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| #1glak2Jun 22, 2008 18:35:18 | Here are my interpretations of the races. I tried to stay with the 4e mechanics and the DS flavor. I changed a lot of the ability score and skill bonuses. Also note the increased speed for Elves and Half Elves. I don't have a strong feel for balance yet so that is probably where these need the most work. I put some racial feats at the end. DWARF Ability Scores: +2 Con, +2 Wis Size: Medium Speed: 5 squares Vision: Low-light Skill Bonuses: +2 Dungeoneering, +2 Endurance Cast Iron Stomach: see PHB Dwarven Resilience: see PHB Dwarven Weapon Proficiency: see PHB Encumbered Speed: see PHB Stand Your Ground: see PHB Focus: whenever you reach a milestone recover a healing surge. After an extended rest you start with 0 Action Points, rather than 1 ELF Ability Scores: +2 Dex, +2 Int Size: Medium Speed: 8 squares Vision: Low-light Skill Bonuses: +2 Nature, +2 Perception Elven Weapon Proficiency: see PHB Fey Origin: this ability has been removed Group Awareness: this ability has been removed Wild Step: see PHB Elven Accuracy HALF ELF Ability Scores: +2 Dex, +2 Cha Size: Medium Speed: 7 squares Vision: Low-light Skill Bonuses: +2 Diplomacy, +2 Insight Dilettante: see PHB Dual Heritage: see PHB Group Diplomacy: this ability has been removed HALF GIANT Ability Scores: +4 Str, +4 Con Size: Large Speed: 6 squares Vision: Normal Being Large: You have reach. See page 220 in the PHB for weapon size information Flexible Outlook: you may change your alignment after an extended rest Dual Heritage: as Half Elf, but substitute Giant for Elf HALFLING Ability Scores: +2 Dex, +2 Wis Size: Small Speed: 6 squares Vision: Normal Skills: +2 Nature, +2 Thievery Bold: as PHB Nimble Reaction: see PHB Second Chance: see PHB HUMAN: see PHB MUL: Ability Scores: +2 Str, +2 Con Size: Medium Speed: 6 Squares Vision: Low-light Skills: +2 Athletics, +2 Endurance Dual Heritage: as Half Elf, but substitute Dwarf for Elf Hobgoblin Resistance: see MM Mul Endurance: as Draconic Heritage THRI-KREEN Ability Scores: +2 Dex, +2 Wis Size: Medium Speed: 6 Vision: Normal Skills: +2 Athletics, +2 Nature Poisonous Bite: you may use the Poisonous Bite encounter power, see below Natural Armor: +4 natural armor bonus to AC Claws: your unarmed attacks deal 1d6 damage, you are considered to be wielding two weapons for the purposes of feats and abilities that require you to do so Thri-Kreen Hunter: You are proficient with the Gythka, a spear/polearm Poisonous Bite Encounter * Martial, Poison Standard Action Melee Target: One creature Attack: Str vs. AC Hit: 1d6 + Strength modifier damage. Make a secondary attack against the target Secondary Attack: Con vs Fort Hit: Target is dazed (save ends) HEROIC TIER RACIAL FEATS Four-Weapon Fighting Prerequisite: Thri-Kreen, Two-Weapon Fighting, Dex 15 Benefit: You gain an additional +1 to damage rolls with your primary weapon while benefiting from Two-Weapon Fighting Thri-Kreen Huntmaster Prerequisite: Thri-Kreen, Benefit: You gain proficiency in the Chatkcha (a thrown, heavy-blade group weapon that returns to the thrower) and a +2 feat bonus to damage rolls with the Chatkcha and Gythka Half Giant's Prerogative Prerequisite: Half Giant Benefit: You may move into the space of creatures only one size smaller than you (see PHB, page 282 for rules) Hardcore Prerequisite: Mul Benefit: Gain a +2 feat bonus to saving throws PARAGON TIER RACIAL FEATS Swift Bite Prerequisite: Thri-Kreen, Poisonous Bite, Dex 13 Benefit: You may use your bite as a minor action Paralytic Bite Prerequisite: Thri-Kreen, Poisonous Bite, Con 13 Benefit: Your bite stuns instead of dazes Giant's Nudge Prerequisite: Giant Benefit: When shifting you may shift into spaces containing enemies. If you do, make a Str vs Fort attack against each enemy. Hit: the target takes 1d6+Con damage and you push the target out of your space. Miss: the target shifts out of your space |
| #2ZardnaarJun 23, 2008 1:19:46 | Something similar to my ideas I had floating around. YOur Half Giant is overpowered though. I would give them +4 strength. +2 strength and +2 con also worlks but I was planning on giving that to the 4th ed Mul Most of the races in the PHB are generic enough to be used as is in Darksun and just changing the fluff. The real question is can you shoehorn Tieflings, Dragonborn and Eladrin into Darksun? I thought Dragonborn could equal Dray, Eladrin be something else not elven based. Tieflings could be some sort of tower freak (change the fluff). |
