* * * Wizards Community Thread * * * -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Thread : The Complete Psioncists Handbook Started at 11-03-03 05:45 PM by Gellion Visit at http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=126575 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 1] Author : Gellion Date : 11-03-03 05:45 PM Thread Title : The Complete Psioncists Handbook Well, i have never played 2E, but i have heard some about 2E Psionics. The general consensus seems to be that they were extremely overpowered. My question is, how were they overpowered? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 2] Author : Hiryu Date : 11-03-03 06:54 PM Actually they are not so overpowered unless you milticlass. THEN they are overkill, since they have plenty of mind affecting abilities–and some that don't affect minds, such as telequinesis and the like. My gripe with psionics and the reason I do not use them is because they are a HUGE pain in the ass. Basically, you have to introduce a whole other sets of character and combat rules for psionics alone. By this, I don't mean just a few changes or extra rules, there is a whole separate combat system for psionic abilities... as a matter of fact, there are two: one from the Psionics Handbook and another one from Player's Option-Skills & Powers and Dark Sun. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 3] Author : avenger2003 Date : 11-04-03 01:18 PM Psionics? Boy was that a headache(pun intended)! It was fairly overkill if a PC Psionicist used mental attack modes on non-psionics and then waded into melee with Adrenalin Control! I think TSR would have been better off not releasing this particular book until much more beta-testing was done. After watching a mid-level Psionicist cruise through an adventure almost single-handed was the last straw for me. Keep in mind, the group at that time consisted of 6 players, 5 of which never got to act most of the time due to the mental attacks going off quicker than they could move! Other than that, I'm sure it has a place in the D&D world but I wouldn't use it until I'd gone through every last inch of that book and re-worked the system. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 4] Author : Thailfi Date : 11-04-03 01:39 PM Psionics were not so bad once you gave saving throws to some of the mental abilities that didn't mention them. Multiclass psions tended to have a good bit of power, but so did every other multiclass. Fighter/psions were not better than fighter/magic-users. A fighter with mirror image and stoneskin was better than a fighter with adrenaline control and biofeedback. The best advantage to a fighter/psychometabolic psion was that you only needed two good scores. Most of the metabolic disciplines used constituion for power checks. I have a pretty darn good Dark Sun psion/thief character. Backstab/timeshift/backstab/timeshift/backstab can get lethal. God forbid you bring in the powers listed in the Will and the Way supplement. One of our players got it and we limited the abilities to Dark Sun characters since they were so good. Dimension blade is just wrong and it makes my psion/thief even better. We banned the time travel science outright. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 5] Author : avenger2003 Date : 11-04-03 02:20 PM Saving throws were only applicable to some of the psionic powers. The mental attacks were a different story, try resisting a Contact attempt with a non-psionicist. You were done even before you started. Your only real hope was that the psionicist failed their power check. An alternative defense suggested by the book was to concentrate entirely on resisting the intruwsion (basically making you a sitting duck). Granted, the main advantage that I could see for a Psionicist was total self-reliance. Their powers didn't depend on an outside source to work and recovering their Inner Strength Points was fairly constant. The writer(s) of this book, in my opinion, did not balance it enough to incorporate it into the game. Ultimately, it is the DM who must arbitrate what works in their campaign. From personal experience, avoid anything that players bring to you because "it sounds cool to use" until you've had ample time to review it. (one of my numerous rookie DM mistakes) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 6] Author : Thailfi Date : 11-04-03 03:55 PM We just laughed when we got to the section on telepathic abilities. We knew you had to contact first and then try the ability, so you had to make two checks over two rounds, but it was absolutely rediculous to have abilities that a psionicist could get at first level that got no saving throw. Even a mindflayer blast gets a save, so we said everything in the telepathic section (with the exception of contact) allowed the victim a saving throw and things worked out fine. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 7] Author : DustOfSnow Date : 11-04-03 08:11 PM Thread Title : Psionics I loved the 2ed Psionic handbook, though it took a bit of re-reading to fully understand it all. Psionics brought a great twist to the game, especially when I had really high level PCs that thought they could destroy everything. One of my favorite NPC's, an evil Psionicist King used one of the powers where you get to switch personalities or bodies or something, I forget. The PC's were so happy to had finally killed him, only to realize that he was still alive and causing trouble. Alot of the powers didn't have saving throws, that why they were difficult to control, but we just created a way to save against psionics and there you go. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 8] Author : Borrowed Thyme Date : 11-04-03 10:36 PM What do you have them save against? I've only ever seen psionics used in a campaign, although I've got the book, I'm reserving it for future major NPCs at the moment. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 9] Author : imayb1 Date : 11-05-03 08:06 AM I always used save vs. spell + any bonuses vs. mind-affecting spells (willpower). I also allowed spells to counter psionics, or else the psions would have a field day... I extended protection spells (like bless and aid) to cover psionic powers. IMO, one of the biggest problems with the introduction of psionics was that the game had no counter-balances to those powers... besides the even more overpowered psionic monsters. It's the same as letting loose a non-native predator where it has no natural enemies and no checks against it ravishing the food chain. If the psionics become ridiculous, all you have to do is have a psionic monster appear, eat the psionic PC, and leave. :rolleyes: While not recomended for every case, there are times when drastic measures become necessary. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 10] Author : imayb1 Date : 11-05-03 08:06 AM I always used save vs. spell + any bonuses vs. mind-affecting spells (willpower). I also allowed spells to counter psionics, or else the psions would have a field day... I extended protection spells (like bless and aid) to cover psionic powers. IMO, one of the biggest problems with the introduction of psionics was that the game had no counter-balances to those powers... besides the even more overpowered psionic monsters. It's the same as letting loose a non-native predator where it has no natural enemies and no checks against it ravishing the food chain. If the psionics become ridiculous, all you have to do is have a psionic monster appear, eat the psionic PC, and leave. :rolleyes: While not recomended for every case, there are times when drastic measures become necessary. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 11] Author : Thailfi Date : 11-05-03 08:27 AM We gave a save vs. spells with all the modifiers including magical protection and wisdom. We did not allow magic resistance to work against psionics and we let psionic abilities be used on all planes of existance without restriction. Even adding the saves psionics had some advantages over spell casting. No memorization, pretty fast psionic strength point recovery, you didn't even need to rest to recover abilities, no verbal components, no material components, no somatic components, you could even use your abilities when under the influence of a hold person spell, extremely fast cast rate on all abilities. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 12] Author : Sarnack Matai' Date : 11-14-03 10:28 PM (chuckle) I could never find a DM that would allow psionics (myself included). Too darn much to keep track of, especially in combat situations. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 13] Author : The WarOverlord Date : 11-30-03 07:22 AM Actually probably just Overcomplicated and "Over powered" is just an excuse. :D I am a lover of the 2nd addition Psionist and the Classical Bard. :D There was a section on sticking the "powers" and their stats in relation to the Character on index cards discussed in the book and at the start of every round all Psionist would throw down their cards and the cards would be flipped at the same time which makes it kinda like those "Card Games" that are so popular recently. There must be some misunderstanding concerning the Telpathic "Sciences" and "Devotions" being "instant effect" cause every creature that has Psionic potential is considered a "close mind" so contact is always the "first attack" with Telepathy attack and it takes 3 successful "contact" attacks to breech a "Closed mind"...not counting any Psionic defenses that might be present that can add "tangents" (Intellect fortress, Tower of Iron will, etc). Of course once you made "Contact" it does not mean that any effect you want to put on that "Breeched mind" will automatically work as there is still the targets willpower to overcome as the defeated target knows that it's mind has been breach and could be trying to "Eject" or get out of range or sight (Contact Distance and Line of sight limitations), not to mention trying to make "Contact" or perhaps using more devastating Psionic