* * * Wizards Community Thread * * * -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Thread : D & D 2 edition Characters Balances Started at 02-22-04 12:31 PM by SuicidalSmurf Visit at http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=187142 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 1] Author : SuicidalSmurf Date : 02-22-04 12:31 PM Thread Title : D & D 2 edition Characters Balances Ummmm, is it just me or is the dwarven battle ragers completely under balanced comepared to an elven spellsword, a blade singer with magic for example. Why would any1 use a dwarf when u can get a totally tooled up elf with way better abilities? Rangers also make dwarves look like pansies...i wouldn't doubt it if halflings outclassed dwarves.... and u can't even be a decent dwarf druid... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 2] Author : Zythrst Greyeyes Date : 02-22-04 02:49 PM You have to remember that a Bladesinger is a multiclassed character. That being said I wouldn't play a battle rager, they make the lawfully stupidist paladin seem logical. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 3] Author : Karn1 Date : 02-22-04 03:21 PM humm.. Battlerager can specialize and have more attack by round than a bladesinger... who is normaly also minimum 2 or 3 level lesser than the battlerager because he is double classe and also more poor stats because he need to spray it in intelligence too if he dont want to miss all the spell he is learning, oh and remember than blade singer hp is way more low, also, i think that he have good advantage when he go in rage(1 to attack, +3 to damage, +10 hp, and -1 bonus to his AC and also ALOT of immunity on wizard spell of control or fear). its a very fun class to roleplay. Also ranger cant specialize, only the justifier(or something like that...) can in 1 weapon. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 4] Author : Warhead Date : 02-22-04 06:31 PM Thread Title : Re: D & D 2 edition Characters Balances Originally posted by SuicidalSmurf Why would any1 use a dwarf when u can get a totally tooled up elf with way better abilities? Because it's a Role Playing Game... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 5] Author : Wyrmbane Date : 02-22-04 06:33 PM Agreed. The Battlerager actually is pretty good, and he'd be fun to play. Which goes back to what you said, it's a Role-Playing Game. :) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 6] Author : Magespawn Date : 02-22-04 06:35 PM You might also check out the Dwarven Champion in the Dwarves Handbook, he's a multi-class Fighter/Priest that can specialize with one weapon and starting at 1st level the weapon he picks starts out at least with a plus 1 bonus and it could possible be higher. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 7] Author : SuicidalSmurf Date : 02-22-04 07:34 PM Originally posted by Karn1 humm.. Battlerager can specialize and have more attack by round than a bladesinger... who is normaly also minimum 2 or 3 level lesser than the battlerager because he is double classe and also more poor stats because he need to spray it in intelligence too if he dont want to miss all the spell he is learning, oh and remember than blade singer hp is way more low, also, i think that he have good advantage when he go in rage(1 to attack, +3 to damage, +10 hp, and -1 bonus to his AC and also ALOT of immunity on wizard spell of control or fear). its a very fun class to roleplay. Also ranger cant specialize, only the justifier(or something like that...) can in 1 weapon. ok i see what ur saying but what about the little clause that makes battle ragers sumtimes hurt their own allies, and if u have a lv 12 battle rager against a lv 10/10 balde singer mage 9/10 times the blade singer will win. I am in no way trying to tell u all not to play dwarves, i play one and am just disappointed as my bro's pansy ass blade singer and other bro's justifier rape every1 as im running to catch up to do anything. I understand how role playing is fun with such a varying degree of skillz but they should make them all equalistic, for example theres really no way to abuse the battle rager but u can totally tool up and abuse fighter mages... oh yah and its 1 lv lower than the dwarf.... u see how the exp doubles each lv for the early lvs?.... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 8] Author : Karn1 Date : 02-22-04 09:47 PM Thread Title : Karn1 well let him in front of the fight and he will not be there long, the point is your a front line guy, he use magic and after he got no spell he go fight ( well my point of view) dunno how your stats work but he should got like max 3/4 of your hp and normally less, our blade singer got 35 hp in our groupe while our full fighter get 60,big difference.. , and also, if you use all the rule, he loose is bonus of blade singer if he use 2 sword at the same time, roleplaying it, he should normally fighting 1 hand sword because of he's style that he perfectionned all his life(my point of view too..) so at low level its 1 attack per round till 7 wow,battle rage specialized 2 weapon is 3 and, starting form the scratch, there no way a blade singer could get 20 level while battlerage would be 12, more like battlerage 12, and the bladesinger 9/7, mage xp double fast as i remember..but i could be wrong.. anyway, yea de blade singer is powerful but willl never be able to handle alot of enemies in melee, he could have a very good ac with spell but not do alot of damage, its a support class. If i had to choice to cut 1 from the full warrior, the wizard or the bladesinger.. well i would not need to think.. bladesinger i have nothing more to say....lol -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 9] Author : Hiryu Date : 02-22-04 10:29 PM Hmmm... somehow I get the impression that this is somewhat of a min-maxing 2ed thread. Like Warhead eloquently put it, it's a role-playing game, not a videogame where you just HAVE to get every item that might give you an advantage. Personally, when I look at a class or kit, I never focus on the perks and bonuses, but on if that is something I want to play or not. That said, tho, kits ARE unballanced. That is why on my games I stablished that players MUST aquire the kits after some training and paying an ammount of Character Points depending on the power level of the kit (as well as fulfilling certain requirements). I think those are one of the handful of things 3E -almost- got right. And I do say -almost- because the ideas behind PrC's are great, but in execution, they leave much to be desired and ended up even more unballanced than the 2ed kits. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 10] Author : Warhead Date : 02-23-04 08:12 AM Originally posted by Hiryu I think those are one of the handful of things 3E -almost- got right. And I do say -almost- because the ideas behind PrC's are great, but in execution, they leave much to be desired and ended up even more unballanced than the 2ed kits. I agree entirely - my 2e kits are "Prestige Kits" that the characters neec to acquire. The simplest modification I made was to have no "bonus NWP's", and make all such NWP's required. Therefore if you can't get them at first level, you can't be that kit. I know that doesn't quite work with all kits, and where the role of the kit wouldn't fit that idea (like, say the Feralan Ranger kit) I tweak other things. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 11] Author : Dwarven Beserker Date : 02-23-04 09:53 AM This is suicidal smurf(account not wrking) and i just wanna say i know kits are unbalanced, but i was wondering y sum kits r way unbalanced and sum r possiblly wrse and if any1 else found that the kits r way to powerful or it was just my dm with his rules, thank you for the replies -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 12] Author : PsyWarrior Date : 02-23-04 10:52 AM Isn't the Bladesinger Kit for NPCs, only? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 13] Author : Warhead Date : 02-23-04 12:04 PM Originally posted by Dwarven Beserker This is suicidal smurf(account not wrking) and i just wanna say i know kits are unbalanced, but i was wondering y sum kits r way unbalanced and sum r possiblly wrse and if any1 else found that the kits r way to powerful or it was just my dm with his rules, thank you for the replies The kits are monstrously unbalanced, yes. I have a long term goal of trying to find a point based system to even them all up - something like the Skills & Powers system (but not so bloody ugly). So far I can get all the standard races even with only the most minute tweaks, but even the core classes are a struggle...and I haven't even begun to start on the kits. The problem is, I think, that different people took on the different books. While I'm rarely one to stifle creativity so that game mechanics work better, in this case I wish at least the various authors had collaborated a touch more. Some kits are over powered, while others, despite my earlier remark about Role Playing, aren't particularly attractive as they're so weak/lame. Makes for good NPC's though... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 14] Author : Dwarven Beserker Date : 02-23-04 06:19 PM k ty ill tell my dm all of that, u guys post w/e u want about other char balances, this thread is as open as u guys want, hence the name character balances, not just meant to be me complaining about battle ragers sucking -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 15] Author : Bladesinger Date : 03-06-04 04:03 AM I DM the group that Dwarven Beserker plays with. Since he's given you the impression that his poor Dwarf is hard done by since he doesn't have a powerful kit (it was his choice not to take a kit, by the way), I'd like to point out a few things: 1. When he created his character, I increased the damage of the battle axe to 1D10 and the damage of the warhammer to 2D4 to make them more realistic and useful compared to weapons such as the longsword. This was done to benefit the Dwarf, since battle axes and warhammers are the weapons he wanted his character to use, being traditional dwarven weapons. 2. His character has 18/50 strength. His is the only character in the group with exceptional strength. That's a +1 hit / +3 damage bonus to start with. The Justifier has 17 strength, and the Bladesinger has 14, so this pretty much evens out any kit-related bonuses. 3. His Dwarf and the Justifier Ranger in the group account for most of the kills, by far. I also run a Bladesinger with the group, and so far he's the only character who's been knocked unconcious. My bladesinger is good at putting orcs or brigands to sleep, but he kills far fewer enemies and there's no way he could hold his own against either the Dwarf or the Justifer in a straight fight. 4. Yes, the Bladesinger and Justifer kits provide some powerful abilities, and, like many other aspects of the game, can be abused if the DM does not keep them in check. Note, however, that the Justifier must be Lawful Good allignment, and the Bladesigner must try to help other elves. So these kits also give these characters additional responsibilities. The bottom line is that his Dwarf is fully the equal in overall abilies to either the Justifier or Bladesigner, and he has nothing to complain about. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 16] Author : Bladesinger Date : 03-06-04 02:54 PM Sorry, I realized that 18/50 strength gives you +1 hit / +3 damage bonuses, not +2 / +3. And I just realized I can edit these posts, so this correction post is no longer necessary LOL -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Downloaded from Wizards Community (http://forums.gleemax.com) at 05-10-08 08:18 AM.