Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 lord_zeb_02 Jul 19, 2007 13:06:48	I have been reading up on old Mordy in my limited GH books (and Canonfire!). One recurring theme was his system of "complex neutrality". I really like TN as an alignment, and am hoping there are some older sources that delve into what the complex system of his neutrality covers? Or thoughts as to what you think it might be...? I have a Cleric concept in mind that follows a similar path, and would like to explore other thoughts about TN. I historically play it as Rick from Casablanca, where the personal matter more than the bigger picture. Mordenkainen seems more in tune with the bigger picture, so co-opting some of his version might work out for my future PC. One of the things I read recently mentioned that Mordenkainen also works to oppose too much Good... any examples in the lore? Thanks much!
#2 rob_douglas Jul 19, 2007 16:14:46	Let's see - he was the one that released Zuggtmoy from her prison beneath the Temple of Elemental Evil. That would qualify. ROB
#3 lord_zeb_02 Jul 20, 2007 8:28:08	Thanks for the reply! Is there a book or game accessory that talks about him releasing Zuggtmoy, or is it just part of the lore? I know a bit superficially about GH, but not much about the lore...hence the request for any other sources to read or thoughts about M's neutrality philosophy.
#4 rob_douglas Jul 20, 2007 10:52:20	Gosh - it is in the Gord the Rogue series. I think it is in the second book, Artifact of Evil.... Look here http://home.comcast.net/~chris.s/flanpc.html and search for Zuggtmoy. It is under a section on Mordenkainen. It tells how he was involved. Again, I think it was Gord the Rogue Book 2. This resource is based on Greyhawk as presented in those books. ROB
#5 lord_zeb_02 Jul 20, 2007 12:34:36	Wow, that's a great resource you linked to. Checking it out now, thanks very much! I didn't realize there was an actual Lords of Balance organization floating around...very cool!
#6 twiceborn Jul 20, 2007 21:34:29	Let's see - he was the one that released Zuggtmoy from her prison beneath the Temple of Elemental Evil. That would qualify. ROB Wasn't that Lord Robilar?
#7 grodog Jul 20, 2007 22:12:33	In the original campaign it was Robilar, in the novel it was Iggwilv (with some assistance from Mordy, apparently---perhaps he lent her the Silver Key of Portals? ;) ).
#8 ripvanwormer Jul 21, 2007 9:36:34	Mordenkainen also freed Iuz, giving Robilar disks infused with his Disjunction spell to break the wards that bound him. He did this deliberately, in the belief that Iuz would act to counter the rise of Tharizdun (which the cambion did attempt to do in the Gord books by hoarding one of the Theoparts for himself rather than allow it to be used to free the Dark God as the lawful and neutral aspects of evil desired).
#9 theocratissak Jul 21, 2007 13:11:31	Hi all - If you really would like more insight on neutral ol' Mordy, then I suggest subscribing to Wolfgang Bauer's new Kobold Quarterly magazine. It's a PDF. In there is a VERY long interview with Erik Mona. He does quite a bit of referencing on Mordy and his neutrality. Besides that, I'd say that KQ is an awesome bit of reading. And it reminds me of the only 1 and 2 issues of Troll magazine that were released back in the mid-90's. So for $16 you get the 4 issue subscription and you'll know about Derro, Erik Mona, the scribe of Devils and so other cool things in 32 pages. Hope that helps you to buy the magazine, so that Wolfgang will make just enough money to keep producing the thing. Be Well. Be Well Read. Theocrat Issak
#10 grodog Jul 22, 2007 9:05:56	Issak--- I'll second the Mona interview, though I do wish that more of my GH Qs had been asked/answered (only a few were included, alas...).
#11 lord_zeb_02 Jul 22, 2007 14:32:48	That was a great recommendation. Thanks! Mordy as pure ego... I like it. Really looking forward to the Expedition to Castle Greyhawk... it's the only Expedition book I"m likely to pick up.
#12 argaud Jul 23, 2007 6:22:21	It might have been Mordenkained was behind, or at least accomplice, of the kidnapping and murder (vampirization?) of Prince Thrommel of Furyondy to prevent Veluna and Furyondy from merging into a superpower of good.
#13 yellowdingo Aug 10, 2007 9:28:17	Mordenkainen is as neutral as Tharizdun. Hes the interventionist kind of Neutral that scares Kings. "I'm sorry but you cant do that!" "What do you mean?" "No slaughtering Bingo the Butcher!" "He just burned that City." Waves hand and teleports St Cuthbert's supreme paladin to the Swamps south of Saserraine. "Right! Now you!" "You are going to seek out the sword of KAS and stick it in Vecna!" "Vecna Lives?" Bingo Runs screaming... "Damn!" Mord looks round an spots an ignorant sheepherder.. "Hey you. How would you like to become emperor of KET? You just need to find the sword of KAS."