powers or trying to close in to do physical combat and take off your head for getting into his/her head (Psionic Combat is independent from other turn-based actions) Even non-Psionist that know what is happening can resist contact and you still have to overcome their willpower with each additional thing you want to try to do to them, and them most likely closing in to rip your head off within the same round. Contacting an "insane" mind can cause more harm than good, and lower intelligence or trying to make "Contact" across species lines makes "contact" less and less likely Plus, unlike a Memorized spell of a wizard or a Prayed for Spell of a priest that will always work under most conditions short of being hit mid-casting, in a "Silenced area, etc. A Psionist must first "Will it to happen" and make his/her "power check" before the "effect" can even happen (Think of it like trying to take a dump when constipated) and while, yes, the powers of Psionist might seem "powerful" for 1st level, you must remember that the power score of a desired "Science" or "Devotion" can be so low at 1st level (and then increases as you level up) that more often then not the 1st level Psionists may give himself/herself a headache or poop his/her pants trying to "make something happen" but the desired effect won't come about :rolleyes: What I am telling you is not a "Modified version" as I am posting this with my Psionics handbook right next to me. Good example: My 1st level Character's Wisdom is 11. I want to use the Disintegrate Science which is Wis -4 for the Power check which will make my Character's power score at 1st level a 7. So rolling a 1d20 die my character has to roll a 7 or less in order for him to try to "Disintegrate" someone (And of course as nobody "wants to die" the effect must overcome the target's willpower to live (vs. Death magic to be more specific). Oh and lets not forget that if the die hits 20 that my character must save v.s. Death magic or he/she just disintegrated himself/herself which is much worse then a mere headache :rolleyes: At second Level my Character could make that power score an 8 (Assuming I want to spend 1 point of the points gained on this existing Science v.s. learning a new one), at 3rd level a 9, and so on and so forth but the "failure rate" is worse than 50% at level 3 so I have to chuckle when people say that Psionists are "too powerful". I mean a 3rd level Wizard or Cleric that couldn't get their spells to work 1/2 the time would be considered "useless" :rolleyes: -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 14] Author : DM Zoc Date : 11-30-03 07:47 AM Of course, a psionicist would choose powerful abilities related to strength of stat; a low-mid Wisdom character would choose the overpowered ability linked to whichever stat was highest. Teleport at first level? It might not get you out of a combat, but you could certainly get yourself out of prison. Or there's my personal favorite, Molecular Agitation (minor inconvenience on a critical failure, but it gives you something to do every round; as a bonus, it disrupts casters every turn). I also consider the trade-off vs. spells to be highly favorable towards the psionicist. While the wizard has few spells per day and must select them ahead of time, the psionicist has unlimited access to all abilities, and can use them as long as he/she wants (provided sufficient PSPs). Even better, since a psionicist can fail, it gives him/her something to do next round, while a wizard is often just left standing around with no real options (short of running away, which isn't good for inter-party relations). -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 15] Author : The WarOverlord Date : 11-30-03 09:31 PM Originally posted by DM Zoc Of course, a psionicist would choose powerful abilities related to strength of stat; a low-mid Wisdom character would choose the overpowered ability linked to whichever stat was highest. Teleport at first level? It might not get you out of a combat, but you could certainly get yourself out of prison. Or there's my personal favorite, Molecular Agitation (minor inconvenience on a critical failure, but it gives you something to do every round; as a bonus, it disrupts casters every turn). I also consider the trade-off vs. spells to be highly favorable toward the psionicist. While the wizard has few spells per day and must select them ahead of time, the psionicist has unlimited access to all abilities, and can use them as long as he/she wants (provided sufficient PSPs). Even better, since a psionicist can fail, it gives him/her something to do next round, while a wizard is often just left standing around with no real options (short of running away, which isn't good for inter-party relations). As someone that played a Psionist I never really looked to much at what would give me the best power check, I was more interested in in the "cool powers" :angel: Teleport?. Yes but starting with 1 Science and 4 devotion in the same Discipline your character is mostly an "escape artist" anyway as there is nothing really useful in the Psyhchoportation devotions as you used up your Science on Teleport other than more Traveling" effects and "time/Space Anchor" to prevent travel :rolleyes: Molecular Agitation is a Psychokinetic devotion so if your 1st level "Escape artist" can do this to then the reason you have a "Munchkin" is because you are breaking the Same Discipline rule at 1st level if you have that devotion before level 3 when your character can choose the Gains the ability to learn from a new Discipline and and take the Psychokinetic Discipline as the next learnable from Discipline and, only then, learn the desired Science or devotion in that Discipline ;) It wouldn't be until level 6 that you can choose from a 3rd Discipline, then 10th before an other and then 14th and 18th respectively. Since everyones favorite "Psionic powers" tend to be Telepathic, Psychoportive,Metabolic,and telekinetic (Spanning 4 Disciplines) only a 10th level Psionist could do tricks from all those Disciplines :rolleyes: My guess is that people that think that Psionists are "too powerful" aren't following all the restrictions in the book that are all in there in "black and white" either cause they didn't understand the book which does read a little like "stereo Instructions" or they laxed the rules on purpose and then assumed their "Munchkins" which resulted was the normal state of most Psionists :D Yeah, wizards under the Xxper day rule can be a hassle but there is the "regenerating mana system" which is more popular in Ultimo and in Baulder's Gate: Dark Alliance and Warcraft which is basically what the PSP is a rip off of. Just switch your Wizard to the "Mana" system following the guidelines of the PSP calculations and then know that mana cost is 2x level (2 mana first level, 4 mana 2nd level, 18 mana 9th level) and spells like Lighting Bolt's and Burning hands' damage can be increased by expending extra mana. But if you can't or don't wanna use the "Mana" system for your wizard, they are called wands, scrolls, and staves and I suggest your Xxper day mage consider in investing in, at least, a wand of missiles and wand of fire so he/she need not twiddle his/her thumbs or run away :angel: -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 16] Author : DM Zoc Date : 11-30-03 10:22 PM "But if you can't or don't wanna use the "Mana" system for your wizard, they are called wands, scrolls, and staves and I suggest your Xxper day mage consider in investing in, at least, a wand of missiles and wand of fire so he/she need not twiddle his/her thumbs or run away" Have you seen the rules for making magical items? To say the least, it is prohibitive to try before name rank. And though it is true that early Psions only have one or two useful abilities, those abilities can be as powerful as 7th level wizard spells. It's kind of like the Sorcerer from 3rd edition; not many different spells, but you can use them pretty much without restriction (except that Psions can start with one high level spell). -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 17] Author : The WarOverlord Date : 12-01-03 05:00 AM Originally posted by DM Zoc Have you seen the rules for making magical items? To say the least, it is prohibitive to try before name rank. Make? Usually stumbled across a Necklace of Missiles or a Wand of lightning or even a fire wand way before the end of Pool of Radiance. In "Cure of the Azure Bonds" you can walk right into a magic shop and buy what you need. I mean, yeah if you are running a low magic campaign totally opposite of what the FR are then you may have to make everything but My characters never bothered to learn how to make stuff cause we had a tendency to "hunt" mages specifically in hopes of capturing magical booty, and used to pretty much haul everything that could fetch a price so when we had to buy magic, we could :angel: A bag of holding with a "King's ransom" in it from collecting armor,weapons,etc and selling them at the shops one piece at a time and even if "worthless" to the character. I mean my characters made their fortune by collecting all the sword, collecting all the leather helms, then finding a store to sell it for 1 gp here 5 gold piece their :D But in any case we are talking about why people think 2nd Ed Psionics are "Over powered" and as a supporter that played them correctly I really don't think it is so as the "frustration" of failing to cause the effect most of the time, and the Discipline limitations, (I wouldn't recommend being a 1st level Psionist choosing Psychoportive as Primary discipline) does balance out the Character. In fact most of the time my Psionist just went toe to toe if it was only 1 or to foes...using "Control body" if it was a whole gang of foes to make them take out each other while I still would engage toe to toe after the "Psionic Combat" at the beginning of the round. Just as the "Need of Magic" and "Containment limitations/penalties " make being a Spellfire User not "Overpowered". I mean you