Greyhawk Geography

Post/Author/DateTimePost
#1

extempus

Oct 09, 2007 16:03:36
As we continued our campaign last night, I was checking the coordinates for Greyhawk in The Adventure Begins (36º 15' N, 17º 20' W, p. 12; in my campaign, however, we use Greyhawk and not Rauxes as the Prime Meridian, and so time is calculated according to Greyhawk Mean Time, or GMT), and it suddenly occurred to me: the Northern Border of Day and Night (equivalent to our Arctic Circle) lies at 60º north latitude (p. 10; on Earth, it's at 66º 30' N), which therefore means that Oerth's axial inclination is 30º compared to Earth's 23.5º, and the Oerth equivalent of the Tropic of Cancer lies at 30º north latitude (23º 30' here on Earth)!

While this might evoke a "So what"? response, this is actually quite important: everything south of the Tropic should have a tropical climate, and those areas immediately north are subtropical. In other words, if Greyhawk is 36º 15' N, it is only 6º 15' north of the tropics on Oerth; the same location on Earth would be 12º 45' north of the Tropic of Cancer. Thus, it must be quite hot and humid most of the year.

I hope everyone sees where I am going with this: based on the earlier maps (from The World of Greyhawk and From the Ashes), the tropic is assumed to be much farther south than it actually is! We can see that there is obvious jungle in Hepmonaland, the Lordship of the Isles, the Tilvanot Peninsula, the Olman Islands and, of course, the appropriately named Amedio Jungle. Monmurg in the Hold of the Sea Princes is just a few miles south of the assumed tropic, but since The Adventure Begins officially tells us (albeit in a roundabout way) that it's actually 30º and not 23.5º N latitude, that means that Elredd, Gorna, Highport, Jalpa, Niole Dra, Ountsy, Prymp, Rel Astra and Rel Deven all lie within 50 miles north or south of the tropic and therefore have tropical and not temperate climates! I calculated that 38% of the map is therefore actually tropical and must be hot and humid most of the time (considering there is a 6 month long summer!), but subtropical areas, such as Greyhawk, can get quite cold in winter (I used to live in the subtropical Far North Coast of New South Wales in Australia, and it got so cold on occasion that we once had snow flurries!).

So... this should put things in an entirely different light, but shouldn't necessarily make much of a difference (it won't in my campaign). The climate of quite a large proportion of the Flanaess is not like northern Europe or whatever, it's more like Yucatan, India and Southeast Asia.
#2

theocratissak

Oct 09, 2007 16:18:09
Hi all -
Being that in early 1999 - 2001 I was heavily invoved in a personal pet project regarding Weather, I know what things you are going through. I used the original map to map out the exact locations of each city (longitute and latitude), and luckily Holian's infomration in Oerth Journal 3 or 4 was a massive help. The biggest thing that I think you are missing - and I could be wrong since I do not have my notes here at the office (I have a 4" D binder [it's frickin' huge] for my "eventual article in the OJ "Weathering the Flanaess") I'm going on faulty memory - is that each hex on the map is 33 miles and every hex going Northwards increases in size in actuality. I wanna say that the northern most hexes are say 43 miles instead of the 33. And then of course somewhere south the hexes are either smaller or stay the same (again, I don't have my notes and I suffer from CRS).
So as I'm want to...I'm posting here with limited knowledge, but I can always go home pull that binder from its self and point out flaws.
The original intent of the article was to provide baseline sunrise and sunset times for each city (on the darlene map). It was about that time that the LGG map came out and screwed everything up (more cities). Hmm, I think this might be an excellent collaboration project and something that I could sink my teeth into.
I'd recommed looking at Holian's article on the flanaess as well as Roger Moore's article. Check out OerthJournal.com for issues 2-4 of the OJ for informaition. I recall also reviewing the Manual of the Planes (3e), SpellJammer for Greyhawk, and a couple other sources for information. Again, I can always post parts of my work later.
Be Well. Be Weathered Well.
Theocrat Issak
#3

phantasm72

Oct 10, 2007 5:49:12
It could also be pointed out that it says in the greyhawk boxed set that the weather is assumed to be controlled by magic, which of course would over ride what is considered 'natural'
#4

zombiegleemax

Oct 10, 2007 10:39:33
It could also be pointed out that it says in the greyhawk boxed set that the weather is assumed to be controlled by magic, which of course would over ride what is considered 'natural'

