* * * Wizards Community Thread * * * -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Thread : Fighter's Handbook question Started at 10-28-03 04:43 PM by avenger2003 Visit at http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=123246 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 1] Author : avenger2003 Date : 10-28-03 04:43 PM Thread Title : Fighter's Handbook question Hi there! I have a player who sprang a fighter on me using the Outlaw kit from the 2nd Ed. Complete Fighter's Handbook. The only problem is that I don't have that particular book. Is there anyone out there who can tell me the Benefits & Hindrances of this particular kit? The player was veeerrrryyy vague on this. :confused: Complete Fighter's Handbook -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 2] Author : Regularguy Date : 10-28-03 07:17 PM Thread Title : Re: Fighter's Handbook question Originally posted by avenger2003 Is there anyone out there who can tell me the Benefits & Hindrances of this particular kit? The player was veeerrrryyy vague on this. Don't blame the player; that was one veerrryy vague kit. ;) Simply put, "Outlaws do not have any intrinsic special benefits, although the DM can bestow some campaign-based benefits on them if he chooses." And the Hindrance you'd expect for Outlaws is that the authorities, who "do not have to put in an appearance in every single play-session," are, of course, "always out there." There are suggestions given; if the DM wants to require Outlaws to take a given Weapon Proficiency, that's fine; if not, also fine; if he wants to give 'em "a place where the law dares not enter" as a base of operations, fine; if not, also fine; if he wants to swap out the usual Bonus NWP for Tumbling, fine; if not, also fine; and as a side note, if an Outlaw finds himself living in the wild and leaves his metal armor exposed to the elements for an extended period of time, it'll tend to corrode -- so he should keep it stowed away when he doesn't need it. But, again, that's not a flat restriction. That kit is the vaguest in the book, to be sure. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 3] Author : avenger2003 Date : 10-28-03 08:19 PM Thanks Regularguy, for the answer to my question! The "vague" nature of this kit does worry me. The player is a bit how should we say, "extreme" in his view on a kit. For example, he tried the Noble Warrior kit and managed to tick off almost every PC he met, all because he focused on the line in the text about the character acting as if he was superior to others. Keep in mind he's a 1st level character with no support to call his own. The situation got worse as an encounter with a mage at a local wizard's guild deteriorated into a hissy fit as the player claimed that the mage cheated them on the identification of a healing potion. Despite the other players trying to explain that the mage could not give a detailed description without casting the actual spell, our "Noble" fighter proceeded to demand that the mage give him more service than the 2 gp he paid. Based on this behavior, I'm a tad worried that the Outlaw kit may be more trouble than it's worth but the player seems dead-set against any other kit. Any thoughts on this? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 4] Author : Regularguy Date : 10-28-03 08:42 PM Originally posted by avenger2003 Based on this behavior, I'm a tad worried that the Outlaw kit may be more trouble than it's worth but the player seems dead-set against any other kit. Any thoughts on this? Hmm. Since it doesn't give him much in the way of benefits, and the role-playing aspect can come just as easily from simply 'being an outlaw,' what the heck does he like so much about the kit? I'd think a Peasant Hero on the wrong side of the law (with a community willing to shelter him from the authorities, and provide him and his allies with food and drink and weapons and assistants), or a Gladiator (maybe an escaped slave, now a fugitive ducking recapture while drawing on that free Weapon Specialization and those bonus NWPs) would at least be in the running. (Oh, and as for the Noble Warrior bit: you did know that *other* nobles were supposed to show up whenever he gets too cocky, calling on him to honor his duties to them, right?) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 5] Author : avenger2003 Date : 10-29-03 09:30 AM Ah-ha! You followed my exact suggestions that I gave my player! Do you have a spy camera in my living room? But seriously, I think a Peasant Hero best fits my campaign yet my player seems fixated on some etheral advantage that none of us has seen. I figure I could let him try it out and if it works, great. If not, he goes to "Ye Olde Character Retirement Home" located in beautiful Spring Valley, just west of the High Forest. I briefly considered having a boorish older noble arrive and abuse the Hospitality requirement but the character has less than 20 gp at the moment and it might seem like I was gunning for him(and much whining from him at the expense of the group's time) Also, would you happen to know how much starting gold this kit receives. My player seems to have "forgotten" how much he rolled up but was certain it was enough to cover his initial equipment purchases. