[Paradigm Shift] Index

Post/Author/DateTimePost
#1

idabrius

Aug 15, 2008 20:58:19
I'll try to use this thread in order to keep the various Paradigm Shift entries in order. Currently, the HQ of the project is located here at the Piazza where Otogi and I are discussing a list of important things to do.

More updates to come as threads expand and need cross-posting.
#2

rhialto

Aug 16, 2008 1:37:33
Actually, Idabrius meant to type http://www.thepiazza.org.uk/bb/viewforum.php?f=40 instead.
#3

idabrius

Aug 16, 2008 7:44:34
Yay, our own subforum! Let the games begin!
#4

the_shaman

Aug 16, 2008 11:30:21
Erm... this may be a dumb question, but does this have any relation to thewebcomic?
#5

Mist-Bound

Aug 16, 2008 13:55:52
Just a comment on the Alu-Fiend and Cambion writeups on that subforum, because I couldn't post it there: given the changes to 4e's racial design philosophy, perhaps you should dsicard the gender restriction on these two races and tweak their ancestries? Because the idea that a half-devil son is, effectively, an inherently different species to a half-devil daughter always seemed rather stupid to me. Not to mention feeding off the cliches "evil men are brutal brawlers, evil women are seductive manipulators".

I personally would suggest that Cambions are the result of the more militant breeds of devil (ie: pretty much all of them) crossbreeding with humans, while Alu-Fiends are the results that come from Succubi and similar 'temptation devils' (such as certain arch-Devils)- this explains why one half-devil is orientated towards combat and the other towards seduction, gives the Baatezu a reason to establish breeding progams to create half-mortal offspring/pawns, and avoids the gender cliches that they were previously the embodiments of.
#6

otogi_2

Aug 16, 2008 14:43:57
nooooo, moar clichess!!!11!

Just kidding folks. Your right, though, I'll change the genders so that it's less restricted, but I really want to keep the cambion's focus on stealt oriented abilities.
#7

Mist-Bound

Aug 16, 2008 15:29:56
Oh, I have no problems with their respective abilities- like I said, it makes sense for half-devils of different origins to be orientated towards different things. Cambions were bred as assassins and guerilla-type warriors, Alu-Fiends are created as infilitrators and tempters.

However, you might want to alter the Diabolic Heritage racial feature's text for the Cambion to be "because of your devilish ancestry, you are considered to have the Devil subtype", because as-is you have them being spawned from the union of a Succubus/Incubus and a mortal. Which makes them identical in origin to the Alu-Fiend.

Also, given that you have the Alu-Fiend's Diabolic Heritage describe them as being the spawn of succubi or incubi, you might want to alter the descriptive text of them resulting from a human father, as that better fits in line with the descriptor of its heritage in its actual statblock. Plus it fits better that way, given that you'e agreed to let Alu-Fiends & Cambions be seperate races (and thus allowing for female Cambions & male Alu-Fiends) rather than different genders of the same race.
#8

idabrius

Aug 16, 2008 16:24:00
Paradigm Shift itself does not refer to the webcomic, but rather to Thomas Kuhns book The Structure of Scientific Revolutions and how that same concept might apply to Planescape.

In other news, I have an interesting idea for how to work on the Planes: Before we were presented with concepts of Law v. Chaos and Good v. Evil, so every plane was designed around L(N)G, LE(N), etc. However, since we will no longer be working with these nonsensical and petty versions of morality, we should determine the THEMATIC ELEMENT of each plane.

IE, Carceri = Prisons, Pandemonium = Madness, etc. etc. From there we can reassemble the plane into something much the same as the old 2/3e type with some slight variants that help play into the thematic element that we have chosen.
#9

