* * * Wizards Community Thread * * * -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Thread : Rookie DMing issues/Night Below Started at 02-25-04 03:19 AM by Flazzer Visit at http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=188930 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 1] Author : Flazzer Date : 02-25-04 03:19 AM Thread Title : Rookie DMing issues/Night Below I'm a newer DM using 2.5e rules. (It pleased me while reading threads on this board that so many others think that the 3/3.5e rules are haberdash and turn things into a mostly statplaying game). I finally got myself a group of players and I chose the Night Below for my campaign. We use a battlemap and figurines. I've already learned to edit treasure tables and rewards(I agree with those that believe that there are a few too many magical treasures everywhere in this campaign). So far, I have found it to be a pleasureable initial campaign. Ranchefus' life was ended by a fighter jumping off the rosewood table impaling the evil priest against the wall with his sword, the mines were cleared and the orcs desecrated. Now we are in the 2nd book and I am starting to find myself with problems. Monster Lairs...What are some things to be done here? My players charged into battle against the Hobgoblin's lair, the troll lair, the Troglodyte lair, etc... but it seems that, invariably. the same thing keeps happening: The PCs end up in the middle of a beat-down ring with the rest of the inhabitants standing in line to take the position of any fallen members. I've tried to stop this, like having the hobgoblin chieftain finish things off by throwing down his weapon and demand a brawl with the burliest PC, but it keeps happening. Any suggestions for me on this? My players never get a surprise attack because 2 of them have continual light cast upon their weapons. Leomund's Desirable Residence...Just how much weight can be carried in this thing? One of finest obstacels I can imagine when finding an underground treasure hoard is the question of how to get it out to the surface. My players have already hauled a couple tuns of water and some months worth of food inside. Being magical, does that mean the players can jam the thing full of gold and items until the door is bursting open and therefore put tens of thousands of gold pieces in the pocket of the mage? This seems like an awfully nice thing for the campaign to give the players before they even go into the underdark for the first time and experience some of the trials of rations and treasure hauling. My players are nearing Fandruzch the shadow dragon who has over 60,000 coins and I'm trying to find a way to make them feel more accomplished for getting the treasure to the surface beyond "We open the residence and put the gold in". And, lastly, character death. I now have PCs of Level 6+, and the risks are growing. Should a player die, what is the best way to keep them playing? They have already seen a major NPC fail a resurrection roll, and are getting nervous. Would I just let him/her create a new character of comprable level? That sounds hokey. There is no way the other players are going have what it takes to get a wish at this point to raise such a character, and I wouldn't want to lose a player. Thanks for taking the time read/reply to this. With the spread of 3/3.5e and my refusal to partake I thought I'd find myself with nowhere to turn with such questions. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 2] Author : hamiltri Date : 02-25-04 12:36 PM eh? 2.5e? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 3] Author : Hiryu Date : 02-25-04 03:18 PM I think that by 2.5 he means Skills & Powers. Now, as for your questions, I think you can vary the combats in different lairs easily when you start thinking about the creatures in a cultural sense. Culture not only affects the way they live and interact with others, but also the way they choose to defend their homes and the tactics they use. For instance, I can imagine the hobgoblins trying to outnumber and overwhelm the players as fast as they can until they have them cornered; I can picture the trolls using their keen senses of smell and infravision to literaly keep the players in the dark. Specially if we are talking about magical darkness. As for the troglodytes, if they are dwelling in a cave, I think they would lure the players through tunnels and openings until they force them through a really well guarded bottle neck. As for the treasure, you have to not only consider the weight, but also the bulks and sizes. I hate it when a munchkin 40th level Paladin/Priest/Bard human rides his young golden dragon to the great red wyrm's lair, kills the millenary creature with one clean swipe of his pinky toe and then carries out all of the treassure in his change purse. I say that if the players really want that treassure they should work for it. 60,000 is a LOT of money, specially in coins. If you keep in mind a gold coin is anything but small (they used much bigger and heavier coins back then), we are talking about some 20 large coffers full of treassure at the very least. How do you expect they can carry that out on a single trip? You have to explain this to your players and stress that they will need to