I'm posting here my thoughts about Zendrolion's idea about bringing the M-Mesopotamic civilizations to the Alphatian Sea region. I'm also including here some thoughts, based on GP's work, about the tanagoro peoples and their migrations (I'm assuming here that modern Tangor speak M-Nilo-Saharian languages; M-Bantu languages are spoken in Yavdlom and by the Simbastas (M-Swahili); the Kalimari have a M-Khoisan language; and the Nuari is one of the many peoples that speak M-Austronesian languages).
First of all, I'd like to say again that Adrian Mattias' work for the Yezchamenid land is great and that's why I'm attempting to bring most of it to the past of Mystara, instead of completely ignoring it or most of it.
Here's a possible equivalence table for the Yezchamenid provinces and RW peoples:
o Darsia: Persia
o Uvaraz: Persia (southern)
o Zrakan: Persia (northern)
o Dradze: Persia (eastern)
o Pazarkan: Persia (Pegataurs)
o Hattas: Hittite
o Yivja: Phoenicia
o Mebirush: Babylonia
o Chura: Assyria
o Midan: Media
o Draya: Bedouins
Using this and the Pitchans, a oltec people that gave origin to some of the peoples of Yezchamenid, I wrote this timeline and another table of equivalences, for the peoples that appear at the timeline and the provinces of Yezchamenid at 1000BC.
TIMELINE:
c. 8000 BC: Orimulian civilization destroyed by Y’hog Carnifex. The survivors carry the Orimul culture to the west (Serpent Peninsula *1) and east (Oceania), while those who stays are sent back to the Stone Age. The Orimul culture splits.
c. 5000 BC: First tanagoro migrational wave *2; they leave “old Tangor” (modern Jen) region, arriving at Oceania and Cestian Peninsula *3. Some orimulian living in Oceania (east-late-Orimul civilization) migrate to the empty Esterhold (Bellissaria, Thothia and the Alatians are already inhabited by Asyidhi tribes; Minaea is inhabited by Aharian tribes). Gradually they’ll create their own distinct culture, becoming the Pitchans.
c. 3000 BC: GRoF: Pitchan civilization is destroyed by invading Olthar tribes, the Proto-Jennites. Some pitchans joined the Proto-Jennites, while others migrated to southwest Esterhold and Bellissaria; they become the Sagur civilization.
c. 2500 BC: Asyidhi tribes that migrated to the lands that will be known in the future as Taymor. There they start a new civilization.
The Adakkian (Asyidhi) civilization of Bellissaria interacts with the Sagur; they eventually fuse, forming the Mebirush (Esterhold) and Chura (Bellissaria) civilizations.
Some Aharian tribes of Minaea (Hattan) are gradually pushed into southeast Bellissaria by the Proto-Jennite, while others (Dars and Midan) adopt their lifestyle.
Thelles (Aharian) people of southwest Alphatia starts settling the Isle of Dawn.
Yavi-Tanagoro tribes migrate to the western part of north Davania. Primitive descendents of the Orimul are displaced by these tanagoro, settling at the Isle of Dread.
c. 2250 BC: The Durkuri minotaur people conquest Mebirush, but adopt the local culture. Chura become a vassal land of the Durkuri-Mebirush nation.
Height of the Taymoran power; taymoran city-states dot the southeastern coast of Brun. Taymoran sailors found trade outposts at northeast Ochalea, the Alatians, Pearl Islands and the empty south Bellissaria, allowing them to trade with all civilizations of the Alphatian Sea and Tangor Bay. Taymoran traders bring mercenary lupins to Ochalea and tanagoro to south Bellissaria to garrison the fortified outposts. The Pearl Isalnds are already inhabited by rakastas.
Yavi-Tanagoro tribes arrive at the Serpent Peninsula, where they met the Sheyallia elves. There, they create the original Yavdlom civilization.