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 6] Author : dogstar Date : 10-29-03 10:47 AM Quibbling over a mere 2gp - That shocking given the treasure hauls of the old skool D&D/AD&D (Sabre River has 1,000,000 gp in carriable gems in one infamous location....) - What kind of peasant character that noble was!!!!:D -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 7] Author : Regularguy Date : 10-29-03 10:48 AM Originally posted by avenger2003 Ah-ha! You followed my exact suggestions that I gave my player! Do you have a spy camera in my living room? Heh. How can it be so obvious to both of us, and not to him? When he eventually unleashes whatever bizarre advantage he thinks he has coming in play, I'd sure like to hear about it; this kit seems like an interesting one for a player who wants to sit down with his DM and talk things over *beforehand*, but I can't for the life of me see what he's hoping to do without laying any groundwork. But seriously, I think a Peasant Hero best fits my campaign I've played one of those; it's a better kit, mechanics-wise, than some might give it credit for -- and the flavor text sets up a solid background for role-playing. Ah, well. I briefly considered having a boorish older noble arrive and abuse the Hospitality requirement but the character has less than 20 gp at the moment and it might seem like I was gunning for him(and much whining from him at the expense of the group's time) No, see, what you do is have a kindly old noble and his small retinue just making their way through town, and they look him up, and ask him to provide the modest comforts appropriate to his station for a night or two, as one would expect -- and when he has to turn them away to keep what little gold he has, why, his reputation among the nobility will take a *serious* hit, and even the middle-class folks will tend to see him as "no better than us, but he puts on airs all the same, doesn't he? I may just work a small mill with my sons, but at least it lets me pay my own way, and sometimes buy ale for the lot down at the tavern -- and he can't even say that, can he? Now his father, aye, *he* was a good man, a respected landowner, always generous with the laborers who worked his fields, always willing to lend a hand when one of 'em needed it -- and he helped build that big fine temple down the road, didn't he? But the son, well, maybe he ought to take up a respectable trade, eh?" You flip that +3 Reaction to a -6 for a while and he'll just have to let other folks in the party take point until he can rebuild his reputation. And don't expect other nobles to offer any free lodgings along the way -- not after the way he snubbed their longtime friend, don't you know. But if he can make publicly and lavishly make amends, well, then, suddenly everyone's calling him 'sir' again and hoping he'll throw plenty of silver their way. Also, would you happen to know how much starting gold this kit receives. What, the Outlaw? Standard for a Fighter, since they can come from all sorts of backgrounds: there's Robin Hood battling the usurper on the throne (but may have had to abandon much of his possessions when he was initially forced on the run), there's the street thief who ain't never been anything but a street thief (but maybe just hit it big enough to buy a decent suit of armor and try using his finely-honed thug skills as an adventurer), there's the longtime bandit who could plausibly have amassed any amount of wealth before joining up with the party, you get the idea. So the usual "anything from 50 to 200" is pretty much in play, as you'd expect. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 8] Author : avenger2003 Date : 10-29-03 11:27 AM Hmm, a few good ideas there in dealing with my obnoxious Noble Warrior. I'll let you know how his brave little Outlaw does. I think the group already figures that the Dwarf fighter is a better point person than our "fixated" player! :rolleyes: -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 9] Author : shadowelf Date : 10-29-03 06:16 PM 1. Any kit is subject to DM fiat - if you say no, then he can't have it. 2. There's no reason a player must have a kit at all. A good challenge for a role-player is to make a memorable character without a kit. 3. With the Outlaw kit, the player should define to you in what sense he is an outlaw. Then you can decide who is after him, and how often they turn up. Potentially the Outlaw kit is a friend to the DM - you are provided with plot hooks. Eg: if you want the players to leave town, the "law" turns up, at which point the PC should leave immediately. It should be easy to channel him in the right direction. It shouldn't be broken. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 10] Author : dogstar Date : 10-30-03 11:22 AM Yeah this was when TSR started down the Cash Cow Slopes with the production of masses of additional material for their main line. They were a good idea mind, its just that the got a bit carried away after a while....:D -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 11] Author : shadowelf Date : 10-30-03 04:09 PM Originally posted by dogstar Yeah this was when TSR started down the Cash Cow Slopes with the production of masses of additional material for their main line. They were a good idea mind, its just that the got a bit carried away after a while....:D Agreed. I thought the Complete Fighter and Thief were terrific. By the time of Complete Ranger and Druid I was somewhat less impressed. (Half-finished products, unplayable kits ... I won't go on.) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 12] Author : Regularguy Date : 10-30-03 05:53 PM Originally posted by shadowelf Agreed. I thought the Complete Fighter and Thief were terrific. By the time of Complete Ranger and Druid I was somewhat less impressed. (Half-finished products, unplayable kits ... I won't go on.) Agreed as well -- though I think I'm one of the few who really liked the Complete Priest's Handbook. ;) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 13] Author : avenger2003 Date : 10-30-03 06:09 PM I agree with you all. There were some good Handbooks out there. In your opinion, which one was the worst? Myself, the Elves handbook is my choice fpr worst handbook. It not only managed to undo the racial penalties for being an Elf but turned them more into insects with the "Reverie"[ I do believe that I've mispelled this word] ability. Ever contend with 2 sets of Elven twins in one group? Where was Lurtz from LOTR when I needed him? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 14] Author : AlteredEgo Date : 10-31-03 12:36 AM Ugh...elven twins... I dealt with them in the customary fashion. They died. :D I believe it was an illusionary treasure-at-the-bottom-of-a-pit covering the pool of sulfuric acid that did in the Thief, while a Tome of Tharizdun ate the poor Cleric's mind & soul... As a side note, I loved the Priest's book, liked the Fighter's, Thieves', Druid's, and Wizard's books, really didn't care for the Paladin's, Ranger's, or Gnome's/Halfling's books, and loathed the Elves', Ninja's, & Bard's books. The Dwarves' book wasn't so bad though, the flavor was great, the kits were...wanting. The Barbarian's book was also...meh...there were only two kits that even remotely intrigued me, the Mageslayer and the Runner (haven't my books on my at the moment, so I've probably screwed up the names of the kits). Humanoids was great...it gave the players exceptional roleplaying opportunities...and equally abusive ones as well. I saw groups with everything from the Pixie God-Of-Backstabbing to the Ogre wrestler with 25 strength and a charisma-that-made-a-3rd-Edition-Ooze-more-social. Even so, I never had problems with such things in my group, and that's what my opinions are based off of. I know I'm missing one in there somewhere, but for the life of me I cannot recall which it is...must not have been that great. :D Back to the topic however: The outlaw really doesn't do jack for a player, and I've only had a Player take this kit once, only because it fit his character idea so well (Robin Hood without the giving to the poor part). What it does do is give the DM so many options it's not funny...anything you need the PCs to do, can be hooked onto the Outlaw with no trouble. Save the Princess? Maybe he'll get a pardon, or maybe it's the law that's holding the Princess hostage. Clear the dwarven mine? Have the law chase the PCs into the mine -- dark and stormy night, chased by large hairy men with torches and sharp objects, wait, there's shelter up ahead! Not to mention if he's being a jackass, heap the law upon his character's head so often that the other PCs start resenting his character...no more jackhole... :D [edit: Avenger2003>> Lurtz is hanging out in 3rd Edition, he got tired of being an NPC in 2E, especially since the demotion from PC in 1E... ;)] -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 15] Author : imayb1 Date : 10-31-03 10:00 AM Thread Title : Tips for future dealings... It sounds like this player regularly presents you with stuff you're not familiar with. I would put an end to it. I would tell the player that A: you must you the core books or B: I need *complete* copy of this kit/class/concept/etc. -- at least two days before game day. I'll review it and if I don't like it, A: I modify it or B: you can't have it. RegularGuy, I can't believe *anybody* really