* * * Wizards Community Thread * * * -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Thread : Hanging up my DM cap. (long post) Started at 10-13-03 06:24 PM by grumpy DM Visit at http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=114686 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 1] Author : grumpy DM Date : 10-13-03 06:24 PM Thread Title : Hanging up my DM cap. (long post) I'll start by saying i'm posting this in the Out of Print board, because I suppose that is what I am. An old gamer who has lost his joy of the game, and who likes and respects those who post here. I don't post much, but I lurk often. So here goes. Lets look back three years ago........It was one of those wonderful boring days at work when all the managers are out and I could goof off as much as I liked. I was bored and for some reason thought about the D&D game I used to play in Jr. High and High School (I'm 33 now). I jump on the internet and find the Wizards website (what!!! TSR doesn't exist anymore?), look around a little bit and felt the nostalgia. I remembered the sense of wonder, fear, and excitement as a player. I remembered the evil glee as a DM when you KNOW the foul beastie waiting on the other side of the door is ready for its lunch of Krispie Characters. Driving home that night I stopped by the local game store I went to back in the 80's. Lo and behold it still existed and seems to be doing a rather thriving business. I pick up the 25th anniversary edition package with all the old stuff in it. How do you describe in words the feeling you get looking once more after 20 years at the cover of Keep on the Borderlands, the feel of a d20, even the smell of a new module. It was great. Over the next few months I find out that 3e is coming and I buy the 3 core books. I have the bug to play bad now, but who plays this game anymore? The wizards site helps me find a group of players and I get a game together for a once a week session. We have 5 guys ( including a good friend that I didn't know even played) and myself as DM. The adventures are a blast. We play the new Sunless Citadel and then run the group through Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil. This is where the first cracks start to appear in my armor of fun. I notice the focus of the game has changed, or is it the players? I see no longer the sense of wonder, the excitement, or anything other than building the ultimate whatever from the splat book of the month. I try to spice things up and do something different by converting the old standards to 3e and running my players through them. You should have seen the looks of confusion on their faces when they first entered the Castle Amber. Keep on the Borderlands was one of their favorites, and the Saltmarsh series keeps everyone happy for months. The current series was the G1-G3 with eventually D1-3 and a finale in Q1. but about halfway through G2 it became a chore to play. Too many options for the characters. The game is no fun when it takes the 10th level druid 20 minutes to do his turn, or any action by a player revolves around 10 minutes of library time to find the rule that applies. I tried to just rule 0 as much as possible, but that always led to conflict. Needless to say I have become dissillusioned. I'm hanging up my DM Screen and will not likely dust it off again. Sincerely, GrumpyDM -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 2] Author : Solaris Date : 10-13-03 09:54 PM Don't quit -- just go back to an older edition! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 3] Author : Bolt Thrower Date : 10-13-03 10:12 PM Everyone goes through these periods where they feel that there is no point playing the game anymore. I feel that since the release of 3rd Edition, the feeling has become stronger in alot of people who played the previous editions. In my opinion (and i mean MY OPINION) 3rd edition doesn't have the same feel as the older editions. Don't worry about 3rd ed ruining your fun, just go back to old but golds. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 4] Author : Zyphus Date : 10-13-03 11:04 PM You should have seen the looks of confusion on their faces when they first entered the Castle Amber. Keep on the Borderlands was one of their favorites, and the Saltmarsh series keeps everyone happy for months. The current series was the G1-G3 with eventually D1-3 and a finale in Q1. but about halfway through G2 it became a chore to play. Too many options for the characters. The game is no fun when it takes the 10th level druid 20 minutes to do his turn, or any action by a player revolves around 10 minutes of library time to find the rule that applies. I tried to just rule 0 as much as possible, but that always led to conflict. Needless to say I have become dissillusioned. I'm hanging up my DM Screen and will not likely dust it off again. Castle Amber? Isn't that the one where the player's can gain unusual powers that they often forget about? Back when you first played, how long would it take for you to decide what any 10th level spellcaster would do? While changing editions re-invokes the learning curve, it is still shorter if you have played some version of the game before. Rule 0 rules! When I get annoyed at a player taking too long I just count down from 6. Each round is only 6 seconds now anyway, so giving a player that long to think makes sense. A nice DM could even give 10. The DM has to know the entire world, the least a player can do is know what his character can do. If they cannot declare an action, they are deep in thought for the round. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 5] Author : Algolei Date : 10-14-03 06:12 AM What Bolt Thrower said! Also, there are plenty of ways to spruce up the game. Try something different, even if it's only as a break from what seems like drudgework right now. Play with the rules you prefer, not the newest ones. Give up the DM's chair to someone else and play a bit yourself. Start a new campaign and just goof around at lower levels for a while. Kill off all the PCs and break out the wine and cheese for the rest of the night.* Switch to a different game system. Sometimes something more permanent needs to be done. Generally I try to stay away from doing these, myself. Change playing groups. Dump the players that slow the game the most. Bring in a brand new DM--perhaps an Iron DM (a no-nonsense, take-charge kinda person). Kill off all the PCs and break out a keg of beer.* Rewrite the rulebooks so they all make sense to you and your players. I'm almost 39, myself. One time I gave up D&D "forever," although it really only lasted about a year or so. There have been several times when I just took a break for, about the same length of time. Don't sweat it. That's my advise. *But don't drink and drive. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 6] Author : Mr. VanderMeer Date : 10-14-03 08:41 AM Hi Grumpy, I can understand what you mean. I think your dissatisfaction comes mainly from the group you are playing with than from the rules. I am 29 myself and I have played many, many game systems. I find that the game system is not as important. The excitement, the wonder etc. comes from the players. I also play 3e now (or actually 3.5 already) and the system doesn't seem all that cumbersome to me. I have played AD&D and AD&D2e and I know what is important, so I am able to ignore or shorten rules I find superfluous. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 7] Author : The MadStepDad Date : 10-14-03 11:09 AM OH NOOOOO! Grumy come back! Don't let the passion die! It may have fizzled out a bit (hey, happens to the best of us), but the spark will return! IT WILL RETURN! I'm playing a 3E Ravenloft campaign right now. C'mon down and check it out, maybe it will rekindle the flames. I think 3E is the BEST thing to come around for the exact reasons you think it's NOT good. Too many options? Only if you abuse them. The freedom in 3E is great, but I can see how it can be a bad thing too. Kinda like going to college right after High school, right? So much freedom and if you abuse it you're only hurting yourself. Come check my campaign! http://boards1.wizards.com/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=293 peace, MSD -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 8] Author : grumpy DM Date : 10-14-03 12:28 PM Thread Title : Hangin up the Hat Wow, I wasn't expecting any responses. Thank you to all who posted. I have taken some of the advice to heart and perhaps this will only be a breif (several month) break to recharge. I am one of those rare folks who really doesn't care to play nearly as much as I like to make a fun campaign for the rest of the players. It may be time to look for some new blood as far as players go. We had far too much drama in the group. Zyphus: Castle Amber is the one where the party enters a mist (I know raveloft stole that idea, and had the party on the watch for vampires :) They explore a mansion with crazy family members in it. Long story short, it makes a great module with a little DM imagination, who doesn't want to play a game in a mad house with a dark secret? When I first played, we all moved at a fairly fast pace since we wanted to get as much gaming in as possible. The group has 3 guys in it who will debate their move for 10 minutes to get the best possible effect, but of course will not START to think about their move until thieir turn. Bolt Thrower, Solaris, Mr. VanderMeer: Thanks for the suggestions. I toyed with the idea of Hackmaster, but after a significant investment in 3.5 I'll stick with it if I play again. Algolei: I Will try to start a new group one day maybe with 2 or 3 of the current players that don't annoy me. Oh, and I have killed my share of PC's. I NEVER fudge a die roll and always allow stupidity to take it's full course. MadStepDad: Very cool rundown of the campaign. Thanks all, GrumpyDM -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 9] Author : WSmith Date : 10-14-03 12:35 PM EDIT: It appears Grumpy posted while I was posting, so some of my statements seems obsolete when reading the post chronologically. Grumpy I am glad you are just taking a break, to try later. If you do decide to try older versions, they can be had for cheap on the web. Good Luck. Grumpy, I would ask that you reconsider before putting away your D&D stuff. I am 33, probably much like you. To make a long story short, I played 3e for a couple of years when it came out, but found out it was not for me. Just when I was about to retire, I was cleaning up my closet and "re-discovered" the Moldvay edited, Erol Otus Cover Basic D&D rulebook. I was so amazed that a 64 page rulebook could stir my imagination more than the current version chauking in at several hundred pages. No matter what anyone says, the different versions have a different feel. Find the one that matches most with your style and have fun. There are still many holdouts (like myself ;) ) that still play older versions. See my sig for the link to Dragonsfoot. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 10] Author : Dogbreath Date : 10-14-03 06:23 PM Dogbreath here. I agree with all the great posts above, don't hang it up. Do what I did. I got disgusted WAY back there, even at the second editons material!---pathetic i know, but there's something about all of these books and junk stacking up that ruined the game IF YOU ASK ME. I know that works for some folks, and more power to em, really, but basic is best for me. Only weeks ago I decided to score the only 3 books I'm using: the Monster Manual, the DM's Guide, and the Players Handbook---I don't even want the Fiend Folio, OR Dieties and Demigods! Half the fun is making your own monsters, and MM has all the classics, and I can build my own from scratch. On the Dieties manual, I never really cared to bring all that into the game. It's like psionics: people tend to abuse the living daylights outta the power of that stuff. When I DM I allow psionics of course, but like magic I prefer a world where that is rare and practiced, not just someone with a billion spells and powers. Anyhow, I know this doesn't mean much coming from someone as stripped down as the first version, BUT I think switching to a basic setup is the way to go. And I agree with one of the above posts too: do some playing as well, don't get cornered into DM'ing all the time. If you wanna play some stripped down D&D with me onlline, stay tuned, several of us might try it! DB :behold: -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 11] Author : Unknowable Date : 10-15-03 02:40 AM Hello Grumpy DM, I know what you are you going through because I have been there myself but I say don't throw in the towel. I say start DMing again as soon as possible. I have a couple of suggestions that you might try. I started when I was 15 and I am 30 now and have come across every kind of player out there. I have developed a list of house/table rules and what not that I believe helps everyone to get the most of the gaming experience. Some other posters already mention a couple of them but anyway here they are. * Rule 0. DM's fiat. You're in charge. Dont forget that. * Core or Door. I don't allow splat books or any other book other than the core rule books. I didn't in 1e or 2e and I don't in 3e. If someone doesn't like that or agree with it, I will show them to the door. I will allow splat books only after a player has fully demonstrated they can play a standard character good. And of course, if i own the book myself. * If you allow any Prestige Classes, don't tell the players which ones you are going to use. Make them learn that through discovering the world. Also considering making up your own PrC that are tailor made to your world. Both ways encourages the players to try to learn and discover your world more. * All characters always start out at level 1, regardless. * Use Point buy for PC generation. Use 25 points or less. If characters skimp on charisma, have the PCs suffer accordingly for it during play. * Award XP for role playing. Deduct XP for a lack of RP involvement. * Design adventures that are impossible to make it through if the players rely soley on hack & slash. * Never run published adventures as they are. There are three reasons for this. The first being that any player can go out and buy the adventure that you might be running, thus ruining the element of suprise. The other reason is that most published adventures are way too generic and dont tie the character right into your world (unless its for a published world that you are using.) Instead, if you are going to use published adventures, borrow bits and peices from them and construct your own adventure that is tailor made to your world. The third reason for this is a published adventure, no matter how interested or well thought out, never is as interesting to you as one you design your self. If you think a published adventure is the greatest thing in the world, read over and then customize it to your world anyway. * A player has six seconds to decide an action in combat and that is it. No exception. The PC can delay but if they say nothing, then the character does nothing and they lose thier turn. If the PC is a spell caster, the player had better know thier spell list because they will not get extra time to decide which spell to use. If a player doesn't know the effects of the spell, then you decide the effects or don't allow it. They just lose thier turn. * No rules discussion is allowed during the game. If there is a disagreement about rules, you make an the spot decision, have someone make a note of the disagreement, and then after the game has concluded for the night, then everyone looks it up and discusses. You make a note of it, and at the beginning of the next session, remind everyone of the correct rule. * No players are allowed any books at the table other than the PHB and any player's guide to you have created for your world. No splat books, no DMGs, no MMs. At the gaming table, All these books are for you and you alone. * Change up some of the monsters a little to throw metagamers off balance. A troll becomes immune to fire but now suffers from cold damage. Kobolds get caste magic