Mist-Bound

Aug 16, 2008 17:59:21
Just to point out to Otogi_2, Cambions actually have an entry in the Monstrous Manual, on page 39. They may or may not have melded Alu-Fiends into them, as they are depicted as having male and female members (the accompanying artwork depicts a male Hellsword and a female Hellfire Magus), but they are described as being the results of pairings between devils and mortals (either depraved enough to be willing, or deceived innocents) and inheritors of the worst traits of both parents. It doesn't matter which parent is which species, as their sole Lore entry states that some are born to mortal mothers and raised in the world as vicious children, while others are born to she-devils and trained by the devils. The biggest alteration is that they have a (relatively) small pair of barbed, bat-like wings, which gives them a Fly speed of 8 with Clumsy skill. They are said to usually serve as advisors, lieutenants or bodyguards to devils.
#10

otogi_2

Aug 16, 2008 18:10:00
Just to point out to Otogi_2, Cambions actually have an entry in the Monstrous Manual, on page 39. They may or may not have melded Alu-Fiends into them, as they are depicted as having male and female members (the accompanying artwork depicts a male Hellsword and a female Hellfire Magus), but they are described as being the results of pairings between devils and mortals (either depraved enough to be willing, or deceived innocents) and inheritors of the worst traits of both parents. It doesn't matter which parent is which species, as their sole Lore entry states that some are born to mortal mothers and raised in the world as vicious children, while others are born to she-devils and trained by the devils. The biggest alteration is that they have a (relatively) small pair of barbed, bat-like wings, which gives them a Fly speed of 8 with Clumsy skill. They are said to usually serve as advisors, lieutenants or bodyguards to devils.

Yeah I saw those two. The most consistant thing about it, though, was that they were both immortal humaniods that had fire resistance and a fly speed, which was not only overpowered, but stepping way to much on the tiefling's territory. I like the any mortal thing, but I didn't want them to get the lineage feat I attached to my previous creations (half-dragon and draconic). Plus the art was kind of ehh.
#11

Mist-Bound

Aug 16, 2008 18:52:20
I was just letting you know that there were some Cambions in the Monster Manual, thouhg in gneeric 4e it now seems to be a title for any "half-devil".

My comment about parentage actually meant that they can be born from any type of union between devil and human, rather than the original devil-father human-mother for Cambions and devil-mother human-father for Alu-Fiends.

Did you see my comments on Diabolic Heritage?
#12

otogi_2

Aug 16, 2008 19:11:15
Actually I didn't. It sort of passed me by. I was to focused on the mortal part to think abou the fiend part. I like it though. I think I have some more editing to do.

What concerns me more, though, is if you liked it. Do you think you would use it your campaign? Will you think about using the whole Paradigm Shift in general?
#13

Mist-Bound

Aug 16, 2008 20:09:14
I'm flattered you would ask my opinion. I don't actually have any campaign, but from what I've seen, it looks like a balanced race, so I wouldn't object to anyone wanting to play one, though if I don't create a Planescape campaign I might have a little difficulty (or not, the whole point of the Points of Light setting is the freestyle nature of it) slotting it into the setting might pose some questions.

As for the Paradigm Shift... the basic concept of Planescape, of adventuring through the myriad strange worlds that lie beyond the mortal world, of battling with gods and conversing with demons (and vice-versa), of seeking to shape the very reality of existence to your liking, has always fascinated me. I didn't mind the original cosmology of D&D, though I always felt it was somehow... lacking. I can't really explain it, but it just felt off somehow to me. More focused on the meta-concepts of alignment and balance than on the fact it was supposed to be fantasy, I guess. I welcomed the new cosmology as something that felt more true to fantasy. I admit it has little detail given to it now, but it's only been 2 months since it was "born". I am eager to see how it grows, in time.

From what I've seen so far, your 'Paradigm Shift' project has been an attempt to take the young cosmology of 4e and help it grow with lessons learned from the Planescape of editions past. To explore all of the philosophies and wonders that this new cosmology could have, in the style of its spiritual ancestor. And with that being the case... how could I not like it? It doesn't mean I don't eagerly anticipate the official take on the planes, but what you and Idabrius have put together so far has attracted my fascination.

