A Little Knowledge-Mini Article/Ramble - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

A Little Knowledge-Mini Article/Ramble

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
Zardnaar
Jun 12, 2007 17:30:16 What do your PCs know in 3rd edition Darksun? 2nd ed never had knowledge based skills so it was really up to the DM to reveal the history of Athas if it was relevent. Even then depending on what Dark Sun product you had access to even the DM might not know much either. Here is how I would assign DCs to various knowledge checks for PCs. Note that this is all opinion and you may have different ideas- thats what message boards are for.

Anyone in 3.5 editions rules may make an untrained knowledge check of DC 20 or less. For numbers over this you must have skill ranks in the Knowledge skill. to me the skill numbers probably represent something like this.

DC 5 Virtually everyone knows this information.
DC10 Most people know this information
DC15 Some people know this information
DC 20 Most of the population is clueless.

I would assume the average NPC on the street is a level 1 or 2 NPC class with 10 or 11 intelligence and 0 ranks in most knowledge skills. The occasional Aristocrat or Expert NPC class might have between 1-5 ranks in any knowledge skill to reflect their better education. Also the DM could ad hoc reduce a checks DC by 1-5 to reflect local knowledge. A DC 15 information check involving Urik for example might only be DC 10 to a native of Urik.

For DCs higher than 20 you must be trained. As a rule of thumb I estimate how many ranks a dedicated person could devote to a subject and what their intelligence could be. Its probably reasonable to assume a level 10 wizard could have a 19 or 20 intelligence and have 13 ranks in a knowledge skill. Such a character would have around a+17 or +18 skill check modifier. Skill focus or a similar feats can probably add +2-+5 or so to this number whle a Bard character at level 10 might have 13 ranks in knowledge at level 10 but probably has a lower intelligence. A level 20 character with maximum ranks in a knowledge skill would have 23 ranks, and probably an intelligence of 16-30. A smart Psion or Wizard could reasonably have 25 intelligence (15 base point but, +5 for levels, +5 item) for a total of +30 to any knowledge check. Being a PC it could even be higher once various items, feats, class abilities, and racial abilities are added up.

In general most NPCs on Athas probably haven't spent to many skill points on knowledge history. Access to a library or ancient records could grant a +2 to +4 bonus on a skill check while a very detailed book could make a skill check more or less automatically succeed. The Sorceror Kings have spent centuries concealing the truth of the past from the people of Athas but high level heroes in the old TSR modules did find out the truth. Once again this would come down to what the DM would choose to reveal to a player but PCs often have access to various divination spells or powers to help out here- Legend Lore and Commune can be reasonably annoying to a DM who wants to keep information limited about what the players know. Anyway heres what I would think is a reasonable DC's for Knowledge Arcana checks. The true history of Athas would probably involve multiple Knowledge Arcana and History checks.

Knowledge Arcana

DC 5. Magic exists and vile sorcerors and mysterious priests can wield it.

DC 10. Clerics wield the power of the elements. Sorcerors/Wizards have ruined Athas. It is rumored the Sorceror Kings wield powerful magic.

DC 15. Arcane Magic draws its power from plant life killing it. Ancient wars between sorcerors ravaged Athas.

DC 18-20 Defilers kill plants to draw their energy while preservers only draw some of the plants lifeforce. The ancient wars were between Defilers and Preservers.

Beyond this point untrained people won't really know anything about magic. At best they might have incorrect information or rumors. In some cases DCs might be lower due to local knowledge.

DC 25. There is a mysterious magical tower in the desert. Rumors persist of strange creature originating from it.

DC 30 Magic was invented by the 1st Sorceror. The ancient wars were known as the Cleansing Wars and Defilers ruined the world. The Pristine Tower is east of Nibenay/Gulg

DC 35 The 1st Sorcerors name was Rajaat, his magic blighted the sun changing it from yellow to red. It is rumored powerful Psion/Wizards can transform into Avangions/Dragons

DC 40 The Sorceror Kings created the Dragon, Rajaat created the Champions using magic.

