like the Braxat..can it be struck by dasl made weapons.
i haven't seen anything that says ya' or nay' either way (even in the thri-kreen hand book)
It is a kind of crystal, so no.
Well, technically, pretty much all metallic weapons and tools are (poly)crystals. The opposite isn't true, though: not all crystals are metallic.
Being as hard as metal does not mean it is metal.
This is entirely true. Diamond is the toughest solid known, but it's all carbon. No metallic atoms, impurities aside.
I picked this up from Thri-Kreen of Athas.
The plant serves as a catalyst. When the venom and plant juice are spit onto sand, the sand bonds together into an opaque, crystalline substance, much like cloudy glass. For approximately a day, this substance is soft enough to be shaped by a thri-kreen using claws or simple tools.
Not really sure how this works. But it seems to me that the whole process pretty much only fuses sand particles together. Hence, I guess that dasl is still mostly made of sand (SiO2?).
Braxat and other monsters have damage reduction of x/metal. If it's the hardness of steel that makes it effective against these monsters, then dasl weapons should work too. But if it's the rarity and special mystique of metals in the setting, then no, sand doesn't really qualify.
Lurking
I'm not sure about your logic there Shadow,
OK, let me clarify.
According to the passage of TKoA I quoted previously, Dasl is made by spitting a mixture of venom and chewed herbs onto sand.
For whatever reason, the resulting material is really hard. "Fantasy mechanics" are probably at work here: no real world explanation for why that happens.
But I find it unlikely that even fantasy spit can transmutate the chemical elements of sand. Maybe it can, but it's unlikely.
So, the chemical make up of Dasl is still mostly that of sand added with whatever was in the spit. There's probably no significant amounts of metallic atoms in it.
Again, if it's the hardness of metals that make those materials effective against creatures with DR x/metal, then Dasl works too. The hardness of Dasl is a fact stablished by the setting. But I figure it's the mystique of metals that's the main factor here; and dasl isn't made of metals.
Pure Silicate is really no harder than Obsidian for this purpose there're fairly identical (IRL).
But there's nothing pure about sand. And we don't know what's in the Kreen spit. Steel is just iron with a tiny bit of impurities added to it.
Besides, both graphite and diamond are made of pure carbon, but their mechanical properties are nothing alike.
Maybe the Dasl making process significantly changes the structural make up of sand. Or introduces beneficial lattice defects in the crystallites, or alters the grain size and arrangement, or whatever.
Lurking
With the Dsal, think of it as Cement. You add sand or gravel to the mixture for added strength and stability to get concreate, like steel is added to brick buildings for added strength and stability - the sand becomes the framework for the kreen saliva and Zik-thok to take hold for stability. The secret is not the sand that becomes the dsal, it's just a convenient framework.
As for the Pure Silicate, I know sand isn't pure (until cleaned) - again just didn't fully explain myself there. Steel is Iron with carbon, mostly I'm not a metalurgest so the details are out of my area of knowledge.
Diamonds and graphite may both be stronger than steel, but both are also more brittle. What makes some creatures resistant to non-metals, I don't know but it doesn't look like it just an objects hardness. Gold, lead, silver, copper, bronze, iron and steel are all metals avaliable in Dark Sun, do silvered weapons work against damage resistant beasts? or is iron/steel needed to breech their hide?
Well I got to go now.
Sorry Shadow, I was half asleep when I posted, wasn't trying to offend you there.
With the Dsal, think of it as Cement. You add sand or gravel to the mixture for added strength and stability to get concreate, like steel is added to brick buildings for added strength and stability - the sand becomes the framework for the kreen saliva and Zik-thok to take hold for stability. The secret is not the sand that becomes the dsal, it's just a convenient framework.
As for the Pure Silicate, I know sand isn't pure (until cleaned) - again just didn't fully explain myself there. Steel is Iron with carbon, mostly I'm not a metalurgest so the details are out of my area of knowledge.
Diamonds and graphite may both be stronger than steel, but both are also more brittle. What makes some creatures resistant to non-metals, I don't know but it doesn't look like it just an objects hardness. Gold, lead, silver, copper, bronze, iron and steel are all metals avaliable in Dark Sun, do silvered weapons work against damage resistant beasts? or is iron/steel needed to breech their hide?
Well I got to go now.
well thanks for leaving us hanging on the endge of our seats after getting me ALL worked up on what kind of metal will hurt a braxat
...now you opened up a whole differnt issue i hadn't even concidered
Sorry Shadow, I was half asleep when I posted, wasn't trying to offend you there.
Uh, sure. I wasn't offended at all. I hope I didn't sound offended.
With the Dsal, think of it as Cement. You add sand or gravel to the mixture for added strength and stability to get concreate, like steel is added to brick buildings for added strength and stability - the sand becomes the framework for the kreen saliva and Zik-thok to take hold for stability.
Yeah, I get it. You are suggesting that Dasl is a composite material, with the solidified spit as the matrix and sand as reinforcement, right?