Does that answer your question?
#14

otogi_2

Aug 16, 2008 20:41:52
Yes, yes it does, and in the best anwser possible

But I have to say, you got one part wrong. My name's not on this project. It's completely Idabrius' idea, and even though I was the first one to say I helped him with it, it's just not mine. You can it's your's, though, if you like, but you'll have to pitch in a little bit of work if you want to ;)
#15

idabrius

Aug 16, 2008 21:17:19
Don't sell yourself short, Otogi. If I hadn't seen that article you wrote on the Planes, I'd never have even started this. Anyway, thanks for the encouragement Mist, and we're eager to get all the help we can if you're interested in doing so!
#16

otogi_2

Aug 16, 2008 21:52:27
"Inspiration is brought by others, but the power to build upon that inspiration comes from within"
Me, like right now--

Either way, we'd really love any help we can get on this.
#17

Mist-Bound

Aug 16, 2008 21:53:13
While flattered beyond description and honored beyond words, I regret to say that I must decline. I am... unskilled at converting, and came into Planescape long after it had ceased official production, so I haven't the background knowledge to truly help. I am more than willing to offer my own insight and opinions on any material that you produce, as my lack of emotional attachment to the past means I may have viewpoints that could be helpful.

My primary advice is this: never forget that in 4e, Alignment is dead. The Planes in earlier editions were basically showcases for the nature of morality. In 4e, planes are founded upon a pair of different pillars: Themes and Philosophies. In old D&D, Mechanus was the Plane of Law. In 4e, Mechanus is the Dominion of Order, the planar embodiment of cold logic and mechanical precision, home to those who shun chaos and devote themselves to routine. Yet, it is a philosophical battleground, for Mechanus is also devoted to the concept of Progress, which leads to debate- is the refinement of a mathematical equation Chaos, for it disrupts the status quo, or is it Order, in that it better defines the structure of reality? Is a technological advancement a thing to strive for, or a thing to shun for its breaking of the existing structure of reality?
#18

otogi_2

Aug 18, 2008 14:09:24
You're kidding, right? I didn't even play the entire D&D game before 1995, and I didn't even hear of Planescape before at least '04. I'm probably one of the only people of my age that have even heard of it! You might not be the greatest conversion expert, but age doesn't mean anything.

Thanks for the advice. It's pretty fantastic, really. I love the idea of doing philosophies instead of alignment, like Arborea for freedom or Arcadia for harmony or another plane starting with an A for some abstract ideal ;)
#19

Mist-Bound

Aug 18, 2008 20:03:11
Well, if you do want me to join, I'd be honored to help- but I'll need you to tell me the sorts of things you actually need help in. I know almost nothing about the planes as they were, but I'll make any suggestions that come to me if I think they'll help.

I'm glad you like my advice; it just seemed to 'click' with me, given the stated (so far) aim of 4e towards fantasical planes, and Planescape's existing history of deeply thought-provoking play. Plus, it's not entirely a new thought- Ravenloft, the so-called Demiplane of Dread, was basically a world/plane founded on the Themes of Gothic Horror- Fear, Darkness, Mystery, etc.

Of course, one shouldn't forget that a part of 4e's aim towards locales is simply "cool, fantastical places". Places like the various demiplanes showcased in that one Dragon article, can't remember it's number off the top of my head. So don't be afraid to toss out a planar location or two simply because it looks good. Moil or Neth is just as fitting a Dominion in the Astral Sea as Arborea and the Nine Hells are.
#20

otogi_2

Aug 18, 2008 20:12:20
Well, if you do want me to join, I'd be honored to help- but I'll need you to tell me the sorts of things you actually need help in. I know almost nothing about the planes as they were, but I'll make any suggestions that come to me if I think they'll help.

I'm glad you like my advice; it just seemed to 'click' with me, given the stated (so far) aim of 4e towards fantasical planes, and Planescape's existing history of deeply thought-provoking play. Plus, it's not entirely a new thought- Ravenloft, the so-called Demiplane of Dread, was basically a world/plane founded on the Themes of Gothic Horror- Fear, Darkness, Mystery, etc.

Of course, one shouldn't forget that a part of 4e's aim towards locales is simply "cool, fantastical places". Places like the various demiplanes showcased in that one Dragon article, can't remember it's number off the top of my head. So don't be afraid to toss out a planar location or two simply because it looks good. Moil or Neth is just as fitting a Dominion in the Astral Sea as Arborea and the Nine Hells are.

I do have one thing that you might be able to help me with since you show so much insight about design and how 4e and Planescape can work. I'll message you about the details in a little bit.

I like the way you think, kid. I'll make sure to keep all that in mind while thinking about ideas.