* * * Wizards Community Thread * * * -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Thread : Out Of Print But On The Table Started at 02-26-04 03:25 PM by HumanTorch Visit at http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=189890 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 1] Author : HumanTorch Date : 02-26-04 03:25 PM Thread Title : Out Of Print But On The Table I want some opinions from the folks here. Do you think that Wizards Of The Coast now Hasbro is obligated to support the open-ended games like original D&D and AD&D? Now I gave the latest version a try but its too trendy and heavy ruled. Honestly, I could scream all day about how much I hate it. But thats not what this is about. What about alternatives? I'd like to see a reprint of the original system and followed up by new adventures in the original format. Anybody else agree with this? Thanks for reading this! ;) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 2] Author : Edgewaters Date : 02-26-04 03:28 PM Well, I would like to see Moldvay hired to edit Companion and Masters rules for OD&D. But I'm dreaming. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 3] Author : beavis123 Date : 02-26-04 03:31 PM Thread Title : wake up and smell the coffee D20 is the furture. Is it difficult at first, yes. But once you get it, it opens alot of doors. Your dream of reliving the past, is just that. a dream. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 4] Author : HumanTorch Date : 02-26-04 03:55 PM Thread Title : Re: wake up and smell the coffee Originally posted by beavis123 D20 is the furture. Is it difficult at first, yes. But once you get it, it opens alot of doors. Your dream of reliving the past, is just that. a dream. I wasn't asking someone like you. Please, keep it civil. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 5] Author : Hiryu Date : 02-26-04 06:54 PM D20 is the future??? Dificult at first??? If D20 has a future is because they are cramming that lobotomized RPG system down our throats with adverts, NOT because it is a good system. It is symplistic, unbalanced, and not in a single page has a rule with the DM in mind. It is a system engeneered for players, specially power players, because... well, guess who buys the most books? This is not about reliving the past. Most of us old players were looking forward to 3E, but what they delivered was a poor quality product. I guess some of us want more quality and thought put into the products that are sold to us than you do. If you want to go play 3E, go right ahead. Go nuts. The rest of us will look for quality gaming. And on that note... does anybody know if they released Castles & Crusades, yet? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 6] Author : Edgewaters Date : 02-26-04 08:43 PM Thread Title : Re: wake up and smell the coffee Originally posted by beavis123 D20 is the furture. Is it difficult at first, yes. But once you get it, it opens alot of doors. Your dream of reliving the past, is just that. a dream. Unfortunately, that is not reality. The fact is the pnp gaming market is dwindling rapidly and has been for some time now. The total market is now less than one-third what it was at the peak of the industry, and worse, is fractured between many different competitors. There will be no recovery and the past will remain the Golden Age of rpging. I think it has alot to do with the fact that what was once a novel idea has been explored to an absurd degree in its newer incarnations, which fail to capture that sense of novelty which made the idea once so popular. That popularity will never be recovered; d20 isn't the future, it's a pale imitation of the past. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 7] Author : WizzyBlackmore Date : 02-26-04 10:18 PM Well said EW, I am trying my best to collect as much 1st Ed. D&D/AD&D material as I can!!!! Once it's gone....... ....maybe seeing Ghost Tower of Inverness Wintercon Mod go for $1000 on Ebay triggered something Asimovian in me....'have foresight....look to the future, but remember the past".......well the future of RPG's looks a bit cheesy...so.......I will preserve what once was all that is great in RPGing:angel: -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 8] Author : Magespawn Date : 02-26-04 10:52 PM I like some of the things that you are saying, but I don't think that Hasbro is obligated to support early versions of D&D/AD&D, just like Microsoft isn't obligated to support earlier versions of Windows. It would be nice but corporations don't look back at past success they only look on what future gains they can earn. I knew that when when Wizards of Coast was bought out by Hasbro and talk was that a new system was coming out, I immediately went out and bought any and everything I could for D&D/AD&D, and sure enough when their so called conversion book ( Ha:thumbsdow, pamplet) came out I new that that was the end of AD&D. But I do think that from a business sense that it be smart for Hasbro to release a few items a year so the gamers who haven't switched and will not switch ( myself included) could still enjoy what stuff they own and Hasbro could make money off of some modules and accessories ( say for instance converting some of there new 3ed. modules over to 2ed.) :pile: -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 9] Author : Twilight_Knight Date : 02-27-04 02:41 AM Thread Title : Re: Re: wake up and smell the coffee Originally posted by Edgewaters The fact is the pnp gaming market is dwindling rapidly and has been for some time now. The total market is now less than one-third what it was at the peak of the industry, and worse, is fractured between many different competitors. There will be no recovery and the past will remain the Golden Age of rpging. From what I've read, while the market share of individual companies within the RPG genre has dwindled due to competition, the release of 3E acutally created the largest influx of new customers in the history of RPG's. So whether or not we wish there would be a move back to the "old" way, it is just not supported by WoTC's customer base and the demand for more of the same. I think that the greatest tragedy to befall RPG's was the advent of card games like Magic and Pokemon. Those "immediate" gratification games stole the young, up and coming gamers that would have supported D&D. I see it every time I go to the game store. They don't even have any RPG's on the schedule anymore. Just Magic tournaments and an occasional mini skirmish game. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 10] Author : beavis123 Date : 02-27-04 06:54 AM Thread Title : card games it's true the rpg market is dying. and it's true that card games and video games are killing it. but also the "old fuddy-duddies" who say " I am playing 2nd ed, everything else is CRAP", hurt also. I played 1/2 E, and many other games over the years. I pride myself on enjoying the role-playing and falling in love with game mechanics. And i am proud not to be " an old fuddy-duddy" Nough said -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 11] Author : Edgewaters Date : 02-27-04 09:46 AM Thread Title : Re: Re: Re: wake up and smell the coffee Originally posted by Twilight_Knight From what I've read, while the market share of individual companies within the RPG genre has dwindled due to competition, the release of 3E acutally created the largest influx of new customers in the history of RPG's. So whether or not we wish there would be a move back to the "old" way, it is just not supported by WoTC's customer base and the demand for more of the same. I think that the greatest tragedy to befall RPG's was the advent of card games like Magic and Pokemon. Those "immediate" gratification