It far from complete, but here's what I have currently.
Templar
Alignment:A templar’s alignment must be within one step of his ’s sorcerer-king’s (that is, it may be one step away on either the lawful–chaotic axis or the good–evil axis, but not both).
Hit Die: d8.
Class Skills
The templar’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Appraise (Int), Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Forgery (Int), Gather Information (Cha), Heal (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (any) (Int), Literacy (none), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Spellcraft (Int) and Spot (Wis).
Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int modifier) x4.
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier.
[HTML]Table I: The Templar
Lvl BAB Fort Ref Wil Special
1st +0 +2 +0 +2 Secular aptitude, Assume domain
2nd +1 +3 +0 +3 -
3rd +2 +3 +1 +3 Enhanced learning
4th +3 +4 +1 +4 Rebuke undead
5th +3 +4 +1 +4 Templarate lore
6th +4 +5 +2 +5 -
7th +5 +5 +2 +5 Enhanced learning
8th +6/+1 +6 +2 +6 -
9th +6/+1 +6 +3 +6 Templarate lore
10th +7/+2 +7 +3 +7 -
11th +8/+3 +7 +3 +7 Enhanced learning
12th +9/+4 +8 +4 +8 -
13th +9/+4 +8 +4 +8 Templarate lore
14th +10/+5 +9 +4 +9 -
15th +11/+6/+1 +9 +5 +9 Enhanced learning
16th +12/+7/+2 +10 +5 +10 -
17th +12/+7/+2 +10 +5 +10 Templarate lore
18th +13/+8/+3 +11 +6 +11 -
19th +14/+9/+4 +11 +6 +11 Enhanced learning
20th +15/+10/+5 +12 +6 +12 - [/HTML]
[HTML]Lvl 0 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th
1st 5 3 — — — — — — — —
2nd 6 4 — — — — — — — —
3rd 6 5 — — — — — — — —
4th 6 6 3 — — — — — — —
5th 6 6 4 — — — — — — —
6th 6 6 5 3 — — — — — —
7th 6 6 6 4 — — — — — —
8th 6 6 6 5 3 — — — — —
9th 6 6 6 6 4 — — — — —
10th 6 6 6 6 5 3 — — — —
11th 6 6 6 6 6 4 — — — —
12th 6 6 6 6 6 5 3 — — —
13th 6 6 6 6 6 6 4 — — —
14th 6 6 6 6 6 6 5 3 — —
15th 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 4 — —
16th 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 5 3 —
17th 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 4 —
18th 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 5 3
19th 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 4
20th 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 5
[/HTML]
Class Features
All of the following are class features of the templar.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Templars are proficient with all simple weapons, one martial weapon proficiency of his choice, with light and medium armor, and with shields (except tower shields).
Spells: A templar casts divine spells, which are drawn from the templar spell list. When the templar gains access to a new spell level, he automatically knows the spells for that level on the templar spell list. He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time. Essentially, the templar’s spell list is the same as his spells known list. The templar also has the option of adding to his existing spell list through the enhanced learning and assume domain class features (see below).
To cast a templar spell, the templar must have a Charisma score of 10 + the spell’s level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a templar’s spell is 10+ the spell’s level + the templar’s Cha modifier. Like other spellcasters, a templar can cast only a certain number of spells of each level per day. The base daily spell allotment is given on Table-Templar. In addition, the templar receives bonus spells for high Charisma score (See SRD).
A templar need not prepare spells in advance. The templar can cast any spell he knows at any time, assuming he has not yet used up his spells per day for that spell level.
Secular Aptitude (Ex): At 1st level, a templar gains Secular Authority as a bonus feat. Additionally, the templar receives a competence bonus to Secular Authority checks equal to half his class level.
Assume Domain: A templar is assigned two domains based on his sorcerer-king. Each domain gives the templar access to the domain’s granted power as well as being able to add those spells to the templar’s spells known list. The templar gets the granted powers of both assigned domains.
Enhanced Learning (Ex): At 3rd-level, the templar can add a new spell to his list, representing the results of research and self-development. The spell must be a cleric spell of a level no higher than that of the highest-level spell the templar already knows. Once selected it is forever added to the templar’s spell list and can be cast just like any other spell on his list.
The templar gains another new spell at 7th-level, 11th, -level, 15th-level, and 19th-level.
Turn Undead (Su): When a templar reaches 4th level, he gains the supernatural ability to turn undead. He may use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + his Charisma modifier. He turns undead as a cleric of three levels lower would.
Templarate Lore:Templarate Lore: At 5th-level, a templar receives a bonus feat reflecting his privileged position and the training that comes along with it. These bonus feats must be drawn from the following: Alertness, Brew Potion, Deceitful, Deft Hands, Diligent, Improved Turning, Investigator, Leadership, Linguist, Magical Aptitude, Persuasive, Scribe Scroll, or Skill Focus. A templar must still meet all prerequisites for a bonus feat, including ability score minimums.
The templar gains another bonus feat at 9th-level, 13th, -level, and 17th-level.
