* * * Wizards Community Thread * * * -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Thread : Difference between D&D 1983 and AD&D Started at 12-23-03 05:03 AM by The Swedish Viking Visit at http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=153084 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 1] Author : The Swedish Viking Date : 12-23-03 05:03 AM Thread Title : Difference between D&D 1983 and AD&D Okay people. I am in a position where i can get my hands on either D&D (box from 1983, for a cost of aprox. 10 dollars US) or AD&D second edition (from 1993, for about 70 dollars US. Note that it is cheaper to buy a decent collection of 2E books than the current! -lol- It is, usually, the other way around with old "classic" editions). Though not both. For someone who has never played any of these games (only this one) could you point out the difference between the "original" and the "advanced" types of gaming? Can someone spell out to me which one i should by? And are the adventures from the B series (such as B4, Palace of the Silver Princess) playable with AD&D? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 2] Author : OldDungeonMaster Date : 12-23-03 08:39 AM Thread Title : Some thoughts about the old rules Are you talking about the box with the original rules or Basic D&D? Basic D&D has more in common with AD&D than it does with the original rule system. The combat table/armor classes used in AD&D are not the same as those in the original 3 book rules. In the original rules there were only three character classes, fighters, clerics and magicusers, with the supplemental rules those were expanded upon and other character classes were introduced. All weapons do the same damage in the original game. The Basic D&D includes the thief character class. AD&D has subclasses of the main characters, paladins, assasins, monks, etc... Basic and AD&D weapons cause different damage. It's a more mature and adult game. The original game and the basic sets are simple to use and provide a faster moving game. I prefer that to AD&D personally as the game is a lot more fun. You don't have to be a lawyer to play the game. You have to use your imagination more. The emphasis of the early game rules is on the dungeon in a wilderness setting. It's nice when the characters all have the same goals. The original rules are more "complete" in the sense that the levels and spells go farther than those in the first Basic D&D set. You need both Basic D&D sets to cover similar information found in the original rules. The Basic sets though are a step to AD&D and contain progressions not found in the original 3 book rule set. Are you aware you can download from www.rpgnow.com all of the rules for Basic D&D and AD&D in pdf format for $5 each? Old Dungeon Master -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 3] Author : OldDungeonMaster Date : 12-23-03 08:42 AM Thread Title : 1st/2nd AD&D I forgot to mention the first editon of AD&D is not at all the same game as 2nd edition AD&D. I wouldn't touch 2nd at all, but that's just my personal feeling about it. It's not the game I remember at all. Old Dungeon Master -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 4] Author : ironfang Date : 12-23-03 09:12 AM Actually, 2e is not as different from 1e as OldDM is stating. The major differences between 1e and 2e are as follows; Non Weapon Proficiencies + Weapon Proficiencies: 1e you had secondary skills which you rolled from a chart, and that was your characters trade prior to adventuring. In 2e you can use a point system to select different skills which can compliment a characters class. Also there are "Weapon Proficiencies" that represents that you have trained in certain weapons. In 1e, fighters were assumed to be able to use any weapon w/o penalty. In 2e, you have to use points to say which weapons you know how to use (or suffer attack penalties). Initiative: In 1e you roll d6 (with no weapon speed factors), in 2e you roll d10 (with weapon speed factor adjustment). Classes: The assassin and monk class has been dropped from 2e (Cavaliers and Barbarians were 1e options). Spells: Some wizard spells have been modified (damage caps were placed on many spells, such as fireball to make its max damage 10d6). Other than that (excluding option rules that are OPTIONAL), there truly few differences between 1e and 2e. Ironfang -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 5] Author : OldDungeonMaster Date : 12-23-03 10:25 AM Thread Title : Opinion Maybe I should make my opinion clearer, by 2e I believe that there are so many rules in 2e it chokes the game play. I had more fun playing the original game than I ever did with subsequent revisions simply because there are less fine points of combat and other things to enforce/interpret. I guess what I was trying to say was that from my position of having played the game right from the start through 1e, the change to 2e had less in common with the original game than it does with 1e. However, who