, which is a feat our own modern society on Earth has learned only in the last century or so. The people of the Tablelands could be sitting on top of all the metal they could desire, and not even know about it.

But PURE iron is not a vital nutrient, and so metal items wouldn't have been destroyed, but time and corrosion (as well as spellcasters) could have destroyed many of them.

So maybe, just maybe, if they survive long enough to discover it, Athasians could be walking around with titanium swords and aluminum armor. Maybe.
#14

Zardnaar

Jun 13, 2007 0:54:18
Do you think its reasonable if you dug really deep you could find metal easily in Athas? Perhaps somewhere really deep in the Athasian underdark. Easily might be the wrong word you get what I mean.
#15

terminus_vortexa

Jun 13, 2007 7:52:58
I agree it's reasonable to the point of certainty. The only reason Athasians haven't tapped into these sources IMO is that they simply are too busy trying to survive to go digging deep holes in random spots of the wasteland until they find a nice vein of ore, and maybe even the SKs haven't realized what happened to all the metal, because they know more about magic and psionics than they do about chemistry. They probably have no clue that metals are an important part of organic life, so they would never draw the conclusion that Dragon Magic could have wiped out the ore. They probably just think it has been depleted through natural use. But I'm sure it's down there, if one digs deep enough at the right location.
#16

kalthandrix

Jun 13, 2007 8:50:08
nope - it is all gone.

The hej-kin have been selling it to the space hampsters who are designing a huge metal cage around Athas in an attempt to extract their revenge for thousands of year being caged by humans and their small, overly friendly children.

I have even heard that they have struck a deal with one of the forested planes to get all the cedar chips they need to replace the silt all over the world.
#17

zombiegleemax

Jun 13, 2007 10:12:22
Here's my 2 Copper on Metal

Over 3000 years and the use/abuse of Defiler magic and equiping armys, it had depleted the world of natural resources. Now with mainly stones/wood/bone equipment it makes it almost impossible for any city to start mining for more. In my campaigns the metal exists but nobody can really get to it, I mean how are you going to mine with picks made of wood or bone? And the only people with any money really are the SK. So, since metal is so expensive and since nobody can afford it there isn't any mining going on for it. The world also lacks in the knowledge of making better metals like Steel. They can get bronze but Steel is like a recipy kept by only a few and protected above even the SK.
#18

xlorepdarkhelm_dup

Jun 13, 2007 10:15:53
I'd say it is reasonable to find more metal underground. But, I'd alsorule that it would potentially start to wear out just like other metal (following my reasoning outlined above)
#19

terminus_vortexa

Jun 13, 2007 15:32:49
This whole thing has got me thinking - I'm going to add a plot arc to my campaign where either Nibenay or Hamanu realizes that there could be metal seep beneath the surface and begins to recruit powerful psionic characters to use the Way to tunnel down and look for it, offering a stake of the claim and other privileges as a reward. And down in those unexplored depths, the Athasian Underdark will get discovered for the first time IMC..........Now to decide what's down there...........Suggestions?
#20

kalthandrix

Jun 13, 2007 15:35:09
This whole thing has got me thinking - I'm going to add a plot arc to my campaign where either Nibenay or Hamanu realizes that there could be metal seep beneath the surface and begins to recruit powerful psionic characters to use the Way to tunnel down and look for it, offering a stake of the claim and other privileges as a reward. And down in those unexplored depths, the Athasian Underdark will get discovered for the first time IMC..........Now to decide what's down there...........Suggestions?

DROW! Twin-sword wielding drow that have purple eyes and panthers!

oh...wait...wrong setting.
#21

terminus_vortexa

Jun 13, 2007 15:50:12
*Manifests Decerebrate on Kalthandrix*

Seriously, I'm trying to avoid making a Realms type underdark. I better start a new thread.....
#22

dirk00001

Jun 13, 2007 16:43:59
2000+ years of war, as I've pointed out in at least one other thread, is more than enough time to deplete a planet of metal. Simple melee and ranged combat, even without including magic (as has been noted above), takes a heavy toll on weapons...and especially since, at the beginning of the CWs at the very least, it was still a "Green Age" and thus rain and overall "environmental humidity" still existed. In a nutshell: armies clash, weapons and armor are chipped and broken, then trampled into the earth or buried under liquid-leaking corpses, resulting in them rusting and eventually "fading away" into wind-strewn iron oxide/dust as the defilers tear away at the surface with their constant use of magic. Add in spells that rust metal, freeze and shatter it, heat and melt it, etc. and the problem gets even worse. Then, as the war drags on and "easy access" mineral deposits run out (those close to the surface), more and more of the pre-existing materials are reused and thus subject to the same damage, corrosion and eventual destruction as their predecessors.

Another thing that I find interesting - although it's total heresay in regards to this topic - is that Athas is a very "red world" - very Mars like in appearance, with a lot of reddish and yellow tones. Although the impact of billions (...?) of tons of metal rusting wouldn't turn a planet red, I could see how it could *contribute* to that look, what with flecks of iron oxide mixing in with the sand, blowing across the barrens and into the badlands, etc. And, even if that's not the case, we've got huge expanses of silt under which the heavier rust-particles could sink.