Admittedly, the whole Dasl making process does sound suspiciously like making cement. But the designer of TKoA describes it as crystal and even discusses how its crystalline lattice structure behaves. That's why I took as granted that Dasl is either mono or poly crystalline.
Then again, I doubt that the designer knows the difference between a composite material, a crystalline one, and an amorphous one. Or cares.
Real world logic and science will only take us so far.
Steel is Iron with carbon, mostly I'm not a metalurgest so the details are out of my area of knowledge.
Not a metallurgist either; not even close. From what I gather, steel is an alloy of iron and small amounts of carbon or other elements. Hence my comment that steel is iron with impurities.
Diamonds and graphite may both be stronger than steel, but both are also more brittle.
Hey, I only said that diamond is stronger than steel, not graphite!:P
You are right. As strong as diamond may be, it's not as malleable as steel. Nevertheless, Dasl is also described as brittle. From TKoA:
The crystal's lattice structure is stable in small, three-pronged items like chatkcha and the heads of gythka. However, the structure is unstable if used for other constructions. A dasl breastplate, such a thing, would break into smaller pieces when struck. A dasl long sword would break the first time it was used, because the crystalline structure would not support the length of the weapon compared to its width.
What makes some creatures resistant to non-metals, I don't know but it doesn't look like it just an objects hardness.
I agree. Not really sure what's the rationale behind it, but that's what the rules seem to imply.
Gold, lead, silver, copper, bronze, iron and steel are all metals avaliable in Dark Sun, do silvered weapons work against damage resistant beasts?
Doesn't seem very reasonable, does it? Silver is weak, and weapons made of it are inferior. Save for some supernatural effect, silver shouldn't be more effective than obsidian, or whatever. But, again, that's what the rules seem to imply.
or is iron/steel needed to breech their hide?
Yeah. Maybe that's what athas.org really meant, when they were designing ToA.
Lurking
Yeah, I get it. You are suggesting that Dasl is a composite material, with the solidified spit as the matrix and sand as reinforcement, right?
Admittedly, the whole Dasl making process does sound suspiciously like making cement. But the designer of TKoA describes it as crystal and even discusses how its crystalline lattice structure behaves. That's why I took as granted that Dasl is either mono or poly crystalline.
Then again, I doubt that the designer knows the difference between a composite material, a crystalline one, and an amorphous one. Or cares.
Real world logic and science will only take us so far.
I've seen it as more like an epoxy:
In chemistry, epoxy or polyepoxide is a thermosetting epoxide polymer that cures (polymerizes and crosslinks) when mixed with a catalyzing agent or "hardener".
Thri-kreen saliva, mixed with one of the other ingredients (isn't there some kind of plant leaf they chew or something) forms an epoxy, mixing in sand and other ingredients, that once it hardens, it becomes somewhat crystallized. I'd say it is closer to certain plastics than metal.
]Not a metallurgist either; not even close. From what I gather, steel is an alloy of iron and small amounts of carbon or other elements. Hence my comment that steel is iron with impurities.
Iron, nickel, and carbon are the three main ingredients, I believe.
Thri-kreen saliva, mixed with one of the other ingredients (isn't there some kind of plant leaf they chew or something) forms an epoxy, mixing in sand and other ingredients, that once it hardens, it becomes somewhat crystallized. I'd say it is closer to certain plastics than metal.
That plant would be Zik-thok, I have no idea if there is a non-kreen name for it, but more and more this is starting to sound like a resin type substance (a natural epoxy if you will). The Zik-thok provides resin, Kreen venom acts as a hardener, and sand becomes a foundation.
my assumption is that dasl is not on the same weapon hardness level as stone/obsidian (hence no weapon att/dmg penalty for its use in a weapon structure that dasl will support in 2E), therefore if it us used in a weapon make that takes advantage of its unique nature (ie thri-kreen weapons or other small weapons (dagger/spear tip/arrow tip/axes etc according to pg 36 ot TKoA)) it should be able to strike a target with the metal only SD...also on this same pg in TKoA it said "
dasl is coveted; since it is as strong as steel, but weighs half as much
"
i am leening on the far side of the fence that dasl when used in a weapon design that it can support, will penatrate a braxat hide. maybe
Most Athasian weapons are inferior to regular PHB metal weapons only in terms of hardness and hit points and the fact that they are made of inferior materials. That's an important difference from a defensive point of view: if someone is trying to sunder your macahuitl, it is easier to do than if they were trying to sunder your metal longsword. Otherwise, in most respects the macahuitl and the longsword are identical.
Having monsters with DR/metal makes metal weapons valuable from an offensive point of view as well. We wanted to give the metal weapons some extra oomph over their non-metal counterparts and monster design was one area that we could do that. Giving certain creatures DR/metal meant that metal weapons were now a valid choice in certain combats, helping to make them worth their huge price-tag and making them worthwhile from an offensive as well as a defensive point of view.