are useless unless you are first near magic being cast, magic items. or a Dragon breath blast and it hurts to store magic so the Spellfire wielder doesn't store magic unless they really really have to :D -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 18] Author : DM Zoc Date : 12-01-03 05:23 AM Originally posted by The WarOverlord Make? A bag of holding with a "King's ransom" in it... I suppose that's the difference; in any campaign I've been in, a bag of holding would be a King's ransom. I suppose when you have enough magical items that you can just fire off charges willy-nilly, mages are a lot more powerful (and psionicists less powerful in contrast). -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 19] Author : Mock26 Date : 12-14-03 11:35 PM I played a dwarven psionicist/fighter. Her preferred usage was to cast adrenalin control during the first round of combat (normally 18/36), and boost her strength and wade in using paired cesti. She dumped a number of porf. slots into punching. She was a lot of fun! My DM also allowed a saving throw vs. spells against contact, which more than balanced out mental combat against non-psionicists. Some areas where it could be a bit overpowered was ectoplasmic force and teleport, both of which could be taken at low levels. However, at these low levels your total number of points available was small, so your range was limited. Take care and have a great day.... ciao, john. PS I loved to cast Dimension Door in front of a moving enemy (required a to-hit roll) and have the other door 60' up in the air! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 20] Author : ironfang Date : 12-15-03 08:35 PM WarOverlord I have to give you (and I am assuming your DM as well) props for figuring out how to properly and smoothly impliment psionics into your AD&D campaign. I probably have not done as good of a job as you have in its implimentation, but I do agree that psionics are not overly powerful or unballancing as it is very easy to expend alot of PSP's in a short amount of time. In my campaign there is only one 10th level Psionicist, and he is a very formidable opponent, yet no more formidable than an illithid or other psionic creatures if played properly. If you read through the MM, you will see a large assortment of creatures with psionic powers and to simply not acknowledge psionics really reduces the repetior of creatures to spice up your campaigns as a DM. If implimented early on in a campaign, players can learn to handle psionic creatures as readily as they have learned to cope with magic using creatures (such early using magic creatures such as Satyrs, Orc Shamans, etc.). Psionic creatures can definantly add some spice to the game. Thanks for the insight WarOverlord Ironfang -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 21] Author : Hoondatha Date : 12-15-03 10:47 PM I think the reason a lot of people think psionics can be too powerful is the telepathic discipline. All the others, while nifty, are fairly balanced IMO. Telepathy, however, is completely different, because as written in the book, there's no saving throw. A third level psionicist (and we're talking 2e here, so no Psions) can dominate a twentieth level fighter. Not for very long, sure, but if the psionicist makes their roles, there's not a darn thing the fighter can do about it. And if the mindbender is smart, the fighter might not even know who did it. I also think that, while a psionicist is perhaps overpowered in a low-level party, it starts to fade as levels rise (telepathy notwithstanding). Sure, they can get disintegrate and teleport, high level spells, but they don't have something akin to fireball. Toe to toe, a wizard will win once they start getting third and fourth level spells. But if the psionicist is played well, then you have a VERY dangerous opponent. Especially with some of the more interesting powers we have from Dark Sun... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 22] Author : migo Date : 12-19-03 03:55 AM I never had any problems with Psionics. The biggest advantage was the ability to chose powers on the fly instead of memorizing them. The most powerful class, despite most people shelving them was the Cleric. -Fast advancement, only the Thief and Bard was slightly faster. (Psionicist in contrast advanced only slightly faster than a Ranger/Paladin). -Ability to use all armor. (Psionicist suffered major penalties using anything better than hide armor). -Second best THAC0 table. Sure, it sucked for the first 3 levels, but after that it started taking off. -Access to a lot of good weapons, the Horseman's Flail was a great weapon, even better than the longsword. Combine a Horseman's Flail with a large Shield and Splint Mail armor and you had a character that could hang with any 1st level fighter. -Access to a lot of spells, a cleric with high wisdom could start out with 5 spells/day at 1st level. Much better than the Mage and definitely on par with the Psionicist. -Healing spells. I know nobody liked being the