I'm new to the forum, though I'm an old fan of the Mystara-setting.
At present I'm running a 3.5 campaign at The Great School of Magic in the year 1004+. (For those who reads Danish, it's described in detail here).
An important aspect of Glantri is the banishing of clerics and their divine magic, but which Immortals and followers were banished from Glantri?
Some are easy: The Traladaran Church and it's Immortals and likewise with the Ethengarians, the Thyatians and the Alphatians. My assumption is, that the most common Immortals among these people were worshipped. But what about the elves? The expelled dwarves and most importantly how about the Flaems, the Klantyres and the d'Ambrevilles?
Any suggestions?
Hi,
I'm new to the forum, though I'm an old fan of the Mystara-setting.
Welcome!
An important aspect of Glantri is the banishing of clerics and their divine magic, but which Immortals and followers were banished from Glantri?
Some are easy: The Traladaran Church and it's Immortals and likewise with the Ethengarians, the Thyatians and the Alphatians. My assumption is, that the most common Immortals among these people were worshipped. But what about the elves? The expelled dwarves and most importantly how about the Flaems, the Klantyres and the d'Ambrevilles?
Any suggestions?
For the Elves, I'd assume that the Belcadiz didn't have a patron Immortal to begin with, while the Erewan simply keep their Tree of Life (if they have one) secret.
As for the Flaems, they were originally Old Alphatians. Old Alphatians didn't have clerics, since they were almost all mages, and developed religion only after landing on Mystara and finding their magical prowess diminished.
As to the Laterrans (Klantyrians and Averoignese), their ruling families were not exactly religious even in the beginning. However, we know of one priest in each of the ruling family: Sir Bruce, a cleric of Razud, IIRC, and Simon d'Ambreville. Simon comes from Clark Ashton Smith's Averoigne -- i.e. from a place based on France between 1300 and 1500 (and therefore he must have been originally a catholic priest there). However, his patron Immortal has certainly changed over the years, as Simon switched from Evil to Neutral, or perhaps even Good, alignment.
GP
Thanks for your quick answer. It spurred me to look at new look on my books, now knowing where to look.
In GAZ3 (p.25): The mother, Lady Eleesea (E10, N), is the Treekeeper of the Clan and the only clan member to actually influence the princess; Lady Norelia and Bethys (E10, N), the Treekeeper's sisters are the clan's oracles. All three are famous seers among the elves [...]"
So it is tempting to assume that the elves in secret maintains some kind of worship, though I can't remember having seen anyone making a problem out of this - no enemy nobles knowing this, no books mentioning possible plots about this. Perhaps this is simply due to the fact, that the Trees of Life weren't at the time connected to elven religion, this first being defined in GAZ 5?
And you have a good point about the Alphatians not developing any religion before arriving on the planet. Both Alphaks and Alphatia originated here. It is however possible that there were followers among Halzunthram's people, when they arrived, so that it was the followers of Alphatia, that were banished. Alphaks doesn't seem to have had an official following, more working behind the lines (having gained a worshipper in Prince Morphail).
However when I read about Razud (in WotI) it states that he was an Immortal of Cypric descent. A pre-Alphatian Conquest Immortal sponsored by Ixion. It further states that he was after the conquest adopted by the Alphatians.
So two assumptions are possible here:
1) The Cypric worshipped Energy/Fire Immortals
2) The Alphatians in the least worshipped Cypric Immortals, and since this is possible for them, it is not unlikely that they had Immortals of their own.
I like the idea of the Cyprics as being some kind of fire worshippers, and they form some of the basis for the later Followers of Flame, and hence it is possible that the Alphatians worshipped some "Air"-based Immortals, that forms the basis for the Followers of the Air. I don't see the respective followers as religions, but more like philosophies, that originally were based on the religions, but with time became philosophical views, so that when they enter history, they are no longer religions.
Summa is that I will assume, that there might have been followers of Razud and Ixion (in his Cypric aspect) among the Flaem. Perhaps they rediscovered the Immortals while they were cursed to travel the outer planes? When clerics were banished from Glantri, they too left and most likely either died out or only exists as minor religions in nearby cities such as Corunglain.
That however leaves me wondering what the ancient Alphatians might have been worshipping.
And the Belcadiz remains a mystery.
That however leaves me wondering what the ancient Alphatians might have been worshipping.
And the Belcadiz remains a mystery.
I'd say the Erewan followed Ilsundal and may still do in secret.
The Belcadiz most likely originally followed Ordana as she was the elven patron when they lived on Davania.
Dwarves probably worshipped Kagyar. The Gnomes of Torkyn Falls probably followed Garel...
Havard
The Erewan most likely do, however IIRC there are no references to any potential plots about this in the canonic material, so either this were overlooked by the authors, or it is a so wellkept secret, that nobody outside the Erewan knows, or it is somehow accepted by the others, though that doesn't sound likely.
