My idea is that Sielba of Yaramuke created them. Being so close to Urik and its ever invincible army provoked the Empress into developing a new elite-guard. With her renowned wealth she rewarded teams of adventurers/slavers for the capture of giants for use in her new breeding program. After a few years of experimenting she was rewarded with the first-born half-giants. Within two and a half centuries she had enough half-giants in her army that she felt emboldened to begin the series of events that lead up to the destruction of Yaramuke as detailed in "Black Flames". Upon his victory, Hamanu captured as many as he could and brought them back to Urik. Others fled the devastation into the waiting arms of slavers and ended up being sold in all the major cities of the Tyr Region.
A timeline of events would be:
- FY -2024: Fall of Rajaat
- FY -2018: Sielba begins half-giant breeding program
- FY -2015: First half-giants born.
- FY -1747: Sielba's army reinforced by elite half-giant troops.
- FY -1740: Destruction of Yaramuke
- FY -1735: Half-giant breeding programs begun by every sorcerer-king in the Tyr Region.
Note: Creation of the half-giants would be easier than creation of the dray. Dregoth was creating a new race out of another while Sielba was just combining two existing ones. No ancient life-shaping knowledge was necessary - just the knowledge of the "birds and the bees"
Note: Creation of the half-giants would be easier than creation of the dray. Dregoth was creating a new race out of another while Sielba was just combining two existing ones. No ancient life-shaping knowledge was necessary - just the knowledge of the "birds and the bees"
Except that in one of the books it states explicitly that Half-Giants were created magically. It's not just simple cross-breeding, but a magically-enhanced hybrid life form created using two races (in this case Giant and Human).
Except that in one of the books it states explicitly that Half-Giants were created magically. It's not just simple cross-breeding, but a magically-enhanced hybrid life form created using two races (in this case Giant and Human).
I agree totally. I only meant that she would have an understanding of male and female reproductive processes. She would have used her magic to facilitate the process.
So Black Flames has details on the fall of Yaramuke?! Anyone care to relay those details? I thought I knew everything there was to know about Athasian history!
Hamanu used to tap that(Sielba)
Sielba got bitter about something (maybe Hamanu dumped her?), and tried to attack Urik.
Hamanu shanked her with a STONE KNIFE (yes, an SK got killed with a Stone Age, mundane shiv............And that's just one more reason why Hamanu rocks)
Hamanu sacked her city (Yaramuke), plundered it, and gave the Dragon enough of the treasure to pay for the construction of Ur Draxa. (This was to keep Borys from levelling Urik as punishment for Hamanu killing a Sorceror King)
The levy of sacrificial victims from the other city-states got increased, to compensate for the lack of Sielba's contribution
It's also the case that half-giants are a race and breed true. They're not actually a half-breed; the only magic required was in making the first batch. So, the other city states wouldn't have needed to start breeding programs, they'd just need to take in the refugees ...
i also believe they were created using a life shaping device that never worked properly.
Dasch work up is a good read regardless and i would like to hear more.
...I seem to remember that the Wanderer's Journal puts the creation of the half-giant race at about 500 years ago. If that's the case, then it pretty much knocks Sielba out of the running.
The Dark Sun Boxed Set, p10, states: Though no one knows for certain, half-giants seen to be a fairly young race, perhaps only a few tens of centuries old. If I am not mistaken that would be around 2000 years at the least. The timing for Sielba is perfect.
It's also the case that half-giants are a race and breed true. They're not actually a half-breed; the only magic required was in making the first batch. So, the other city states wouldn't have needed to start breeding programs, they'd just need to take in the refugees ...
That's true, however, after only a handful of centuries and a war there would not be many half-giants available. To speed things up, one might gather a few together and force them to reproduce. Later on the numbers would be sufficient to support unregulated reproduction. It's what we on earth do with other endangered species - Pandas, Cranes, etc.
That's true, however, after only a handful of centuries and a war there would not be many half-giants available. To speed things up, one might gather a few together and force them to reproduce. Later on the numbers would be sufficient to support unregulated reproduction. It's what we on earth do with other endangered species - Pandas, Cranes, etc.
Which might be why they are so dumb. Maybe the original Half Giants were more intelligent, but the forced breeding with their sisters and brothers made their genetics weaker.