games stole the young, up and coming gamers that would have supported D&D. I see it every time I go to the game store. They don't even have any RPG's on the schedule anymore. Just Magic tournaments and an occasional mini skirmish game. That's true of course, but what do you really expect? Every generation needs something new. Of course there is no demand for the old systems, most of us who play them already have all the books we can handle (and probably wouldn't take to new releases all that well). What made D&D great was the novelty of it, for me. It was fresh and new, an idea that hadn't been explored and held all kinds of hidden potentials and room to develop without reinventing the wheel. Should younger generations be as interested in it as we were? NO! Of course not! They have their own, newer things to explore. There's nothing wrong with that. I've played video games, even tried out a Star Wars card game a few times, it was all quite fun. Fact is, you can't force the newer generation to get all that excited about pnp rpg's (except perhaps a niche market) and you can't force the majority of us "old timers" to adopt newer systems that don't have the same feeling for us. Its just the way it is. But I'll still dream about a Moldvay edition of the Companion and Masters sets :cool: -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 12] Author : Yorlum Date : 02-27-04 10:00 AM I have to agree. As an avid wargamer, as well as a D&D player since '77, I have seen the board wargame go from almost mainstream to eyebrow-raising oddity. SPI and AH were unable to adapt to changing times [among many other business errors which are not germane], and their product stayed pretty much the same, which did not bring in any new people to the market. With D&D, much as I love 1st ed, and would love to run campaigns of it now, it is not what the kids out there want to see. They came to the game from PC 'rpgs' [note the quotes, as I think we can all agree that there is no 'rp' in a pc 'rpg'], and want a system that mimics what they are used to, where their player may have areas in which they can excel, but nothing is forbidden them. They want clearly-defined rules for their chances at accomplishing various tasks [non-weapon proficiencies]. They want to do things that their class doesn't typically 'do' [cross-class, easy multi-classing]. They want to have 'super-charges' like when Mario eats a mushroom or something [feats]. So WoTC gave them 3rd ed. Now, don't get me wrong, I find 3rd ed a major step up from 2nd [if FAR inferior to the original]; the thing is, that's what it will take to keep the game from drying up and going the way of board wargames. As it is, my son plays at his school with a group of other kids. I am able to sit in with the teacher in the gaming club and nudge them to better roleplaying...They have fun, and I think that I'm helping them play better. That couldn't have happened if not for 3rd ed. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 13] Author : Thailfi Date : 02-27-04 10:13 AM it's true the rpg market is dying. and it's true that card games and video games are killing it. but also the "old fuddy-duddies" who say " I am playing 2nd ed, everything else is CRAP", hurt also. I played 1/2 E, and many other games over the years. I pride myself on enjoying the role-playing and falling in love with game mechanics. And i am proud not to be " an old fuddy-duddy" Nough said My group had played 1e/2e for 23 years. We have spent a few thousand dollars on this game over the years. We said "You know what? We don't feel like throwing all this perfectly good roleplaying stuff in the garbage to buy all new stuff. We don't feel like taking the vast amount of time it will take us to become as familiar with the new rules as we are with the old rules. We have families now and more important things to concentrate on. We'll keep the game we have thanks." This makes us "old fuddy-duddys"? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 14] Author : Hiryu Date : 02-27-04 11:22 AM The other guys bring some really good points. What Thailfi mentioned is particularily important, given Beavis123's remarks. (which I think speaks for most of 3E's supporters) Personally, I love 2ed, but I don't think everything else is crap. I have played a good many other systems and I have found them very enjoyable, specially World of Darkness and most of the Palladium material. The issue here is product quality, of which 3E has none compared to most RPG's previous and current. We who despise 3E's guts are not killing it, the ones that are is hasbro themselves. With such a flaky system intended to create power players, it was obvious from the get go that it was going to alienate a great mayority of old players. That is NEVER a good business desition. You just don't try to create a new client base by pi$$ing off your regulars. Specially when those regulars span several hundred websites. (and guess what is the comunication media of choice for most roleplayers?) As a consumer, you cannot blame me for the fall of the RPG market if I don't consider the new (over priced) products to be worthy of my money. Those are basic economic principles that they teach you in junior high, for pete's sake. Also, blaming the TCG's market for taking away the RPG's money is ridiculous. First of all, most RPG players also play a TCG, and most TGC players also play RPG's or at least have the curiosity to. They are closely related markets with nearly the exact same demographics. Want to talk about facts? Want to know why TCG's are going up while RPG's are falling apart? It's because of D20, plain and simple. The initial success of 3E was not a superior game system, a more appealing design or a good quality; it was better and more efficient advertising, plain and simple. You can sell a snail to somebody and convince them it was the best desition they ever made, and as a big corporation dedicated to selling crap to kids, Hasbro knows this all too well. However, you cannot keep the illusion for long, which is why this companies have to keep comming up with new products and you see an almost unrecognizable product line from holiday season to holiday season. When 3E came out, the RPG market hit an all-time high because of this advertising, which most of us, (grudgingly) saw as a great thing for RPG's. Now roleplaying is steadily going down, and why? because the product simply couldn't live up to the hype. New products sales are getting stale fast, while vintage, out-of-print products are steadily going up (up to trice as much buying and selling as when 2ed was at it's height). Some of this vintage shoppers are people who actually started with 3E. You mean to tell me this is a coincidence? A carefuly deviced plot by 2ed gamers? A conspiracy against 3E/Hasbro/WotC? I think not. I, for one, am looking forward to the new Castles & Crusades. Out of all the new systems, that appears to be the most promising. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 15] Author : Arashi Ravenblade Date : 02-27-04 12:58 PM I prefer 3e to the fact the the first time through the book i understood what the writers were telling me...when i played 2e i was always forgetting what to do or having to read the book multiple times because no offense to anyone but the rules were bunk and confusing... MAgic while tis a fun game ruined any chance of another good game being made...without it being a total ripoff that is. Pokemon while i still play the game ruined it for anyone who wanted to be taken seriously in the card game hobby. But the real fact is what WOTC has done for DND reviltalized the gaming industry...i can understand not wanting to spend more money but thats the reason i wont ever buy 4th edition unless its more of and update like 3.5 was and its the reason i wont be buying white wolf new world of darkness...not becasue they wont be good games but because im not respending the money. So not wanting to spend the money over again does not one a fuddy duddy but being set in your ways and refusing to change for no other reason the stubborness does make one a fuddy duddy. however if you have someother reason for not likeing something thats your own opinion. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 16] Author : beavis123 Date : 02-27-04 01:14 PM Thread Title : living in the past what ever the reason for the dying RPG, it's going. If you like the old rules, "I say enjoy." You can't afford the new high priced games, what a cop out!! The fact is 3rd ed is here, and earlier additions are heading for the retirement castle (the simpsons). enjoy all you Grand Pa Simpsons out there!!! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 17] Author : diaglo Date : 02-27-04 01:48 PM Thread Title : Re: living in the past Originally posted by beavis123 The fact is 3rd ed is here fact is the 2000ed is OoP.:smirk: i'm with You Human Torch...but you knew that. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 18] Author : Simi Date : 02-27-04 01:55 PM I don't think anyone will be able to win a debate over which edition is better. Everyone has their own styles and preferences. I personally play 2ed. I have looked at plenty of the 3.0 & 3.5 books and personally find 2ed to be better for me. I have been playing 2ed since I was 15yrs old and have no plans to change that at this time. If that makes me a fuddy duddy at the ripe old age of 24, so be it. I'm happy. :D I would like to see new material for 2ed though. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 19] Author : Polymorph Date : 02-27-04 02:28 PM This question might seem a bit dumb, but could you please tell me, what it is, that makes up a "quality" PnP? Is it recocnizability? Simple rules? Complex rules? Or plain being diffrent? And why is 3e not a quality RPG? I dont say that i disagree. I only want you to make your point more clearly. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 20] Author : WizzyBlackmore Date : 02-27-04 03:26 PM Why is this thread here anyways?? Take it away!! 1st Ed. blows them all away.....:behold: :behold: :behold: -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 21] Author : beavis123 Date : 02-27-04 05:12 PM Thread Title : 1ed interesting 1st ed ...blows them away. what are you insane. Do you realize this is not 1982?????? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 22] Author : Sildatorak Date : 02-27-04 05:52 PM As a player of 2, 3, and 3.5 (though I'm running off the SRD for the second two, like hell I'm going to pay $30 for something I can download for free), I have to say that it isn't the game mechanics that are responsible for the degredation of role playing. What is the difference between having 95% hide in shadows and a +21 bonus on your hide check? Having the awareness nonweapon proficiency and the awareness feat? The only earth-shaking changes between the system mechanics are the flexibility in class selection, the rescaling of ability bonuses, and the new system for creation of magical items. The first doesn't have that much impact on the quality of the game (it does contribute slightly to humans in funny suits syndrome), the second actually makes more sense in the 3e system (it changes the numbers slightly, but makes it so you don't suddenly get crazy bonuses to AC for going up two points of dex), and the third is what I consider to be the biggest flaw in the system. IMHO if you took away the item creation feats in 3.x, the "I buy a vorpal sword and 10 healing potions" economy would collapse. Relying on magical equipment to define the character is what I consider to be the only significant flaw of 3.x. Other than that, I just blame WotC for not putting as much innovation into their products. Where are the interwoven stories of Al-Qadim? Where is the sense of wonder from Planescape? Not at WotC, because they are ¢ in a $ world. My biggest beef is with WotC/Hasbro is that they put out material designed for the biggest audience and they lose a lot of the flavor doing so. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 23] Author : Edgewaters Date : 02-27-04 06:40 PM Originally posted by Polymorph This question might seem a bit dumb, but could you please tell me, what it is, that makes up a "quality" PnP? Is it recocnizability? Simple rules? Complex rules? Or plain being diffrent? And why is 3e not a quality RPG? I dont say that i disagree. I only want you to make your point more clearly. One word: innovation. Everything that can be explored in rpg gaming, has been explored. It's unfortunate for the new generation in a way, because they won't get that sense of wonder that we did about it all, but, on the other hand, they have new things to get the same feeling from ... video games, card games, etc ... though I guess these things are reaching the same point, there is still quite a bit of room for innovation left. Is there anything "less intelligent" about these new forms of gaming? I don't think so. Compare say the original Keep on the Borderlands release and say, Civilization 3 or something ... it's a valid and intelligent form of gaming that has matured beyond it's Pac-Man and Mario Bros. roots. Just let pnp die peacefully I say. It's had its time. There will always be a niche that is interested, just like there are still folks out there who still enjoy AH-style board wargames. But as a mass entertainment its time has passed. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 24] Author : Polymorph Date : 02-27-04 09:04 PM Just let pnp die peacefully I say. That's not an answer i would have expected... Maybe I don't quite understand your point, but i think that you are plain wrong. Everyting has been explored already you say? I'd rather say that everyone explores pnp for himself and even if people like you think they have seen it all, why should that mean, that everyone else has? Why should the pnp genre die? There are new systems created constanly and in order to overcome the other pnps they HAVE to be innovative. For pete's sake, there are pnps that are played by tarrot cards and others, where they players are children who try to hide from the monsters under their beds! It's had its time. There will always be a niche that is interested, just like there are still folks out there who still enjoy AH-style board wargames. But as a mass entertainment its time has passed. PnPs arn't as popular and "new to the world" as they used to be back in the days, and even if it's time of mass entertainment is over, i guess most of the posters here would welcome a turn away from mainstream and back to the "underground" featuring more flavor and background and less statbusting. Now wouldn't that be a new golden age of pnps?:smirk: I would love to here more opinions on what defines a "quality" pnp. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 25] Author : pkloop Date : 02-27-04 10:41 PM I think that the new eds (and I'm a 3.5 player currently) are being designed more for a younger crowds idea of gaming. They want high-powered high magic stat-busting PCs. This is what the market is catering to. Our group jokingly calls it D&D the Gathering :) The younger players at our table are more concerned with the all powerful feats and magic and playing epic level pcs from day 1 rather than building up a pc from level 1. However even with 3/3.5 you can play the old way. I do and after a while we even started convincing the young guys of the merits and fun of slowly building a PC up. 3/3.5 doesn't kill this off..rather its how its played that does. Don't know if this makes much sense but thats my .02 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 26] Author : SnowbearK Date : 02-28-04 02:58 AM Thread Title : Re: Out Of Print But On The Table Originally posted by HumanTorch I want some opinions from the folks here. Do you think that Wizards Of The Coast now Hasbro is obligated to support the open-ended games like original D&D and AD&D? Now I gave the latest version a try but its too trendy and heavy ruled. Honestly, I could scream all day about how much I hate it. But thats not what this is about. What about alternatives? I'd like to see a reprint of the original system and followed up by new adventures in the original format. Anybody else agree with this? Thanks for reading this! ;) 1) No. Hell, TSR wasn't "obligated" to support the game systems either. No company is ever "obligated" to support ANYTHING they make unless they make a claim to support it or it is found to be defective in some way that might cause harm to a person. 2) That having been said, it's a good idea for companies to do so, as it keeps customers happy. 3) Lizards of the Host and Hasborg are not going to reprint anything from pre-3rd Edition, and likely won't reprint anything from pre-3.5 Edition. To the Hivemind, 3.5 is their product, anything that came before is the past. 4) They did license out the game system and many IPs associated with AD&D to Kenzer & Co. who turned it into Hackmaster. That's about as new material as you're going to get. 5) this is sad, yes, but it is the truth. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 27] Author : Edgewaters Date : 02-28-04 12:38 PM Originally posted by Polymorph PnPs arn't as popular and "new to the world" as they used to be back in the days, and even if it's time of mass entertainment is over, i guess most of the posters here would welcome a turn away from mainstream and back to the "underground" featuring more flavor and background and less statbusting. Now wouldn't that be a new golden age of pnps?:smirk: [/B] Ah but the era of "statbusting" came after pnp gaming had already declined and left the mainstream .... the era of high flavour and background *was* its mainstream era (early to mid 80s was the largest market share the industry ever saw) "Statistical" D&D took shape towards the end of 1e, wholly comprised 2e, and seems to be alive and kicking in the new edition from what I have seen. For all the talk about "streamlining" the game is once again supplement-driven. When D&D was in its first, "underground" incarnations the rules fit into a 60 or 70 page booklet .... And unfortunately I don't see alot of flavour and background coming out of 3e ... what else explains the phenomena of 3e players so obsessed with converting material from older editions ... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 28] Author : beavis123 Date : 02-28-04 01:09 PM Thread Title : yeah ok 3e players are not obsessed with converting old modules to d20. have you ever made a full campaign with balanced monsters, encounters, and treasure. probably not. It's a long hard thankless job. Finding the outline of "older " modules to use as a basis, cuts your work and head aches in half. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 29] Author : hamiltri Date : 02-28-04 01:27 PM Do you think that Wizards Of The Coast now Hasbro is obligated to support the open-ended games like original D&D and AD&D? Obligated to support original d&d, no. Personally I don't think I'd like WoTC touching older D&D, there are just two different styles. I don't know if WoTC could do the originals justice Actually Kenzerco - http://www.kenzerco.com has bought the rights/license to 1e/2e. So I'm not sure WoTC CAN support older editions at the moment. Now I gave the latest version a try but its too trendy and heavy ruled. Honestly, I could scream all day about how much I hate it. But thats not what this is about. I agree What about alternatives? I'd like to see a reprint of the original system and followed up by new adventures in the original format. Anybody else agree with this? I do, but most likely the closest you'll find is hackmaster. Thanks for reading this! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 30] Author : Edgewaters Date : 02-28-04 03:52 PM Originally posted by hamiltri I'd like to see a reprint of the original system and followed up by new adventures in the original format. Anybody else agree with this? [/B] I think they should just make some of it public domain. Did Kenzer ever buy the rights to the "classic" line of boxed sets, the co-owned Arneson/Gygax non-Adnd line? If not these might be a good choice though I'm not sure how it would affect trademark rights vis a vis the name "Dungeons and Dragons". I don't see this as essentially profitable for them to do a reprint, half the market that would be interested would already have copies. So sales would likely be few and far between even if marketed aggressively. As far as adventures this would likely just get all the 3e players upset. They seem to be pretty defensive as it is. Since that's the paying market it's probably best not to alienate them. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 31] Author : Edgewaters Date : 02-28-04 03:55 PM Thread Title : Re: yeah ok Originally posted by beavis123 3e players are not obsessed with converting old modules to d20. have you ever made a full campaign with balanced monsters, encounters, and treasure. probably not. It's a long hard thankless job. Finding the outline of "older " modules to use as a basis, cuts your work and head aches in half. How does ripping a storyline save you any of the headache of balancing encounters in a new system? All I see that it does is provides a storyline and leaves you with the work of doing the statistics. If it was the other way around, it would make sense. Just goes to prove my point. The new gaming community is stat-obsessed and finds imagination frustrating. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 32] Author : beavis123 Date : 02-28-04 04:11 PM Thread Title : denied work smarter not harder. if there is a game supplement out there ie. old module, Dragon magazine article, video game adventure, use it. If you had so many brilliant ideas why did you buy the old modules???????? check please!!!!!!!!!!!! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 33] Author : WizzyBlackmore Date : 02-28-04 08:18 PM Beavis you may not know (because of age) the incredible feeling of nostalgia/memories playing 1st. Ed. D&D brings me (and many friends). When I play, it is 1982 back to 1979 all over again......a great portal to my past......... Cranking the appropriate music also helps!!! Rush, Tull, Saga, Pink Floyd, Zep, etc........... I'll stand by my statement that 1st. Ed. kicks :censored::censored::censored::censored::censored::D :D :D -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 34] Author : kylyn Date : 03-03-04 10:23 PM It has been about 5 years since I role played last. I started on 2nd edition back in 1991 as the only female gamer in our group. Will it be difficult for me to find a new group playing 2nd edition or do i need to convert? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 35] Author : Magespawn Date : 03-03-04 11:12 PM Will it be difficult for me to find a new group playing 2nd edition No but it will take a little bit of web searching, you can also post some 3/5 cards up at hobby and comic shops. That how I did it, I got so many replies I had to turn away people. :) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 36] Author : nolanjwerner Date : 03-06-04 02:58 AM Guys, the older rules are not set in stone. If a rule is imbalancing, slows the game down or doesn't work then don't use it. I agree that 3E (from what I have seen) does seem to be more power oriented. Regarding the 2E thing, I have had no problem using 1E and 2E and even some Original D and D stuff interchangeably (or with minimal changes but nothing that would require an insane amount of work) but 3E does not even follow along with that. I prefer using 2E but that is because that is what I played almost the entire time I roleplayed and I dont have the money for a new set of rulebooks. If I see something I like in another book (or movie, etc.) then i adapt it. I thought Third Edition would be like an expanded version of the skills and powers rules at first, building on top of what was already done. Personally, I would love to make a site called like adnd2e.com/realdnd/dnd.com/dndo12/oopdnd or something along those lines where it was dedicated to keeping everything before third edition alive and focusing on that. We could have articles, modules, stories, it would be like Dragon and Dungeon magazine together back before they switched over to 3E entirely (we could do classes and articles on races, creatures, treasures, settings, weapons, ships and thousands of other things), adn even more, we could do things about the areas that we liked that no one else saw potential in (Al-Qadim or Maztica perhaps) or continue along more traditional lines or even do some experimental stuff. Looking at what people have done (fan based), lets face it, a lot of it is imbalanced for various reasons. Most of the classes in the Netbook seem to bland the aspects of two or more classes together or are "power gamer" classes made only to gather power quickly but with no real role and the spells are either too powerful or just variations on existing spells that seem a bit useless. Anyone else want to make a big fan domain site for the earlier editions? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 37] Author : nolanjwerner Date : 03-06-04 03:04 AM oopdnd.com is available. that way we make no statement about it being a better game, simply that it is dungeons and dragons and that it is out of print. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 38] Author : beavis123 Date : 03-06-04 01:08 PM Thread Title : the voice of reason whatever version you play, have fun!!!!!!! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 39] Author : Drexlorn Date : 03-11-04 04:32 AM Thread Title : Re: 1ed interesting Originally posted by beavis123 1st ed ...blows them away. what are you insane. Do you realize this is not 1982?????? Man, if you really dislike 1st ed or others OOP ad&d/d&d, why are you staying here ? You want a medal or what ? Why not share your wisdom of 3.5 ed with other 3.5 ed players on others forums rooms on this boards ? They really need you you know. They are starving for 3.5 ed advices. Us, we don't give a sh**. See ? Being honest, you plague this forum at best. You must have no life or just being plainly stupid for doing all of this. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 40] Author : beavis123 Date : 03-11-04 05:58 AM Thread Title : the voice of reason I am the voice of reason. and that's why i stick around here. Free country last time i checked. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 41] Author : jasper Date : 03-11-04 09:57 AM Thread Title : Re: Out Of Print But On The Table Do you think that Wizards Of The Coast now Hasbro is obligated to support the open-ended games like original D&D and AD&D? No. because their is no money in creating, publishing, marketing, out of print editions. if there was they would be doing it. What about alternatives? Ask hasbro to license you the first edition game. They you publish modules. I'd like to see a reprint of the original system .. Why I have the old books still. ANd unless you were going to rewrite, edit, and erranta the books then I may buy them. .. followed up by new adventures in the original format. So I bought too many first and second edition modules which I never used. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 42] Author : Thailfi Date : 03-11-04 10:28 AM There probably isn't a sustainable market for 1e/2e based material anymore. Not for a company of the size of Hasbro. They probably see this material as counterproductive as this potential material could encourage 1e/2e players to refrain from purchasing their 3e products. Sort of a why convert if you can still get new material for the older editions. Personally, our group isn't terribly interested in switching to 3.0/3.5. I think there are enough of us out there that Dungeon Magazine could print at least one of their adventures per issue in the 1e/2e format. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 43] Author : Edgewaters Date : 03-11-04 11:51 AM Thread Title : Re: Re: Out Of Print But On The Table Originally posted by jasper Do you think that Wizards Of The Coast now Hasbro is obligated to support the open-ended games like original D&D and AD&D? No. because their is no money in creating, publishing, marketing, out of print editions. if there was they would be doing it. What about alternatives? Ask hasbro to license you the first edition game. They you publish modules. I'd like to see a reprint of the original system .. Why I have the old books still. ANd unless you were going to rewrite, edit, and erranta the books then I may buy them. .. followed up by new adventures in the original format. So I bought too many first and second edition modules which I never used. Won't happen. WOTC sold the rights to the early editions to Kenzer Co., makers of Hackmaster. If WOTC published any reprints I believe they would be violating the terms of the agreement. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 44] Author : skathros Date : 03-11-04 05:47 PM Originally posted by Edgewaters Did Kenzer ever buy the rights to the "classic" line of boxed sets, the co-owned Arneson/Gygax non-Adnd line? Oh god, i hope not!!! It's bad enough to have AD&D turned into a joke and the D&D name turned into a power-gamer's paradise, where tacked on didgits equal improvement...maybe both K&C and WotC should leave Classic/B,E/O D&D alone. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 45] Author : HumanTorch Date : 03-11-04 07:05 PM Consider this WOTC: The combat has become too elaborate. Simply put, today the concept of hit points is a blood count rather than an abstraction. The original game figured in simply for all the doohickeys that new D&D drags around unbeknownst. 1970's AD&D players always had it easy with combat and the New D&D has tied a "rules albatross" around their neck that can't be shaken off. The comeback of the original simplicity is inevitable. It has hardy roots that work and the new game may be just a fad. What is automated in a video game doesn't work on the tabletop. You may think you're playing the same game by its name but the new game has a drag factor that hampers your ability to walk away from the table with a good adventure tale. The only thing you're walking away with in one night is a bunch of buttons pushed and prodded at game elements that bear no translation in quasi-medieval fiction, myth or fable. Time will erase the elaborate play for a return to a simpler game that puts your personal ability to make a character in a story over any preprogrammed conditions which "mega-buttoned" characters must adhere to. Thats my take on it. I can't consider this new thing to have anything at all to do with my D&D bag. I feel like a jerk half the time to explain the major difference. Classic games are the future, WOTC. Listen! Obey! :mymy: -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 46] Author : beavis123 Date : 03-11-04 08:27 PM Thread Title : i disagree The dream of going back ...is a dream. What in this world has ever came back. What ever happened to the old gas guzzler big square automobiles of the 60's and 70's. Although, now we have big gas guzzling SUV's. I understand your point about simplicity. In some ways, the original may comeback, but only in a newer form. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 47] Author : Wyrmbane Date : 03-11-04 08:53 PM What in this world has ever came back Coke Classic, Halley's Comet, the Hemi engine, the Goat, boomarangs, and the Charger (just read that in the paper today). Not to mention, retro seems to be in, witness the Thunderchicken, the Chevy trucks, hip huggers (gotta love those!!) to name a few. The more things change, the more things go back to what was. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 48] Author : Hiryu Date : 03-11-04 11:13 PM If you want simplicity, flexibility and smooth role playing, you should check out Castles & Crusades. It's due to be out this summer. Gary Gygax himself is involved in that proyect and they welcome any and all playtesters. From what I have been told by Mr. Gygax (he is quite a nice guy and he answers all of his "fan mail"), this is going to be very close to the old D&D editions, but with many changes to make it as fast and smooth as possible. I already sent my signed contract and am waiting for the files and passwords necesary to start playtestesting with my group. If you want to check out the philosophy behind the new system, you can check out the post at the address bellow. http://pub83.ezboard.com/ftrolllordgamesfrm117.showMessage?topicID=30.topic If they do deliver what they are promising, this is one system I would seriously consider converting to. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 49] Author : Sarta Date : 03-12-04 03:11 AM Well, I'll happily admit I'm an old gamer. I started in 1978 and can remember how hard I had to weedle my parents into allowing me to spend 10 bucks on the DM's guide when it first came out. Since then, I've amassed a rather large collection of over 40 different gaming systems and pretty much everything for AD&D from 1st edition through 3.5. I'm actually looking forward to seeing how things turn out in the next few years for our hobby. Currently, they are following the same marketing strategy TSR tried about half-way through 2ed. They are cranking out books full of kits (prestige classes for Beavis) at a high rate and capitalizing on the power-gamers who want new toys for their munchkin characters. This wound up backfiring for TSR (how many people remember the endless kit books that were churned out culminating in the Wizards and Rogues of the Realms series). Eventually, people were sick to death of all these kits and just wanted to focus on good gaming and many of these books went unpurchased. Hard to believe this craze all started because someone decided it would be a good idea to create some sort of system to show that a pc has learned calligraphy in Oriental Adventures. What I see as being even more unbalancing in the long run is the way 3.X editions revamped the xp table. In 1st edition and 2nd edition it could literally take months or years to have a character reach 9th level and far longer to go higher. Now it seems that this is expected after exactly 120 encounters of comparable encounter level to the party. What will this mean for long-term campaigns? I know of many 1st and 2nd edition campaigns that have lasted over 10 years. While the pc's from those games have become very powerful, it is nothing compared to what one would expect using 3.X. I assume that this means that in the next three or four years we can expect to see WotC churning out countless books for epic characters or even divine level characters. Of course, they can always start this cycle again every few years by releasing yet another edition of the game and re-vamping all their previous products. I have to give WotC high praise for the production quality of their products. The books have never looked finer than the current forgotten realm line of books. However, given the current D20 market and the high-importance of maintaining product identity, this means that gone are the days of the inexpensive product, such as the Volo guides, Aurora's Catalogs, and other fluff. Ironically, books of fluff, which marketing shows do not sell so well, may become the best long-term sellers since they appeal to gamers who play every edition of the game. Sarta -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 50] Author : nolanjwerner Date : 03-12-04 03:22 AM Originally posted by Sarta Currently, they are following the same marketing strategy TSR tried about half-way through 2ed. They are cranking out books full of kits (prestige classes for Beavis) at a high rate and capitalizing on the power-gamers who want new toys for their munchkin characters. This wound up backfiring for TSR (how many people remember the endless kit books that were churned out culminating in the Wizards and Rogues of the Realms series). Eventually, people were sick to death of all these kits and just wanted to focus on good gaming and many of these books went unpurchased. I have to disagree with you somewhat. The problem with the kits was that the restrictions were enver enforced. They gave the characters a new role and a new way of looking at the character but no one ever took it seriously. If you want a kit and you use it all the way through for your character then kits work fine, but when you just get the advantages and ignore everything else (like a lot of people did) then its just an extra bonus. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 51] Author : SnowbearK Date : 03-12-04 05:20 AM Four words on kits: (Fighter) Cavalier Elven Bladesinger They got even worse if you slipped in Combat & Tactics...much worse. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 52] Author : nolanjwerner Date : 03-12-04 06:09 AM Good point. I would be SOO strict in enforcing restrictions on those kits and make them follow all of it to the letter. I see what you mean about kits like that ruining it. When used right (which those are not), they can add something extra to a character but those are ridiculous. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 53] Author : beavis123 Date : 03-12-04 08:57 AM Thread Title : kits I played 1st ed and 2nd ed. I liked kits. There so many of them. In today's world, people don't want to hear about restrictions. Kits were a good idea, and they made some good change off them. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 54] Author : Hiryu Date : 03-12-04 01:02 PM Exactly, Nolan. That was the problem with the mayority kits on 2ed, most people blatantly ignored the dissadvantages. That is because most kits were of poor quality and badly templated. You cannot have kits (or the new PrC's, for that matter) include their dissadvantages as subjective concepts. Why? For MANY reasons. For one, you cannot put creative locks on your players.The only dissadvantage that the Diplomat kit has, is that "Diplomats are often far from home", and that some rulers may take their anger out on the messenger. Well, what if the player wants to make a diplomat who stays at home, carrying messages and political missions only within the boundaries of the same realm? (AKA: dealing with different cities under the same ruler) That effectively neutralizes the "dissadvantage". It is a perfectly valid creative choice, there's no question about it, and as a DM you cannot tell the player "you can't have the character you want", just "I don't allow that kit". That begs the question, why was it printed like that to begin with? An even bigger problem is that subjective dissadvantages are extremely easy to forget, specially when they do not fit the role the