| #3generalhenryJun 23, 2008 1:32:50 | I'd give the half giant +2 str +2 con, the large size will have them doing plenty of damage. |
| #4glak2Jun 23, 2008 1:48:39 | Yeah the +4s for Half Giants are pretty amazing, but how amazing? I'm not sure. If they have to get only +2s then I don't want them as a player race. The reach and large weapons are also pretty big. I didn't really give them any special powers or other benefits in an attempt to balance them. I have absolutely no desire to shoehorn Tieflings, Dragonborn, and Eladrin into Darksun. I don't see the reasoning. What would we gain anything by including them? Dray all live underground and would be NPCs (monsters). They's also get very different stats, actually they'd be more like Tieflings or Eladrin than Dragonborn. So what about the other races? How did they turn out? What about Dwarven Focus, notice how it is designed to keep the Dwarf player from wanting to stop adventuring? He has a focus to complete. After reading my DS source material some more (I just found like a dozen DS books in my closet!) I'm thinking of changing the skill bonuses around. Elves would lose the bonus to Nature but gain Endurance, Half Elves would lose the bonus to Diplomacy but gain Nature. Half Elves are closer to nature than elves are in this setting. I noticed that Thri-Kreen are mentioned as only getting their poisonous bite when they are older. Maybe I should make the poison aspect a Heroic tier feat. Maybe I could convert the Eladrin teleport into a jump ability for the Thri-Kreen, maybe like the Jump Wizard Utility power |
| #5ZardnaarJun 23, 2008 1:57:42 | Yeah the +4s for Half Giants are pretty amazing, but how amazing? I'm not sure. If they have to get only +2s then I don't want them as a player race. The reach and large weapons are also pretty big. I didn't really give them any special powers or other benefits in an attempt to balance them. Note if you give the Half Giant +2 Con +2 strength they will be simialr to the Mul. How about +4 strength or +4 con or even + 4 strength or con players choice? Makes them distinct in 4th ed. I don't think it would overpower them compared to say a Eladrin in the core rules gaining a minor dimension door type power. |
| #6generalhenryJun 23, 2008 2:35:10 | Note if you give the Half Giant +2 Con +2 strength they will be simialr to the Mul. his Halfling and Thri-Kreen have the same stat mods, speed, vision, and even a shared skill bonus. But I don't think they step on each others toes. Half giants with +2 str will still be the highest damage melee. |
| #7ZardnaarJun 23, 2008 4:02:07 | his Halfling and Thri-Kreen have the same stat mods, speed, vision, and even a shared skill bonus. But I don't think they step on each others toes. Just something I noticed in the 4th ed races. No 2 races have the same ability score modifiers. I would give the races. Dwaf +2 Con, +2 Wis Elf +2 Dex +2 Wis Half Elf +2 Dex +2 Con Halfling +2 Dex, +2 Cha Half Giant +4 str Human As PHB Mul +2 Str, +2 Con Thri-Kreen +2 Dex, +2 Str Mostly the same as the PHB. Kreen could be +2 Dex or +2 Str or Wis based on 3.5 ability scores. I wouldn't worry about the Dwarf focus from a mechanical perspective- put it in the fluff. |
| #8glak2Jun 23, 2008 14:37:15 | Ok I am looking over my Dark Sun Rules book and I've decided to make some changes. I'll go over my reasoning for each race. First of all let me start by mentioning that in DS +2, +1, -1, and -2 are the typical racial adjustments, used by 4 of the races. In 4e +2, +2 are the typical racial adjustments, used by 7 of the races. I have several design principles that I am following, among them are: 1) stick to the +2, +2 formula, and no penalties 2) put bonuses in the stats that had bonuses in 2e 3) not put bonuses where there were penalties in 2e 4) make the races different 5) make the bonuses guide players into picking classes that match the flavor a design principle that I am not using: 1) bend the fluff to match the 4e PHB DWARF 2e stats: +2 Con, +1 Str, -1 Dex, -2 Cha 4e stats: +2 Con, +2 Wis my stats: +2 Con, +2 Wis Why didn't I go with +2 Str, +2 Con? Well I wanted to make dwarves different from Mul. This also helps guide Dwarves into the Cleric class, which is something that I want. I am designing a