* * * Wizards Community Thread * * * -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Thread : Multiclassing Idea (1st, 2nd Ed.) Started at 02-24-04 02:09 AM by Nanosecond Visit at http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=188234 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 1] Author : Nanosecond Date : 02-24-04 02:09 AM Thread Title : Multiclassing Idea (1st, 2nd Ed.) I had this idea about multiclassing a while back. Instead of splitting experience between classes, add the required XP together. The PC has to get to the next level. This means the PC's classes gain levels simultaneously. People argued it would take forever for a PC to advance. But it actually helps them go up more quickly. Here's an example of a fighter/mage: Regular System: ftr 1/mage 1: 0/0 ftr 2/mage 1: 2000/2000 (4000 XP) ftr 2/mage 2: 2500/2500 (5000 XP) ftr 3/mage 2: 4000/4000 (8000 XP) ftr 3/mage 3: 5000/5000 (10,000 XP) My system: ftr/mage 1: 0 XP ftr/mage 2: 2000 + 2500 = 4500 XP ftr/mage 3: 4000 + 5000 = 9000 XP In other words, it costs less XP on general to go up in level, and the classes progress at the same time. Okay, people will argue game balance, saying the PC actually gains two classes at once. So we treat this as a single class that takes a while to get to level 2. And we can use the multiclass rules on page 45 of the PHB (1st printing of 2nd Ed.). In other words, the fighter/mage cannot wear armor while casting spells, except elves and half elves in elven chain mail; maybe all races could be allowed to do that now. Multiclass fighters cannot specialize in any weapons. Nonhuman races would take the lower level maximum of the two classes. Elves can rise up to fighter 12 or mage 15. An elven fighter/mage would rise up to level 12 only. Such is the price of versatility. There would be perks, though. PCs would get the better saving throws and WP/NWP allowed. Hit points would be rolled by class type, added, and averaged. IE the fighter/mage would roll d10 and d4, add the results, and divide by 2. Same rules as in the PHB. Any feedback would be welcome. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 2] Author : Dwarven Beserker Date : 02-24-04 09:17 AM Wow i think my bro is doing exactly that already. With none of the mage gets an extra 5% for nothing rule. But yes that sounds like a good idea, and it does wrk well -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 3] Author : Hiryu Date : 02-24-04 02:58 PM I use this system as well, and I find it extremely convenient. When you do the math, it actually reduces multiclassing characters' power, since they have to wait a little longer to gain levels. Similarily, it is easier to average class HP's, proficiencies and CP's when you deal with all of the classes at the same time. Having players create their own calculated experience tables has also helped me introduce more effectively other aspects of the game, such as experience penalties (like the drows' +20% XP requirements) and bonuses (like the humans' -10% XP requirements). It has also helped me introduce more effectively some other rulings of my own. For instance, to lower the multiclassing power even more I rule that multiclassing characters have a +10% XP requirements penalty for every class beyond the first. This means that, for instance, a Fighter/Mage/Thief that sits at my table will need 20% more XP to gain a level. I also have some XP penalties on kits when I find them unballanced and way too powerful. For instance, Bladesinger (the most powerful kit in the whole game, IMHO) has an XP requirements penalty of +20%. Of course, all penalties are cumulative, so a bladesinging Fighter/Mage/Priest drow (incidentally, one of the most powerful characters you could come up with) has a whooping penalty of +60% to his or her XP table. It is amazing all the things a simple rule made out of convenience (such as calculated XP tables) allows you to do. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 4] Author : Dwarven Beserker Date : 02-24-04 05:59 PM funny u should mention blade singers, my bro is playing a bladesinger fighter mage and ill have to talk to him about the exp tables, my other bro is a human justifer ranger and im a regualr old dwarf. its funny tho cause i always kill more than either of them, but were onkly at lv 5,5 and 4/4 so it will change very soon with the bladesinger -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 5] Author : Nanosecond Date : 02-26-04 02:04 PM It seems we came to the same conclusion separately. The nice thing about this method is that it eliminates the dual class option for humans. Just allow humans to multiclass. Demihumans still have level limits (you can drop those if you wish), but humans have unlimited levels. Keep in mind that alignment restrictions still apply (ie no paladin/druids). -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 6] Author : Hiryu Date : 02-26-04 03:00 PM I think most of us got to the same conclusion separately because it's the obvious evolution for that rule. Now, as for me, I let humans multiclass, dropped level