Using our hypothetical example from before a level 20 wizard with 25 intelligence and max ranks in knowledge Arcana and maybe History would have +30 on his check. Such a character would probably know alot about the true events of Athas past. I see no reason why knowledge should be withheld from such a character if they've dedicted skill points to a skill. However even then they may not know everthing or only know partial or incorrect information. Spells and powers might be able to invalidate a knowledge check and I'm not even going to bring up time travel which has been touched on by 2nd ed sources.

As a rule of thumb knowledge involving Rajaat would be in the 30's-40 range maybe higher depending on how widespread its effects were. People would have noticed the sun change colour and divinations could have revealed the causes of it and been recorded somewhere. Same thing involviong the Cleansing Wars. Not many people would have known aboout Rajaats hidden pyramid at the bottom of Jagged Cliffs.Ur Draxa was hidden in the Sea of Silt but to the informed a knowledge DC 35 check may reveal its location while a DC 40 one might reveal its the Dragons city. Not many people on Athas could make such a check. Most of the original source material indicated at least a few people knew things the average Athasian didn't.
#2
ruhl-than_sage
Jun 12, 2007 18:28:35 I don't necessarily agree with all the DCs listed for information, but the general concept is sound. The way I've run it personally, I have Knowledge (History) and Knowledge (Ancient History) as seperate skills. Knowledge (History) is easy to come by an covers knowledge of History in the Brown Age, with the Dragon's Rampage being the most distent historical event within it's purview. Knowledge (Ancient History) however covers the history of the Cleansing Wars, the Early Time of Magic, and the Green Age, with the Brown Tide and a vague description of the Blue Age marking the oldest knowledge covered by Knowledge (Ancient History). Only those who gain access to acient sources of Knowledge such as acient texts (like the book of Kemolok Kings, or scrolls kept in the SKs secret vaults) or conversations with the Wraiths and Meortys of the ancients ever get the opportunity to take Knowledge (Ancient History).
#3
Zardnaar
Jun 13, 2007 0:57:25 What DCs would you disagree with? One wouldimagine it would be difficult to reasonably restrict information about Athas from a PC Diviner 10/Loremaster10 with several knowledge skills maxed out.
#4
Band2
Jun 13, 2007 8:59:44 You do have a good idea with this. Some changes I would suggest:

Knowledge Arcana
DC 10. Clerics wield the power of the elements. Sorcerors/Wizards have ruined Athas. It is rumored the Sorceror Kings wield powerful magic.

For DC 10, why not replace Sorceror/wizard with defilers. By mentioning sorcereror/ wizards you already let on that there are differences between a wizard, a defiler and something else (preserver). But you have the knowledge of preservers are not available until DC18.

DC 15. Arcane Magic draws its power from plant life killing it. Ancient wars between sorcerors ravaged Athas.

This is sentence mixes game knowledge with campaign knowledge. It is just in the wording. What is arcane magic? That is something all players would know, but would any citizens of Athas know what the term means?

DC 18-20 Defilers kill plants to draw their energy while preservers only draw some of the plants lifeforce. The ancient wars were between Defilers and Preservers.

Perhaps knowledge of the differences between preservers and defilers should be greater than 20, so that it falls into the area of needing to be trained to understand it.
#5
ruhl-than_sage
Jun 13, 2007 13:00:55
What DCs would you disagree with? One wouldimagine it would be difficult to reasonably restrict information about Athas from a PC Diviner 10/Loremaster10 with several knowledge skills maxed out.

I don't mean to influence you to change the DCs it's all personal taste and opinion.
#6
Zardnaar
Jun 13, 2007 17:19:29 I made the DC knowledge arcana check 18 because most of the population wouldn't know the difference. Any higher than 20 and very few people would know the difference apart from maybe PC types and higher level NPCs.