(White = Mebirush; Red = Chura; Purple = Hattas; Yellow = Taymora; Blue = Thelles)
c. 2000 BC: The Hattan cities of southeast Bellissaria fights against Mebirush imperialism (with limited help of Taymor). Chura becomes a battleground.
Thelles biremes and triremes, copied from the taymorans, fight for the trade outposts of the Alatians.
Azcan and Asidhi tribes living northeast of Taymor become the Nithian civilization.
c. 1750 BC: Fall of Taymora and the Glantri Catastrophe.
The Churans, after years of suffering from the Mebirush/Hattan war, finally becomes independent fro both and even conquering them, forming the Churan Empire. The resentful Churans razes the capitol of the Mebirush; using a magical gate, many flee to northeast Alphatia, where they found Ambur, while the auroch minutaus use it to arrive at the Orc’s Head Peninsula, becoming the winged Enduk and founding Nimmur.
c. 1500 BC: Yezchamenid Empire: One of the tribes of Skothar, the Dars, enters Bellissaria, conquering all Churan Empire (including the Hattans and Mebirush). They also conquer the old taymoran colonies: south Bellissaria (Yivj,) the Pearl Islands, the Alatians and Thothia.
Displaced after the Dars conquests, Thelles (Traldar) tribes looking somewhere to settle are invited by Nithia to do so at Karameikos. Later, other Thelles tribes do the same at Darokin and Thyatis (Doulakki).
Dars invite another nomadic tribe of Skothar, the Midans, to rule part of Chura as long as they're able to put down any revolt.
c. 1000 BC: The Alphatian Landfall. Alphatians conquer easily all Alphatia from the Yanifey tribes. The Thelles of Greenspur and Ambur are also conquered.
The Yezchamenid Empire is destroyed by the alphatian forces, taking all Bellissaria, the Alatians and Esterhold. Some tanagoro living in south Bellissaria migrate to the Pearl Island, adopting the rakastan language. The, however, can’t avoid being also conquered by Alphatia.
Minoides and a group of minotaurs fleeing from Nimmur return to the ruins of the capitol of Mebirush through the magical gate. Some of them work to Alphatia as mercenaries.
Notes:
*1 – By now, the land bridge linking Brun and Davania through the Serpent Peninsula and Thanegia Island is no more, avoiding that Y’hog Carnifex enter Brun, going after the last Orimul city-states.
*2 – It may be actually the second wave, especially if the Kalimari (M-Khoisan) people are already living at the Serpent Peninsula.
*3 – It’s possible that Kum-rah was a tanagoro shaman of Ka that lived in Cestia. His direct descendents (Cave Rakasta, Simbasta, etc) still speaks the language Kum-rah once spoke (M-Swahili), related to the modern tanagoro languages of Yavdlom (M-Bantu); the rakastas that descend from Ba-steh (Rakastodon Fatalis, Sherkastas, etc) speak an unrelated language (M-Austronesian). Other peoples also adopted variations of this original rakastan language, like the Nuari (and, from them, the Stonecarving civilization of Colima (Isle of Dread; M-Rapa Nui), which originated the modern Makai after the Stonecarvers fled from the Kopru) and the modern Cestians (assuming that’s the M-Madagascar).
Equivalences:
o Orimul: Olmecs (Wiki)
o Pitchans: Olmec-Sumerian bridge
o Sagur: Sumerians (Wiki)
o Adakkians: Akkadians (Wiki) [Pehaps ancestrals of the Varellyans and the name “Adakkian Sound” comes from them?]