The Dark Sun Boxed Set, p10, states: Though no one knows for certain, half-giants seen to be a fairly young race, perhaps only a few tens of centuries old. If I am not mistaken that would be around 2000 years at the least. The timing for Sielba is perfect.
Yep. Faulty memory, must be getting old.
In some lost millennium, as a bizarre experiment or perhaps as some sort of curse, giants were magically crossbred with humans.
...
Though no one knows for certain, half-giants seen to be a fairly young race, perhaps only a few tens of centuries old.
Dark Sun Revised Campaign Setting; The Age of Heroes p14 -
Half-giants are a relatively new addition to the races of Athas. The union was originally the result of magical experiments conducted by the sorcerer-kings. When the sorcerer-kings first took control of the cities of the Tyr Region, they used their arcane powers to cross humans with giants, striving to create warriors and laborers of gigantic proportions. Because of this turbulent beginning, the half-giants of today's Athas have no culture of their own to draw upon, no ancient traditions to turn to for inspiration.
Wanderer's Chronicle p25 -
Half-giants are one of the newer races to walk upon the burning sands of Athas. The race was created by the magical experiments conducted during the first years of the Age of the Sorcerer-Kings. At the time, the sorcerer-kings were looking to create ultimate warriors to protect their domains. Because of these origins, half-giants have no culture of their own to draw upon, no ancient traditions and homelands to turn to for inspiration.
This is what I could find going through all official 2e stuff. I do also seem to remember something to the effect that Dregoth would be intrigued by muls and half-giants, but, unfortunately, I've apparently misplaced the monster entry insert for City by the Silt Sea (in which I believe that info would've been). Any chance someone might confirm this for me, as this would help nail down a time. Dregoth was killed almost 2,000 years ago, so if I'm right than half-giants would've come after that.
Something that might back up this information, from City by the Silt Sea p3 -
The halflings of the Blue Age possessed the secret to creating new races, and Dregoth was determined to recover that lost knowledge from the ancient days.
So we know that the creation of the halfgiants occured after the Rebellion, but IF it happened before the death of Dregoth than the knowledge of creating new races would not have been "lost knowledge from the ancient days", but merely "lost knowledge from a few decades ago"
Since the WJ seems to set the time at 2k years ago, I could go for Sielba. She seemed to have her stuff together, beautiful safe city.
RaFoaDK also paints Sielba as more relaxed and less inhibited than some of the other champions. I think that she'd be more likely to get over the human supremacist hangup, while other champions would be initially repulsed at making a demi-race that mingled human with Giantish.
I can't picture the Giant-slaying champion being the one to make half-giants.
Would those with half-breed's as potential targets be usable?
Muls and Half-elves?
I think it'd almost have to be at least a couple o' SK's working together. It took the feat several hundred years for Dregoth, perhaps the most knowlegable in transformation magic, to accomplish working by himself.
I don't see the Sorcerer-Kings cooperating with each other to create Half-giants. It seems to go against their nature. They are usually shown cooperating under extreme cases of duress. It seems more logical that one would create them to get an edge against the others.
I feel that all the references to the Sorcerer-Kings creating them should be interpreted loosely - as though one created them and the others helped to spread them. I don't believe anyone at TSR ever developed the idea and so provided a vague notion of the half-giants origin as general information.
I can't picture the Giant-slaying champion being the one to make half-giants.
Just wanted to make clear that in my reference to Dregoth seeking the knowledge of creating a new race, I wasn't referring to half-giants. He needed the information so he could create the dray. My point was that he needed to go way back to find any usefull knowledge, so it would seem that no races were created in those years recent to his demise. Thus, likely no half-giants, just yet.
Perhaps, fluff-wise, mixing human and giant together is an order of magnitude easier than creating a dray, what with the two main ingredients already being there for the taking.
Don't ask me how.
Spelunking come to mind.
Maybe it's not finding a way to create a new race that took Dregoth so long, but rather finding out what were the - in his opinion - perfect racial characteristics of his would-be uber race, and what mixes of spell incantations would bring a dray about.
Perhaps, fluff-wise, mixing human and giant together is an order of magnitude easier than creating a dray, what with the two main ingredients already being there for the taking.
Agreed. Mixing human and giant together also might not be what Dregoth thought of as creating a new race.