knows, you might like it. As I said I've gone right back to playing the original rules, just because they are simple. It's a dare to play the original game just as it is with only three character classes! There is weapon proficiency in the first printing of AD&D but you do have to look for it. It's one of those obscurely written rules, most of the time we just glossed over it too. The fighter character is only allowed so many weapons any others he uses at a penalty. Anyway, it is nice to have the books which ever system you choose to run. Old Dungeon Master -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 6] Author : The Swedish Viking Date : 12-23-03 01:07 PM With Basic i mean: Set 1: Basic D&D Rules (1983) AD&D: 2nd Edition. Am i right to assume that this is the rules used in Baldurs Gate? -grin- Are the adventures from the B-series adaptable to AD&D (2nd or 1st)? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 7] Author : sandskimmer Date : 12-23-03 01:51 PM With Basic i mean: Set 1: Basic D&D Rules (1983) AD&D: 2nd Edition. Am i right to assume that this is the rules used in Baldurs Gate? -grin- Are the adventures from the B-series adaptable to AD&D (2nd or 1st)? Yes Baldur's Gate (the video game) used 2ed AD&D rules. Yes you can convert the B-series modules to 2ed AD&D, though it takes alot of work to do it properly. But, it doesn't need to be done properly; you can adhoc alot of the stuff if you really know your rules well. The AD&D system had alot more rules than the D&D basic set. The basic set was just that - basic. It gave you the bare bones to make a simple character and fight monsters - nothing more. Both are classics. Both are good. Both are fun. I honestly couldn't pick between the two... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 8] Author : The Swedish Viking Date : 12-23-03 02:06 PM Yeah. I know. Maybe i will be able to get both. But it still leans to B4 and the complete AD&D set of rules. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 9] Author : Elendur Date : 12-31-03 02:24 PM What exactly are you getting with the 2nd E set? I wouldn't pay more than 10 bucks a piece for the PHB, MM, and DMG. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 10] Author : King Cornish Date : 01-07-04 04:52 PM Thread Title : Second Edition vs. First :confused: Second edition has alot more rules, but these are only to the benefit of gameplay. If you have smart and creative players, they will want to do alot of things that there aren't any set rules for. With second edition, you know how to deal with most of these things. I think that the biggest thing everyone has to remember is this : as a DM, you don't have to follow any rules that you don't like. You can take 80-90% of second edition rules, and customize the rest to your style of play. The campaign I'm currently playing in is a hybrid of all 3 editions. We consider it a 2nd edition campaign, although we use alot of items, creatures, and certain features of 1st edition. The aspect of 3rd edition that we are using is the customization/freer (is that a word?) style of 3rd edition. If one of the players wants to create a new proficiency, spell, or anything else for their character and the rules don't specifically allow this, we just draw it up and the D.M. makes any necessary changes and allow or disallows what we drew up. My point is that you don't have to be a "rules lawyer" just because you are playing second edition. There is a reason why they made second edition, and unlike 3rd edition, they didn't do it just to make money and make you HAVE to buy the new stuff just to keep up to date with D&D. I'd recommend buying old second edition books off of e-bay (start with players handbook and DM's guide), and see how you like it. No matter which edition you decide to go with, the book(s) will be valuable to you if you stick to the philosophy that you don't have to follow the rules EXACTLY. Thank You. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 11] Author : DarkTouch Date : 01-10-04 06:42 PM I might point out that 'Basic' D&D.. as in the Red Box doesn't have anything resembling advancement rules. It has enough to get you up to either 3rd or 4th level. If you're looking for an Old School 'basic' D&D game, I'd recommend picking up 'D&D Rules Cyclopedia'.. right there in one hardbound book you have EVERYTHING you need to play. All of the fancier classes, full advancement up to.. around level 36 maybe more, spells, monsters, treasure.. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 12] Author : kviksverd Date : 01-19-04 09:51 AM My first piece of advice would be to pick up the even earlier Basic and Expert books from 1981 (edited by Moldvay and Cook respectively). These will take you up to 14th level, and are probably the best organized and most streamlined of all the rulesets put out. You can usually find them on eBay for less than $5 each. The Cyclopedia is a good suggestion as well--though you'll generally have to pay a pretty penny for it. My second piece of advice would be to go to the following site. . . Dragonsfoot (http://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/) Probably the best resource on the net for the older versions. