* * * Wizards Community Thread * * * -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Thread : Dear all 1st and 2nd Ed DM's.....????????? Started at 12-12-03 01:54 PM by Redthorne Visit at http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=147222 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 1] Author : Redthorne Date : 12-12-03 01:54 PM Thread Title : Dear all 1st and 2nd Ed DM's.....????????? .....I hope I did the right thing with my PC's during our last session. For months, the party has been man-handling every bad guy I can throw at them - not because they're exceptionally powerful, but because they are a large diversified party. So, last night I decided to bulk up the enemy even more than usual to give 'em a real challenge. The party consists of 6 single class and multi-classed characters ranging from 3/3 to 5. They were originally supposed to fight a 6th level evil priest with a small group of undead, but I bulked him up to 9th level and doubled the undead army to about 20. Well, needless to say, for the 1st time in the party's history nobody could score a hit or make a saving throw. The priest successfully HELD most of the party that the ghouls didn't paralyze. After the priest dropped down a FLAME STRIKE in the middle of the group, things did not look good. The result, one last character, a monk, to save the party from their impending doom. So, in my desire to keep the party from being totally destroyed, I decided that an injured winter wolf (who was released from bondage and healed by the party's Ranger earlier in the session) came to the aid of the party. The reasoning behind this was that the priest had been holding the wolf captive, so he was attacking out of revenge and not necessarily to help the party. Subsequently, I allowed the priest to meld into the wall and escape. I didn't want the wolf to kill him, so that he could return to haunt the PC's in a later adventure. So, did I do the right thing? Should I have just let the party die and let them make new PC's? Just for the record, I only gave the party 1/2 experience for the undead they did destroy. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 2] Author : DM Zoc Date : 12-12-03 02:12 PM Why would you only give 1/2 experience? Were they playing out of character? I say, if they had heard how powerful the cleric was and decided to go after it anyway, then it was their fault. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 3] Author : imayb1 Date : 12-12-03 02:21 PM I think this is a case of, "he pushed me!" followed by, "then I'll push back harder!" I think this will only encourage your players to make their characters *stronger* instead of **smarter**. I'm not saying that what you did was wrong; I think your encounter was fine. I just think you're going about the scenario the wrong way. If you want to give your players a lesson, then smacking them down isn't the way to do it. I don't mean to be rude, here, either, or even to suggest that you're 'getting back at them'. I just think you'd be better off giving them a scenario where they need to think hard to win the XPs. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 4] Author : Hiryu Date : 12-12-03 02:59 PM I think I agree with Imayb1. His point about making them whink will be specially true when they get to higher levels (10+), when you will have a REALLY hard time finding combat challenges for them. That said, I think you scored a few points, too. I think trying to save the characters is a good thing, unless the players really deserved to get their character killed. After all, the game is for fun and nobody has fun when their character died. I think the wolf was a pretty nice, flavorful detail, and perhaps you could even allow the ranger to have him as a pet. I've learned players like that kinda stuff. I think letting the priest scape after whooping their asses was a very good thing, too. Now the player's got a taste of a hard enemy that got away, and chances are they will feel strongly about him whenever they face him again, or even just when they hear about him. I would advice you to flesh him out as an NPC and try to always keep him at some 5 levels above the party. Personaly, I think some of the best party nemesis' happen organically, so you are on the right track on that one. Just remember to make him smart, instead of a hard punching bag. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 5] Author : Redthorne Date : 12-12-03 04:40 PM Thread Title : reply My intention was not to smack the PC's down, only to give them a little more of a challenge. As far as being the PC's fault, how would they know what level their adversary is. All they knew was that an evil priest with a hoard of undead had taken over the local mines. I honestly thought before the encounter that the PC's would win. My only concern was letting the winter wolf help them. I didn't know if that was a cop out on my part. I gave them 1/2 XP because they should have been dead. When/if they finally kill the priest I will compensate them well. I truly want the PC's to succeed and become powerful. That makes the game more fun for me, too. Oh and by the way, Hiryu, I am already salivating thinking about fleshing out the priest. The PC's killed the priest's younger brother in one of their early adventures. I would think this guy really hates the PC's now. They killed his brother and destroyed his army of undead. He is already plotting sweet revenge. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 6] Author : Stonebeard Date : 12-13-03 08:45 PM I think you did exactly the right thing... Far too often players and DMs alike think only in terms of success. But lets face it failure is a part of life and in any good fiction you read the bulk of the story is told in the failures. Its perfectly reasonable to design an adventure where the party is meant to fail. It would be the height of arrogance for any party to think they can always succeed. Where's the adventure in that? Now if this was done out of spite that would be unfair but based on the original post I don't believe this to be the case. Although as DM your job is not to be especially nice to the players its to challenge them and if your having trouble with that by all means try many different things. Let them know that failure is possible you'll ruin everything if they don't get that sense because it makes the victory all the more sweeter if they know the could have failed! peace, -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 7] Author : Mock26 Date : 12-14-03 11:52 PM I think you did the right thing, but not in the right way. This is not a criticism, just my opinion on how I would have done it. I would have bumped up the priest by 1 level only. I would have also added in a couple other NPC's (maybe a mage, a thief, and a fighter or two, and instead of a ton of ghouls, a ton of skeletons with bags of daggers to throw. In my experience it seems that increasing the number of foes works out better than making the foes more powerful. Also, potions of teleportation are usually standard items for my favored evil NPC's. Take care and have a great day... ciao, john. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 8] Author : Thailfi Date : 12-15-03 09:11 AM I am worried about how you termed "dropped a flame strike in the middle of the party" How many characters did you let this spell effect? With the area of effect limitations on this spell, it is extremely rare that you will be able to effect more than one character unless the players are painfully stupid. I have found that ghouls and clerics are extremely tough on low level adventurers like this group. They just don't have the saving throws to stand up to hold person and 3 paralyzing attacks per creature. How did you set up this encounter? If the players had any kind of terrain advantage, this would be a fair encounter. Players set the elves or high AC fighters up front, cleric turns, magic-user tagets cleric with magic missile so he can't get off any of the notoriously slow cleric spells. If it was a surprise situation where the undead surrounded the players and the cleric was free to get off his spells, then you put your players in an unwinnable situation. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 9] Author : OldDungeonMaster Date : 12-15-03 10:49 AM Thread Title : DM Strategy I would have handled it somewhat differently. I would have allowed the party to destroy the priest as he was. However, at the moment of their victory introduced an even more deadly threat, one perhaps that would force the party to retreat since they may well have been wounded, and used up a lot of spells at that point. The evil high priest after all is just a minion (as it were) of much more deadly evils none of which would like to see him defeated. This would lead to new challenges and adversaries and put the fear of bruce into the players. I have been in the position of having to let the players die when due to a random outdoor encounter they ran into a pack of dire wolves and couldn't defeat them. There were no survivors. This is part of the game. If the characters don't die there is no risk for them. Things you design are another matter of course. You have to temper the need of the party to win against the storyline you are trying to follow/create. Even the death of one of the player characters can add to the story and increase its worth. Old Dungeon Master -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 10] Author : Redthorne Date : 12-15-03 03:33 PM Thread Title : retort Unfortunatley, both the party Priest and the Paladin failed their turn rolls. If either had made their roll then the battle would have easily gone the other way. Then, I would have been stuck with the same old scenario - the party would have ganged up on the priest and easily wiped outh the remaining undead. As for the Flame strike - I always play intelligent foes as INTELLIGENT foes. Three member of the party were gathered together sharing resources (healing mostly). The priest, being an intelligent enemy, took this opportunity to drop an offensive spell where it would hurt the most. Any PC would have done the same. I do realize the area of affect which is why I made the main recipient in the center save for all/one-half and the peripheral PC's save for one-half/none. Magic flame must have some collateral damage, right? Once again, when everyone fails their save, there is nothing you can do. Let me reiterate once more, I am not regretful for the size or strength of the enemy. The PC's had practically walked through everything I had thrown at them up to that point. The previous battle with a group of orcs and two trolls lefty nary a scratch on any of them. IF THE PC's AREN'T AFRAID OF DEATH THEN THE GAME IS JUST NOT AS FUN. There were opportunities to flee, they just chose not to. I want them to appreciate the art of character survival. Hopefully, this will be an adventure that they talk about when they are 10th+ level. "remember when that priest almost killed us all!" Now that's gaming!!! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 11] Author : ironfang Date : 12-15-03 03:59 PM I have to agree with OldDungeonMaster. By the sounds of it, this party has been around for quiet a while and has made a name for itself. If a party is man handling every bad guy you throw at them, then just add this element to the campaign and adjust accordingly. If the major evil of the land gets reports that he has lost two strong holds to a group of adventurers, this is going to get his attention, and he is going to respond to this challenge with whatever means he has available (remember that bad guys also have enemies and cannot throw EVERYTHING at them). I would have let the party do their man handling once again (I am not a fan of adjusting encounters for the party... in ANY direction). The next time they go to a small town for relaxation, they are going to get a nasty surprise. After a while, everyone is going to have an understanding of the abilities of the party, and the main bad guy may use his resources to counter the parties strength (this works out well when you have a well defined enemy... its kind of unfair to all of the sudden create minions to defeat the party). Also dont be afraid to send the party up against enemies that they simply are not powerful enough to defeat. This is also a great lesson in humility. If the party decides to take a mission to defeat some very powerful NPC mage, cleric or warrior, make sure that the NPC is played appropriately and has prepared accordingly. The best the party may be able to hope for is to thwart that powerful NPC's plan, and be forced to hit the road before he responds. If they think they are going to just barge through the gate and kill the Lord, let'em try. They are gonna learn a VERY painful, and unforgiving lesson. Tyranus -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 12] Author : Thailfi Date : 12-15-03 05:40 PM Well if you gave them the opportunity to turn before the undead could attack to full effect, they were foolish enough to cluster together to allow for a small area of effect spell, and didn't have low casting time spells ready to counter the priest, then they deserved what they got. I too am reluctant to administer a TPK, so I would have come up with something as well. The only thing I would have done differently is give them full experience for their kills (things the wolf killed would not count as a party kill). They were already licking their wounds, no need to rub salt in them. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 13] Author : Redthorne Date : 12-16-03 08:46 AM Thread Title : 1/2 XP My plan is to give them extra XP and adventure completion bonuses when they finally kill the priest. Actually, this has turned out better than I thought. The PC's are :censored::censored::censored::censored::censored::censored: that this priest roughed 'em up and got away. They're on a mission. I couldn't have planned this any better. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 14] Author : Redthorne Date : 12-16-03 08:47 AM Thread Title : previous post Sorry, not sure what happened there. I promise everyone that there was absolutely no profanity. :) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 15] Author : OldDungeonMaster Date : 12-16-03 08:47 AM Thread Title : The Next Step Lets be clear on one thing. As a DM I think you did all right. The DM has the toughest job in the game. You sort of get to play but not really. Its a lot of work, and then you have to watch the players chew through every thing you've created. That can get a bit on the nerves. You were fair. By the time the players characters have hit 10th level they pretty much understand the rules as well as you do and they know when your being fair. I'd probably introduce a little side adventure, some warning or indication that by destroying the minions of your evil high priest they've really made him angry. I like the rest stop idea... The players retire to an inn at a local village (I'm sure you can arrange that) where they decide to stop off for the night. After shutting themselves in their rooms the player group cleric is awakened by an omen. His/her holy symbol is pulsing glowing and lighting the entire room, with each pulse the glow gets weaker and the cleric begins to feel isolated. A pounding on the door is heard and frightened shouts and sounds of screaming fill the air. The alarmed, and surprised players, throw on their armor, gather weapons and rush to the door. The dying landlord of the inn lies bloodied and torn on the floor. He whispers, "cough... evil high priest he summons them... cough... the stone, find the stone... cough... our only salvation... cough... ack..." The players may try to heal the landlord but he simply dies and a rotting smell begins to permeate the room. At this point you can roll for intitiative as the corpse of the innkeeper animates and turns into some vicious undead thing. [In fact - unknown to the players - the entire village is becoming undead.] The inkeeper attacks the players, and strangely - cannot be turned. In fact none of the usual anti undead turning is working. [The entire village is a pocket of evil so strong it is blanketing out good. The only place clerical spells and turning will work is in a temple in the village - everywhere else nothing.] So the players must fight everywhere they go! It may take the players a while to find that the temple is the only good place they can go. The undead will avoid it and not enter it unless the players are inside. They will surround it though and attack if the players stay too long. The player magic-user won't have any trouble casting spells. So the players are trying to find this stone, and belive me they aren't going to have a good time as evil creatures will emerge from the houses and earth at every step. They'll have to leave "no stone unturned" to quote a phrase. You should put an obvious distraction, like a menhir (a single standing stone like stonehenge) in the middle of the village and have some relatively meaningless runes on it. Like the founding date of the village and the phrase, "when moonlight falls on wiklas day". In the graveyard however there should be a standing circle of stones, with one missing. One stone has a hole in it. If the players look through this they'll find they can see a stone in the center of the circle on an altar which is otherwise not visible to the human eye. The stone on the alter should appear to have an up and down side. This stone and altar cannot be touched unless someone is looking through the hole in the menhir. If the players turn the stone over upside down, more evil will appear, something really nasty (a demon perhaps). However if they simply remove it from the altar and graveyard all of the undead in the village will fall to dust. The graveyard of couse is just full of undead, which will rip out of the ground and come after the players in a big way as soon as they enter it. Any undead the players hack up can keep coming at them as bits of claws and biting skulls - unless burned. So... where were we, the players venture downstairs and find the walls and floors bloodied, outdoors mobs of undead zombies, ghouls, and other nasty creatures will come for the players. The cleric may try every spell and turning in the book to no avail. The characters will have to fight. As the players soon realize there is no end to the undead (and you can have as many as you like), they may try to leave the village, and in fact they can run away if they like, but the only person who can't leave the village is their cleric... nyahahaha! The player cleric encounters some kind of invisible barrier and no matter what the players try he cannot leave the village. So if they really like their buddy they are going to have to stay and fight for him. Morning comes but no sun will appear, it is an endless night in the village until the stone is taken from the altar. Even if the players do find the stone, and manage to remove it they'll not find the EHP anywhere, not today anyway. Now the players will have some job to get their friend out of this and they will know that somewhere out there is an evil high priest with all their names on his hit list. evil priest/assasins should appear at random intervals just to keep the players on their toes and reinforce the idea that this nemesis is lurking in the shadows, watching the players, and sending problems their way. Avoid direct confrontation and tease them for a while with nasty little adventures like this one. That's what I'd do... Old Dungeon Master -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 16] Author : OldDungeonMaster Date : 12-16-03 09:52 AM Thread Title : I forgot to add Of course when the stone is removed from the Graveyard the cleric can finally leave the village, the evil blanket will be gone, and the player cleric can then use his spells/turning everywhere in the village. Old Dungeon Master -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Downloaded from Wizards Community (http://forums.gleemax.com) at 05-10-08 08:19 AM.