o Mebirush: Babylonia (Wiki) [also Ambur and Nimmur]
o Chura: Assyria (Wiki)
o Durkuri: Kassite auroch minotaurs (Wiki)
o Hattas: Hittites (Wiki)
o Taymora: Phoenicia (Wiki) [also Yivja]
o Dars: Persians (Wiki)
o Midan: Medians (Wiki)
o Jennite: Scythia (Wiki) [they may have some Dar/Midan blood as well, helping them to be something closer to RW Scythians]
o Thelles: Mycenaean Greeks (Wiki)
o Cypri: Minoan (Wiki)
o Alphatian (original): Atlantean (Wiki)
(Another useful linkfor getting the feeling of Yezchamenid; And another onefor the whole Sea of Alphatia ;))
Yezchamenid Provinces:
o Darsi: East Esterhold
o Uvaraz: Northwest Esterhold
o Zrakan: Central Esterhold
o Mebirush: Southwest Esterhold
o Dradze: Minaea (some Jennite)
o Midan: Dawnrim [Bellissaria] (originally part of Chura)
o Chura: Notrion, Meriander [Bellissaria]
o Hattas: Horken, Lagrius [Bellissaria], plus Spearpoint peninsula
o Yivja: Surshield [Bellissaria], except for Spearpoint peninsula
o Draya: Thothia (Asyidhi tribes)
o Pazarkan: Alatians (no pegataurs, Asyidhi tribes and Thelles/Taymoran colonies instead)
I took the pegataurs out of Yezchamenid since they should appear only after 800 BC (mix of Shyie elves and pegasus)
BTW, those maps comes from one of Thibault Sarlat's maps
I can´t wait for read this Article Attila! it will be very important for the researchers pcs of my campaign in Alphatia
:DHavard
Impressive work! I have to admit it is kind of hard to follow as it introduces so many elements that I am not familiar with (I should really read up on the Yezchamenid)
Yes, that's something worth reading;)
The timeline I made don't fit very well with Adrian's, and I gave different origins for some of the peoples, but all the rest should work nicely. The zatrapies' descriptions are still valid (but I'd reverse Mebirush as being the most ancient and Chura as being the most prosperous for farming). BTW, I guess this means that we originally had a Hivebrood colony at that island northwest of Esterhold.
About those Pegataurs, perhaps they could be replaced by another race/creature?
Yes, that could be as well.
Pehaps centaurs with a jennite-like culture?
BTW, this problem with the pegataus is present even at Adrian's original work, as he placed them at the AotI in 1150 BC, while they were created only after 800 BC. OTOH, I agree that it's a good place for pegataurs, since winged races are somewhat attracted to there (while others actually gains wings for going at there).
WWWWWWWWWWOOOOWWW \o/
I can´t wait for read this Article Attila! it will be very important for the researchers pcs of my campaign in Alphatia
Hehe :D
BTW, I just added the links with some pictures for each people, to help to underestand them, as you asked
The only thing I don't particularly like are long oceanic migrations with no apparent and dire cause. I don't mind explorers doing this but massive migrations just don't sound reasonable to me and that is one thing I'm avoiding while developing my own interpretation of Mystaran history.
Canon sources hint that Oltecs were more skilled at water travel then others but trans-oceanic travel, this early in Mystara's history, is just too deadly. For instance, where you have Oltecs travel to Oceania and then to Esterhold.
I'm envisioning the Oltec tribes as being coastal sailors using large rafts, canoes, and possibly catamarans. I'm working on an Oltec migration path that leads up that point on northern Davania (which I'm allowing to be longer pre-GRoF) to Ochalea, making it a mere 60ish miles away and aided by the strong currents in the Strait. From there they travel the coasts along the southeastern (at that time the southern) Isle of Dawn and Alphatia, as well as the Alatians and Bellissaria and on to Esterhold.
This means there will be a lot of interaction between some tribes of Oltec and Neathar in this region, mostly fighting for resources of course. The Neathar usually traveling by land and the Oltecs by sea (a key reason why the Oltec tribes spread quicker than any other).
More comments to come.
I wasn't sure what it was at first.
Yes, there a lot of different ideas together here, I guess it help to make it rather confusing. The main idea is bring Adrian Mattias' Yezchamenid Empire to the past of the Alphatian Sea. But I also included some ideas for the tanagoro peoples, the origin of the minotaurs (that match many of Andrew's ideas) and a possible location for the earlier M-Greeks (I'm using GP's theory for Taymora as M-Phoenicia)
That out of the way, I like the idea of putting these peoples in the Alphatian Sea region.