Alternately, maybe a few male humans and female giants got awfully lonely somewhere in the vicinity of the Pristine Tower ... and some SK got hold of the result, bred them, and claimed to have "invented" the half-giant.
Agreed. Mixing human and giant together also might not be what Dregoth thought of as creating a new race.
Bruno and Seker, being knowledgable in epic spells, might be able to tell us if it's cheaper/less demanding to research a spell that mixes two existing races together to create a third, compared to transforming one race into an entirely new one.
A few thousands of CPs less, a ton of Spellcraft DC less, that would be an approriate rule-based reason why it took Dregoth longer to accomplish.
One might also be tempted to toss in an ad hoc penalty for an undead epic spellcaster to use the life seed.
Good point, Penn & Bruno.
One might also be tempted to toss in an ad hoc penalty for an undead epic spellcaster to use the life seed.
Not to mention the time taken to track down spell components/mitigating factors, which would've been hard to come by for him on Athas (kinda forgot about that before now). And had he used the planar gate yet...can't remember.
Epic magic could do but it doesn't have to be used;) Level 5-9 spells could modify a race, while level 7-9 spells could create varients judging by wish, clone, miracle, various polymorph effects, and reincarnate/ressurection effects.
Creating a new race from nothing would probably be epic and require the life seed. Conjuring up a living creature permanently should be hard even for a goblin/orc whatever but mashing 2 togather or breeding 2 shouldn't be that hard as far as high level spells go in a fantasy enviroment.
You could probably also do it with non epic spells.
It needs to be permanent, non-dispellable, and cause the new creature to breed true. These are very specific requirements that only epic spells can have.
It needs to be permanent, non-dispellable, and cause the new creature to breed true. These are very specific requirements that only epic spells can have.
Not really. Remember the classic D&D archtype of a mad wizard breeding/creating new lifeforms? Not all of them are epic level on alot of worlds and arcane users don't have acces to life seeds in any event so any arcane caster creating new species would have to use non epic spells to do it..
As I said a wish spell could probably achieve it but a epic spell might be cheaper to cast (no 5000xp per half giant). Theres plenty of D&D examples on various worlds of non epic spellcasters manipulating life to create new monsters or creating new monsters..
A polymorph effect+ wish spell could probably create a half giant not counting any other non epic spells one could research to do it. Theres some very powerful level 9 spells out there which would do more impressive effects than this (Stasis Clone, Apocalypse From the Sky etc).
2E references, or fantasy references in general, to moderately powerful wizards making new races don't apply to 3E anymore. For example, the FR guy who created the blood orcs (whatever their name) actually now needs to be an epic caster (if these orcs breed true) or to have an epic artifact that does it for him. Otherwise it means all blood orcs breed normal orcs.
If the father was the giant, well, it's just not physically possible. Not to be coarse, but his equipment would be bigger than the hapless human female. Sooo...... Maybe the original magical process involved a teleport spell to get the human wigglers to the Giant's egg.
And I always thought it was kind of funny that they are called Half-Giants. They're really about 1/10th the height of a giant.:D
And I always thought it was kind of funny that they are called Half-Giants. They're really about 1/10th the height of a giant.:D
Hunh?
Half-Giants are 10-12 feet tall and Giant (on Athas) are around 20-30 feet tall. Seems pretty half to me.
I really think magic would be required. Athasian giants are IMMENSE,able to crush like ten or so dwarves under their feet (like in the Prism Pentad) and humans are, well, human. If the mother was the Giant, the Human would basically have to crawl inside of her and try to find the ovum, and hand fertilize it. eeeewwww.
If the father was the giant, well, it's just not physically possible. Not to be coarse, but his equipment would be bigger than the hapless human female. Sooo......
What you describe fits under my general hypothesis above that maybe humans and giants could reproduce under specific circumstances. The largest great Dane is technically interfertile with the tiniest chihuahua, and that's pretty analogous size-wise to the giant-human matchup. They are biologically interfertile, but you don't see a lot of great dane/chihuahua mixes running around, because it's not a very practical match. One might say that great danes and chihuahuas cannot mate, and the statement is either true or false depending on whether we're talking about the normal mating act or something more artificial.
Maybe the original magical process involved a teleport spell to get the human wigglers to the Giant's egg.