come up with some plan. Maybe some can ride to the nearest town and rent (or hell, buy, they have 60,000 GP, for crying out loud) some carriages and hire some workers to help get the whole thing out. After that, they can do whatever they want with the money. After splitting it, I am sure they can buy a small castle or fort and retire with that kind of money... unless they have much bigger plans than that. (the party I was playing in spent 500,000 GP on researching and building a non-magical flying ship) As for character death, I guess that's your call, but personally, I NEVER kill characters even if I can bring them back to life. Of course there are exceptions to the rule, but it's done in extremely rare ocasions and only when it's needed for the story I have prepared. There is no easier way to alienate your players than to kill their characters, SPECIALLY their fevorite ones. If you are worried about the characters dying bicause of a misscalculated risk on your part, then there is a few things you can do. First of all, always throw your dice behind a DM screen, a book or whatever works. That way you can always budge any dice you need to for either making an NPC die faster or last longer. Another option is to use the 'Hovering on Death's Door' rule and let the characters hit -10 HP before dying, or better yet, last an ammount of rounds equal to their Con score (Con 14? they can get all the way to -14 HP). Finally, you can let them actually be revived during the first 5 rounds following death much in the same way somebody can be revived today by CPR. You can rule that any character with healing spells and healing proficiencies can revive a freshly dead comrade if they pass a ressurection survival check against half their score rounded down. (a character with ressurection chances of 95% would need a 47 or less to be revived in this way) It is important that you remember one vital rule of roleplaying: if you kill the characters and don't revive them, you will alienate your players; if you kill and revive the characters often, you will not only alienate your players, but you will also make them roll their eyes at you and loose all respect for the DM. Bottom line, do not kill characters unless you absolutely need to. Hope that helps. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 4] Author : Wyrmbane Date : 02-25-04 08:43 PM I have the box set still in shrinkwrap, and have only played in it up to a point, so I can't help you with the adventure per se. I can offer some tidbits of advice as a DM, but Hiryu has pretty much covered what I would have told you. I will add some comments on character death. If you don't have a good reason to kill a PC, DON'T. If the players are playing good and smart, beat them, bludgeon them, torture them, scare them, but don't kill them. Fudge the dice rolls if you have to. Always use the "hovering on death's door". It allows you plenty of wiggle room to scare the bejesus out of them and keep them on their toes. Make sure you allow a little time for first aid though, and if necessary to give that time, have a few timely monster fumbles. If their playing dumb and cocky, they deserve what they get, IMO. Let the thief slip away from the party and climb that tower. Only you and I know the vampire can always be found there. :) One final note on treasure: He that giveth can taketh away. Securing that treasure is sometimes easy. Surviving with all that loot on the way out is another matter entirely. You can always claim a cut for the lord of the land, or taxes, or just general maintenence of themselves. You'd be suprised how many friends (not to mention enemies) you have when you flash lots of coin (or jewels or gems!) around town. Gotta love the big spenders that like to impress the ladies with the PP tips. >;) Above all, make it exciting, make if challenging, but MAKE IT FUN. That's why we're playing the darn game! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 5] Author : gadjira Date : 02-26-04 10:15 AM I agree that if you don't let PC's actually die off then players will lose respect for the DM. When I run a campaign my players know that I do not treat their characters with kid gloves & make things easy on them, especially low level characters. I've even killed one guy off 3 times in one night. (once when he wandered off from the party, once when he just got hit in the back by another party member & once more when he got poisoned by a monster) Each time he had to roll up a new character but because of the way the current storyline was being handled it was EXTREMELY easy to work them back in with the party. I don't believe in babying characters & my players actually appreciate it. They tend to earn alot of XP on my campaigns & have actually complained when I make it too easy on them. They know that even though they are facing tough situations they will be well rewarded at the end of the night. PC death is a necessary part of the game because if the only death that takes place is story driven then they will tend to do more stupid things like wander away because they know they can survive no matter what. My players have learned to trust each other & trust me that I will do the right thing. Yes that means that sometimes a favorite character dies, but