missle at will. Suddenly your world gets a lot more interesting and a lot more deadly. I hope these suggestions help you out. Unknowable -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 12] Author : grumpy DM Date : 10-15-03 03:48 AM Thanks Unknowable, Those are good suggestions that I will definately put into place when I play again. I believe that being a DM is growing process. I have much to learn (even after 20 years of playing). It's too bad DM's don't get a chance to get together and discuss as much as the players do. Many of the points you bring up are the things that have ruined my campaign. For example: Core or Door: I allowed the Wizards supplements (tome and blood, etc...) and they really unbalanced the game. I think that it is profitable for Wizards to produce these, but I wish they would do some great modules instead. I mean really, how many Prc's do we need? I had a Druid that kept a MM nearby....big mistake, custom monster for each situation. I have toyed with the idea of summoning only what you know and have encountered. Prc's: Interesting concept, but lower level characters no longer enjoy the game. They see low levels as a penalty and can't wait to become the Uber mage of doom. If I allow in the future. It will be a home brew blend like you suggest. Always start out at level one: I agree. A custom built 7th level character is nearly always stronger than a naturally occuring one. Point buy: I don't really like it, I prefer 4d6 drop the lowest die, place em where you want. Sometimes you get a great stat character, sometimes you stink. It's funny how the characters with low stats are the ones that survive the longest. XP for RP: Roleplaying always gets you a reward with me. For some reason my group hated that. They felt every character should be equal. Adventures: I always alter the adventure to fit the world and campaign I'm in. For example the last series I was running started with Castle Amber. I placed it in the Kalamar setting. In the module they are essentially shifted to another plane. They trade magic items with an old woman at one point before they solve the mystery and make it back to their time. Long story short, the old woman was actually Lloth and they gave her the magic item that allowed her to force her way into their plane. They wouldn't have realized this until they finished G1-G3, D1-D3 and finally figure it out in Q1. Whew...never made it past G2. Time limits: I will institute a time limit on characters to make a decision. Maybe I should get one of those chess timers and give them 10 seconds or so to decide what to do. This is one of my biggest pet peeves. they really have a long time to decide, while the other 4 players were taking their turn. No rules discussion: I agree, something you have to lay down as law at the beginning. I didn't and have paid the price. Other mistakes I made: 1. Allowing the players too much freedom. I mistakenly equated letting them develop their character into letting them MinMax their character. Monstrous characters will destroy a campaign unless it is specifically set up for that. 2. I will never allow someone to play a character that they do not have a backgroud story for. If you can't put this minimal effort in, you should stick to video games. It was so frustrating to spend 4 hours preparing for a nights game and the players couldn't even remember to do a background. 3. I did too much bookkeeping for the players. I remembered their magic items, treasure, etc. They would Never identify anything. If I DM again I will not have magic weapons or items function UNTIL they have been identified. I even went to the expense of buying the group a nice leather bound journal to keep notes in. That lasted about 1 session and they all cried about having to write in it. 4. I need to learn the right balance for magic in the world. How much (I'm thinking very little) and how is it bought and sold? 5. I need to put a stop to the players "coaching" each other during their turns. Thats all I can think of at midnight. Gee I'll get a whole 5 hours of sleep before work tomorrow. GrumpyDM -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 13] Author : Algolei Date : 10-15-03 05:12 AM Originally posted by grumpy DM Gee I'll get a whole 5 hours of sleep before work tomorrow. GrumpyDM Hahaha! I know the feeling! Good thing you mentioned it, I need to hit the sack too. :zzz: -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 14] Author : Mr. VanderMeer Date : 10-15-03 05:25 AM Hi Again, I thoroughly agree with your points 1, 2 and 3. They illustrate my point that your desillussion is due to the players, more than the game system. So sticking with v3.5 seems like a good choice. You just need your players to shape up, or get new ones. Point 4 is about personal taste, but too much magic does tend to make things difficult. Point 5 I personally do not have that much of a problem with if it happens only sporadically. (But I am lucky to have players who do not take each others advice anyway.) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 15] Author : The MadStepDad Date : 10-15-03 11:22 AM Originally posted by Mr. VanderMeer your desillussion is due to the players, more than the game system. So sticking with v3.5 seems like a good choice. You just need your players to shape up, or get new ones. You mean MAKE new ones. That's the recipe for success. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 16] Author : Mr. VanderMeer Date : 10-15-03 11:36 AM You mean MAKE new ones. That's the recipe for success. You mean make children and train them to become good RP'ers? But it will take years before they can play! It might be worth it though. Oh no, now I see... you are the Mad StepDad! You adopt them, or marry a woman who already has some kids -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 17] Author : Unknowable Date : 10-15-03 07:18 PM I think that it is profitable for Wizards to produce these, but I wish they would do some great modules instead. I mean really, how many Prc's do we need? Well prestige classes can be really cool but my players have to earn them through RP as much through having the prerequisites. I mean you can't just up and become an assassin overnight. You have to be trained and getting into the assassin's guild is harder than just knocking on the front door and saying, "Hey I want to be an assassin. I had a Druid that kept a MM nearby....big mistake, custom monster for each situation. I have toyed with the idea of summoning only what you know and have encountered. I treat summoning in this way. A character can't just summon a monster up and out of the blue at a whim. They have to research the specific monster to be summoned ahead of time. and it's always the same monster that answers the summons. The DM designs the monster, not the player. Sometimes, depending upon the personality of the specific monster, an agreement might have to be worked out for their services. Also, there is a 5% chance that someone else is using the same monster when ever the player attempts to summon it. For example, if the character wishes to summon a formian warrior, they have to research and find the name of a formian. After they have done that, they attempt to summon it. If the formian answers the call, he might require a small payment or else might retaliate after the summons has ended. Instead of a payment, he might agree so long as he always fights for a lawful cause or something. It is always the same formian that answers the summons. The player might try to summon it but if they you roll 95-00 on a d%, the formian is currently answering a summons by someone else. In 1d6x10 minutes, the formian will be available if he hasn't been killed. when this happens, there is a 25% chance he was killed. If that happens, the player has to research and find another formian. Prc's: Interesting concept, but lower level characters no longer enjoy the game. They see low levels as a penalty and can't wait to become the Uber mage of doom. That partly depends on what you do with lower levels. I do my best to make lower levels every bit as entertaining as higher levels. Also, Once the character reaches higher levels, make things incredibly difficult. I have a higher mortality rate among PrC than standard classes because the guild that the PCs get the PrC from sends them on incredibly hard missions. Most players want a PrC because they think that will make things a walk in the park and if that is how it turns out, that is just a result of bad DMing. I treat PrC like the Rangers in the US Army, that lable, 'Ranger,' doesn't make you bullet proof and there is a long list of guys waiting to take your place. The reason why you are trained to be a Ranger is to do the impossible, not so that you can do what everyone else does and get paid more for it. Always start out at level one: I agree. A custom built 7th level character is nearly always stronger than a naturally occuring one. Well, not always. that depends on the DM and the Players. But a naturally occurring one is always more interesting. Point buy: I don't really like it, I prefer 4d6 drop the lowest die, place em where you want. Sometimes you get a great stat character, sometimes you stink. It's funny how the characters with low stats are the ones that survive the longest. I think player's with low statted PC's are generally more cautious with thier PCs than super strong PCs. It kind of depends on the game world and the DM too. I tend to run pretty vicious campaigns so PCs need every advantage they can get. The reason I favor point buy is I have been in one too many groups where two players played the same kind of character and, just through random dice rolls, one get's a totally killer character, while the other gets one that just stinks. Those kind of situations are especially aggrivating for new players just learning the game. Point buy keeps it even and fair. I don't just point buy though. I make the minimum 8 and the maximum 15, and give out 22 points. Te reasoning behind this is that people with abnormally low ability scores rarely survive to adulthood and those that do most certainly never become adventurers. Superhigh ability scores usually result from modern methods of education and science. For example, Arnold Swartzenegger, when he was Mr. universe, had a strength score of 18 but he got there through highly scientific methods of weight training that just did not exist in most medieval worlds. Of course, there were people like Mozart or Beethoven that had abnormally high intelligence scores but Mozart could be said to have had a pathologically low Wisdom and Beethoven likewise had a pathetically low Charisma score. Neither one would have gotten far as an adventurer, and they weren't adventurers. Adventures: I always alter the adventure to fit the