[HTML]
Table II: Templar
Sorcerer-Monarch Domains
Abalach-Re Charm,Trickery
Andropinis Law,Nobility
Borys Protection,War
Daskinor Madness,Chaos
Dregoth Death,Destruction
Hamanu Strength,War
Kalak Destruction,Knowledge
Lalali-Puy Animal, Plant
Nibenay Knowledge,Trickery
Oronis Magic,Protection
Tectuktitlay Death,Weather[/HTML]
Templar Spell List
0-Level Templar Spells (Orisons)
Detect Magic, Detect Poison, Guidance, Light, Read Magic, Resistance
1st-Level Templar Spells
Bless, Cure Light Wounds, Deathwatch, Detect Undead, Divine Favor, Doom, Hand of the Sorcerer-King, Hide From Undead.
2nd-Level Templar Spells
Aid, Cure Moderate Wounds,Hold Person, Delay Poison, Eagle’s Slender, Enthrall,Flame Blade, Inflict Moderate Wounds, Remove Paralysis, Resist Energy, Restoration-Lesser, Silence, Undetectable Alignment, Zone of Truth.
3rd-Level Templar Spells
Cure Serious Wounds,Dedication, Discern Lies,Dispel Magic, Glyph of Warding, Helping Hand Image of the Sorcerer-King, Inflict Serious Wounds, Lightning Bolt, Locate Object, Obscure Object, Prayer, Remove Disease, Speak with Dead.
4th-Level Templar Spells
Cure Critical Wounds,Command-Greater, Freedom of Movement, Neutralize Poison, Sending, Status, Tongues, Wrath of the Sorcerer-King.
5th-Level Templar Spells
Mark of Justice, Break Enchantment, Klar’s Heart, Scrying.
6th-Level Templar Spells
Dispelling-Greater. Braxat Skin, Forbiddance, Wisdom of the Sorcerer-King, Word of Recall.
7th-Level Templar Spells
Confessor’s Flame, Crusade, Scrying-Greater.
8th-Level Templar Spells
Antipathy, Dimensional Lock, Finger of Death.
9th-Level Templar Spells
Energy Drain, Foresight.
Now, where is this Secular Authority feat?
So this is why I haven't received my Order HQ yet, huh? :P Excellent work, Sysane! Congratulations! :D
Now, where is this Secular Authority feat?
I've been working on it ;) Between working on Tradelords stuff and unpacking from the move to the new house time's been tight.
I'll have something for you soon though.
I'll do a formal write-up of the secular authority feat, but its more-or-less the same mechanics for templar secular authority class ability.
1. Saving throws. Maybe good fort saves as well. Compare to Cleric and Favoured Soul
2. Slightly more generous spells known. Even with extra spells of the domainsand enhanced learning they're not going to know that many spells. Perhaps flameblade at level 2, lightning bolt level 3 and maybe Divine Power AKA Kings Power at level 4.
3. No one likes Templars and yet they're a charisma based caster. 2nd based them on Wisdom and as I said no one really likes Templars and yet most of them will be quite charismatic
Abalach Re. Charm,Greed, Lust
Andropinis. Travel, Trade, Wealth
Borys. Destruction,Dragon,Wrath
Daskinor. Inquisition,Madness, Suffering
Dregoth. Deathbound,Planning, Undeath,
Hamanu. Courage,War, Strength,
Kalak. Domination, Tyrany, Hatred,
Lalali-Puy. Animal, Community,Plant,
Nibenay. Knowledge,Magic, Spell,
Oronis.Liberation, Purification, Renewal,
Tectikulay (sp?) Protection,Retribution,War
As for the spell list I've added some. They're giving up alot of spells compared to a Clerics/Druid and other divine spellcasters so give them a few good ones. In general I would recommend they know at least 1 defensive spell, 1 utility spell and 1 offensive spell at each level. I'll have a look for some more higher level spells for them as well.
0-Level Templar Spells (Orisons)
Detect Magic, Detect Poison, Guidance, Light, Read Magic, Resistance
1st-Level Templar Spells
Bless, Cure Light Wounds, Deathwatch, Detect Undead, Divine Favor, Doom, Hand of the Sorcerer-King, Hide From Undead,Inflict Light Wounds
2nd-Level Templar Spells
Aid, Cure Moderate Wounds,Hold Person, Delay Poison, Eagle’s Slender, Enthrall,Flame Blade, Inflict Moderate Wounds, Remove Paralysis, Resist Energy, Restoration-Lesser, Silence, Undetectable Alignment, Zone of Truth.
3rd-Level Templar Spells
Cure Serious Wounds,Dedication, Discern Lies,Dispel Magic, Glyph of Warding, Helping Hand Image of the Sorcerer-King, Inflict Serious Wounds, Lightning Bolt, Locate Object, Obscure Object, Prayer, Remove Disease, Speak with Dead.
4th-Level Templar Spells
Cure Critical Wounds,Command-Greater, Freedom of Movement,Inflict Critical Wounds, Neutralize Poison, Sending, Status, Tongues, Wrath of the Sorcerer-King.
5th-Level Templar Spells
Mark of Justice, Break Enchantment, Klar’s Heart, Scrying.
6th-Level Templar Spells
Dispelling, Greater. Braxat skin, Forbiddance, Harm,Wisdom of the Sorcerer-King, Word of Recall.