I'm still unsure about changing Adrian's work, but we do have many advantages, such as giving more cultural traits and history to this region.
The only thing I don't particularly like are long oceanic migrations with no apparent and dire cause. I don't mind explorers doing this but massive migrations just don't sound reasonable to me and that is one thing I'm avoiding while developing my own interpretation of Mystaran history.
I feel the same way about this, even about the milenians' and thyatians' ocean migration. At least for the second, it could had happened more gradually than canon suggests, I guess.
Still, I'm just using the locations HW maps show oltec colonies c. 3000 BC. Besides, Y'hog Carnifex did obliterated the davanian Orimul civilization according to Greoff's article, so the few that survived had to do it far from Davania (the Serpent Peninsula for the "M-mesoamerican world", Oceania for the origns of Cestia (M-Madagascar) and the Sagur (M-Sumer)).
OTOH, that travel was possibly shorter, if the Orimul were present at the whole region until the cestian peninsula. The migration to Esterhold was also possibly shorter: pehaps they at first reached the southern parts of Minaea or Bellissaria, but were pushed by the natives to Esterhold after some time
I'm envisioning the Oltec tribes as being coastal sailors using large rafts, canoes, and possibly catamarans. I'm working on an Oltec migration path that leads up that point on northern Davania (which I'm allowing to be longer pre-GRoF) to Ochalea, making it a mere 60ish miles away and aided by the strong currents in the Strait. From there they travel the coasts along the southeastern (at that time the southern) Isle of Dawn and Alphatia, as well as the Alatians and Bellissaria and on to Esterhold.
The prblem is that we don't have any oltec presence at those places. Or pehaps we do have... could this be the orign for the ochalean physical characteristics, akin to the Ethengarians?
I feel the same way about this, even about the milenians' and thyatians' ocean migration. At least for the second, it could had happened more gradually than canon suggests, I guess.
Agreed. My only consolation is that by this time-frame they have better naval technology making such travel possible, yet still quite dangerous.
Still, I'm just using the locations HW maps show oltec colonies c. 3000 BC.
True. However we aren't tied to this as much as some other due to not really having anything that is based on that label or connected to it. For instance, we could have that label mean that a lost group of Oltecs, separated from the main migration flow, landed here and colonized it with those that managed to survive. As far as I see it we don't need to have the main colony travel there only to leave again for no reasonable explanation. How does that work?
Besides, Y'hog Carnifex did obliterated the davanian Orimul civilization according to Greoff's article, so the few that survived had to do it far from Davania (the Serpent Peninsula for the "M-mesoamerican world", Oceania for the origns of Cestia (M-Madagascar) and the Sagur (M-Sumer)).
And this can be accomplished as stated above. My only preference would be to say that the Y'hog Carnifex obliterated the davanian Orimul civilization, but not necessarily every tribe. That could leave us some remnant people scattered and primitive in the region.
The migration to Esterhold was also possibly shorter: pehaps they at first reached the southern parts of Minaea or Bellissaria, but were pushed by the natives to Esterhold after some time
But even that doesn't tell why they'd risk such large scale movement and how their primitive boats could survive the open ocean. Was it luck that they just happened to travel in the direction of the closest land mass?
The prblem is that we don't have any oltec presence at those places. Or pehaps we do have... could this be the orign for the ochalean physical characteristics, akin to the Ethengarians?
Zendrolion has the Oltecs pass through nearly the same path as I have, except in reverse direction (since he places the Oltecs as originating on Skothar). Additionally, I have most Oltecs being pushed along gradually due to the ebb and flow of conflict with the Neathar. Those that don't are likely killed or assimilated.
I really like the idea of having Oltec tribes settle in Ochalea though. It gives them a couple of millennia to evolve their culture from M-Olmec to a more M-Orient one before the Cypri people move in and those two cultures intermingle to form the Ochalea culture.