world and campaign I'm in. For example the last series I was running started with Castle Amber. I placed it in the Kalamar setting. In the module they are essentially shifted to another plane. They trade magic items with an old woman at one point before they solve the mystery and make it back to their time. Long story short, the old woman was actually Lloth and they gave her the magic item that allowed her to force her way into their plane. They wouldn't have realized this until they finished G1-G3, D1-D3 and finally figure it out in Q1. Whew...never made it past G2. Make that four reasons never to use published adventures, reason number 4 being that most published adventures are way to contrived. I don't really remember Castle Amber but I do know that Lloth isn't going to make a bargain or anything like that with a low level mortal. She will just kill them and take what she wants. Too many published adventures are that way. Not trying insult your tastes or anything like that, I don't remember all of the specific adventures mentioned, but I do remember that a lot of the older ones often followed fairy-tale logic (that being things happen just because.) Alot of the newer ones do too. As a rule, I rarely play adventures out for more than five levels, never more than 7, and I never involve Deities directly until very very high levels. Time limits: I will institute a time limit on characters to make a decision. Maybe I should get one of those chess timers and give them 10 seconds or so to decide what to do. This is one of my biggest pet peeves. they really have a long time to decide, while the other 4 players were taking their turn. Don't give 10 seconds, give six. The reason being is that combat is intense and the characters don't have that kind of time to just stop and mull it over. 10 seconds is too long. The PCs themselves have to make quick on the spot decisions. When it is a player's turn, say "What are you doing?" If they don't have an answer immediatly, say "you have five seconds." Count it out by numbering off with your hand in the air where they can see. If they don't say or do anything by the time you have all five fingers up, just move on to the next person. If they say, "Okay! I'll..." Say "too late" and move right along. IF they try to jump in, ignore them until it is there turn again. If they ever complain, say, "your PC doesn't have ten minutes to mull it over, so neither do you," and allow no further discussion. 1. Allowing the players too much freedom. I mistakenly equated letting them develop their character into letting them MinMax their character. Monstrous characters will destroy a campaign unless it is specifically set up for that. I generally allow players to generate the characters themselves but I give them specific boundaries. I have made a player's guide for my world and the players can do anything they like with in the boundaries that I've laid out. 2. I will never allow someone to play a character that they do not have a backgroud story for. If you can't put this minimal effort in, you should stick to video games. It was so frustrating to spend 4 hours preparing for a nights game and the players couldn't even remember to do a background. I agree with you on this one. I do, however, give my players up to level 3 to generate a background. 5. I need to put a stop to the players "coaching" each other during their turns. If it is not during a combat round, I will let the player's coach each other to a limited degree and only if the player's PC has an intelligence that greatly exceeds that of the player. Also, the player must ask for it. If a player constantly 'coaches' another player unsolicited, I deduct XP very very heavily. (1 warning then 500 XP penalty per violation). For example I once played an elven wizard with an intelligence of 21. My own intelligence is no where near being that high, so the DM would allow me to take suggestions from time to time. I never allow coaching during combat. If someone starts to say something, I will quickly say "Wait your turn." Anyway, that's all I have for right now. The main thing is the first and last rule of DMing is that you are the authority. Players will always try to push it but in the end they really do appreciate it more and have a lot more fun with DMs that don't let them get away with murder. It main seem like I'm hard on my players but I promise you my players have more fun at my games than most games. Unknowable -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 18] Author : JRRNeiklot Date : 10-16-03 01:38 AM Grumpy: I know EXACTLY how you feel. I'm 35, and I embraced 3e when it came out and had fun for a while. But eventually I ran into the same problems you describe, so now, my group plays either Hackmaster or 1st edition D&D. For a fresh 1e perspective, I reccomend www.Dragonsfoot.org. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 19] Author : SiHacker22 Date : 10-16-03 08:09 PM Thread Title : Ditch 3rd Edt & Go with Hackmaster I also went through the same deal with some work mates about 5 months back, look don't get me wrong 3 edt is a sound system but I find it too over the top. New players are just overwealmed with the multitudes of choise & the indepth nature of combat. KISS-Keep it Simple Silly but Keep it Fun & Real. I returned to my roots of playing & DMing-First Edt and later Hackmaster. Now I am currently enjoying and DMing 4 month campaign of a pure fun. Players Hack monsters get rich argue about loot and treat henchmen badly, and start bar fights-welcome to first edt. Cherrs Si -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 20] Author : grumpy DM Date : 10-16-03 11:05 PM I'm thinking about trying to get together a new group. Maybe some folks new to the game if I can find them. I'll keep with 3.5 and change quite a bit of it. I would like to try Hackmaster since I am a big fan of the Knights of the Dinner Table. I even have a BA Felton mini I use for a tavernkeeper. Grumpy DM -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 21] Author : soulwalker Date : 10-22-03 12:59 AM Thread Title : suggestions Here are some suggestions to all. Coaching: we defeated that by only allowing one sentence on your turn. Anything else said to coach the party cost experience points. Our group is working well now. A back ground is a must to help tie in the world. Our Dm will give us an item. May be or maybe not magical. Suchas a master work sword inherited from a father(later on player can have it inbued with magic). We all sat down and talked about playing and our styles. You will always have the Knights of the round table. :) One big thing was that we all had to have a life outside D&D. That was a must. Our group ranges from 25 to 39. Each person was interviewed by the others and we made a group out of those that were left and matched. ( I have done this since the mid 80s and it has worked great. I live in a big city so it is easier than a small town). Everyone has to buy in that everyone has to enjoy themselves even the DM. If not it wont work. I agree if you don't like 3e or 3.5e don't play it. God I have looked and DMing 3.5 is hell from what i can see. CR and SR ratings when setting up an adventure wow. It was funner DMing 1e and 2e. Thank god I am the terrain and prop maker. I don't have to DM hehehehe. Good luck to all. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 22] Author : Yen-Lo-Wang Date : 10-22-03 02:43 AM I feel your pain grumpy. I recently started with 3.0 after running a 2e campaign (That was a 1e before that, and Basic before that) for years. I actually like the new edition, I think it gives D&D something I thought was lacking in early editions, player versitility. On the other hand, with all the options it did become more complicated to run games and opened the door to rampant powergaming. Anywhoo, my old group stopped playing regularly due to one member being stationed in Germany, another having a baby and the third accepting a job offer in another state. After 19 years of playing, I found myself without a group. I checked out some of the groups at my local game stores . It took a few weeks, but I eventually found a group that's role playing ideal matched my own. They all decided to let the "Old Man" DM (I'm 28 and none of them are old enough to buy liquor legally) I sat all of them down and laid out what I expect in my games. Since we were all on the same page from the beginning everything has worked out fine. Some points I wanted to touch on... 1. Players taking too long deciding what to do: I do ten second rounds but the idea is the same. I actually keep a little ten second hourglass that I got out of some boardgame and flip it for each player. If they don't decide before then they lose their turn. (Should've seen them sweat the first time I broke it out...Classic) 2. PrCs: I allow a few core PrCs and homemade PrCs. PrCs have to earned through role playing. I don't allow core multiclassing if it doesn't make sense (ie a druid that has lived his entire life in the forest wants to strap on chain mail all of sudden for no reason) 3. Coaching: I allow some coaching, mainly basic tactical stuff (I'm hit! I need help! They are trying to flank us!) If 2 spellcasters want to combine spells for a greater effect that's fine, but they need to set it up in their 10 seconds. 4. Summoning: The way I see it, a druid can't summon anything they have never seen or at least read about. 5. XP Bonuses: An absolute in any campaign I run. I award good playing and great playing. I also give an award for creative thinking. (One of my players used grease on a steeply sloping dungeon passage, set a trip wire at the top, got a large group of orcs to chase an illusion to the slope, watched them fall and slide into the pit trap at the bottom...he got a bonus) 6. Character History: My players are really good about having a history. Some more creative than others, but all trying. If their history says they have an enemy or are running from the law you can bet it will make an appearance in the campaign. 7. Low levels: Anyone remember playing a first level magic user? Having one spell and a dagger? Back then, getting to second level was a major achievement. If your players are seeing the lower levels as a punishment, make it harder for them to get to higher levels. Some DMs I've seen make it too easy for lower level characters in my opinion. If it's harder they will appreciate that level they just gained that much more. I don't go out to waste them, but I do make them sweat for their XPs. Anyhow, I've rambled on long enough. Grumpy, keep on going in the direction you are and you'll find yourself enjoying the game again ;) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Downloaded from Wizards Community (http://forums.gleemax.com) at 05-10-08 08:20 AM.