At DC 18 only 15% or so of the population would know the difference and even then they may not know the exact details or care. They may have seen or heard of a wizard casting spells without defiliing. Of course some loudmouth PC who does know the difference might tell them anyway which would largly negate the knowledge check.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Zardnaar Jun 12, 2007 17:30:16	What do your PCs know in 3rd edition Darksun? 2nd ed never had knowledge based skills so it was really up to the DM to reveal the history of Athas if it was relevent. Even then depending on what Dark Sun product you had access to even the DM might not know much either. Here is how I would assign DCs to various knowledge checks for PCs. Note that this is all opinion and you may have different ideas- thats what message boards are for. Anyone in 3.5 editions rules may make an untrained knowledge check of DC 20 or less. For numbers over this you must have skill ranks in the Knowledge skill. to me the skill numbers probably represent something like this. DC 5 Virtually everyone knows this information. DC10 Most people know this information DC15 Some people know this information DC 20 Most of the population is clueless. I would assume the average NPC on the street is a level 1 or 2 NPC class with 10 or 11 intelligence and 0 ranks in most knowledge skills. The occasional Aristocrat or Expert NPC class might have between 1-5 ranks in any knowledge skill to reflect their better education. Also the DM could ad hoc reduce a checks DC by 1-5 to reflect local knowledge. A DC 15 information check involving Urik for example might only be DC 10 to a native of Urik. For DCs higher than 20 you must be trained. As a rule of thumb I estimate how many ranks a dedicated person could devote to a subject and what their intelligence could be. Its probably reasonable to assume a level 10 wizard could have a 19 or 20 intelligence and have 13 ranks in a knowledge skill. Such a character would have around a+17 or +18 skill check modifier. Skill focus or a similar feats can probably add +2-+5 or so to this number whle a Bard character at level 10 might have 13 ranks in knowledge at level 10 but probably has a lower intelligence. A level 20 character with maximum ranks in a knowledge skill would have 23 ranks, and probably an intelligence of 16-30. A smart Psion or Wizard could reasonably have 25 intelligence (15 base point but, +5 for levels, +5 item) for a total of +30 to any knowledge check. Being a PC it could even be higher once various items, feats, class abilities, and racial abilities are added up. In general most NPCs on Athas probably haven't spent to many skill points on knowledge history. Access to a library or ancient records could grant a +2 to +4 bonus on a skill check while a very detailed book could make a skill check more or less automatically succeed. The Sorceror Kings have spent centuries concealing the truth of the past from the people of Athas but high level heroes in the old TSR modules did find out the truth. Once again this would come down to what the DM would choose to reveal to a player but PCs often have access to various divination spells or powers to help out here- Legend Lore and Commune can be reasonably annoying to a DM who wants to keep information limited about what the players know. Anyway heres what I would think is a reasonable DC's for Knowledge Arcana checks. The true history of Athas would probably involve multiple Knowledge Arcana and History checks. Knowledge Arcana DC 5. Magic exists and vile sorcerors and mysterious priests can wield it. DC 10. Clerics wield the power of the elements. Sorcerors/Wizards have ruined Athas. It is rumored the Sorceror Kings wield powerful magic. DC 15. Arcane Magic draws its power from plant life killing it. Ancient wars between sorcerors ravaged Athas. DC 18-20 Defilers kill plants to draw their energy while preservers only draw some of the plants lifeforce. The ancient wars were between Defilers and Preservers. Beyond this point untrained people won't really know anything about magic. At best they might have incorrect information or rumors. In some cases DCs might be lower due to local knowledge. DC 25. There is a mysterious magical tower in the desert. Rumors persist of strange creature originating from it. DC 30 Magic was invented by the 1st Sorceror. The ancient wars were known as the Cleansing Wars and Defilers ruined the world. The Pristine Tower is east of Nibenay/Gulg DC 35 The 1st Sorcerors name was Rajaat, his magic blighted the sun changing it from yellow to red. It is rumored powerful Psion/Wizards can transform into Avangions/Dragons