walking first aid station, but healing spells made the cleric a very self sufficient class. -Support spells, cast on themselves, they were deffinitely on par with a fighter. -Raise Dead/Resurrection. That's arguably one of the most powerful abilities in the game, only matched by the Mage's Wish spell. The Psionicists had nothing to match. -Turning undead. The only class that could easilly deal with a whole bunch of enemies at the same time for an unlimited number of times. It's not that hard to make a Human cleric, using the 4d6 drop the lowest method with at least 16 wisdom (bringing a 10% XP bonus to the already fast advancement), that could cast 3 spells/day at 1st level, and was just as competent as a Fighter, with a couple less HP. And that was without using Specialty Clerics, Players Option or the Complete Cleric's Handbook. Make a Specialty Priest of War or Magic (gaining the ability to cast Wizards spells without the Armor restriction) and you had a real force to be reckoned with. Psionicists overpowered.... BAH! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 23] Author : DM Zoc Date : 12-19-03 05:16 AM Of course, it goes without saying that Clerics are by far the most overpowered class (until someone mentions the Crusader). Of course, even a Cleric doesn't have as great a chance of insta-killing a Great Wyrm at 1st level. I would actually love to play a Cleric sometime, if only they'd get rid of all that religious stuff. I've created my fair share of healer mages (d4 HP, wizard THAC0, wizard weapons/armor, healing and necromancy spells only), but it's just painful to play a Cleric. I've also had normal Wizards who have researched Channel Positive Energy Plane type spells. I've also tried the paladin (devoted to self-righteousness), weird races with natural healing abilities, and even a rogue with healing proficiency. Next time, I think I'll try the Healer class from Sages & Specialists. Optional restrictions for Clerics include, not being able to dual-class out of one (I believe there was something like this in earlier editions), and not being able to multi-class as one (a deity won't grant power to someone who isn't fully devout). Lastly, clerics of the gods of theivery, magic, and fighting, are actually Theives, Wizards, and Warriors, who lead the church but gain no special powers. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 24] Author : Hoondatha Date : 12-19-03 11:27 PM Ah, but how does your cleric deal with psionic domination? They have no mental defenses, no way of striking back or even keeping the guy out. Suddenly you're not in control of your character, the psionicist is. No saving throw, no resistence, no chance. Granted, cleric is a powerful class. It beats the wizard for number of spells and the psionicist for hit points and armor. But there are a few problems with it. A wizard can be a devoted battle tank, and no one cares (evoker/conjuration/alteration specialists particularly). They can devote most or all of their spells to battle. A cleric can't. They ARE the healer, the one and only, in the party. My group has a fighter, a ranger, a monk, an evoker (me), and a priest. The priest, of us all, does the least, because he's busy keeping everyone else alive. Many times I've heard the player say, "I'm going to... darn, he's down. Ok, heal." So of those 3 1st level spells at 1st level, what do you bet they're all Cure Light Wounds? He might be theoretically powerful, but if you want to keep everyone else alive you're going to be spending a lot of your time doing nothign but healing. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 25] Author : The WarOverlord Date : 12-20-03 01:03 AM Originally posted by Hoondatha Ah, but how does your cleric deal with psionic domination? They have no mental defenses, no way of striking back or even keeping the guy out. Suddenly you're not in control of your character, the Psionist is. No saving throw, no Resistance, no chance. Granted, cleric is a powerful class. It beats the wizard for number of spells and the Psionist for hit points and armor. But there are a few problems with it. A wizard can be a devoted battle tank, and no one cares (evoker/conjuration/alteration specialists particularly). They can devote most or all of their spells to battle. A cleric can't. They ARE the healer, the one and only, in the party. My group has a fighter, a ranger, a monk, an evoker (me), and a priest. The priest, of us all, does the least, because he's busy keeping everyone else alive. Many times I've heard the player say, "I'm going to... darn, he's down. Ok, heal." So of those 3 1st level spells at 1st level, what do you bet they're all Cure Light Wounds? He might be theoretically powerful, but if you want to keep everyone else alive you're going to be spending a lot of your time doing nothign but healing. Actually "Protection from Evil" always worked as a defense against 2nd edition Psionics as well as spells such as Globe of invulnerability, resilient Sphere, and Mind Blank. I never bothered with 