7th-Level Templar Spells
Confessor’s Flame, Crusade, Destruction, Scrying-Greater.
8th-Level Templar Spells
Antipathy, Dimensional Lock, Finger of Death.
9th-Level Templar Spells
Energy Drain, Foresight.
About the alignment restriction... I think it should be dropped, and instead have the same alignment rules as clerics (one step within of his SK’s). Also, giving them the cleric Aura (Ex) ability would be nice, too.
The added spells are very good, but I think Sysane got the domain list just right (perhaps giving Knowledge to Oronis instead of Magic, he has the Athasian CIA, after all). It just needs to include the rest of the SKs (the ones that got killed)
About the alignment restriction... I think it should be dropped, and instead have the same alignment rules as clerics (one step within of his SK’s). Also, giving them the cleric Aura (Ex) ability would be nice, too.
I wasn't dis agreeing to much with the domain choice but more than 2 domains per king would be nice.
I like this alot. So the Templar is now sort of a divine Warmage/Beguiler? A few minor nitpicks but I think the class is reasonably solid.
Thanks. Hope it hear that it sees play in people's campaigns.
1. Saving throws. Maybe good fort saves as well. Compare to Cleric and Favoured Soul
I dropped the good fort save as a balancing factor and help off set that the templar has more skill points, are able to cast spells in any type of armor without penalty and they have a higher HD than W&Bs unlike Warmages & Beguiles.
2. Slightly more generous spells known. Even with extra spells of the domainsand enhanced learning they're not going to know that many spells. Perhaps flameblade at level 2, lightning bolt level 3 and maybe Divine Power AKA Kings Power at level
Again, I purposely made templars with a small spells known list as balancing factor. Their list is only slightly less than a W&Bs as shown below:
[HTML]Lvl Beguiler Warmage Templar
0 7 4 6
1 14 13 10
2 18 11 14
3 20 12 13
4 12 12 9
5 10 7 6
6 8 8 7
7 8 8 6
8 7 7 5
9 6 6 4[/HTML]
However, perhaps I could add a spell to the list at the levels you've indicated. I'll mull it over.
3. No one likes Templars and yet they're a charisma based caster. 2nd based them on Wisdom and as I said no one really likes Templars and yet most of them will be quite charismatic
Everyone knows that DS bards are assassins more often than not, but they're a charisma based classed as well. People may not like templars, but that doesn't make them any less influential in polictical circles and their city.
Changed that the templar's alignment must be within one step of his ’s sorcerer-king’s and added Flame Blade to 3rd-level spells known, and Lightning Bolt to 4th-level spells known.
Thanks. Hope it hear that it sees play in people's campaigns.
I dropped the good fort save as a balancing factor and help off set that the templar has more skill points, are able to cast spells in any type of armor without penalty and they have a higher HD than W&Bs unlike Warmages & Beguilers.
Again, I purposely made templars with a small spells known list as balancing factor. Their list is only slightly less than a W&Bs as shown below:
[HTML]Lvl Beguiler Warmage Templar
0 7 4 6
1 14 13 10
2 18 11 14
3 20 12 13
4 12 12 9
5 10 7 6
6 8 8 7
7 8 8 6
8 7 7 5
9 6 6 4[/HTML]
However, perhaps I could add a spell to the list at the levels you've indicated. I'll mull it over.
Everyone knows that DS bards are assassins more often than not, but they're a charisma based classed as well. People may not like templars, but that doesn't make them any less influential in polictical circles and their city.
Hell get it built right and I would recommend make it the official Templar for Athas.org. The problem with designing a divine caster is that Druids and Clerics tend to over shadow them so you have to basically design something close to the cleric in power. Even reasonable min maxing can usually inflate these 2 classes over most of the classes in the game. Clerics and Druids are often beter than fighters, rangers, barbarians, paladin ast well fighting. The main problems with both of the classes are.
1. Druid. Wildshape(usually dire animal)+natural spell+wild armor +animated large wodden shield. AC higher than a fighters, more damage, higher strength. This is just a basic core only build.
2. Cleric. Heavy armor+ buff spells+ spontaneous healing/inflict spells (almost doubles the Clerics prepared spells). Add in domains as well. I won't bring up pure cheese like divine metamagic.
Your Templar is a bit weak in most regards. Can't fight that well, few buff spells, no healing, no heavy armor, skills aern't impressive although better than a Cleric. There isn't really a role for them in the party or something for them to excel at. They are weaker at magic, weaker in combat, weaker in armor and have weak saving throws in comparison.
Beguilers get alot of class features and Warmages are very good at blowing things up. Blowing things up is quite usefull for the average PC part and the Beguiler can replace a rogue or even wizard in an average PC party. While weaker they are excellent at what they do and can carve out a niche. Compared to the big 4 (Psion, Druid, Cleric, Wizard) the Beguiler/Warmage are slightly weaker but have enough enticement for people to want to play one, aern't really broken, and can carve out a niche for their characters to excell at.
