* * * Wizards Community Thread * * * -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Thread : No WotC tributes to the classics? Started at 10-27-03 09:02 PM by Dragonchild Visit at http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=122798 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 1] Author : Dragonchild Date : 10-27-03 09:02 PM Thread Title : No WotC tributes to the classics? I recently visited the local gaming shop and flipped through the new Forgotten Realms sourcebook about the Underdark. I was disappointed. . . sort of. Actually, it was quite a good sourcebook, but it didn't have the one thing I was specifically looking for: The Adventure that Started it All. Oh, there were drow and kuo-toa, and other familiar Underdark dwellers. Still. . . no hint of the epic GDQ series? I know I blasted it when some put it in the "Best OD&D Module" thread, but my gripe was specific: I said it was historically significant, not well-written. In short, it was ahead of its time. But now it's no longer ahead of its time, and we have a big, hardback book on the Underdark. . . with no tribute to the adventure that started it all. Something about "The Silence of Lolth", yes, but if that's the reference to GDQ, then it's really weak. I was hoping for something on, "The discovery of the Underdark by a group of brave adventurers who inadvertently stumbled upon a fiendish plot by Lolth during a counter-attack on some giants. . ." Oh, how I would've eaten that up. Did I miss something, or are there no tributes to the 1st edition modules? Does the Ravenloft campaign make no mention of the original Ravenloft module beyond the existence of Strahd? Does the Keep on the Borderland and/or the Caves of Chaos get mentioned in any 3rd edition product? Is Hackmaster the only game that appreciates old-fart gamer nostalgia? I'd really love to be proven wrong. If anyone knows of any 3rd ed tributes to the old 1st edition modules, please post them here. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 2] Author : Dragonchild Date : 10-27-03 09:03 PM Ooh, I just remembered: Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 3] Author : Kuje31 Date : 10-27-03 10:07 PM Well those modules are not really a part of FR..... They are Greyhawk modules. The silence of Lloth is about the six book series that has been produced so far for 3e, and only three of them are out right now. They also tie into the Spider Queen module for FR, that is 3E specific..... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 4] Author : diaglo Date : 10-28-03 07:41 AM in 1999 they released the Silver (25th) Anniversary series. Against the Giants: The Liberation of Geoff was the 2ed equivalent of the return to modules... Also the Anniversary boxed set had some reprints of the individual G modules.;) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 5] Author : dogstar Date : 10-28-03 08:29 AM Strahd does turn up in Ravenloft (as his is one of the many domains) and Lord Soth (Dragonlance uber-cool finger of death pointing Death Knight) was also 'relocated' to Ravenloft. WotC did also release Return to the Keep on the Borderlands.... I wish I had bought it.... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 6] Author : Malaug Date : 10-28-03 08:34 AM Thread Title : Books There's a bunch of Greyhawk books which are stories based on those Adventures. Against the Giants, Keep on the Borderlands, Temple of Elemental Evil, Tomb of Horror, White Plume Mountain, Descent into the Depths of the Earth and Queen of the Demonweb Pits, and I did lap them up they were great reads. Try getting your hands on those to conjure back some memories. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 7] Author : diaglo Date : 10-28-03 08:37 AM Thread Title : Re: Books Originally posted by Malaug There's a bunch of Greyhawk books which are stories based on those Adventures. Against the Giants, Keep on the Borderlands, Temple of Elemental Evil, Tomb of Horror, White Plume Mountain, Descent into the Depths of the Earth and Queen of the Demonweb Pits, and I did lap them up they were great reads. Try getting your hands on those to conjure back some memories. they were written by Paul Kidd, Thomas Reid, and Ru Emerson. http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=3665Q1LMLJ&sourceid=00346648526860327543&bfdate=10%2D28%2D2003+08%3A36%3A54&isbn=0786919035&itm=1 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 8] Author : Solaris Date : 10-28-03 03:31 PM The Keep on the Borderlands novel, I think by Ru Emerson, was the absolute worst book I ever read, bar none. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 9] Author : chatdemon Date : 10-29-03 07:09 AM Thread Title : Re: No WotC tributes to the classics? Originally posted by Dragonchild Oh, there were drow and kuo-toa, and other familiar Underdark dwellers. Still. . . no hint of the epic GDQ series? Probably because the GDQ series were Greyhawk modules, not Forgotten Realms. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 10] Author : chatdemon Date : 10-29-03 07:11 AM Originally posted by dogstar WotC did also release Return to the Keep on the Borderlands.... I wish I had bought it.... You aren't missing much, honestly. It's poorly balanced (very poorly, a 1st level module featuring mesudas? wha?) and poorly redesigned to fit into Greyhawk. Kenzerco's Little Keep on the Borderlands is, IMO, a far better tribute/revisitation. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 11] Author : diaglo Date : 10-29-03 07:44 AM Originally posted by chatdemon Kenzerco's Little Keep on the Borderlands is, IMO, a far better tribute/revisitation. and the Covers cool too. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 12] Author : dogstar Date : 10-29-03 10:54 AM Originally posted by chatdemon You aren't missing much, honestly. It's poorly balanced (very poorly, a 1st level module featuring mesudas? wha?) . Ah its an old basic Tradition, hardcore monsters for lowly PCs. The same adventure features a wight! Infact so did Castle Cauldwell and several other 1-3rd Level adventures - A least you have a chance against the Medusa - The Wight kills anyone it hits or drains one level, has 4+1 HD and can only be hit with silver and magic weapons. And those it kills come back eventually as 1/2 Strength wights under its command..... The Castle Cauldwell adventure became notorious from starting at 1-3 level, and ending up around 4-6th because two partys got slaughter almost to a man and made a run for it, coming back later only to discover not one, but 5 wights, losing 3 PCs before legging it (and coming back at 5th level, when the Wizard just fireballed all 8 of them) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 13] Author : Dragonchild Date : 11-04-03 07:03 PM I found another blast from the past: The Book of Exalted Deeds revisits the Cup and Talisman of al'Akbar, from the 1st ed module, Day of Al'Akbar. That was a pleasant surprise in an otherwise disappointing sourcebook. WotC did also release Return to the Keep on the Borderlands.... I wish I had bought it.... Er? I didn't even see it, and I visit my local gaming store frequently. Lemme guess, it featured the iconics plastered on the cover, right? Re: game balance issues, running 1st-level characters up against monsters they have no hope of defeating teaches them a good, hard lesson. Much better to set the tone with that than allow them to stomp everything they meet. When I ran a group of 1st-level adventurers against a wereboar in 2nd ed, I got this collective look of realization: Oh gawd, this guy really doesn't care if he kills us! The ensuing caution took the game to a higher level -- they even beat the wereboar! As for campaign settings, what's wrong with revisiting the GDQ series in FR? Greyhawk is dead, and the GDQ adventures were vague enough in premise to fit just about anywhere. It was placed in Greyhawk because FR simply didn't exist at the time. FR has since absorbed all distinctive features of Greyhawk, the Underdark being a good example thereof. Given that GDQ took place there, Greyhawk should've had a monopoly on the Underdark concept. . . except it's dead, ergo, the FR Underdark setting. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 14] Author : theDwarf Date : 11-05-03 12:08 AM Originally posted by diaglo and the Covers cool too. also by Kenzer & Company: Annilate the Giants Tomb of Unspeakable Horrors and many others (check the Kenzer & Company web site for a better list) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 15] Author : JeffB Date : 11-05-03 06:38 PM RtThe Keep on the Borderlands was a 2E module released in 1998 or 1999. No 3E Iconics:D It was full of good ideas but very poorly executed. In fact there are a few internet sites that have "fixed" versions/stats for it because it was so screwed up. EDIT: Ooops..didn't see Rich's post :D -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 16] Author : Elendur Date : 11-05-03 07:10 PM Originally posted by chatdemon You aren't missing much, honestly. It's poorly balanced (very poorly, a 1st level module featuring mesudas? wha?) and poorly redesigned to fit into Greyhawk. Kenzerco's Little Keep on the Borderlands is, IMO, a far better tribute/revisitation. I haven't read the Return module, but in defense of the original B2 module: The medusa encounter is fairly well balanced. The medusa is chained to the wall and without her poison arrows. She is also convieniently carrying enough stone to flesh potions for everyone. The wight has a good chance of being turned by a 3rd level cleric. Both those encounters occur in the Evil Temple cave, the 'last' cave in the ravine. If the players start with the lower caves first, they will have no problem leveling up to 3rd. Also that last cave has a 'this cave oozes evil' description, as does the other hard caves. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 17] Author : rostoff Date : 11-08-03 02:31 AM Greyhawk is dead :confused: Originally by Dragonchild The RPGA is unaware of your decision. They are running that pesky "Living Greyhawk" campaign are they not? It (GDQ) was placed in Greyhawk because FR simply didn't exist at the time. :eek: originally by Dragonchild Have you checked who the Author of the series was recently? GARY GYGAX for some reason put it in HIS OWN WORLD. How surprising is that? Play and love whatever setting you want, but please check the facts before spouting off. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 18] Author : Amaron Blackthorn Date : 11-09-03 06:50 PM i ALSO THINK THAT IT WOULD BE GREAT IF wOc WERE TO REPRINT SOME OF THSE MODULES, ESPECAUILAAY SINCE THERE ARE PEOPLE OUT THERE WHO REMMEMBER PALYING THE ORIGINALAS. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 19] Author : Dragonchild Date : 11-10-03 08:16 PM Play and love whatever setting you want, but please check the facts before spouting off. Ah, you think this is personal. I'd be glad to explain the numerous and egregrious misinterpretations you made, but I'll wait until you've calmed down and grown up. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 20] Author : rostoff Date : 11-10-03 08:37 PM Originally posted by Dragonchild I'd be glad to explain the numerous and egregrious misinterpretations you made, but I'll wait until you've calmed down and grown up. I'm waiting. I only made two points. I've never considered two numerous. I'd also like to know which point I made was an egregious misinterpretation. Did EGG not write the GDQ series? Does the RPGA not have a Living Greyhwk Campaign? I actually agree with you that GDQ can be easily placed in any campaign world. I just didn't want your uneducated assertions that accompanied it to go unchallenged. Its easy to post clever put downs. Do you have any facts to support your original statements? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 21] Author : Dragonchild Date : 11-11-03 06:51 PM (x-post due to timeout) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 22] Author : Dragonchild Date : 11-11-03 06:53 PM rostoff, check your private message folder. For the sake of everyone else, I'm going to ignore any further digression in this thread. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 23] Author : sedrorovin murghurobag Date : 11-12-03 03:35 AM By no means dead, Greyhawk plods along as it always has; underfunded; supported by aging, fanatical fans; and marginalized by whatever fad happens to wrest the spotlight for fifteen minutes. In short, we fight the good fight, but some years are better than others. The only thing to remember is that 'hope' is not a four-letter word. We have the LGJ in Dungeon and occasionally in Dragon. The push for a compilation continues, and there are many loyal Greyhawk fans that keep and maintain web-sites independent of Wotc. Canonfire is a biggie, as is Dragonsfoot. But to say that Greyhawk was not specific enough for the GDQ series is nonsense. There are detaile locations given for the encouters, not to mention the drow city and finally lolth's layer of the abyss. All of them integral to a balance Gygax conceived for his setting. Fast forward to FR, which took all of these things from Greyhawk (stole them really), and now trys to pass them off as somehow setting specific to FR, which, again, is nonsense. Greyhawk fans have put up with this "sharing" for years, but don't mistake the silence of these fans as an opportunity to sell people on the notion that giants or drow make more sense in FR, because they don't. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 24] Author : NeutralNeutral Date : 11-13-03 08:43 AM Greyhawk is dead as far as WoTC are concerned. Greyhawk is a billion times better than Forgettable Rubbish. GDQ1-7 was written for Greyhawk, but 1E modules are not anchored into the setting the way later products are. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 25] Author : Thailfi Date : 11-13-03 10:18 AM Greyhawk has been gasping along for years because of horrible marketing. As young teenagers in the early 80s we might have been hooked by a world that gave us a creative story in a unique setting all summed up in one campaign source guide and some setting specific modules. Maybe for gravy you could produce a set of books that supported this campaign. What did we get? About two dozen Gazette's that are all integral to the understanding of the workings of Greyhawk and a bunch of modules that could take place anywhere and absolutely no characters that anyone could care about. This just did not appeal to a bunch of funds restricted 16 year old's. Along comes the mid 80's and we ravenously devour everything we can find on Dragonlance because it did right everything that Greyhawk did wrong. That is why I am worried about a lot of the 3.0-3.5e stuff. They redid Forgotten Realms, Geyhawk, and Dragonlance. they added Kalamar and this Eberron or whatever it is called thing. They are not doing modules at all much less some campaign specific stuff. Does anybody really care about these iconic characters that they have developed? Has there been a book worth reading? What is there to get excited about any of these campaign sourcebooks? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 26] Author : Elendur Date : 11-13-03 11:13 AM Originally posted by NeutralNeutral GDQ1-7 was written for Greyhawk, but 1E modules are not anchored into the setting the way later products are. Well, looking at A1, which I am running right now, they mention Highport, Pomarj, the Wild Coast, Drachensgrab hills, Gruumsh, ect. How much more tied in can it be? With Dragonlance, the modules WERE the setting, so that was unique at the time. In fact I've never been interested in playing in DL except for those original modules. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Downloaded from Wizards Community (http://forums.gleemax.com) at 05-10-08 08:20 AM.