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Realism in your Games

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
denbyak
Aug 23, 2007 7:21:34 Hello. Ive been reading and not posting to much so I apologize about that. I was wondering how seriouse do you take your games and your player responses. I have been playing with a group for the last 15 years and we try for as much realism as possible in a fantasy world. Why NPC's do what they do to even why a NPC mage or fighter chooses the spells and feats that I give them all the way to using real world physics (when applicable). We have even been trying to tweak the combat system to make it more realistic and deadly especially since the implimentation of 3.5 which seems to buff characters up fast. I also take a hand in every skills and aspect of Character development so PCs do not take feats that do not make sense just for the ability and the same goes for levels in other classes, I do not just give stuff away but make them earn it just like in real life. I find it makes my PCs try harder adn respect and value the things they earn and its nice to see them try hard or fall into plots and traps and be tempted IRL for things they want and do and make thoes choices they would not normally do but will because their choices dictate it.
#2
zombiegleemax
Aug 23, 2007 16:31:26 It's hard to have realism when you've got magic, pscionics and little people running around.

My games are more athropological in nature. THe PCs will belong to a tribe and they'll have to survive.
#3
denbyak
Aug 23, 2007 21:28:43 Well Magic and psionics are just sciences WE dont understand or use. But that is another post. What about your NPCs do they have their own lives and goals. I mentioned that I treat my NPCs as real people or real characters and so they react realistically. Things go on around the PCs sort of like morrowind where things happen even if the PCs are not around. Players try to drink endless ammounts of healing potions and think there are no side affects, they try to gain feats or levels just because they are eligable without any realism to the gaining. You still need people to teach you things. That is the kind of realism I am talking about.
#4
Silverblade_The_Enchanter
Aug 25, 2007 13:39:08 Wlel, folk learn things through peronoal experience and insight, FYI. They do not always need training, which is a conceited notion in the end: Who trains the trainer? ;)

But, saying "Your character really wants to learn some fighting skills from the bodyguard Khaldathris, a master of defencive fighting and quick wits, but he charges 500 cp for the privilege for a week"...and that is your DM stipulation to gain a level/feat, but just for this level, makes sense, rather than saying "You HAVE to train with a trainer every level!", see what I mean?

For gritty realism, I insist on folk NOT wearing armour unless they can reasonably get away without exhaustion, and making everyone damned suspicious of you clad in amrour and carrying large weapons in town, for goodness sake! ;)

If you wish more brutal lethality, here's an idea:
-Any time someone is hit when they are flat footed, thus unaware and precise strikes applied, or, whenever a critical is scored, apply the coup de grace rules:
If the defender survives the damage, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die. A rogue also gets her extra sneak attack damage against a helpless opponent when delivering a coup de grace.

That makes sense, and means fights can be very quickly lethal. For exmaple, a rogue has been hired to assassinate a gladiator. In RL, you would expect the assassin to have a damned good chance of killing the gladiator outright, if he catches the gladiator by surprise, but get his ass beaten to a pulp if he doesn't.
However, take this example:

lvl 7 elf rogue, hp 35 (average), S 15 D 18 C14 I14 W 13 Ch 12, dagger +1 bone 1d4+2+4d6 sneak, attack +7
vs
lvl 7 fighter, hp 73 (average), S17 D 16 C 18 I12 W12 CH 10, masterwork morningstar used in two hands 1d8+4+2, attack +12/+7, weapon focus/specialization

quite obvious the fighter is NOT going to die from a sneak attack, which is ridiculous, for a gritty DS game..but, if you use coup de grace...oh yes, he may well die!

hm?
#5
zombiegleemax
Aug 25, 2007 13:47:37 10 + damage dealt is too high. It's not just 'may well die' - on average, that fighter is going to have to make a DC 27.5 fort save to make it through the first round. Personally, I'm all for realism - to a certain point. This crosses the line.
#6
zombiegleemax
Aug 26, 2007 1:32:28 Screw your PCs over. Break the trust.