As a player I wouldn't run your build of the Templar just yet as its almost begging for a smack down espicially on a world like Athas. Its almost there but not quite. Its niche and purpose is serving the kings and in the DS source materials they often have better offensive magic than Clerics. In game give them access to that magic. They are already a level behind when they get a new spell level. I doubt letting them have Flame Blade which hardly gets used anyway as a level 2 spell not 3rd and Lightning Bolt as a 3rd level spell will overpower them. I added the level 1-4 cure and inflict spells so they are a viable alternative to a Cleric in an average PC party that requires healing. Note that Clerics still get better healing spells for free at level 9+.
The Favoured Soul is a cleric varient has 3 good save, medium armor, and class abilities and is regarded as a weak class and as written its more powerful than the Templar. What tends to break Druids and Clerics is certain spells like Gate or Shapechange or Divine Power. By giving them a very restricted spell list you had better give them alot to make up for it. A restricted spell list also narrows down what magic items they can utilise as well. I'm not to worried really if a Templar uses Charisma or Wisdom to power the spells just I felt wisdom was a slightly better choice.
My arguement is to give them decent offensive spells so they have a niche when compared to a Cleric/Druid or even Favoured Soul and some generic low level buff/healing spells to make them useful enough form level 1 so a PC might actually take one or enable them to replace a Cleric which is the class they are really competing with. You can be generous when it comes to saving throws, bonus feats, and other class abilities without breaking the class. What tends to break spellcasting classes is often.
1. Shapechange spells and class features (hello Druid, Polymorph and Shapechange)
2. Metamagic abuse (Incantrix PrC, Divine Metamagic)
3. To powerful in to many areas (Druid can fight, heal, fly, polymorph and cast spells and more)
4. Specific spells (Mordenkainens Disjunction, Gate, Shapechange, Divine Power, Righteous Might, Shivering Touch, Polymorph,3.0 Haste)
Add an extra domain or 2 for each Sorceror Monarch, add an extra spell known to the level 7-9 spells and have a look at the level 1-6 spells I added to my previous post, good fort and will saves and ask yourself the following questions.
1. Does this class overpower the Cleric/Druid?
2. Does this class overpower the fighter type classes (ie better at fighting than them)
3. Did I miss anything like broken synergy
4. Would I as a player be happy playing this class.
If the ansewers are no, no, no and yes you've probably got a decent class that will add to your game. I would probably play it as its interesting and I would still think the Cleric is more powerful but the Cleric is also boring.
BTW does enhanced learning let you know arcane spells? That might be a kicker. That might break number 3 on the above list and see my previous point about specific spells. Might want to limit that ability to Divine spells or just make it a cleric spell.
I actually had a concept in my head for the Templar domains where one would be flexible, based on your job. So, a guard Templar could have the War domain, or Protection. If he took on another role, a new domain could be chosen to replace that one.
It would be good to get some real playtesting feedback for this. Templars get a lot of spells per day, and they have free run of their spell list, which can result in a lot of potentially underrated flexibility...
BTW does enhanced learning let you know arcane spells? That might be a kicker. That might break number 3 on the above list and see my previous point about specific spells. Might want to limit that ability to Divine spells or just make it a cleric spell.
Its only devine spells. Perhaps I could it could be better worded to make that clearer.
As for being on par with other devine classes you're over looking one important factor. The templar is a sponanteous caster unlike a druid or cleric which gives it an edge over those two classes.
I will consider increasing the templar's Fort save to good however.
Also potentially Gather Information (hey, role as secret police and such ...), Slight of Hand for pocketing bribes without being noticed ;) and Use Magic/Psionic Device for making use of items from the Sorcerer Kings coffers (or an adventurers cache) ...
skills to add: Forgery (Required to oppose a Forgery check). Listen and Spot (unless we want them to have a big blind spot for rogues).
Also potentially Gather Information (hey, role as secret police and such ...), Slight of Hand for pocketing bribes without being noticed ;) and Use Magic/Psionic Device for making use of items from the Sorcerer Kings coffers (or an adventurers cache) ...
Good suggestions. I'll add a few of those to the classes skill list.
I actually had a concept in my head for the Templar domains where one would be flexible, based on your job. So, a guard Templar could have the War domain, or Protection. If he took on another role, a new domain could be chosen to replace that one.
Hummm...now for some reason that sounds vaguely familiar...I wonder where else I might have already seen that done already.
Its only devine spells. Perhaps I could it could be better worded to make that clearer.
As for being on par with other devine classes you're over looking one important factor. The templar is a sponanteous caster unlike a druid or cleric which gives it an edge over those two classes.
I will consider increasing the templar's Fort save to good however.
Spontaneous casting is very overrated. It has a few major drawbacks like limited spell selection , metamagic and delayed spell aquisition. The Beguiler, Warmage and Favoured Soul are regarded as balenced spellcaster as they are less powerful than the Cleric, Driud, Wizard. Your Templar doesn't really compare that well to the other spontaneous casters as its magic is weak as most of the spells on the spell list are weak that even clerics don't often use.
Whats the Templars niche as a PC class. What is it supposed to do. Its outclassed by the pure spellcasters, can't fight as well as most classes and its skill list isn't exactly overpowering. Heres a challenge. Make the changes I suggested in the previous thread (the long one) and post the class in the Classes section or character optimisation boards and see if they can break it using reasonable rules. Ask if its overpowered.