But when it comes to the Belcadiz considering their convoluted history, I find it a bit hard to accept, that they didn't adopt or gain any new Immortals to worship, their culture did perform some drastic changes. So perhaps one should look to the Ispans to see what Immortals the Belcadiz might have chosen?
BTW appearently the elves on Savage Coast (according to RS) worships Eiryndul and Ordana, Calitha, Mealiden and Ilsundal are worshipped by other races, so some elves might follow them too.
Hi Havard,
Hei hei
The Erewan most likely do, however IIRC there are no references to any potential plots about this in the canonic material, so either this were overlooked by the authors, or it is a so wellkept secret, that nobody outside the Erewan knows, or it is somehow accepted by the others, though that doesn't sound likely.
I don't have the gaz with me at the moment so I couldnt check for specific references, but I suggest that the religious nature of the Tree is a secret known only to a few individuals among the elves such as the Treekeeper. Others believe it to be purely a magical item.
But when it comes to the Belcadiz considering their convoluted history, I find it a bit hard to accept, that they didn't adopt or gain any new Immortals to worship, their culture did perform some drastic changes. So perhaps one should look to the Ispans to see what Immortals the Belcadiz might have chosen?
BTW appearently the elves on Savage Coast (according to RS) worships Eiryndul and Ordana, Calitha, Mealiden and Ilsundal are worshipped by other races, so some elves might follow them too.
Hmmm... this all depends on your take on the origins of the Belcadiz. Im currently working under the theory that the Belcadiz were not so much affected by human culture, but that they already had a Spanish-like culture when they encountered the Thyatian tribes in the Hinterlands. The Thyatians (And Kerendans, but not so much the Hattians) adopted part of the Belcadiz culture there before returning to the Known World. It is important from this that the Belcadiz themselves never visited the Savage Coast.
Based on this assumption, I find it unlikely that the Belcadiz would have adopted patrons like Ilsudal and Eiryndul or even heard much of them before meeting the Erewan. Other Thyatian/Ispan Immortals would certainly be possible (Ixion, Asterius, Protius, Khoronus, Vanya, Valerias etc...) as would perhaps Calitha. Ordana (and possibly Terra) would be followed by traditionalists from the days of Evergrun.
Some more thoughts on the origin of the Belcadiz/Ispan culture:
Is it possible that this culture in Mystara is derived from the Greek-like Milennians? The Belcadiz might hail from a larger elven culture that lived near or alongside the Milennians untill that culture collapsed. The Belcadiz remained in the Outer World however, having largely adopted Milennian culture, like the Romans adopted many ideas from the Greek. Thyatian/Ispan culture was formed when the Belcadiz encountered the Antalian slaves brought to the Hinterlands by the Nithians. This meeting affected both the slaves and the elves. Both cultures eventually travelled across the sea, settling in two different parts of the Known World, but their cultural bonds remain. (I know the timeline suggests the Belcadiz travelled to the Glantri region, then left, before returning a second time, but I'm sure that can be included somehow.
This doesn't all explain why the Savage Coast elves, who are mainly descended from the Sylvan Realm elves adopted the Ispan culture though. I would suggest that this implies that there has been contact between those elves and the Belcadiz for a long time, even before Ispan colonists arrived on the Savage Coast.
BTW: I had a look at your website/blog. Quite an interesting read!
Havard
Hei hei
I don't have the gaz with me at the moment so I couldnt check for specific references, but I suggest that the religious nature of the Tree is a secret known only to a few individuals among the elves such as the Treekeeper. Others believe it to be purely a magical item.
From the Gaz's description it doesn't really say anything. I suspect that it was "just" included because Treekeepers were a part of the elven culture according to the rulebooks. So I don't think there's any more to it than that, and it ends up with the individual GM to do, what he thinks is best
Hmmm... this all depends on your take on the origins of the Belcadiz. Im currently working under the theory that the Belcadiz were not so much affected by human culture, but that they already had a Spanish-like culture when they encountered the Thyatian tribes in the Hinterlands. The Thyatians (And Kerendans, but not so much the Hattians) adopted part of the Belcadiz culture there before returning to the Known World. It is important from this that the Belcadiz themselves never visited the Savage Coast.
Ach! Those darned Belcadiz! They never won't fit proper into the historybooks! Where did they go, and how come their culture developed as it did? It seems like we're never going to get an answer to that one. The history of the elves is complex enough as it is, that one doesn't really need the Belcadiz to mix up things, but it leaves us a lot fun trying to solve these complexities.
Oh well, soon the PC's in my campaign will be visiting the ruins of heretic cult in Klantyre, and I need to make up my mind as to what Immortals, that might have been worshipped there, before all the clerics were expelled.