Yes, and that is always the easy answer, instead of trying to figure out a more natural aspect of the world. We have geologist in our mits that helps in understandign rock formations and making sure we don't put a forest and a desert bording each other. We make sure that the right kind of forest is in the right place - because we want a fantastical world with Orcs, Dragons, and Will-O-Wisps yet for them to fit their ecological niche.
In so making these ecological niche's we can also determine the weather, and the correct longitude and latitude of cities as designed on the maps. With Oerth at the center of the Universe, it would be no wonder that magic "helped" the weather, just as magic or someother unknown force keeps the inhabitants of the Flannaess uninterested in the rest of the world. But that doesn't mean that we puny Earthlings shouldn't attempt to understand the non-magical applications.

I was busy packing up my D&D books for this weekends NeonCon in Vegas, BABY! and saw my weather sourcebook, but didn't pull it off the shelf...hopefully tonight I'll remember.
Be Well. Be Well Packed.
Theocrat Issak
#5

extempus

Oct 10, 2007 16:22:10
It could also be pointed out that it says in the greyhawk boxed set that the weather is assumed to be controlled by magic, which of course would over ride what is considered 'natural'

Actually, on p. 18 of the Glossography, it says:
One final comment is necessary. The weather of Oerth is affected (and possibly generated) by magic.

One thing is for certain: while Oerth is highly magical, it is also highly natural in many respects. Even at 23rd level, my wizard cannot possibly hope to control weather over more than a minuscule area, nor can my 24th level priest for that matter. Perhaps some gods can, but when we come down to it, Oerth's axial inclination (or if you prefer the official position that Oerth is at the center of the system), we still have the Northern Border of Day and Night (aka the Arctic Circle) at 60º north latitude, which therefore means the tropic is at 30º, which therefore means that the southern two fifths of the map is actually tropical and the climate is radically different from what everyone has believed for so many decades.

Ultimately, it makes little difference, except that summer is hotter and far more humid farther north than has been generally accepted; like I said previously, the climate in Greyhawk is not much different than Yucatan, India and/or Southeast Asia.

One tidbit from my campaign is that Oerth's axial tilt was but 5º at the time of the Twin Cataclysms, but somehow, it increased by 25º (though no one knows how or why as of yet). That means that Oerth was actually tropical from pole to pole until the last thousand years.
#6

Halberkill

Oct 12, 2007 23:02:40
Few things.

In Maine, there is a sand desert right next to a pine forest.

Black ice can occour naturally if the temperature drops fast enough and it is fresh water. This sometimes happens in Minnesota lakes.

Places that are closer to the center of a continent tend to be less humid.

Two places at the same lattitude can have very different weather, Fargo is known for it's harsh winters caused by cold winds from the north, yet Seattle at the same lattitude has milder weather caused by warm ocean currents from the south.

Gygax purposefully made Oerth with a longer summer to extend the campaigning season of armies for wargaming purposes. If you notice, there is a high summer and a low summer in one of the books, as if there were 5 seasons on Oerth.

Halber

Halber
#7

extempus

Oct 13, 2007 1:33:30
Of course, there are oddities, but things like the Arctic Circle and the Tropics of Cancer and Capricorn here on Earth are essentially invariable, and the equivalents on Oerth should be as well. Thus, 38% of the map is technically tropical since it falls between the equator and the tropic. Things like the Bright Desert were probably an "oops," since there shouldn't be one there, but in Rary the Traitor, we found out it actually resulted from the cursed Scorpion Crown.

Also, don't the ocean currents near Seattle actually flow from the north? That's why the water is so damn cold here in the Bay Area...

I've also been thinking a lot about the 6 month summer: the official take on Greyspace is that it is geocentric, but in my campaign, it's heliocentric, with Oerth being the 3rd planet out (the reason is that a geocentric model does not work in real life, and Oerth is far too similar to Earth to be geocentric IMHO).

That being said, Oerth's orbit around Liga must be highly elliptical, with midsummer's eve occurring at aphelion, since Oerth is farthest from the sun and moving slower in its orbit, thus accounting for the lengthy summer. Therefore, midwinter occurs at perihelion, since Oerth is closer to Liga and moving faster, thus accounting for the 2 month winter.