Now whether you want to come up with a pseudo-scientific rationale for this is entirely up to the individual DM. You can say that metal holds its edge better, which helps to cut through the hides of creatures with DR/metal, for example. Or you could say that certain creatures have evolved (devolved?) a susceptibility to metal due to its scarcity. Or you could take a looser approach and just leave it as a general piece of setting flavour that helps to make metal special on Athas. Or whatever you like
.As far as dasl goes in DS3e, while it is as hard as steel, it does not bypass DR/metal (see Unusual Materials in the DS3e Core Rules.) I don't know if this will still be true in any future release of the rules, however. But those were the main rationales we looked at when designing the current iteration of the Core Rules.
but doesnt DS3e also remove all the material penalties for using stone/wood/bone?
It removes those penalties for athas-specific weapons (like the macahuitl) with the rationale that Athasians have had time to get maximum use out of their native resources. Those penalties do still apply, however, to PHB weapons made from inferior materials (like a bone longsword). Some PHB weapons can be made from inferior materials and not suffer penalties (daggers, spears, clubs and a few others).
(FWIW, I'm not overly fond of Athas-specific weapons like the macahuitl being made from inferior materials yet not receiving the penalties. This was, however, a design decision made necessary by the requirement to have affordable non-metal weapons for DS characters that don't weaken their combat abilities compared to the baseline set in the PHB. Easy to houserule either way
.)which for what it is worth I am not playing a 3e campaign, i am using a mix between DS2 and DS2R rules. and by these rules every thing but metal and dasl recieve penalties to weapon att/dmg and evrything but metal or dasl have a break chance. another reason i am thinking dasl can penatrate braxat hide.
Ah, OK. Well, my waffling is less likely to be of use to you in that case, heh. I'd see no reason to prevent dasl from penetrating braxat hide. It's a rare material and won't break the game either way. Giving it that characteristic makes dasl kinda cool as well
.It removes those penalties for athas-specific weapons (like the macahuitl) with the rationale that Athasians have had time to get maximum use out of their native resources. Those penalties do still apply, however, to PHB weapons made from inferior materials (like a bone longsword). Some PHB weapons can be made from inferior materials and not suffer penalties (daggers, spears, clubs and a few others).
(FWIW, I'm not overly fond of Athas-specific weapons like the macahuitl being made from inferior materials yet not receiving the penalties. This was, however, a design decision made necessary by the requirement to have affordable non-metal weapons for DS characters that don't weaken their combat abilities compared to the baseline set in the PHB. Easy to houserule either way
Ah, OK. Well, my waffling is less likely to be of use to you in that case, heh. I'd see no reason to prevent dasl from penetrating braxat hide. It's a rare material and won't break the game either way. Giving it that characteristic makes dasl kinda cool as well
thanks for the feed back, but before i make my final decission (i know i just hacked that word to pieces) i will wait for a few more thoughts on this also.
it's one of very few ways a pack of Kreen would stand a chance against monsters with the appropriate damage reduction. Dasl seems to be rare and guarded enough that it wouldn't get out of hand.
I'm of the same opinion. I haven't checked athas.org's rules on daslcraft, but it seems to me that dasl's far from being a game breaker. Making Dasl takes time, effort and the commitment of a significant amount of skill points. Besides, its flavourful, and ripe with roleplaying possibilities. TKoA suggests that the kreen regard their Dasl weapons with almost religious reverence...
plus if a small group of braxat ever wandered into the kreen empire area, they'd have next to nothing to stop those braxats with. maybe some clerical magic or psionics but really, nothing physical to stop them with.
through this discuss i have come to the conclussion, that for my campaign, dasl weapons will be able to be used on SD metal only monsters, as long as those weapons are with in the limits of the dasl design requirements.
The what's the point of the 'prized' metal chatkcha mentioned in TKoA. The Kreen Empire could just as well have access to iron mines too, there's really not a lot of information on them.
i've been reading the TKoA from front to back of late trying to create a character, and i can't seem to find this mention. can you list a ref pg please.
also here are a few qoutes:
Dasl weighs approximately the same amount as similar volume of stone, but is quite similar to steel in terms of holding an edge, breakage, and so forth.
pg 35 TKoA; Dasl
While chatkcha can be made of other materials, the dasl ones are the most personal and the most prized, both for their revered substance and their sturdiness.
pg 36 TKoA; Making Weapons of Dasl
This issue seems like something a lot of people have a lot of well thought-out points of view on. Maybe just for the heck of it, we should have a vote, to see what the community consensus is.
I would vote no. It just does not feel right from a fluff point of view. It may help from a game mechanics point, but from the back ground of the campagin it does not fit. Metal is precious for a number of reasons, and this is just one of them.
i've been reading the TKoA from front to back of late trying to create a character, and i can't seem to find this mention. can you list a ref pg please.
also here are a few qoutes:
pg 35 TKoA; Dasl
pg 36 TKoA; Making Weapons of Dasl
Found mention of it on pages 45 and 46 of TKoA, the part I seem to be remembering might be from some other book.
Found mention of it on pages 45 and 46 of TKoA, the part I seem to be remembering might be from some other book.
thanks, i'll go look those pages over when i get home.