caps for humanoids and demihumans, but I still keep single-classing restrictions in some classes, namely Paladin, Monk, Ninja, Druid and WarMage. (War Mage being one of the classes I have been working and playtesting on) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 7] Author : Zythrst Greyeyes Date : 02-27-04 12:45 AM Actually the most powerfull Kit in the game is the Glantrian School Mage :) I've always been given the option to do this, but I usually don't when I play multiclass players. The reason is that a person shouldn't gain class levels unless their using class skills. For example a Fighter/Mage who never pulls out the sword but rather magic missles everything shouldn't get fighter xp. If your going to make a fighter/mage single class, shouldn't it be balanced against the other classes and given its own xp table?, Otherwise its just multiclassing by another name? Now granted I may not have understood what you meant. As long as I mentioned Kits I have a beef. A new player came into our campaign and basically chose this ranger kit I forgett the name, but it alowed him to specialize. Now this bothers me, because I feel this is a cheesy get around. The character could also wear any armor and use its ranger abilities. I just don't like kits that simulate other classes I mean come on. Oh by the way the cleric is a Crusader from skills and magic which means figher thac0 and speciliztion. (I could pull my hair out.) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 8] Author : Dwarven Beserker Date : 02-27-04 03:40 PM Originally posted by Zythrst Greyeyes .As long as I mentioned Kits I have a beef. A new player came into our campaign and basically chose this ranger kit I forgett the name, but it alowed him to specialize. Now this bothers me, because I feel this is a cheesy get around. The character could also wear any armor and use its ranger abilities. I just don't like kits that simulate other classes I mean come on. Oh by the way the cleric is a Crusader from skills and magic which means figher thac0 and speciliztion. (I could pull my hair out.) hahahahahahahaha, my bro plays that ranger too, its called a justifer... lmfao my other bro plays the blade singer fighter mage.. and since im mr dwarf and there are no good dwarf kits im just a basic guy surrounded by uber tooled up kits... but i still own them all in kill count :) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 9] Author : Wyrmbane Date : 02-27-04 08:30 PM Generally, if you get something nifty, you also have to give up something nifty. A priest that gets good weapon skills and/or THACO gives up spell abilities (not a whole lot of major/minor accesses). I don't have a problem with those kinds of kits. A Holy Slayer is a really good thief, but I don't care how good he is with his weapon, he sure doesn't have the hit points of a fighter. :) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 10] Author : Zythrst Greyeyes Date : 02-28-04 09:37 AM Fair enough I guess, but what about this Crusader. He has specilization, warior thac0 table and can use Warrior proficincies at cost, and he is using a Two-Handed sword so no restrictions there I think. Pluss he still gets a handfull of spheres and the better priest saving throws. Now i'm playing a Glantrian School Mage so I can't complain about perks, but at least my power is still within the realm of Wizardry. See thats what is hacking me off, he is essentially a fighter with priest skills without the hassles of multiclassing. Now I'm sure there are some disatvantages, no turning for one, but again not the point. Also will no one respond to my original query. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 11] Author : Nanosecond Date : 02-28-04 05:12 PM If you're the DM, you can always do the following about the Crusader: 1. Don't allow the kit. 2. Modify it to suit you. Maybe remove specialization or spellcasting ability. Since you're the DM you have final say about it. I know players will say it's not fair, but they have the luxury of not having to look at the big picture. If you think it ruins game balance, you can drop it at will. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 12] Author : Wyrmbane Date : 02-28-04 05:15 PM Have you looked at the sphere's he can cast from? Usually a priest with good combat abilities doesn't have a whole lot of spheres to cast from, and not a whole lot he has major access to. Also, I'd be willing to bet he can't turn undead. He also doesn't have the HP of a fighter, and he doesn't have the XP table of a fighter. Let him fight all he wants, he's going to be one slow advancing SOB. Have you looked to see what the individual XP awards are for a priest? Let him keep swinging the sword, the party will soon have a fighter that is way better than the priest, and they'll have a low level priest. :) Where is the Crusader kit located? Nothing is coming to mind right now, and I don't feel like digging through everything. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 13] Author : Zythrst Greyeyes Date : 02-28-04 07:16 PM Actually its sort of presented as a Sub-Class in the PO:Spells and Magic. As far as restrictions I won't see it untill I play again next week. (its my book, but its hanging out at the DM's house for now) I suppose I wasn't really hacked off about really, that is untill the Justifier joined the game. As far as the Crusaders spheres these I know just based on what he's cast. Healing, Combat, Protection, Sun, Guardian. Nanosecond I play in this game and the DM is a good one, but have recently been joined by some reletive novices. Now we feel they both have good potential, but now I think Kits shouldn't be alowed untill they have more experience, I dunno. Its just they've started on fighters and seem to want to play these kits that allow them to be fighters in all but name. If your going to play a preist play a preist. Or hey even a fighter priest. Think on this way would you take a d8 vs a d10 and a few less used spheres in order to gain levels as a normal priest vs a fighter priest? All that being said this is way off topic by now, so I will ask a question on topic. Nanosecond rereading your original post I'm confused why is your system diferent than the normal one. Wasn't it an option to do this anyway? This brings up another point(sorry for the ramble), I recently purchased Baulders Gate 2 and noticed that xp was divided evenly between classes for multiclassed characters. Is this the normal way? We've always asigned xp to different class based on actions. IE if you pick a lock you get rogue xp for fighter/rogue, seeing as his fighters skills wern't honed in anyway. However if your fighter/mage used both sword and sorcery to slay his adversary then both classes are credited. Is this a house rule? I ask because our DM hardly ever has any house rules so I'd be surprised. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 14] Author : Sildatorak Date : 02-28-04 07:58 PM Originally posted by Zythrst Greyeyes All that being said this is way off topic by now, so I will ask a question on topic. Nanosecond rereading your original post I'm confused why is your system diferent than the normal one. Wasn't it an option to do this anyway? His system is just simplifying the advancement by keeping the levels of the classes the same. Normally a thief/wizard for example would be level 5/level 4 at 40,000 xp, then go to level 6/5 at 80k. In nanosecond's setup she'd be level 4/4 from 30k-60k and then jump straight to 5/5 and so on. Other than advancing the classes at the same time as if they had the average advancement value, the system is exactly the same as multiclassing. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 15] Author : Magespawn Date : 02-29-04 05:21 AM As far as the Crusaders spheres these I know just based on what he's cast. Healing, Combat, Protection, Sun, Guardian. You might what to reread 32 to 33, he has Major access to all, combat, guardian, healing, war, wards, if he's lawfull he get's major access to law, if he's chaotic he get's it in chaos . Minor in- necromatic, protection and he has some other minor abilities.:) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 16] Author : Sildatorak Date : 02-29-04 02:38 PM Originally posted by Magespawn Minor in- necromatic So no raise dead, ressurection, regeneration, restoration, or reincarnation. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 17] Author : Wyrmbane Date : 02-29-04 05:10 PM He'll only have 3rd level spells or lower in the Necromatic sphere. No turning undead either. :) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 18] Author : Magespawn Date : 02-29-04 05:13 PM So no raise dead, ressurection, regeneration, restoration, or reincarnation. Minor access means you only have the ability to cast 1st, 2nd, 3rd spells. :) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 19] Author : Bladesinger Date : 03-01-04 03:40 AM Originally posted by Zythrst Greyeyes I recently purchased Baulders Gate 2 and noticed that xp was divided evenly between classes for multiclassed characters. Is this the normal way? We've always asigned xp to different class based on actions. IE if you pick a lock you get rogue xp for fighter/rogue, seeing as his fighters skills wern't honed in anyway. However if your fighter/mage used both sword and sorcery to slay his adversary then both classes are credited. Is this a house rule? I ask because our DM hardly ever has any house rules so I'd be surprised. The second edition rules state that "A multi-class character improves in two or more classes simultaneously. His experience is divided equally between each class." So according to the rules, you'd just evenly divide any total experience gained for an adventure between the two levels, regardless of whether the character spent more time fighting, spellcasting, etc. Advancement won't necessarily be be exactly even though, because the character may have prime requisite bonuses which apply to only fighter XP (for high strength), or only to mage XP (for high intelligence), etc., although as a DM I don't use prime requisite bonsues anyways so I just divide XP evenly between the two classes. So yes, your DM's method of assigning XP for multi-classed characters is a house rule, although it does make more sense for the DM to award XP to specific classes depending on what skills were used by the character during the adventure. Personally, though, this isn't something I would bother with as a DM because most multi-classed characters will probably end up using a fairly even balance of skills from their differenent classes anyways, so it ususally isn't necessary to worry about whether or not they spent exactly half of their time using each set of skills. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 20] Author : Sildatorak Date : 03-01-04 07:22 PM Originally posted by Magespawn Minor access means you only have the ability to cast 1st, 2nd, 3rd spells. :) This I know. I was just pointing out that some of the spells that clerics are famous for are not within the Crusader's reach. Stupid bulletin board with no vocal inflection. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 21] Author : Wyrmbane Date : 03-01-04 08:27 PM Ah. No sweat. One of the problems with posting boards, no vocal inflections or body language. Leads to all sorts of confusion. :) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 22] Author : nolanjwerner Date : 03-06-04 02:37 AM I am actually doing something like this in my AD & D second edition game. Except that my big chance is that everyone has to multiclass, even humans. And you gain experience based on how much you use each class and there can only be 1 level difference (like 2/1 but not 3/1), so you have to use both of them. I am also making priests learn their spheres (like they do in Masque of the Red Death only its a little faster since they start with Major access to all and 1 sphere) but they are limited to 5 or 6 starting spheres and they have to acquire all of those before moving on to others. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 23] Author : Nanosecond Date : 03-06-04 04:03 AM The reasons I rewrote my multiclassing rules were: 1. I really didn't like the split in levels, simply because of the way hit points and other things were handled. 2. The dual class rules made no sense IMO. By treating the combined classes as one class, it made for a more uniform advancement. A mage/thief may favor either class, but he should paractice and train in both classes simultaneously (and probably would, otherwise, why is he multiclassing?). -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 24] Author : nolanjwerner Date : 03-06-04 04:43 AM dual class was interesting but as one person put it, humans are the people who want to have it all. I wish I could remember who siad that. I think that dual classing would work if no one could multiclass but having both of them is kind of silly. I think that allowing everyone to multiclass is fine but making them use both classes means they have to work harder. The fighter/mage wearing plate mail and firing arrows who casts 1 spell in the adventure will not get much wizard experience. I really try adn get my players into it. I ask them WHY is it this way? What made your guy want to be a fighter/mage or a cleric/thief (thats an interesting mix). BUt nanosecond, i must respectfully disagree with your multiclass system (note that I am saying this as a dissent and not a slam). A player must not only have both classes, they must USE them both. If a player uses one more then the other then the exprience should be skewed, I have no problem with taking the combat experience and, after dividing it up among the players, deciding what the class balance was (usually something simple like 50/50, 25,75, 2/3 and 1/3, etc., I am not going to be like, 47 percent for thief and 53 percent for mage), that way they have to actually actively use both classes or they will be held back. I think that leads to increasing the players ability to think and it helps their character concept. Putting them both together may work for some situations but I find it to be a gift rewarding players with advancement in abilities they may never use. That is why I think my system works better. I would be interested to hear your rebuttal. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 25] Author : Hiryu Date : 03-06-04 06:16 PM Well, since I use an extremely similar system to that of Nanosecond, I'll add my 2 cents of a peso. I cannot speak for nano, but for myself, I would much prefer the system we use to that you are suggesting, Nolan. Don't get me wrong, I do agree with your points, and I can see the advantages of your system, but the problem is logistics. Many parties can be book keeping nightmares as they are by following the core rules. When you allow every race to multiclass, then it becomes a nightmare. Granted, usualy the xp calculations are not done until the adventure is over, but it can become into an accounting job. But the biggest downside, I think, is cheating. (i.e. "oops!.... i gave both classes 60% xp 3 months ago"). I have been there all too often, and while using calculated experience tables also allows for some cheating room, it