Regardless, with so much of the Flanaess actually being tropical and subtropical, a 2 month winter does not really affect things much. It no doubt gets nippy in Greyhawk and might even snow once in a great while, but much of the Sheldomar Valley will be quite warm even in midwinter since places like Keoland are in the tropics. So, having a lengthy summer doesn't really make much difference, since winter won't be that noticeable in the southern Flanaess...
#8

maldin

Oct 15, 2007 10:52:27
Before people get too crazy claiming climate and seasonality as some form of evidence for either geocentrism or heliocentrism, let me clear up one almost universal misconception... Relative motion in a 2 body system has absolutely no detectable difference in effect (climatic, astronomical observations, planetary or orbital inclination, day or year length, etc.) whether you choose to use heliocentrism or geocentrism as your personal Greyhawk. In fact, it is impossible to tell the difference! Only when you have a 3rd reference point (that is, another planet or moon) does it make any difference whatsoever (that is, do the other planets orbit Oerth or Liga), and those other bodies, whether they orbit around Oerth or Liga, have absolutely no effect on Oerth's climate. Only the closest orbiting moons will have an effect on tides, and I don't think anyone here will want to argue that Oerth's moons orbit Liga.

Now that we have that straightened out, carry on with the regularly scheduled (and recurring) climatic arguments.

Denis, aka "Maldin", and professional geoscientist
====================================
Maldin's Greyhawk http://melkot.com
Maps, Magic, Mechanics, and Mysteries.
And your City of Greyhawk center.
#9

crag

Oct 15, 2007 15:42:00
I am no expert but wouldn't the large glacial Land of Black Ice cause some weather effects?
#10

extempus

Oct 16, 2007 1:40:14
Very good points, Maldin, but my main argument was concerning the apparent belief that the climate in the Flanaess is more temperate, when in fact it is mostly tropical, based on the fact that the Northern Border of Day and Night is at 60º. It shouldn't make much of a difference to an ongoing campaign, and I'm sure most don't care anyway! lol

There are some other things that occurred to me during our current adventure. We know that Woolly Bay is quite busy with merchants, slavers, the Pirates of the Yellow Veil, the Hardby Marines, etc, but considering the axial tilt of Oerth is 30º, that means that winter, even though it is but two months long, must be more severe than here on Earth, meaning that the rivers in the northern Flanaess freeze every year, which therefore means that much trade is restricted to the summer and fall, since the ships can't get out of port in winter! Thus, Woolly Bay really doesn't see much action until after Growfest, and most merchants have returned home by Ready'reat (those in the more tropical and sub-tropical climates would obviously not be affected).

As far as the geocentric versus the heliocentric models go for Greyspace: If Oerth is at the center and everything else orbits it, then we have both Liga, Luna and Celene all moving relative to each other. Using Celene as an example, we run into a major problem...

Celene is full only 4 times a year, once every 91 days. Liga orbits Oerth once in 364 days (Greyspace, p. 23). In a geocentric model, this means that Celene orbits Oerth 4 times in the space that Liga orbits once. In order for a moon to appear full, the moon and the sun must be on opposite sides of the planet, ie 180º apart. Now, for every 360º orbit of Celene about Oerth, Liga moves only 90º. This is vitally important: the source of reflected light from Celene is also moving, albeit at one quarter the speed, such that if we assume that Liga and Celene are in the appropriate positions for Celene to appear full on Needfest 4th, then 3 months later on Growfest 4th, Liga will be 90º away and Celene will be only half full. Three months later on Richfest 4th, Liga and Celene will be on the same side of Oerth, so Celene will be new, and 3 months after that on Brewfest 4th, it will be half full once again. But, we know that Celene is actually full and not any other phase on those dates...

In order for Celene to appear full again, it will have to be 180º away from Liga once again, but since both source and target are moving (and I don't particularly feel like making precise calculations, since it makes little difference and I doubt anyone really cares anyway, lol), I guesstimate that it would take roughly 120 days, which means that Celene should appear full only 3 times a year and not 4, and since Celene is full 4 times a year and not 3, Greyspace must be heliocentric and not geocentric...

And that's why Greyspace is heliocentric in my campaign, FWIW...
#11

myrpg

Oct 21, 2007 14:13:08
Well, you can always use the Weather Forecaster for Flanaess from

here

Based on the old Boxed set of Greyhawk