thought the Priest's Handbook was worth the $$. ;) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 16] Author : Regularguy Date : 10-31-03 10:24 AM Thread Title : Re: Tips for future dealings... Originally posted by imayb1 It sounds like this player regularly presents you with stuff you're not familiar with. I would put an end to it. I would tell the player that A: you must you the core books or B: I need *complete* copy of this kit/class/concept/etc. -- at least two days before game day. I'll review it and if I don't like it, A: I modify it or B: you can't have it. Let me second that. Oh, and then go on to say, RegularGuy, I can't believe *anybody* really thought the Priest's Handbook was worth the $$. ;) Hey, what's not to like? Great kits, a lot of advice on how to role-play the hardest class to get right, and a set of priesthoods that made for terrific NPCs and interesting PCs alike. I know I'm in the minority on this one, but I still found it to be one of the top-tier "Complete" books. YMMV, of course. But in what way do you think it fell short of, say, Fighter and Thief? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 17] Author : imayb1 Date : 10-31-03 10:46 AM RE: Priest's Handbook IMO, there was nothing to *use*... I use the FR pantheon, so the deities were pretty well laid out in terms of responsibilities and tasks of clergy, what's expected of them, holy days, etc. There were no new spells or skills. I didn't find it useful at all. In comparision, the Thief had new skills, kits, magic items, and some great thieves' guild builing info. The Fighter introduced weapon groups! The Bard had reputation, new spells, kits, and musical instrument groups. Even the druid had some interesting kit ideas. Granted, the Elf book went Waaaaayyyyy too far, giving away so many "granted" abilities for all elves and making them so powerful that they overbalanced any other race...:rolleyes: -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 18] Author : Regularguy Date : 10-31-03 11:11 AM Originally posted by imayb1 RE: Priest's Handbook IMO, there was nothing to *use*... I use the FR pantheon, so the deities were pretty well laid out in terms of responsibilities and tasks of clergy, what's expected of them, holy days, etc. There were no new spells or skills. I didn't find it useful at all. Ah, that could explain it. For folks *without* FR: helpful tips aplenty, a huge pantheon, new spell-like powers, rules for putting one's faith in a philosophy or a force of nature, a guide to building new divinities, and so on. For folks with FR . . . not so much. ;) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 19] Author : avenger2003 Date : 10-31-03 12:14 PM I'll take that advice to heart, imayb1. It seems that allowing my group freedom to pursue a character has its drawbacks. In the case of my "fixated" player, he seems to only read/recall the beneficial sections but seems to forget/gloss-over the rest. I'd hate to have to baby-sit every time he has a new character but unless he brings in the books to back-up his claims, I may have to. On the subject of the handbooks, did any one of them cover building strongholds? I vaguely remember TSR publishing one but it's fuzzy in my memory. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 20] Author : shadowelf Date : 10-31-03 03:06 PM We're really in need of splitting this thread in two. Until we do: I've re-read the Outlaw Kit. Bonus nonweapon proficiencies: Direction Sense, Fire-building. Nothing broken there. One thing I note: it suggests the Outlaw should have a strict code of honour eg Robin Hood only robbed the rich to give to the poor. You should singly or together work one out - DM always must give approval. I'd still like to know why he wants to be an Outlaw and what sort. Handbooks: I like the Priest's as well, and have used it to create specialty priests in Mystara where my campaign is set. I can see that in FR the book would be much less useful, as the actual kits are not all that great. IMO the kits worked best for fighters and thieves (and maybe dwarves), but the designers felt they had a template to follow for later books, which tended to look rushed. The only handbook not mentioned so far is the Psionics' which I only bought to complete the set as I don't use psionics. IMO the Elves' was where it went wrong - overpowered kits, mainly. The Druid's had great ideas eg "terrain druids", but most of the kits were unplayable as PCs (but great for NPCs - I'll introduce you to Eola, swamp druid, sometime). I think you are thinking of the Castle Guide, avenger, which was a blue book ie in the DM series. I have a copy somewhere. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 21] Author : Regularguy Date : 10-31-03 08:17 PM Originally posted by shadowelf One thing I note: it suggests the Outlaw should have a strict code of honour eg Robin Hood only robbed the rich to give to the poor. Well, now, like everything else about that kit, it wasn't quite that clear-cut. "In a campaign, the pirate or outlaw can belong to one of two orientations. Either he's a 'good guy,' and it is the law and the rulers who are evil, or he is a 'bad guy' and simply takes what he wants from those who have it" -- and, yes, the 'good guy' outlaw *tends* to have a code of conduct. That word comes up again and again: they "tend" to release innocents unharmed, "tend" to battle captured enemies in single combat, and only "tend" to have such a code in the first place -- and the Handbook goes on to explain what being a "bad guy" outlaw entails even more open-endedly. So, basically, if you're a good-aligned character, you tend to do good things, though that's not written in stone. That kit . . .the longer I look over this thread, the weirder it gets. I mean, you've got the Berserker kit laying out precisely how long it takes to become immune to exactly which spells, specifies which weapon proficiencies are off-limits at first level, and sets forth the reaction bonuses and penalties of assorted NPCs; you've got the Samurai kit with its six required proficiencies, its "once per day per level" ability to boost strength to a particular level, and its mathematical equation for experience progression under certain circumstances; and then you've got the Outlaw, which seems to be, "Uh, you're an outlaw." I like the Priest's as well, and have used it to create specialty priests in Mystara where my campaign is set. I can see that in FR the book would be much less useful, as the actual kits are not all that great. Man, the Prophet Priest is so overpowered, there's *repeated* warnings about how it could dominate the campaign if the DM isn't careful; the Barbarian Priest can let his Berserker teammates cue up in 1/10th the usual time, gets three slots worth of bonus proficiencies, and receives a broad reaction bonus; and, unlike the Outlaw Fighter, the Outlaw Priest gets a *very* specific (and welcome) big gun: "The main benefit of this kit is that the priest does not have any superiors. He takes orders from no superior religious authority." But to each their own, I suppose . . . -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 22] Author : shadowelf Date : 11-01-03 05:03 AM Funny you should say that as I am playing a Prophet Priest. However my DM takes very seriously the idea "if the DM doesn't want to give a prophecy then he doesn't have to." I haven't had a prophecy in ages. I have to rely on Augury and other divinations. On the barbarian priest, I agree with you, but it only happens in some campaigns - if the other players don't want to play berserkers you don't get a lot. And the Outlaw Priest - in a lot of campaigns I hear about the cleric does pretty much what he wants anyway, and the downside is that the DM can send along a gang of enforcers from his own religion to break up his religious meetings, in addition to the law being after him. Talk about giving the DM plot hooks. I think the Outlaw kit works out to: "Uh, you're an outlaw ... now go and work out some details." A boon to a roleplayer, if a bit of a cop-out. Perhaps there should have been a Complete Outlaw's Handbook? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 23] Author : Regularguy Date : 11-01-03 08:17 AM Originally posted by shadowelf Funny you should say that as I am playing a Prophet Priest. However my DM takes very seriously the idea "if the DM doesn't want to give a prophecy then he doesn't have to." I haven't had a prophecy in ages. Well, yeah. But (given your later comments), I take it you'd talked this over with your DM before you took the kit, agreed that the kit would be curtailed in that manner, and *still* thought, hey, that's a pretty cool benefit even if it only occurs in times of greatest need, or something. On the barbarian priest, I agree with you, but it only happens in some campaigns - if the other players don't want to play berserkers you don't get a lot. Yeah, but let's not get cause and effect switched around; if the other players are, say, on the fence about playing straight-up Berserkers, mentioning your plans for a Barbarian Priest could easily sway them into taking the kit. (Though, having said that, hasn't the Berserker kit always been pretty popular regardless? It's an incredible bit of powergaming with a hook for solid role-playing.) And the Outlaw Priest - in a lot of campaigns I hear about the cleric does pretty much what he wants anyway, There, we're going to have to agree to disagree. I've usually seen the cleric wind up as the one PC who has to obey a hierarchy, with the other PCs forced to work around an ever-shifting set of demands. I guess I could see it going the other way, but then they're more like, uh, wizards in armor, or something. Hmm. Ah, well. Back to the topic at hand; I'm sure looking forward to seeing what the Outlaw's Player tries to spring on his DM. :-) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 24] Author : imayb1 Date : 11-02-03 12:36 PM Originally posted by avenger2003 On the subject of the handbooks, did any one of them cover building strongholds? I vaguely remember TSR publishing one but it's fuzzy in my memory. The "Castle Guide", which is quite good. The Castle Guide has just about everything you need for building (castles, manors, towers, tunnels): costs, personnel, climates, cultures, sample lay-outs, seiges and evacuation, etc. Very useful stuff, IMO. Also, do not be fooled by the title of "Campaign Sourcebook and Catacomb Guide." It is mostly DM tips. It's not for builders of catacombs. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 25] Author : Dugald the Lexicographer Date : 11-05-03 10:36 PM On the subject of the handbooks, did any one of them cover building strongholds? I vaguely remember TSR publishing one but it's fuzzy in my memory. The Castle Guide is available for download on WotC site: DMGR2: Castle Guide (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/CASTLE.ZIP) As for your fixated player (and I've read the other thread on him as well), here's how I see it: If he wants to take any kit (or use any rule from any expansion rulebook), he MUST provide the DM with the text (bring the book, give you a copy, whatever) or it's simply not allowed. You can't allow players to bluff you into getting away with something. But if he DOES bring the book and he wants to use the kit, let him. So what if you don't see the benefit? If he's got a character concept, let him run with it. As several others have mentioned, it does give you some material to work with. And if it makes him happy without unbalancing your game, what's the harm? I find players will sometimes get so into a character concept that they'll make choices that make their character LESS POWERFUL just because it suits the concept. I like that! In that case, the players are realizing the story telling may be more important than min/maxing their combat stats. It takes the game into an entirely different realm. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 26] Author : Dugald the Lexicographer Date : 11-05-03 10:42 PM e.g. Once had a player take a 1st level mage who was a clean freak. The only spell he'd ever memorize was Unseen Servant, and would use it to clean up whenever there was a fight. He was hysterical! Not very potent, but managed to survive long enough to add some other spells to his repertoire, and eventually became a decent character. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 27] Author : avenger2003 Date : 11-06-03 09:23 AM Thanks Dugald, The problem with my "fixated" player is it not taking a kit, although prior notice would have been nice to have. The problem is that he tends to take a kit and pretty much milk it for the benefits while "forgeting" any hindrances, nevermind avoiding roleplaying of the kit. Ex: He took a Noble Warrior kit and latched onto the "snobbish and elitist" aspect and proceeded to alienate every NPC he met, including those of higher social rank. This would include demanding that the Captain of the Baron's guard help him find shelter! It may be just me and the rest of the group but isn't the saying "you catch more flies with honey, not vinegar" applicable? When asked about this, his defense was to mention that he was "roleplaying." He would later defend his actions by claiming that the Etiquette skill allowed him to avoid any repercusions because "his character would have known better." IMHO, I felt that this was essentially a cop-out to act like a total idiot and then not be held accountable for it. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 28] Author : Dugald the Lexicographer Date : 11-06-03 06:14 PM I'd agree, sounds like he's trying to milk the system! Not being in your exact shoes, I don't know that I have any good advice for you. If it were me, I'd come down on him in-game pretty hard with consequences for his actions. If he didn't specify use of the Etiquette NWP in the case where he bullied everyone, I would let him know he was not getting any benefit from it. Just 'cause you know how to do something doesn't mean you're in the habit of it, or automatically do it. But that's just one situation, and if I know players like him there'll always be another one. I don't know if you can take him aside and have a heart-to-heart with him, discuss the spirit of the game vs the letter of the game. If not, you (and the other players) should probably decide whether he's more of a liability than an asset, and if so, consider uninviting him (as diplomatically as possible). The good of the many outweighs the ego of the one. ;) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Downloaded from Wizards Community (http://forums.gleemax.com) at 05-10-08 08:20 AM.