#14 extempus Aug 14, 2007 2:39:31	Mordenkainen also freed Iuz, giving Robilar disks infused with his Disjunction spell to break the wards that bound him. He did this deliberately, in the belief that Iuz would act to counter the rise of Tharizdun (which the cambion did attempt to do in the Gord books by hoarding one of the Theoparts for himself rather than allow it to be used to free the Dark God as the lawful and neutral aspects of evil desired). It seems odd to me that Mordenkainen would not only take such a calculated risk, but that he'd actually come up with such an idea in the first place. I've often wondered if Iggwilv (in disguise) was really the inspiration, cleverly duping him into freeing her son...
#15 thanael Aug 14, 2007 9:40:56	There used to be a nice thread on the realmsofevil forums on Mordy's Neutrality and how it ties to his book, the Codex of Mordenkainen, where he describes how he learned of the Blood War and the Bringer of Doom. Iirc he wants to subvert the Blood War spilling to Oerth.
#16 lord_zeb_02 Aug 14, 2007 10:04:46	Sounds interesting. RealmsofEvil.com?? Don't see any forums when I go there, or is it .org or .net or something?
#17 thanael Aug 14, 2007 15:27:06	It was pitsofevil, sorry about that. Here´s a link http://greyhawkonline.com/pitsofevil/v2/YaBB.pl But even though I reregistered I couldn´t find the thread. Seems it was purged or lost in the move/upgrade/whatever. If someone had a link to the old boards we could try the waybackmachine perhaps. *casts summon ripvanwormer*
#18 ripvanwormer Aug 14, 2007 18:58:57	It seems odd to me that Mordenkainen would not only take such a calculated risk, but that he'd actually come up with such an idea in the first place. I've often wondered if Iggwilv (in disguise) was really the inspiration, cleverly duping him into freeing her son... Actually, Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk goes into detail about this. Mordenkainen hoped that Robilar and Riggby would kill Iuz, but his plan went disastrously wrong. So what I said before was incorrect. It was something the Living Greyhawk Journal #0 implied, but apparently it's been retconned. I mean, Mordenkainen was still ultimately responsible for freeing Iuz, but he didn't do it to counter the rise of Tharizdun or anything like that. At least, Expedition doesn't suggest he did. I suppose we can still speculate he had other motives. Maybe he knew that Robilar would fail. Maybe he sent Bigby and Tenser in to interrupt things, rather than to help. Maybe if they hadn't interfered, Robilar and Riggby would have succeeded in their task, and Iuz would be dead. Well, banished, anyway, likely for a century, as his father had been banished by Iggwilv decades before. As long as Iuz's soul object is intact, he can't be permanently slain.
#19 ripvanwormer Aug 14, 2007 19:32:50	There used to be a nice thread on the realmsofevil forums on Mordy's Neutrality and how it ties to his book, the Codex of Mordenkainen, where he describes how he learned of the Blood War and the Bringer of Doom. Iirc he wants to subvert the Blood War spilling to Oerth. That sounds like something I wrote. Basically, as recounted in the Monstrous Compendium Outer Planes Appendix, Mordenkainen once had a vision of the Blood War, which he recorded in his journal, the Codex of Mordenkainen. Here, I might as well dig out the exact quote. Mordenkainen is a powerful mage from Oerth. He suggests that a day will come when the plotting of the baatezu will come to fruition and a gate will be opened into the Prime Material Plane. The following writing is excerpted from the Codex of Mordenkainen: Perhaps it was madness that compelled me to scry into the Abyss, or perhaps it was my ever growing hunger for knowledge. Both, I think, are equal curses. ... I prepared all as had been described in the ancient tomes. Every detail was checked a dozen times to insure it was correct, and then it was checked a dozen more times. When all was complete, I performed the act that caused me to pass into a deep sleep in which I dreamed dreams of both history and prophesy. I learned of many things during that ritual, but of one thing did I learn much: thee Blood War. It was shown to me that the great evil of the two pits of darkness was engaged in a battle of infinity. They clashed together in endless energy and struggle and would likely continue to clash for ever and ever. When I had seen this battle I shuddered and a great fear came over me. I was inclined to break the trance and leave my dream state. But then I viewed a frightening sight. A thousand times a thousand strands of unknown substance extended from infinity to infinity. They were the coils of time and written upon t hem were the histories of all deeds and places. They passed through all things in their way and tied all things together. And when I saw that the strand that spoke fo the Blood War passed through the lower planes and then directly through the heart of mankind, I truly knew fear. What I speculated in the Realms of Evil thread was that this was the turning point in Mordenkainen's life, when he stopped being a selfish adventurer and became the mad manipulator he is today - that everything he does is in the hope that by keeping a fine balance between Good and Evil, Law and Chaos, the fiends will not be able to pull the Oerth closer to the Lower Planes, and the destiny he foresaw will not come to pass. I don't think the Bringer of Doom would tie in at all, though. It's a box that summons hordlings, not really a threat to existence, and not anything related directly to the Blood War. I can imagine the various Blood War armies would love to have it, of course.
#20 zombiegleemax Aug 14, 2007 20:53:31	Fascinating stuff.
#21 Cennedi Aug 19, 2007 11:02:35	anything that is not good must be evil. :p