* * * Wizards Community Thread * * * -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Thread : How Fast Can A Dwarf Run Started at 02-23-04 09:50 AM by Dwarven Beserker Visit at http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=187692 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 1] Author : Dwarven Beserker Date : 02-23-04 09:50 AM Thread Title : How Fast Can A Dwarf Run My bro is my dm and he puts a dwarf's running speed, even tho he has runing, incredible low. He made a human with 7 iniative and a dagger in his leg outrun a dwarf with itiative 2 to a door. Do you guys think a dwarf, because of such a strong build, at 4 feet 7 inches, should be able to match the running of a 5 foot 8 inch elf? Do you think a foot shorter should make that much of a difference for dwarves? Any replies are greaty appreciated so i can show my bro and tell him to stop gimping me dwarf. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 2] Author : Thailfi Date : 02-23-04 11:03 AM How big was this room? A dwarf is definitely slower than a human all things being equal. What kind of armor was the dwarf and human wearing? A dwarf in plate mail is about half as fast as a human with chainmail based on official movement rates. Where was the door? Was the human right by it or was the dwarf closer? This is why our group never plays without miniatures. A dwarf should not be able to keep up with an elf or human. The short stubby legs of a dwarf are just not built for speed. There are no rules for encumbered movement for injuries so I can't help you with the dagger in the leg. Obviously, in real life this would slow the human down greatly, but in D&D there are no rules that allow a dagger to become lodged in a character's leg much less what it would do to their movement. If the dwarf had the higher initiative and was equally distant from a relatively close door (20' or less) I would let him get to the door first. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 3] Author : diaglo Date : 02-23-04 11:48 AM couple of questions first. what edition are you playing? and what type of dwarf? as 4' 7" is too tall for hill dwarves. second maybe the DM should be using the rule for caltrops from the UA to determine the human's slowed movement. dwarves do have slower movement...but that is mostly due to the armor they wear. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 4] Author : Dwarven Beserker Date : 02-23-04 05:59 PM my dwarf was unencumbered, the room was small (about 10,15 feet) and he might be 4 foot 5 or 4 foot 6, hes a mountain dwarf too(basically hill just made his hometown in the mountains)The human was wearing cahin and the dwarf was wearing chain and whats the point of running if it doesn't mean he can be a little faster? -im playing 2.0 exp(in sum cd thing) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 5] Author : Hiryu Date : 02-23-04 08:04 PM I think this problem is an issue with role-playing logistics and common sense. Dwarves are, indeed, very slow. This is not, however, because they are fat or even because of any encumbrance penalties. The whole reason resides on the length of their legs. They simply are much shorter and cover a lot less distance in a single stride, so larger creatures (say, a human with a dagger on his thigh) will obviously be faster. The way I read this play, what happened was that the dwarf actually started running before the human, but since he can give longer strides in his run, he beat the dwarf to the door. As for the dagger thing, adrenaline is a wonderful thing indeed, but I think the DM failed horribly in taking his wound into account, which would have effectively reduced his movement rate to half (Mov. 6). Guess what is the movement rate of a dwarf and I'll give you a candy. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 6] Author : Dwarven Beserker Date : 02-23-04 10:57 PM yes but i wasnt trying just to race i was trying to tackle him, r u saying that if i start flying in a tackle that still sum1 limping is faster and can succesful with slow reflexes dodge my completely and get out a door? note: maybe i shoulda mentioned the tackle thing early, sry for the confusion -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 7] Author : Hiryu Date : 02-24-04 12:11 AM Like everything else in life, it depends on the situation. Was your character prone? (meaning he had to get up first), was the intended tackle victim prone? (same thing), was the tacklee running to the tackler, too? was he running and trying to get away? were there obstacles along the way? how far were they from eachother to begin with? Under normal circumstances the human would effortlessly outrun the dwarf, but sounds to me like in this instance there was more stuff going on than the rules can cover. This means that if you go 'by the book', in this type of situations you will never get a logical or believable result, let alone realistic. Which is precisely why rules lawyers should be killed on sight, but I digress. Like I said on my previous post, the human had a dagger in his leg, which sounds to me like a movement rate reduction would be in order. He is limping, meaning that maybe he could go faster than a limping dwarf, but not a dwarf with his whole movement rate available. This means that, in theory, the dwarf shuld be able to at least follow him closely enough to try and tackle him, however, there is also the issue about how close to the door the human was, and in turn, how close the dwarf was to the human at the begining of that round. All in all, in the end the DM is the final authority, and if you don't like his ruling, you can :censored::censored::censored::censored: and moan about it all you like but it's not going to change it. Personally, however, I think the DM made the wrong call ignoring your initiative roll. I don't think there is anything more frustrating for a player than having his 1 initiative, 20 attack roll or 20 saving throw ignored and spat on just because the DM felt it would be kewl. If he really wanted this human to survive the fight, for whatever reason, then he should have been throwing his dice behind a screen. A DM can and should budge any die roll he wants, but throwing the dice in front of the players is always a bad idea. Getting back on the topic, yes, you should have described the situation better. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 8] Author : Dwarven Beserker Date : 02-24-04 12:18 AM Yes i thought dm was wrong too, just wanted a second opinion, but here are all the details, human had a dagger in his leg, both were standing close together, dwarf had to masquerade as a bodyguard for a ranger pretending to be a stolen jem dealer, so they were both fairly close, the room was 10-15 feet long, dwarf was unemcumbered, 6 lower iniative and was wearing same type of armour as human and only meant to get in human's way or somehow take him down. and ty for ur replies -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 9] Author : Bladesinger Date : 03-06-04 03:41 AM First, dwarves have a movement rate of 6. Humans have a movement rate of 12. This means Dwarves are slower than humans. Get used to it if you're playing a Dwarf. Second, since I was the DM for the game, I'd like to clear a few things up about this situtation: 1. The human thief in question was in his guild meeting room, right beside a door to the next room. He was suspisious to start with, and he had just watched his four theif henchmen rendered unconcsious by a sleep spell. He didn't have far to move to get out of the room, which was the first thing he atttemped that round. 2. The AD&D rules do not allow you to achieve a specific type of injury effect with a called shot anyways. According to the rules: "Because the AD&D game uses a generalized system for damage, called shots cannot be used to accomplish certain things. Against a creature, a called shot will only cause the normal amount of damage allowed the weapon. Attempts to blind, cripple, or maim will not succeed. So what can it do? A called shot can cause a target to drop items or react in some other, more subtle, way. It can penetrate weak points in armor. It also can be used in attempts to knock an object out of a hand, shatter a flask, or otherwise damage items. Called shots can be very useful in activating the trigger of a known trap (if this can be done with a weapon) or in impressing the locals in an archery contest." So the fact that I allowed the called shot to the theif's leg with the effect of slowing the character down was bending the rules in the players' favor to begin with. 3. The theif wasn't sprinting down a street, he was scrambling through a nearby doorwary. He probably didn't even feel the injury until he got to the next room (people can be injured in a fight and not immedately realize it or be affected by it thanks to the effects of adrenaline). Expecting the theif to be instantly affected by the injury so he can't make it through a door is a little much. A good initiative roll wasn't going to help you get to the theif before he got to the next room, it would help you reach him before he gets any further. 4. Although I didn't think it would be reasonable that you could stop the theif from getting through the door considering all the factors in the situation, the theif's movement was nontheless sufficient impeded to prevent his escape, since the he didn't make it too far after getting through the door. The underlying point about Dwarves being slow, however, is a separate issue. Dwarves ARE slow. They are simply not able to cover distance very quickly due to thier build and their short legs. Sorry, but that's the way Dwarves are. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 10] Author : Sarta Date : 03-06-04 03:56 AM Sounds like it was a good ruling. But if it were a race to a beer, my money's on the dwarf. Sarta -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 11] Author : Bladesinger Date : 03-06-04 04:19 AM LMAO, actually, his character is named Ungrim Ironkeg, and he carries a barrel of ale on his back (that's the other thing his high strength is good for). So his dwarf would definately beat everyone to the beer, he just has to reach for his keg. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 12] Author : Hiryu Date : 03-06-04 05:48 PM Well, you are the DM, Bladesinger. This means that, by default, your ruling is always right. If you wanted him to beat the dwarf, then he beat the dwarf, simple as that. However, I feel you might want to reconsider your stance on called shots. Following the rules 'by the book' is good and all, but if you are going to introduce certain rules, such as called shots, you have to be ready to bend them quite a LOT. Yes, the rules say you cannot use a called shot to maim or cripple an opponent, but if you are allowing called shots, you cannot tell your characters "You can't shoot your crossbow at the orc chieftain's knee!". Sure you can tell them they missed, but you can't tell them they can't. After all, if HP were all that matters, then aiming a bow at somebody's head is not so impressive. I find this particularly true when you teach you players the hard way that inteligent monsters and NPC also get to make called shots against them. One of the times I've felt more proud about myself as a DM, was when I had a 5th level fighter carefully fighting and trying to not underestimate a 1st level thief. Just my two cents. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 13] Author : Bladesinger Date : 03-06-04 06:27 PM I generally agree about called shots, which is why I allowed the characters to hit the theif in the leg with the intention of slowing him down. In this case, the theif make it to the next room, but didn't make it much farther as a result of the injury to his leg. I just don't think that called shots should be used to gain an overwhelming effect in most cases. After all, the AD&D damage system is very simplistic. I don't impose penalties if a character or monster only has 3 HP left, even though it would be more realistic if I did this. Since I haven't allowed enemies to make called shots to cripple the characters, or imposed penalties for being at low HP, the fact that I allowed ANY combat effect from the called shot was shifting things in the characters' benefit to begin with. The other point Beserker raised, about his Dwarf being slow, is something that he is going to have to get used to though. This doesn't ususally cause him a problem in combat through, since I assume that his Dwarf can move around in close combat reasonably efficiently. But if he wants to start trying to outrun things, he is goning to be at a singificant disadvantage. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 14] Author : Hiryu Date : 03-06-04 06:45 PM Well, some DM's like to give the players the advantages to keep the "Epic Hero" flavor, but personally I think your players should start falling victim to called shots, critical hits, and low HP penalties. If you like to give your players a break and let they characters get 'freebies', that's fine, too. Hey, whatever foalts your boat. As a rule of thumb, however, I never give my players any advantages at all unless the monsters and NPC's get them too... or at least unless the perks come with a catch. (point in case, I let my players get 0 level HP by race, so they can survive better and face more creatures at lower levels, but I set the monster's HD at 1d8+4, lowering their survival rate at higher levels) It doesn't have the "Epic Hero" feel to it, but it sure has a strong "Epic Combat" flavor. When you see a character facing the main villain of the story with his main hand broken, it's just priceless. I also like to give my characters scars every now and then. Rarely do they decide to get rid of them magically, specially the ones they got in particularily climactic battles. As for the dwarf, I agree. If he wants to start outrunning others, he will need Running and Endurance proficiencies, as well as a very fast pony. I just happen to think that, in this partucular case, he did have a shot at catching or at least keeping up with the thief. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 15] Author : Bladesinger Date : 03-06-04 08:28 PM Originally posted by Hiryu Well, some DM's like to give the players the advantages to keep the "Epic Hero" flavor, but personally I think your players should start falling victim to called shots, critical hits, and low HP penalties. If you like to give your players a break and let they characters get 'freebies', that's fine, too. Hey, whatever foalts your boat. As a rule of thumb, however, I never give my players any advantages at all unless the monsters and NPC's get them too... or at least unless the perks come with a catch. So far I've definately been running the "Epic Hero" version of the game, because it seems to work well for us and because I wanted to make it a little easier on the characters at lower levels. Currently the group is around level 5, and will reach level 6 in a few sessions, so I have started being less flexible about these types of things. One example of this is that I currently allow characters achieve a critical on a natural 20, or a fumble on a natural 1 (which results in a free attack by their opponent). I haven't been using either criticals or fumbles for enemies, since this helps character surivial somewhat but still gives characters a corresponding disadvantage to go along with their ability to gain critical hits. Since the characters are getting stronger, however, I will probably be changing this to allow all characters and monsters to get both critical hits and fumbles. I've also been thinking of restructuring the damage system somewhat to impose penalties when HPs reach certain levels, but since the current HP system is very fast and simple I've kept using it so far. I personally think the entire HP system should be replaced with something where damage is measured in injury levels, since it is easier to interpret and would give a much more realistic feel to the game, but this would take a lot of work. The Star Wars RPG by West End Games did this concept rather well, although it had the damage thresholds set too low, resulting in problems when characters didn't take damage at all from an attack. So far, though, the HP system in AD&D suits our group's style of gameplay reasonably well, so I'll probably just stay with it for now. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 16] Author : Edgewaters Date : 03-06-04 09:01 PM Thieves, in my mind, are also naturally good at slipping out of angry people's grasp, lots of practice! A dwarf would be no challenge, especially fifteen feet away when the thief is right beside the door. Also initiative - and any other mechanic - is simply an attempt to create a framework through which to represent and depict events. It should never trump the DM's description of events. It's just there to make his job easier, a tool to help him describe or determine events, and like anything else in the game, the story comes first and if the DM decides he doesn't need any particular tool to do so, then he can freely disregard that. Initiative is a flawed mechanic, too, if it assumes that everyone is simply standing still and doing nothing until their "turn" comes up. In reality everything is happening at once. Initiative is just an attempt to set some order to events but it is really not a very good description of reality. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 17] Author : Wyrmbane Date : 03-06-04 10:25 PM True, not everyone else is standing around. I figure the initiative roll represents who reacts faster as the situation is changing. Since you roll each round, some people react to the new situation faster than others. I guess you can look at it any way you want, but the system works, and it does give you a way to figure out who does what when. Bladesinger, a friend of mine has a pretty simple critical hit/fumble system. On a natural 20, roll a d4: 1= Max damage 2= double damage 3= triple damage 4=quadruple damage You can make the multilple damage add for the weapon only, or the damage the character can do with weapon and their damage bonuses. The quad damage might seem like a lot, but how lucky can you be when you hit Achillies right on the heel? :) Fumble on a 1, roll d4: 1= miss 2= lose remaining attacks for that round 3= lose remaining attacks for that round, lose weapon (you can use the grenade scatter rules to figure out where it goes if you want). Takes one round to recover weapon. 4= Lose remaining attacks for that round, take normal damage from weapon (melee weapon only), lose weapon (see above), stunned for 2 rounds. It gives the players something to look forward to (or dread), but I also give the opposition the same abilities (as needed, especially if things are too easy). -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 18] Author : Magespawn Date : 03-06-04 10:30 PM Sorry for getting off the main topic. Wyrmbane, I like the critical hit/fumble system you use. I think I"ll start using it in my game's, Thanks for posting it.:) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 19] Author : Dwarven Beserker Date : 03-06-04 10:42 PM wow holy :censored::censored::censored::censored: blade, stop freaking out. i was just asking other people what they thought about a dwarf and a human with a dagger in his leg, next to each other and the dwarf trying to impede his escape. and the only reason i didnt choose a kit or multi class is u forgot to tell me dwarves could multi class and dwarf druids suck(my goal in d n d is to get a dwarf druid follower, THEY OWN) and there r no good dwarf kits really, not as rigged as i dont know, lets say the bladesinger or justifer kit, i wondr why those two came to my mind, wait i know... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 20] Author : Bladesinger Date : 03-07-04 01:00 AM Originally posted by Dwarven Beserker wow holy :censored::censored::censored::censored: blade, stop freaking out. i was just asking other people what they thought about a dwarf and a human with a dagger in his leg, next to each other and the dwarf trying to impede his escape. I'm not freaking out. I calmly stated my points and the reasons behind them. Originally posted by Dwarven Beserker and the only reason i didnt choose a kit or multi class is u forgot to tell me dwarves could multi class and dwarf druids suck(my goal in d n d is to get a dwarf druid follower, THEY OWN) I forgot to tell you dwarves could multi class? Read the rules. Demi-humans can multiclass, and humans can dual class. They're on the CD I installed on your computer. And you never asked me anything about multi-classing, either. Originally posted by Dwarven Beserker there r no good dwarf kits really, not as rigged as i dont know, lets say the bladesinger or justifer kit, i wondr why those two came to my mind, wait i know... Go to the D & D Character Balances thread you started. I've explained why your particular Dwarf doesn't exaclty need a kit. Has something to do with the 18/50 strength, 1D10 battle axe damage, and 2D4 warhammer damage. And its not my fault if you don't like the Dwarf kits. I didn't design the game, although as I just mentioned I increased weapon damage when your character was created to help your Dwarf out. Your Dwarf does as well as the Justifier in our game, and the Bladesinger gets stomped on a regular basis, so your Dwarf has no problem keeping up with characters that have taken kits. Oh, and have a nice day! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 21] Author : Bladesinger Date : 03-07-04 01:18 AM Originally posted by Wyrmbane Bladesinger, a friend of mine has a pretty simple critical hit/fumble system. On a natural 20, roll a d4: 1= Max damage 2= double damage 3= triple damage 4=quadruple damage You can make the multilple damage add for the weapon only, or the damage the character can do with weapon and their damage bonuses. The quad damage might seem like a lot, but how lucky can you be when you hit Achillies right on the heel? :) Fumble on a 1, roll d4: 1= miss 2= lose remaining attacks for that round 3= lose remaining attacks for that round, lose weapon (you can use the grenade scatter rules to figure out where it goes if you want). Takes one round to recover weapon. 4= Lose remaining attacks for that round, take normal damage from weapon (melee weapon only), lose weapon (see above), stunned for 2 rounds. It gives the players something to look forward to (or dread), but I also give the opposition the same abilities (as needed, especially if things are too easy). That's a nice critical/fumble system Wyrmbane, although its probably a little too deadly for my group, since I haven't started applying critical hits from enemies yet LOL. But it must make combat more interesting - having an Orc or Goblin come up with quad damage sure would humble most characters pretty quickly. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 22] Author : Wyrmbane Date : 03-07-04 11:59 AM It does liven things up, on both ends. :) Having that little Orc pop you a good one sure wakes people up, they usually don't think I'm giving the baddies the same chances as they're getting. Suprise! The next wake up call is usually at the higher levels. Imagine the horrified looks when heavily engaged with giants (or some other heavy nasty) and the fighters sword arcs out of the melee. >:) Haven't had anyone complain, however. I think they'll take combats a bit more seriously when you do start applying critical hits. You'll see them work together a whole lot more. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Downloaded from Wizards Community (http://forums.gleemax.com) at 05-10-08 08:18 AM.