You've done a brilliant job with the class itself its just the spell list is a bit weak and the domains mean every Templar will more or less be a cookie cutter version of another except for what Kning the worship. As written the Favoured Soul outclasses the Templar in virtually every way except for number of spells known and the wis/charisma split for its spellcasting stat. The favoured soul is a weak class most of the time unless run by a really smart player or the campaign is reasonably high level where the power of spells tends to outshine class abilities.
Spontaneous casting is very overrated. It has a few major drawbacks like limited spell selection , metamagic and delayed spell aquisition. The Beguiler, Warmage and Favoured Soul are regarded as balenced spellcaster as they are less powerful than the Cleric, Driud, Wizard. Your Templar doesn't really compare that well to the other spontaneous casters as its magic is weak as most of the spells on the spell list are weak that even clerics don't often use.
So, by giving the templar all the good divine spells that would make them balanced with all the other divine spellcasters?
Whats the Templars niche as a PC class. What is it supposed to do. Its outclassed by the pure spellcasters, can't fight as well as most classes and its skill list isn't exactly overpowering. Heres a challenge. Make the changes I suggested in the previous thread (the long one) and post the class in the Classes section or character optimisation boards and see if they can break it using reasonable rules. Ask if its overpowered.
Their role is that of enforcing their SK's will and law via Secular Authority/Secular Aptitude.
I think I'll stay away from the opt boards. They'll just focus on how to break the class vs. trying to balance it.
You've done a brilliant job with the class itself its just the spell list is a bit weak and the domains mean every Templar will more or less be a cookie cutter version of another except for what Kning the worship. As written the Favoured Soul outclasses the Templar in virtually every way except for number of spells known and the wis/charisma split for its spellcasting stat. The favoured soul is a weak class most of the time unless run by a really smart player or the campaign is reasonably high level where the power of spells tends to outshine class abilities.
Thanks for the praise and support
I fail to see where a templar woukd be a carbon copy of one another though. Between Enhanced Learning and Templarate Lore there's enough room for variation.In the source material and novels Templars always had good battle magic. This could be handled by giving them a handful of wizard invocation spells and a reasonable selection of cleric spells that go boom/hurt ppl or spells like Flameblade.
I don't think a handful of cure and inflict spells at level 1-4 will break them either. Just don't give them shapechange magic or to many buff spells and you should be right.
Clerics tanking around with Divine Favour, Shield of Faith, Magical Vestment, Greater Magic Weapon and Divine Power/Righteous might tend to be a bit strong for but I'm not saying the Templar should get any of those spells. 1 or 2 are probably right. The spells they should focus on would be.
1. Battle magic
2. Divinations (investigating for the city/king
Is there any spell below that you would have major issues letting a Templar use? THey can't buff as well as a Cleric and I gave them mionor healing magic to help out in a PC party and inflict spells as part of their batle magic. Added flameblade, dispel magic, lightning bolt, and harm to the spell list. Maybe add 1 spells at level 7,8, 9 for them to know and its not to bad IMHO. Clerics can't use lightning bolt or flameblade and Templars have more skill points and may be slightly better than a Cleric at blowing stufff up as they have all their magic as spontaneous caster. The Cleric and Druids should still beat them in a melee fight due to heavy armor/wildshape and buff spells for both classes. Give each king an extra domain or 2 so there is some varience for PCs to pick from. I don't really like the level 9 spells but thats more of the Players Handbooks fault as miracle doesn't really fit the Templar concept and neither does True Ressurection.
1st-Level Templar Spells
Bless, Cure Light Wounds, Deathwatch, Detect Undead, Divine Favor, Doom, Hand of the Sorcerer-King, Hide From Undead,Inflict Light Wounds
2nd-Level Templar Spells
Aid, Cure Moderate Wounds,Hold Person, Delay Poison, Eagle’s Slender, Enthrall,Flame Blade, Inflict Moderate Wounds, Remove Paralysis, Resist Energy, Restoration-Lesser, Silence, Undetectable Alignment, Zone of Truth.
3rd-Level Templar Spells
Cure Serious Wounds,Dedication, Discern Lies,Dispel Magic, Glyph of Warding, Helping Hand Image of the Sorcerer-King, Inflict Serious Wounds, Lightning Bolt, Locate Object, Obscure Object, Prayer, Remove Disease, Speak with Dead.
4th-Level Templar Spells
Cure Critical Wounds,Command-Greater, Freedom of Movement,Inflict Critical Wounds, Neutralize Poison, Sending, Status, Tongues, Wrath of the Sorcerer-King.
5th-Level Templar Spells
Mark of Justice, Break Enchantment, Klar’s Heart, Scrying.
6th-Level Templar Spells
Dispelling, Greater. Braxat skin, Forbiddance, Harm,Wisdom of the Sorcerer-King, Word of Recall.
7th-Level Templar Spells
Confessor’s Flame, Crusade, Destruction, Scrying-Greater.
8th-Level Templar Spells
Antipathy, Dimensional Lock, Finger of Death.
9th-Level Templar Spells
Energy Drain, Foresight.
Another idea besides the variable domain idea (which is great btw), is to give them variable bonus feats again based on job. If you just make a short list of bonus feats for each type of job, then you can grant a couple of them somewhere along their progression.