cleric class which will be a Wis + Con|Dex class. Dex and Cha were obviously out, Int would have caused more Dwarves to be wizards which would obviously have been bad. ELF 2e stats: +2 Dex, +1 Int, -1 Wis, -2 Con 4e stats: +2 Dex, +2 Wis my stats: +2 Dex, +2 Int Int over Wis is the obvious choice here. They got a Wis penalty in 2e and an Int bonus. Also keep in mind that the reason that 4e elves don't get a bonus to Int is because the Eladrin were spun off into a separate race. Elves are very much into magic in DS. HALF ELF 2e stats: +1 Dex, -1 Con 4e stats: +2 Con, +2 Cha my stats: +2 Dex, +2 Cha your stats: +2 Dex, +2 Con These are the trickiest I think. The +2 Dex is the obvious choice, the question then becomes what the other choice should be. Looking over the Racial Class and Level Limits Table I see that Half Elves are drawn to classes with an emphasis on Int and, to a lesser extant, Str. They shy away from classes that rely on Wis. The more I think about it the more your adjustments grow on me. I really don't want to give them a bonus to Con, if only in protest to the nonsense of giving them a Con bonus in core 4e. I really don't want to give them a bonus to Str and Wis is right out. So it comes down to Con or Cha. Half Elves are lone survivalists but they have the physical weakness of their elven parent's. I'll think about this one more. HALF GIANT I think that everyone is in agreement what the flavor is, the question is how big to make the bonuses. This is a balance issue and it will take some time before we have a good understanding of the issues. I'm thinking that they'll be a monster race for now. HALFLING 2e stats: +2 Dex, +2 Wis, -1 Con, -1 Cha, -2 Str 4e stats: +2 Dex, +2 Cha my stats: +2 Dex, +2 Wis Halflings are shown to be great rangers and rogues, and so obviously the Dex bonus covers that well. They also have a bit of a cleric/druid thing to them, strong communities and so forth. I think that the +2 Wis (which they got in 2e) works better than the +2 Cha (which they had a penalty to in 2e). HUMAN we're all in agreement here, as PHB MUL 2e stats: +2 Str, +1 Con, -1 Int, -2 Cha my stats: +2 Str, +2 Con this one was pretty easy, but due to overlap with the Dwarf the Dwarf ended up shifting to Wis THRI-KREEN 2e stats: +2 Dex, +1 Wis, -1 Int, -2 Cha my stats: +2 Dex, +2 Wis my new stats: +2 Str, +2 Wis These guys had nearly the same stats as Halflings in 2e, the only difference being that Halflings were one point wiser, two points weaker, and, one point less uncharismatic. It would really fit the 2e stats to give them +2 Dex since that is their main bonus. However if you look at the level limits table it seems that they were best at Wis and Str based classes. They were the only race who couldn't be thieves. The fluff that I see doesn't really mention too much about their Dex (other than jumping I guess, which is under Str actually), mostly it focuses on their Wis. There is more to races than ability modifiers, what do you think of the special features? |
| #9ZardnaarJun 24, 2008 0:03:07 | Ok I am looking over my Dark Sun Rules book and I've decided to make some changes. I'll go over my reasoning for each race. First of all let me start by mentioning that in DS +2, +1, -1, and -2 are the typical racial adjustments, used by 4 of the races. In 4e +2, +2 are the typical racial adjustments, used by 7 of the races. I like most of your features. Mechanically you've balenced them but Half Giants in particular could require some work but I'm sure we can fugure something out. Your Halflings could have +2 stealth instead of +2 thievery as DS halfiings are hunters as opposed to core rule kender type thieves. I like the Kreen stat changes as well but I think they need +2 dex as they had +4 in 3.5. Your elves may be slightly overpowered but not to much I htink as the +2 dex and Int is almost a penalty in 4th ed as they both modify the same defense. In our limited playtesting as 4th ed is all new and shiny Elves are maybe the best race in core rules due theelven accuracy power in regards to dailys and ranger powers that deal extra damage if both attacks hit. One thing I've never like in Darksun i the Dwarven focus mechanic and how they become banshees. I could handle a Dwarf with an intense focus could become a Banshee after death but every Dwarf having a focus and maybe becoming a Banshee if they flunk it doesn't make much sense. |