its just part of the game. Im sure everyone has lost a favorite character to something stupid. When I was playing I lost my favorite character to a Cloak of Poison while in a blizzard then blew the ressurection roll. I was more annoyed that I had failed the res roll then about the actual death. Its just a part of the game & a few deaths along the road makes the stories alot more interesting. :) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 6] Author : SnowbearK Date : 02-28-04 03:27 AM Thread Title : Re: Rookie DMing issues/Night Below I hope the orcs were decimated, as desecrating orcs is something better left to the Mature Boards. ;) :D Seriously though, this is one of my all-time favorite campaign-adventures (next to Dragon Mountain). Congrats on Ranche's end, sweet imagery. :) As for the Monster Lairs, if your PCs are really being that stupid, let them die. Once they hit the Duergar and the "real" Night Below, they'll need a few harsh lessons or else you're in for a MASSIVE headache. LDR is an amazing thing...since it's technically shrunk down and completely transformed, it can in fact hold any amont of weight that a normal home of such type would hold -- btw, wait until your PCs get the brilliant idea of using it as a bridge. Note also that there aren't a whole lot of places where it can be safely used. Just "open the residence and put the gold in" can be dangerous itself, as 60,000gp is going to take a LOT of time to gather and toss. Two words: Roaming Monsters. Character Death: Let the bastard die. I have no problem letting the Player roll up a new PC. Ground rules first though. New PC starts a 1 level lower than the lowest PC in the group. If the dead PC WAS the lowest-level PC in the group, then the new PC starts one level below him. And you better have a good story for this guy too, but don't worry about working him in, the group will find him soon enough (usually as a prisoner, or perhaps a lost traveler looking for someone already dead, maybe the new guy is related to the old guy and was looking for him, who knows?). It's not that hokey, nor is it really a stretch of the imagination. People meet people all the time. Adventurers hook up with other adventurers on a lark in anonymous taverns every day. So long as the introduction's brief and there's a half-way believable story behind it, get it over with and proceed with the game -- they'll be too occupied by what's coming at them in the dark to worry about the new guy. As a footnote, I ALWAYS tell my players to keep a BackupPC on hand, and when the lowest PC goes up a level, to level up the BPC in their spare time. Saves time if the worst happens. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 7] Author : Bladesinger Date : 03-02-04 04:18 AM Just a few comments to add to the advice that's been given above. First, about killing PCs, I agree totally with Hiryu and Wyrmbane - don't kill them. Having the PCs captured, taking their equipment away, or using other consequences can provide more than sufficient reason for the players to remain reasonably cautious without having to worry about losing their characters. If the players don't have to worry about their characters being killed, they are probably more likely to enjoy the game more, since they can have their characters be courageous and take risks when appropriate, and then learn from their mistakes if things don't go as planned. The idea of killing a character and having the player use a replacement character doesn't seem like a good idea to me, since it makes it impossible for the players to develop a character in any significant way. I thought I was one of the few DMs that doesn't kill PCs, so it's nice to see that there are others DMs out there who also don't kill their players' characters. About the encounters, I don't have the adventure you're using, so I can't give you any specific advice. As far as general adivce, it sounds like some of the problems you're having with the encounters are a result of the PCs clustering together to keep the enemies from attacking more than one PC at a time. Since this is probably a consequence of using minatures for combat, there might not be much that you can do about it, although if you can find a way to separate the group members on occasion (i.e., using a trap, diversion, etc. to get the group to split up), the odds might shift in the enemies' favour since they could then surround smaller groups more effectively. Also, if the PCs always try to remain clustered, an area-effect weapon or spell, such a fireball, a large pit trap, etc., can be particulary effective against them and encourage them to adopt different tactics. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 8] Author : Sarta Date : 03-02-04 08:15 PM One of the suggestions made in the book repeatedly is that the pc's start hiring henchmen. The idea is that they can establish a base camp for henchmen and use them to defend this base camp and to ferry food, water, and other supplies down while ferrying treasure and hostages out. It would seem to me that henchmen would resolve a couple of your problems -- beefing up the fighting forces of your party and what to do with all the loot. You may want to suggest that the pc's look into this. Sarta -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 9] Author : Wyrmbane Date : 03-02-04 08:27 PM One of the things you learn fast, never bunch up. You just die faster that way. Bladesinger has a good idea there, if they are clustered up. Frag them!. They'll learn quickly to keep some distance but stay within mutual support range. And you thought all those real life lessons only applied to Marines. :) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 10] Author : Magespawn Date : 03-03-04 12:38 AM My favorite is having the 4 1/2 foot character behind the 6 foot tall human and wasting the shorter characters attack, or like Bladesinger said using a radius spell in tight conditions (whether it be the parties mage or cleric or the enemies) makes for a good way to made the party think twice about clustering around each other. :schemes: The best thing about being the DM is that nothing and I mean nothing is set in stone, for instance you could have an evil cleric,shaman,mage etc.. running around with a ring of improved invisibility casting spells on their items to temporary render that majic item useless for certain periods of time or ruining their food and water supplies, or even have mixed in with the gold they find some cursed coins or coin creatures ( the name of the creature escapes me right now but it's in one of the monstrous manuals, it looks just like a gold piece). Remember if their in a fight with a Shadow Dragon what happens should some of his spells makes contact with the piled up gold and majic items. :smirk: -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 11] Author : OldDungeonMaster Date : 03-05-04 01:26 PM Thread Title : Character Mortality If there is no risk, the players won't respect the game. They have to die, or get penalized in some manner if they make bad choices. Just because your running a module doesn't mean you can't adlib. If they can't resurrect a character who's passed on themselves then they have to pursue that elsewhere. That means a little side trip to some priest who can get the job done, for a service, or perhaps some faustian bargain with an evil spirit in the dungeon who shows up when the character perishes and demands the characters find something in the dungeon for the spirit. You have to use your imagination. I would have gone the faustian route with the character who failed the ressurection. Who knows what the party might have been willing to do to get their guy back. Remember, the rules are just guidelines, you as DM can do as you like, so long as you appear fair and impartial. When things go against the party that's just another opportunity to have a little side adventure. As for carrying out the loot. Whatever their encumbrance is that's the limit without adding gimmicks. They'll sort through the dross, hide it, and take the best out with them. Gems are usually the best to carry as they are worth a lot but don't weigh a lot. Make your rolls in secret, make theirs in public. Old Dungeon Master -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 12] Author : nolanjwerner Date : 03-06-04 02:41 AM To be hoenst this is a little touchy. As much as I want to have the players happy, at some point you may wish to kill a character just to show that you mean business. I would do it the first time in a wya that they can easily be brought back to life, but that would do enough to show the players they should be more careful. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 13] Author : Bladesinger Date : 03-06-04 05:33 PM I think the character death issue depends on what type of game you want to run. I perfer to run a game where the characters are developed from first-level and gradually improve their abilities. This way, the players can remember what their character was like at low-level and can clearly see the progress their character has made. If a player's character is killed, and replaced with another, then this disrupts the whole effect of having a single character developed gradually. Secondly, I'm not a fan of reviving characters if they're killed. If players know their character can simply be brought back to life, then this tends to elminate the entire mood of the game. Such events should, in my opinion, be very rare, or else they will start to seem routine. I know that AD&D is a fantasy setting with powerful magic, I personally try to tone this down somewhat though. Finally, I can think of a lot of ways to penalize characters sufficiently without killing them. Taking away their equipment and treasure can be particularly effective, since it will have taken the characters a lot of time to accumulate these items. Similarly, having them captured by their enemies and having to escape is another good way to show that their actions have consequences to them. Both of these methods also serve to make the story more interesting, since it provides setbacks that the characters have to deal with. I can understand why some DMs prefer to kill player characters, but I find that I'd rather keep the characters alive and focus on the storyline. But as I said above, it really depends on what type of game you want to run. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Downloaded from Wizards Community (http://forums.gleemax.com) at 05-10-08 08:18 AM.