In the source material and novels Templars always had good battle magic. This could be handled by giving them a handful of wizard invocation spells and a reasonable selection of cleric spells that go boom/hurt ppl or spells like Flameblade.
Alright Z, I'll go with a varation of your spell list for now and see how it goes. I took out spells that crossed into other SKs domains (i.e. Harm which would fall under Dregoth).
However, I don't plan on giving templars additional domain selections. Thats to close to being a cleric for my tastes.
I think you should bump them up to 6+intelligence modifier for skill points and added: Spot, Listen, and Search to their list of class skills.
8D HD, cleric BAB progression, turning, spell casting and 6 skill points per level? Thats a bit overboard IMO.
Another idea besides the variable domain idea (which is great btw), is to give them variable bonus feats again based on job. If you just make a short list of bonus feats for each type of job, then you can grant a couple of them somewhere along their progression.
The Templarate Lore ability reflects the various postions the templar may hold and the skills learned from being in it. Retraining rules per PHB II would allow the character swap out undisirable choices. Admittedly, the list could stand to be longer. I may expanded the feat selection by creating a few templar oriented feats.
8D HD, cleric BAB progression, turning, spell casting and 6 skill points per level? Thats a bit overboard IMO.
Yah, just like the Bard is overpowered
. I don't give me the but the bard as limited spellcasting ability line, because it actually has some quite powerful spells at lower levels then other casters and certainly a better spell selection then the templar class presented here, not to mention Bardic Music abilities which are more powerful IMO then Secular Authority.The Templarate Lore ability reflects the various postions the templar may hold and the skills learned from being in it. Retraining rules per PHB II would allow the character swap out undisirable choices. Admittedly, the list could stand to be longer. I may expanded the feat selection by creating a few templar oriented feats.
My mistake, I read that and then forgot about it. It could use a few more options, but otherwise seems fine.
Bards don't have d8 Hit dice and level 7-9m spells. That being said alot of people don't think Bards suck anymore. One of our players more or less broke one and she contributed about 60% of the parties damage total maybe more via bardic music. I have a few more questions but have to go to work.
Right they have d6 hit points, but the Strength of Bardic Music in comparison to Secular Authority balances that out. As to their spells, it doesn't matter that they don't have 7-9th level spells, their spell selection includes both traditional Aracane and Divine Spells and they get some things at lower levels then anyone else does. With the weaker spell selection of Sysanes templar I think their spell casting ability is essentially equivilent.
Crap lvl 9 spells. Energy drain, foresight,wish,
Fair lvl 9 spells. True Ressurection, Meteor Swarm,Miracle
Stupid (broken?) lvl 9 spells Gate, Shapechange,mordenkainens disjunction.
Sysane adding an extra domain or 2 to each monarchs list doesn't overpower the Templar as they are still restricted to 2 domains but it gives them options.
Enhanced learing could also just be replaced with a Cleric spell. Just let the Templar choose a Cleric spell rather than limit it by school or tie a school to a Sorceror King. Maybe rename it to steal spell knowledge or something as that is basically what Templars are doing- stealing spell energy from the elemental planes. Maybe limite it by making a spell with an elemental descriptor of bounds. Just cleans up the class ability while leaving its flavour intact.
Favoured Soul/Cleric is what the Templar will be compared to and in a party of PCs might have to replace a Cleric. The few favoured souls I have seen PCs play often end up selecting spells known by an average Cleric. Theres a few Cleric spells PCs usually always choosedue to them being better than most other Cleric spells of their level. To overpower the Templar I think you would have to put most of those spells on the Templars list. Divine Power, Divine Favor, Shield of Faith,Magical Vestment, Greater Magic Weapon,Righteous Might off the top of my head are the main offenders which alot of Favoured Souls seem to know for some reason.
You could also design Templar feats like Sorceror heritage feats which grant them an extra known spell at each level which is a fixed list of similar type of spells.
Minor mech point would be to substitute Templar levels instead of Cleric levels on domain powers when its relevent like the smite ability of the Destruction domain.
Looking to get some feedback on a revised templar class I've been working on. Its along the line a a divine beguiler or war mage.
It far from complete, but here's what I have currently.
Sysane,
Great job so far with your revision of the Templar. I particularly like the idea of the Templars being able to research other spells, but based on some of the trade paperbacks I was reading (The Brazen Gambit), the templars had to petition the SK for permission to cast a spell, holding the holy symbol and asking for it. How would the class ability play in with this type of restriction?
Speaking of the petitioning, If you are worried about balancing out the templar's spellcasting abilities, The Spirit Shaman core class from the book "Complete Divine" should help out with this. The Spirit Shaman is a spontaneous caster like the Favored Soul, yet in lieu of Spells Known, he gets Spells Retrieved. He may choose any of the spells from the Druid Spell List, but in lieu of the spells being permanent for him, he may change them the next day if desired in the same manner as the Cleric chooses his spells (1 hour meditation after 8 hours rest). The drawback is that the number of spells he can retrieve per day is about half that of the Favored Souls Spells Known. It also fits in with the whole petitioning deal that the Templars have to do with the SK to get their spells in the first place.
Please take a look at the book if you have it and let me know what you think.