DC 40 The Sorceror Kings created the Dragon, Rajaat created the Champions using magic. Using our hypothetical example from before a level 20 wizard with 25 intelligence and max ranks in knowledge Arcana and maybe History would have +30 on his check. Such a character would probably know alot about the true events of Athas past. I see no reason why knowledge should be withheld from such a character if they've dedicted skill points to a skill. However even then they may not know everthing or only know partial or incorrect information. Spells and powers might be able to invalidate a knowledge check and I'm not even going to bring up time travel which has been touched on by 2nd ed sources. As a rule of thumb knowledge involving Rajaat would be in the 30's-40 range maybe higher depending on how widespread its effects were. People would have noticed the sun change colour and divinations could have revealed the causes of it and been recorded somewhere. Same thing involviong the Cleansing Wars. Not many people would have known aboout Rajaats hidden pyramid at the bottom of Jagged Cliffs.Ur Draxa was hidden in the Sea of Silt but to the informed a knowledge DC 35 check may reveal its location while a DC 40 one might reveal its the Dragons city. Not many people on Athas could make such a check. Most of the original source material indicated at least a few people knew things the average Athasian didn't.
#2 ruhl-than_sage Jun 12, 2007 18:28:35	I don't necessarily agree with all the DCs listed for information, but the general concept is sound. The way I've run it personally, I have Knowledge (History) and Knowledge (Ancient History) as seperate skills. Knowledge (History) is easy to come by an covers knowledge of History in the Brown Age, with the Dragon's Rampage being the most distent historical event within it's purview. Knowledge (Ancient History) however covers the history of the Cleansing Wars, the Early Time of Magic, and the Green Age, with the Brown Tide and a vague description of the Blue Age marking the oldest knowledge covered by Knowledge (Ancient History). Only those who gain access to acient sources of Knowledge such as acient texts (like the book of Kemolok Kings, or scrolls kept in the SKs secret vaults) or conversations with the Wraiths and Meortys of the ancients ever get the opportunity to take Knowledge (Ancient History).
#3 Zardnaar Jun 13, 2007 0:57:25	What DCs would you disagree with? One wouldimagine it would be difficult to reasonably restrict information about Athas from a PC Diviner 10/Loremaster10 with several knowledge skills maxed out.
#4 Band2 Jun 13, 2007 8:59:44	You do have a good idea with this. Some changes I would suggest: Knowledge Arcana DC 10. Clerics wield the power of the elements. Sorcerors/Wizards have ruined Athas. It is rumored the Sorceror Kings wield powerful magic. For DC 10, why not replace Sorceror/wizard with defilers. By mentioning sorcereror/ wizards you already let on that there are differences between a wizard, a defiler and something else (preserver). But you have the knowledge of preservers are not available until DC18. DC 15. Arcane Magic draws its power from plant life killing it. Ancient wars between sorcerors ravaged Athas. This is sentence mixes game knowledge with campaign knowledge. It is just in the wording. What is arcane magic? That is something all players would know, but would any citizens of Athas know what the term means? DC 18-20 Defilers kill plants to draw their energy while preservers only draw some of the plants lifeforce. The ancient wars were between Defilers and Preservers. Perhaps knowledge of the differences between preservers and defilers should be greater than 20, so that it falls into the area of needing to be trained to understand it.
#5 ruhl-than_sage Jun 13, 2007 13:00:55	What DCs would you disagree with? One wouldimagine it would be difficult to reasonably restrict information about Athas from a PC Diviner 10/Loremaster10 with several knowledge skills maxed out. I don't mean to influence you to change the DCs it's all personal taste and opinion.
#6 Zardnaar Jun 13, 2007 17:19:29	I made the DC knowledge arcana check 18 because most of the population wouldn't know the difference. Any higher than 20 and very few people would know the difference apart from maybe PC types and higher level NPCs. At DC 18 only 15% or so of the population would know the difference and even then they may not know the exact details or care. They may have seen or heard of a wizard casting spells without defiliing. Of course some loudmouth PC who does know the difference might tell them anyway which would largly negate the knowledge check.