3rd addition Psionics but it is my understanding that because it is magic based it should still be wardable with the "Protection from Evil" spell and the ones mentioned before as well as now dispellable by a dispel magic cast as a counter spell. :rolleyes: -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 26] Author : imayb1 Date : 12-20-03 01:47 AM I would actually love to play a Cleric sometime, if only they'd get rid of all that religious stuff. :rofl: I know exactly what you mean, DM Zoc! There are ways around it... sort of. If you use a proliferation of Pantheons (one for each race/culture) you can generally find a concept to agree with. From there, you just take the most self-sufficient, self-reliant, least-evangelical sort of priest you can get away with... :D BTW: I agree that **hands down** the cleric or priest is the most powerful [standard] character class. It is the most well-rounded, too. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 27] Author : migo Date : 12-20-03 02:02 PM So of those 3 1st level spells at 1st level, what do you bet they're all Cure Light Wounds? He might be theoretically powerful, but if you want to keep everyone else alive you're going to be spending a lot of your time doing nothign but healing. At lower levels even 1 cure light wounds is much more powerful than 1 magic missile. At higher levels, you have more spell options anyway. You also don't need a huge selection of offensive spells, just a few of them. Lvl 1: Command (Arguably the most powerful 1st level offensive spell, and is usable for other purposes as well). Entangle Magical Stone (not quite as good as MM, but still deals damage). Shillelagh Cause Light Wounds Cause Fear Lvl 2: Charm Person or Mammal (for gaining an extra fighter) Dust Devil Fire Trap Heat Metal Flame Blade Badberry (for less obvious assault) Produce Flame Silence 15' Radius Spiritual Hammer Lvl 3: Call Lightning Cause Blindness/Deafness Cause Disease Bestow Curse Pyrotechnics Summon Insects Lvl 4: Annimal Summoning 1 Call Woodland Beings Control Temperature 10' Radius Cause Serious Wounds Giant Insect Cause Poison Sticks to Snakes Lvl 5: Animal Summoning II Animal Growth Control Winds Cause Critical Wounds Flame Strike Insect Plague *Slay Living* Wall of Fire Lvl 6: Animal Summoning III Conjure Fire Elemental Fire Seeds Harm Lvl 7: Confusion Control Weather Earthquake Creeping Doom Fire Storm Holy/Unholy Word Opposite of Regenerate Opposite of Resurrection Sunray Symbol Some aren't directly offensive, but it certainly is possible to make a Priest battle tank. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 28] Author : Sildatorak Date : 12-20-03 06:02 PM The reversed versions of Regenerate and Ressurection are Wither are poor spells for combat. They take 3 rounds for Wither and 10 for Destruction, and both require a touch. The other offensive spells are not so bad, though. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 29] Author : dndgameupdate1 Date : 09-10-04 05:52 AM Thread Title : 2E Psionics I use three books, CPH, TWatW, and DK. Only those three. I have found some psionic powers should allow a saving throw, those that can harm without recourse. I do not put 'contact' in that category becaue 'contact' is not what does the actual damage. One player likes to use 'compact' and crush his enemies in their armor. I gave the enemies a saving throw. If they failed the save, they take 1d20 pts of damage and the armor falls off as it compacts (this goes back to an old Sage advice column about not allowing things to be crushed via spell mis use). If they make their saving throw (vs death magic) the armor pops off without causing any damage. This applies to necklaces, belts, whatever. He also tried the 'dimension door' trick mentioned above. This is not allowed because one door always opens in front of the psionicist (again from an old Sage advice column). The other door could be put in front of the enemy I suppose but what good would that do? He would then be right in front of the psionicist. This is a case where the power (dimension door) is not being used as it was written, and Sage advice frowns on using spells (or powers) in manner they were not intended for. Now I can hear everyone "What about creativity?" "What about coming up with new ways to use spells and powers?" All I can say is, rules lawyers will ever be, and the DM must make judgements based on what is written with some good old common sense. Besides, a good DM knows how to tell a story and if a player feels they need to quote rules or use things in a way not described in black and white then that player needs to realize that D&D is a zero sum game and the non written use of said power will not ultimately ruin the game or make him lose. If the player "loses" then he should lose because he couldn't role play, not because he couldn't fudge the rules. That's just my opinion anyway. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Downloaded from Wizards Community (http://forums.gleemax.com) at 05-10-08 08:19 AM.