Arrikos
Sysane,
Great job so far with your revision of the Templar. I particularly like the idea of the Templars being able to research other spells, but based on some of the trade paperbacks I was reading (The Brazen Gambit), the templars had to petition the SK for permission to cast a spell, holding the holy symbol and asking for it. How would the class ability play in with this type of restriction?
Arrikos
That would be the 1 action casting time most spells have or flavour text from a novel best left out of game rules. I think the spnaneous caster bit of this Templar fits it better than the spells known part of the current Templar.
That would be the 1 action casting time most spells have or flavour text from a novel best left out of game rules. I think the spnaneous caster bit of this Templar fits it better than the spells known part of the current Templar.
I wasn't inferring that Sysane should create a whole new game mechanic to represent the templar petitioning the SK right then and there just to cast the spell, I meant that to show that he has to do some petitioning to get his spells in the first place; hence my second paragraph with the Spirit Shaman. This way, the templar gets to cast them on the fly, and every morning (or whenever he sets it), he calls out to the SK to grant him any changes to his current list of Spells Retrieved. He is limited to some extent in his versatility of casting by the number of Spells Retrieved, but he isn't limited in the variety of spells he can retrieve.
You could also design Templar feats like Sorceror heritage feats which grant them an extra known spell at each level which is a fixed list of similar type of spells.
What are your thoughts about a feat that would allow templars to access spells from a school of magic perviously denied to them? It could be chosen as one of the templar's bonus feats per their Templarate Lore ability.
I wasn't inferring that Sysane should create a whole new game mechanic to represent the templar petitioning the SK right then and there just to cast the spell, I meant that to show that he has to do some petitioning to get his spells in the first place; hence my second paragraph with the Spirit Shaman. This way, the templar gets to cast them on the fly, and every morning (or whenever he sets it), he calls out to the SK to grant him any changes to his current list of Spells Retrieved. He is limited to some extent in his versatility of casting by the number of Spells Retrieved, but he isn't limited in the variety of spells he can retrieve.
While intriguing, many people don't consider BG a cannon source so I would be hesitant to make a mechanic based upon it.
BTW, where are the other SKs (Borys, Tek, Abalach-Re, etc), in case you want to play pre-PP?
I see that you removed the favored weapon from the SKs lists... why is that?
BTW, where are the other SKs (Borys, Tek, Abalach-Re, etc), in case you want to play pre-PP?
In truth? I got lazy in trying to make sense of which weapon would best match up to each SK/city-state. Plus, I felt that it mirrored to closely to clerics and their gods/element.
I'll have the info regarding the other SKs shortly.
I've been busy trying to bang out the last trade house for Trade Lords.In truth? I got lazy in trying to make sense of which weapon would best match up to each SK/city-sate. Plus, I felt that it mirrored to closely to clerics and their gods/element.
Makes sense to me.
Borys - Protection,War
Andropinis - Law,Nobility
Abalach-Re - Charm,Trickery
Tectuktitlay - Death,Weather
Kalak - Destruction,Knowledge
know that there are other non-OGL domains that could better capture the SKs but I've limited it just the ones in the SRD in the off chance that athas.org would incorporated it into the next core rules revision.
I'm also having second thoughts on Enhanced Learning. I may just allow the templar to pick any cleric spell rather than limiting it a specific school of magic as originally suggested by Zardnaar.
I know that there are other non-OGL domains that could better capture the SKs but I've limited it just the ones in the SRD in the off chance instance that athas.org would incorporated it into the next core rules revision.
You know, you may be in a position to help that happen. :P
http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/divineDomains.html
You know, you may be in a position to help that happen. :P
I could be. ;)
Do you know that you can use the domains in the divine section of the SRD as well? It'd add some flexibility to the choices...
http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/divineDomains.html
Yes. Some of those very same domains have already been used :P
In regards to granting some more variation to individual templars, perhaps have a pool of common domains for all the SK's in addition to their specific choices, perhaps Knowledge, War, Nobility, and the Alignments (barring oppositions), since they were all the Champions of Rajaat and have a fair ammount of history in common.
If you're also trying to keep the main list of spells small, you could consider granting some additional domains as they Level up (bonus domain at 5 or 10 or 15 or what have you, this might help the folks who find them sub-par).
Just some random ideas, I really like the direction you've got this headed in.
Jack
I like what you have going here alot Sysane, very cool.
Thanks JM.
I think I may stay with what I have currently for the time being. I feel that in lifting the school requirement on the Enhanced Learning ability will allow for a bit more spell variation for the templar.
What are your thoughts about a feat that would allow templars to access spells from a school of magic perviously denied to them? It could be chosen as one of the templar's bonus feats per their Templarate Lore ability.
I don't really have any problem wih this depending on how its implemented.
With regards to Domains I didn't say a Templar needed more Domains but more domains to choose from- at least 3 would be nice IMHO and a PrC might be able to grant access to another one. They can still only pick 2.
As long as you are careful with what individual spells you put on their list you won't break the Templar class even with lotsa class abilities. Even a Templar of Hamanu for example with Strength and War domains which grants acces to Divine Power won't be as scary as a cleric buffed up in full plate armor for example. To tank around like the the Templar will have to multiclass, spend a feat and still probably won't be able to buff up as well since that a commen complaint about Clerics being they tend to out perform Fighter types due to various spells.