Have them buy a magical item that turned out to be a scam. Have them robbed, duped etc. Have them used as pawns by templars and nobles. That will be a big, unexpected dose of reality for them. Dark Sun, is indeed, brutal.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 denbyak Aug 23, 2007 7:21:34	Hello. Ive been reading and not posting to much so I apologize about that. I was wondering how seriouse do you take your games and your player responses. I have been playing with a group for the last 15 years and we try for as much realism as possible in a fantasy world. Why NPC's do what they do to even why a NPC mage or fighter chooses the spells and feats that I give them all the way to using real world physics (when applicable). We have even been trying to tweak the combat system to make it more realistic and deadly especially since the implimentation of 3.5 which seems to buff characters up fast. I also take a hand in every skills and aspect of Character development so PCs do not take feats that do not make sense just for the ability and the same goes for levels in other classes, I do not just give stuff away but make them earn it just like in real life. I find it makes my PCs try harder adn respect and value the things they earn and its nice to see them try hard or fall into plots and traps and be tempted IRL for things they want and do and make thoes choices they would not normally do but will because their choices dictate it.
#2 zombiegleemax Aug 23, 2007 16:31:26	It's hard to have realism when you've got magic, pscionics and little people running around. My games are more athropological in nature. THe PCs will belong to a tribe and they'll have to survive.
#3 denbyak Aug 23, 2007 21:28:43	Well Magic and psionics are just sciences WE dont understand or use. But that is another post. What about your NPCs do they have their own lives and goals. I mentioned that I treat my NPCs as real people or real characters and so they react realistically. Things go on around the PCs sort of like morrowind where things happen even if the PCs are not around. Players try to drink endless ammounts of healing potions and think there are no side affects, they try to gain feats or levels just because they are eligable without any realism to the gaining. You still need people to teach you things. That is the kind of realism I am talking about.
#4 Silverblade_The_Enchanter Aug 25, 2007 13:39:08	Wlel, folk learn things through peronoal experience and insight, FYI. They do not always need training, which is a conceited notion in the end: Who trains the trainer? ;) But, saying "Your character really wants to learn some fighting skills from the bodyguard Khaldathris, a master of defencive fighting and quick wits, but he charges 500 cp for the privilege for a week"...and that is your DM stipulation to gain a level/feat, but just for this level, makes sense, rather than saying "You HAVE to train with a trainer every level!", see what I mean? For gritty realism, I insist on folk NOT wearing armour unless they can reasonably get away without exhaustion, and making everyone damned suspicious of you clad in amrour and carrying large weapons in town, for goodness sake! ;) If you wish more brutal lethality, here's an idea: -Any time someone is hit when they are flat footed, thus unaware and precise strikes applied, or, whenever a critical is scored, apply the coup de grace rules: If the defender survives the damage, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die. A rogue also gets her extra sneak attack damage against a helpless opponent when delivering a coup de grace. That makes sense, and means fights can be very quickly lethal. For exmaple, a rogue has been hired to assassinate a gladiator. In RL, you would expect the assassin to have a damned good chance of killing the gladiator outright, if he catches the gladiator by surprise, but get his ass beaten to a pulp if he doesn't. However, take this example: lvl 7 elf rogue, hp 35 (average), S 15 D 18 C14 I14 W 13 Ch 12, dagger +1 bone 1d4+2+4d6 sneak, attack +7 vs lvl 7 fighter, hp 73 (average), S17 D 16 C 18 I12 W12 CH 10, masterwork morningstar used in two hands 1d8+4+2, attack +12/+7, weapon focus/specialization quite obvious the fighter is NOT going to die from a sneak attack, which is ridiculous, for a gritty DS game..but, if you use coup de grace...oh yes, he may well die! hm?
#5 zombiegleemax Aug 25, 2007 13:47:37	10 + damage dealt is too high. It's not just 'may well die' - on average, that fighter is going to have to make a DC 27.5 fort save to make it through the first round. Personally, I'm all for realism - to a certain point. This crosses the line.
#6 zombiegleemax Aug 26, 2007 1:32:28	Screw your PCs over. Break the trust. Have them buy a magical item that turned out to be a scam. Have them robbed, duped etc. Have them used as pawns by templars and nobles. That will be a big, unexpected dose of reality for them. Dark Sun, is indeed, brutal.