doesn't make it as easy as having separate xp tables. I wholy sympathize with your possition of wanting your players to do some character development, but there are many, many other ways than through the xp they recieve. As I see it, using calculated xp tables allows you to introduce more easily other rules that mechanically balance the game further. Take the xp bonuses and penalties, for instance. Most DM's do not use them because they are a pain in the assterisk. Most players don't use them either for the same reasons, even while they are human and have a 10% bonus. This xp modifiers are there to balance the game, but if the people do not use them, they become meaningless. I don't think anybody wants to sit there after the game and calculate how much experience they get, then how much bonus/penalty the add/remove, then how much they add to each class, then how much bonus the add for individual class prime requisites, and finally compare all of their xp tables to see if they got a lavel in one or more classes. It is just too impractical. Making it all go up with a single xp table solves this problems and lets you, as a DM, introduce xp modifiers without much problem. Take the +60% penalty drow I mention on a previous post on this thread. Under the system nano and I use, you can calculate that drow's xp table all the way to lvl30 if you want during character creation and you never have to worry about it again. With your system, you need to become an acountant after every session if you want to keep game balance on check. Both systems have their pros and cons, but I believe the one we use is the one with the less cons. After all, character development is up to the players and the DM, and your system cannot ensure that the characters will be put first, just that the players will try to use as much of every class as possible to get the perks and skills. Maybe your players don't, but most others out there will. There are many, many ways to encourage character development, so missing one of them in favor of running things more smoothly (and addressing some of the balance issues on 2ed while you're at it) sounds like a good trade to me, IMHO. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 26] Author : nolanjwerner Date : 03-06-04 11:28 PM I just think that allowing everyone to multiclass and making it mandatory not only gives versatility to a party (in case the cleric or thief doesn't show up, you don't get slaughtered) but it requires you to think a bit more about how you develop your characters, by thiking about why they belong in two classes adn what motivated them towards those it helps you to think. By the way, I dont know fi this is important or not but I go to an art school and most of the players are students there, so I am trying to draw on what they do already (in creating a character for a book or studying a character for a movie) to help them roleplay. I usually just make a ledger of when people have a clever idea and the monsters they kill, roleplaying, etc. and then i divide it at the end of the adventure. sometimes the awards are for one class and sometimes they are split. And as for division, it is usually something reasonably simple. I agree that there are many ways to encourage character development and I am not using divided experience as the only way, simply one way among many. I also threw out the experience bonuses and penalties. I felt that they, particualrly the class ones, made the characters grow in power far too quickly for my taste. Like I said before, the rules are guidelines and you get rid of the ones that do not work for you. I just think that by only have 1 Xp table, you reward the fighter/mage who sits in the rear and fires arrows at the enemies and casts one spell while wearing full plate. But I do see that my system is not perfect, I never claimed that it was. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 27] Author : Nanosecond Date : 03-07-04 07:40 PM I'd make multiclassing available to everyone, but I wouldn't make it mandatory. After all, why would someone who wants to play a single-classed character have to play a second class he doesn't want? If a multiclassed character, say, a fighter-mage, would prefer to shoot arrows, I'd have him choose spells that would complement his abilities and allow him to tailor them to his personal tastes. Let's say he knows magic missle. He could fire an "arrow" from his bow as his somatic gesture. It would have all the effects of a magic missile otherwise. Maybe the "arrow" will split up into multiple arrows at higher levels. This idea is on the fly so I haven't worked out the kinks in it yet. And he could use the armor spell to enhance his defenses. If I did notice the player playing one class exclusively, I'd talk to him about it. I would give him the option of changing to a single-classed PC if he wanted to. He wouldn't lose experience points orabilities, but he won't gain levels either. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Downloaded from Wizards Community (http://forums.gleemax.com) at 05-10-08 08:18 AM.