As a general rule I would try and give them at least 3 spells known at each level roughly divided into offensive, defensive and utility spells. More than this at level 1 spells are fine of course at level 9 only 3 maybe as they get 2 more known from domains and the class ability that grants extra spells. Since they know so few spells try and give them good ones as well but maybe not to many stupid ones like Gate or Timestop. The odd arcane or Druid spell shouldn't hurt either if you're having trouble finding decent cleric spells.
I think you should bump them up to 6+intelligence modifier for skill points and added: Spot, Listen, and Search to their list of class skills.
Already mentioned spot and listen, but they should definately get search. One of their primary jobs being to find contraband...
Sysane,
Great job so far with your revision of the Templar. I particularly like the idea of the Templars being able to research other spells, but based on some of the trade paperbacks I was reading (The Brazen Gambit), the templars had to petition the SK for permission to cast a spell, holding the holy symbol and asking for it. How would the class ability play in with this type of restriction?
That's pretty much the flavor of divine spellcasting. If I'm a cleric, I'm petitioning my god for a spell effect. It's pure flavor, not to be reflected in the mechanics.
That's pretty much the flavor of divine spellcasting. If I'm a cleric, I'm petitioning my god for a spell effect. It's pure flavor, not to be reflected in the mechanics.
Well, if the ability was just rewritten slightly.... It could say that for the templars exemplary service they are rewarded with access to a spell not normally granted to most templars. Or something like that anyway.
I don't really see why the flavor text of the mechanic should be out of sync with the way Templars are suppose to be granted spells.
That's pretty much the flavor of divine spellcasting. If I'm a cleric, I'm petitioning my god for a spell effect. It's pure flavor, not to be reflected in the mechanics.
True enough.
While intriguing, many people don't consider BG a cannon source so I would be hesitant to make a mechanic based on upon it.
True enough.
Any chance you were able to do anything with that Secular Authority feat?
I am not going to 4th period.
I demand :D please...
I am not going to 4th period.
I'm thinking of this as well. Got to much $$$$ invested in 3.5 to change over. Not opposed to 4th ed as such but its has only been 4 years ATM since 3.5 rolled out.
If hi level Druids, Clerics and Wizards are better balenced thats my main incentive to switch.
Thanks
I really like better the athas.org templar for DS 3 dont know about this new templar though... Just my opinion (its more simpler)
Your welcome to your opinion, but have to ask, which version are you saying is the simpler one? The current DS3 core or my revised one?
You won't break it or over power it unless you give them some really dumb spells like polymorph effects or Gate and Miracle. I would also add inflict light/moderate/serious/critical wounds to the spell list and make Flamestrike a 4th level spell as well. Those spells fit the theme of magic Templars have used in various DS novels and and that would give them some decent low level battle magic as well.
They will likely be better at blasting things than a cleric but a Cleric could probably take them in a melee fight due to buff spells like Divine Power, Righteous Might and some other offenders in other books.If you can hit that interesting spot where people want to play them but they're not a broken as Clerics and Druids but not useless I think you're golden.
And where is that Secular Authority feat again? :P
Secular authority shouldn't really be a game mechanic. If a templar decides to arrest you you're under arrest although combat/fleeing may be an option.
Kinda like you don't need mechanics for the city watch in a normal D&D game.
And where is that Secular Authority feat again? :P
Its in the works, but I've been bogged down with personal stuff. To qoute cnahumck "life's been @#$%ing on me lately".
Its in the works, but I've been bogged down with personal stuff. To qoute cnahumck "life's been @#$%ing on me lately".
I don't remember when I said that, but it seems appropriate way to often for most people.
I don't remember when I said that, but it seems appropriate way to often for most people.
I thought you had in one of the recent templarate e-mail discussions.
I thought you had in one of the recent templarate e-mail discussions.
I probably did. It seems a default setting lately.
Great Idea on the Templarate Lore, that one should be added to the DSC 3 Templar, although it should have some combat oriented feats too, not too many, kinda of like Combat Expertise, Improved Feint (since the templar is also combat oriented in some sense)
I like the DSC3 Templar edition, yours is interesting but I feel it like a mix of Iron Heroes, and the book with the crusader and warblade classes
Its actually more in line with the warmage and the beguiler classes from Complete Arcane and PHB II.
the idea to spend a Feat so you can get the Secular Authority kinda of removes the Templar essence
It won't be easy for non-templars to gain the feat. Nobles and Senators should have the ability to reverse and contest the sentences dolled out by templars. Plus, templars will be able to use Secular Authority in ways that that non-templars can’t.
You'll see what I mean once I actually get off my duff and write out the feat,
Its actually more in line with the warmage and the beguiler classes from Complete Arcane and PHB II.
It won't be easy for non-templars to gain the feat. Nobles and Senators should have the ability to reverse and contest the sentences dolled out by templars. Plus, templars will be able to use Secular Authority in ways that that non-templars can’t.
You'll see what I mean once I actually get off my duff and write out the feat,
Consider this a gentle push. I want to see it.