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 13] Author : Edgewaters Date : 01-25-04 09:23 AM Originally posted by The Swedish Viking With Basic i mean: Set 1: Basic D&D Rules (1983) AD&D: 2nd Edition. Am i right to assume that this is the rules used in Baldurs Gate? -grin- Are the adventures from the B-series adaptable to AD&D (2nd or 1st)? If you want it for collecting purposes or a history of the game of any kind - forget about 2nd. Get the red box Basic. It's definately a classic. If you're strictly interesting in playing, you won't have much to go on with the Basic Rules. Since RPGing is not the novelty it was in the days it was released, I doubt you'll get anywhere near the mileage you might have got when it was new. You might get a dozen dungeon crawls out of it if you're lucky. BUT if you have the option, I'd do what the others suggest and pick up the Rules Cyclopedia. It's one of the few gaming books that has an entire complete game all wrapped into one volume, the mileage of that one book is virtually unlimited. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 14] Author : Solaris Date : 01-25-04 10:19 PM With regard to the level limitations of the red Basic boxed set, as compared to the Rules Cyclopedia: Following the Basic set were the Expert, Companion, Masters, and Immortals boxed sets. The Rules Cyclopedia is just the boxed sets compiled into one book, without the great Larry Elmore and Jeff Easley artwork. Given the choice between the boxed sets and the cyclopedia, I'd choose the sets. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 15] Author : Arilou_skiff Date : 02-04-04 04:34 AM 2nd. ed., definately. Why? one word: Planescape! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 16] Author : Edgewaters Date : 02-04-04 05:45 AM Oh, but 2nd ed made a right mess of Mystara though. And you'll *never* get all the books, theres a ton of them. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 17] Author : Wyrmbane Date : 02-04-04 10:04 PM You can get all of them, you just have to be patient. :) My problem right now is getting doubles of some things. My roommate has the same idea, but he has a very short list of things he doesn't have at all. It can be done. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 18] Author : Zythrst Greyeyes Date : 02-05-04 01:53 AM Originally posted by Edgewaters Oh, but 2nd ed made a right mess of Mystara though. And you'll *never* get all the books, theres a ton of them. Why don't you like 2e Mystara. Man I love Glantri. Heres a sob story. About 3 years back, my DM moved to another city and gave me all of his 2e material, about 120 different items(and thats without anything FR!!!) Well being such a fanatic I dig right into Glantri. He'd call on the phone sometimes, and I'd talk about everything I loved about it and how devious he'd been in our campaigns. Well about 6 months later he breaks up and back he comes. Well I'm a good sport and give him his books back. So we start playing again and he says "Well what campaign should we play". I say, "Well we've always loved Glantri". Well he obviously just looked at me and said"You kidding." So of course I said, "No, I forgott everything I swear." Well he didn't buy it and we havn't played Glantri since. Hmm this has just inspired me to post in another thread.:D -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 19] Author : Edgewaters Date : 02-05-04 02:20 AM Originally posted by Zythrst Greyeyes Why don't you like 2e Mystara. Man I love Glantri. Heres a sob story. About 3 years back, my DM moved to another city and gave me all of his 2e material, about 120 different items(and thats without anything FR!!!) Well being such a fanatic I dig right into Glantri. He'd call on the phone sometimes, and I'd talk about everything I loved about it and how devious he'd been in our campaigns. Well about 6 months later he breaks up and back he comes. Well I'm a good sport and give him his books back. So we start playing again and he says "Well what campaign should we play". I say, "Well we've always loved Glantri". Well he obviously just looked at me and said"You kidding." So of course I said, "No, I forgott everything I swear." Well he didn't buy it and we havn't played Glantri since. Hmm this has just inspired me to post in another thread.:D GKoM was pretty weak compared to the original Glantri (GAZ3) ... I really thought that the best parts were simply what had been retained from the "classic" dnd gazeteer. Same thing for what they did to Karameikos. The Gazeteer series (GAZ) were far superior to the 2e "remake". Not to mention, they detailed all the countries of the Known World, not just one or two. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Downloaded from Wizards Community (http://forums.gleemax.com) at 05-10-08 08:19 AM.