The less knowledge of biology that we have to project onto the creation process, the better, IMO. There are lots of possibilities of how to use magic or psionics to artificially allow mating. A more simple and obvious approach than what you describe would be to use some supernatural means of increasing the size of the human partner, while reducing the size of the giant partner.
Other possibilities:
What would happen if you polymorphed a pregnant human being into a giant?
What if the Pristine Tower mutations were involved?
What if Half-giants are descended from an extinct variety of giant or giant-like creature (say an ogre) that was interfertile with humans?
Finally, using a wish to allow two muls to produce a fertile offspring, isn't necessarily ruled out by the epic rules -- sterile half-races is IMO a grey area that the writers probably did not contemplate. Creating a whole "race" in that way would probably require many wishes (otherwise the new group would probably inbreed itself out of existence). And if the original half-giants were sterile like muls, and if wishes were used to allow them fertile offspring, then inbreeding would help to explain some aspects of the half-giant that aren't particularly giantish or human.
Hunh?
Half-Giants are 10-12 feet tall and Giant (on Athas) are around 20-30 feet tall. Seems pretty half to me.
Could be that he's referencing the Paizo DS 3.5 version where half-giants are medium sized creatures only somewhat bigger than humans. I won't try to explain those critters. :D There are things about the Paizo version that I like, but I much prefer our half-giants.
Theres some very powerful level 9 spells out there which would do more impressive effects than this (Stasis Clone, Apocalypse From the Sky etc).
Apocalypse From the Sky is a nasty nasty spell. And the requirements for it and the damage it does to the caster makes it a cast once then I'm dead sort of spell. It does 10d6 damage of either fire, acid or sonic, your choice. The Caster takes the damage too. It's radius is 10 miles/level of the caster (9th level spell means minimum of 170 mile radius.) You need to destroy an artifact and you take 3d6 Constitution damage and 4d6 Wisdom Drain, as well as 1d3 Wisdom damage to even memorize the spell, and another 1d3 Wisdom damage each day it stays in your head.
Yeah, its a great spell... but can anyone really cast it?
That said, the CO Boards found some ways to make it easier...
Read at your own risk. It may hurt.
If a wish can bring someone back to life I'm sure you could crosbreed 2 species with it and its quite simple to make a giant small or a human larger and use a wish spell to make them fertile. If wish could do it and it seems reasonable based on the power level it would be reasonable to create a level 9 spell that could do it without spending 5000xp a shot.
Creating a living, breathing half giant out of thin air is epic and would require a divine caster or powerful Psion. Crossbreeding creatures isn't that hard in D&D where you can use magic if the 2 species involved are incompatable..
If a wish can bring someone back to life I'm sure you could crosbreed 2 species with it and its quite simple to make a giant small or a human larger and use a wish spell to make them fertile. If wish could do it and it seems reasonable based on the power level it would be reasonable to create a level 9 spell that could do it without spending 5000xp a shot.
There's some confusion here on what 9th-level and epic spells can and cannot do. I suggest you read (or re-read) the introduction on the epic spells chapter in the ELH.
I mentioned Apocalypse From the Sky as it would be very difficult to cast an epic spell with a 10 mile radius/per level of the caster using the existing epic rules. Even the 2nd ed book Spells and Magic managed to design level 10 spells better than the abortion that is epic spellcasting which is either broken as hell or useless depending on your DM.
Second ed actually had a better high level (20+) magic system IMHO- see Dragon Kings and Netheril Empire of Magic boxed sets in addition to Spells and Magic players option.
I tjhink they tryed to create an open ended system instead of concentrating on level 20-40 which they should have done methinks. I've never heard of a campaign run at level 40+ and I think any groups actually that high are an extreme minority. Even in Forgotten Realms the highest level NPC is level 45 IIRC and most of the epic baddies are in the late 20's/early 30's level wise.
There are lotsa perfectly good non epic spells that could do alot of this and one of the many issue I have with the ELH was the lets make it epic mindset alot of people seem to have succumbed to. Dregoth as level 60 odd for example or Dicefreaks with lets make the archfiends CR 50-60+
There's some confusion here on what 9th-level and epic spells can and cannot do. I suggest you read (or re-read) the introduction on the epic spells chapter in the ELH.
What part of the ELH says that you can't use a Wish spell to get a mul pregnant, or use a wish in conjunction with an enlarge spell and a philtre of love to go make yourself a litter of Quarter-Giants? ;)