player has created for his character. For instance, the Explorer kit says that the character "cannot stay in one place too long", but it is very easy to forget that the party has already spent 1 year in the same city. To make matters worse, many groups don't have an effective way to track in-game time. So, that means that the kits' dissadvantages must be mechanical. By "mechanical", I mean that they must be reflected on the rules. If you wanna get something, you need to loose something. Period. The HUGE problem with the kits and why they are so god damned unballanced, is that most of those that have mechanical dissadvantages use Reaction Roll penalties. I've yet to meet (or at the very least hear of) someone who has actually used the Reaction Roll rules. Very few people even know how it actually works (hint: It's NOT the table on the DMG). And even if those were widespread rules, it still does not make up for the advantages most kits get. So, an Amazon has a -2 penalty to reaction rolls against men... boo-freaking-hoo, they get +2/+2 on their first attack against a guy. The Tunnelrat kit gives standard halflings an infravision equivalent, but they have a -2 penalty to reaction rolls against other halflings... big deal. This is the huge problem with kits. They do not balance the perks with the dissadvantages, and in most cases, the dissadvantages are either inconsecuential or nonexistant. This means most kits are freebie 'power-ups'. My favorite examples of some well built kits, are the Gladiator: Those guys get +1 to attack rolls but also a +1 penalty to initiative. And the ninja kit Spirit Warrior: They get a lot of cool stuff, like walking through walls, walking on water and minor illusionist abilities at high levels, but they must use the wizard's XP table instead of the thief's (and of course, have the same spell casting armor restrictions as any wizard). Don't get me wrong, I love kits. They add flavor and variety to the campaign, but I have to revise (and in some cases entirely redo) them before allowing my players to take them. Just my two cents. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 55] Author : Mark_Plemmons Date : 03-12-04 03:18 PM Originally posted by skathros Oh god, i hope not!!! It's bad enough to have AD&D turned into a joke and the D&D name turned into a power-gamer's paradise, where tacked on didgits equal improvement...maybe both K&C and WotC should leave Classic/B,E/O D&D alone. Just a minor FYI... :D HackMaster has elements of parody, yes, but is not a "joke" game. Also, 3.0/3.5 is much more of a power-game than HM, I'd say, since HM is quite a bit deadlier for the players, and makes it harder to advance in level. :) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 56] Author : Yorlum Date : 03-12-04 04:05 PM Originally posted by Mark_Plemmons Just a minor FYI... :D HackMaster has elements of parody, yes, but is not a "joke" game. Also, 3.0/3.5 is much more of a power-game than HM, I'd say, since HM is quite a bit deadlier for the players, and makes it harder to advance in level. :) I am glad to hear that, but I have to say, that all I know about Hackmaster is that the books have punning titles of the originals, and the 'sample' of a Hackmaster scene is [hopefully] a parody. Do you have any serious sample content that you can share? I'd be very reassured, and I think others as well. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 57] Author : Mark_Plemmons Date : 03-12-04 05:32 PM Originally posted by Yorlum I am glad to hear that, but I have to say, that all I know about Hackmaster is that the books have punning titles of the originals, and the 'sample' of a Hackmaster scene is [hopefully] a parody. Do you have any serious sample content that you can share? Nothing I can just copy and paste here (as I'm working from home at the moment), but there are plenty of good discussions on our forums at http://www.kenzerco.com/forums/ubbthreads.php -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 58] Author : Caelic Date : 03-12-04 07:00 PM Hackmaster has humor, yes. Hackmaster has parody elements, yes (by the terms of their agreement, it pretty much has to.) However, first edition AD&D had quite a bit of this, as well. (Anyone remember the "+2 backscratcher?") Personally, I don't see a totally-serious game as a plus; this is, after all, supposed to be fun, not high drama. Even if a new game's not your bag, though, there's quite a lot in Hackmaster that converts EXTREMELY easily to first or second edition--and it's good stuff. Take a look at Little Keep on the Borderlands sometime. It's easily as good as any campaign module TSR or WotC have released. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 59] Author : Wheggi Date : 03-12-04 09:01 PM I think that 3.whatever is a fine game. Heck, I played it and created stuff for it. I gave it a crack. Its a very unique gaming experience. It's not Dungeons and Dragons. That is not an insult: just a fact. The game that WotC puts out is not Dungeons and Dragons: it is a game that uses Dungeons and Dragons terminology. The only reason 3E carries the name "D&D" is because WotC owns the name, and they can do whatever they want with it. I find that I enjoy playing Advanced Dungeons and Dragons much more than I enjoyed playing 3E, but this is just a matter of personal taste. I also enjoy reading Shakespeare more than R.A. Salvatore. Even though the guy is no longer writing stuff, it doesn't diminish the quality of his work, and Salvatore is certainly no William Shakespeare! - Wheggi -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 60] Author : Drexlorn Date : 03-12-04 10:37 PM Originally posted by WizzyBlackmore Beavis you may not know (because of age) the incredible feeling of nostalgia/memories playing 1st. Ed. D&D brings me (and many friends). When I play, it is 1982 back to 1979 all over again......a great portal to my past......... Cranking the appropriate music also helps!!! Rush, Tull, Saga, Pink Floyd, Zep, etc........... I'll stand by my statement that 1st. Ed. kicks :censored::censored::censored::censored::censored::D :D :D I understand your feelings man! :thumbsup: -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 61] Author : Hiryu Date : 03-12-04 11:06 PM I hate hackmaster with a passion. Any game that has a pizza topings table on the DM screen deserves nothing but contempt from me. A lil humor? Sure. A full on cheeseball game that ressembles the "Collection of Worst B Movies Boxed Set-4,579.99"? I don't think so. That said, however, I do agree with some of the comments here. It does have some good ideas, and I personally love the HP kicker rule (altho I had to clean it up a bit before introducing it to my campaign). I say borrow the books, check out what's new in terms of 1ed, pick the new stuff you like, clean it up, put it on your games and don't look back. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 62] Author : nolanjwerner Date : 03-12-04 11:11 PM Originally posted by Wheggi I find that I enjoy playing Advanced Dungeons and Dragons much more than I enjoyed playing 3E, but this is just a matter of personal taste. I also enjoy reading Shakespeare more than R.A. Salvatore. Even though the guy is no longer writing stuff, it doesn't diminish the quality of his work, and Salvatore is certainly no William Shakespeare! - Wheggi Sarcastic Gasp, you can't be serious saying there's a better writer then Salvatore, mean he's as good as Bret Easton Ellis. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 63] Author : HumanTorch Date : 03-12-04 11:51 PM Alright, stepping back from it all and looking at the broad spectrum of the D&D design evolution can one truly say that the last word in print for the originals have been said and done? What lies ahead for original D&D and 1e Advanced players isn't a retrospective at all. I see an anticipation for more in the future. The Hassenfeld family may not be concerned for the present regarding the origin of the D&D concept as being an interesting hobby but sure as heck we still are and we still will be. Right? The source of this game is modelled in the light of a library. Today's game is modelled in the light of several games as sources. Games fade but books don't. So the closer one is to the source of D&D then the more resilient the lasting appeal. The essence of the original D&D is a quasi-medieval feeling found in many non-fictional sources at the local library hence the original success of the game in academia. The problem why this mentality was lost isn't because of an influx of new players. To the contrary, it is the old players that have been jumping from new book to new book to new book that lost its link to the past. Blame it on the "think tank" being ousted from TSR or blame it on lowered standards. Whatever. Let's just stop pretending that the current state of this game is a permanent thing when we all know that plain "ain't" true in anybody's "book"! ;) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 64] Author : calenur Date : 03-12-04 11:55 PM Thread Title : w...t...f... Originally posted by Hiryu I hate hackmaster with a passion. Any game that has a pizza topings table on the DM screen deserves nothing but contempt from me. A lil humor? Sure. A full on cheeseball game that ressembles the "Collection of Worst B Movies Boxed Set-4,579.99"? I don't think so. First off, I'd just like to introduce the forum to somebody who isn't able to take a joke. I'm not sure how to reply to this really...it's possibly the most un-informed post I've seen in a while. Hackmaster brings old-school gaming back to RPGs. I've enjoyed playing Hackmaster more than any other game to be perfectly honest. It has more to offer than any D&D game I've ever played, especially 3rd ed. You want a game that's full of cheese? How about we talk about a game with Satanic-Cannibalistic Halflings...or a game with an 'Adult' book with detailed rules on how to have sex. Or if you want to get into a mechanic issue...how about a game where monsters are harder to hit the bigger they get.... I don't know what you're getting at...if you bothered to look at the GM screen you'd see there's a bounty of useful info there. It basically lets you run the whole game from there. The addition of a pizza chart was actually voted on by Hackmaster players if you must know. We had a part in creating that thing. .....I don't even know where to go from here.....my head hurts. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 65] Author : Hiryu Date : 03-13-04 01:09 AM Oh, I can take a joke. I just can't stand a bad pun. I am not uninformed, I have played Hackmaster and I have read all of the core rulebooks. Now, how is that uninformed? I believe there is a big diference between being informed and being annoyed by a poor parody game that screams 'dork' in every page. It doesn't bring old-school roleplaying back, it just keeps old roleplaying stereotypes alive and well. What has satanic halflings and sex rules have anything to do with it? Last I checked, "The Complete Book of Carnal Knowledge" was a netbook, not a printed material under a WotC license like... say... oh, I don't know, Hackmaster? Oh, I've seen the whole GM screen, altho I had to squint my eyes quite a bit to be able to read the tiny and clustered tables. I don't know about you, but I think a good screen (for any game) should include ONLY the most vital and useful game information for the GM. I guess I am too old school for Hackmaster, huh? That or pizza toppings and how to get characters drunk is of the outmost importance and I somehow missed it. So, you had a part in the making of that appropriately called thing. I can thus understand that you have an emotional investment on that game, but I hardly think it is something to be proud of. Also, you obviously chose to ignore the rest of my post, where I state that there -are- some good ideas in Hackmaster. I just happen to think the execution of them is sloppy, clumsy and/or cumbersome. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 66] Author : theDwarf Date : 03-13-04 02:37 AM Originally posted by Hiryu Oh, I can take a joke. I just can't stand a bad pun. I am not uninformed, I have played Hackmaster and I have read all of the core rulebooks. Now, how is that uninformed? I believe there is a big diference between being informed and being annoyed by a poor parody game that screams 'dork' in every page. It doesn't bring old-school roleplaying back, it just keeps old roleplaying stereotypes alive and well. What has satanic halflings and sex rules have anything to do with it? Last I checked, "The Complete Book of Carnal Knowledge" was a netbook, not a printed material under a WotC license like... say... oh, I don't know, Hackmaster? I respect you opinion and the last part of the post calenur posted did demonstrate that you had at least looked at the books. On the other hand comments such as "Any game that has ... deserves nothing but comtempt from me." are very prejudicious, and show that maybe you don't quite understand the type of humor in HackMaster (which can easily be ignored, if a person chooses to). It could be inferred from your statement that AD&D 1st Edition, the original D&D (pre-1e), Dragon Magazine, etc, all deserve nothing but contempt. If you look through the older editions and publications of D&D/AD&D carefully you will find all kinds of humor and bad puns about the same as what is in HackMaster (art, fully armored fighter jumping into a magic-user's arms when confronting a rust monster; names, Drawmij=JimWard, plus all the Gygax and other names in Greyhawk; etc). HackMaster can seem more over the top at times, but is much more serious when you get down to it. :D As for the other poster's comments, I assume they are digs at 3e in general, including, but probably not limited to, many of WoTC's 3e books. As for "a poor paraody game that screams 'dork' in every page" I know many who would say that is a different game you would be refering to. ;) Oh yeah, since they have so many ideas worth mining you would be better off buying the HackMaster GMG rather than just borrowing it. :D Just my 2cp :) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 67] Author : Caelic Date : 03-13-04 11:25 AM Harsh reality time, folks: to the majority of the world, D&D still screams 'dork' with every page. It's sad but true: liking 3.5 is no more likely to get you dates than liking Hackmaster. As for parody/comedy games being unworthy of respect...let's talk about Paranoia, which still ranks as one of the most successful and long-running non-fantasy RPGs in the history of the industry. Let's talk about Ghostbusters, which was tremendously influential in setting the tone for the later generation of "rules light" games. Me? I'm in this to have fun, and I don't particularly care if it carries a stigma of dorkiness. I can tell you, though, that there's one sort of gamer my group does stigmatize, and that's people who consider THEIR games and THEIR preferences superior and look down their noses at those who aren't similarly "sophisticated." Now, as to objective reasons why 3.5 isn't my personal cup of tea: Third edition is, in all likelihood, the single best researched and most carefully crafted RPG in history. Every aspect was based on market research; my hat's off to WotC for knowing exactly what their target market wanted, and designing a game to give it to them. Unfortunately for me, I'm not their target market...and neither are "old school" gamers in general. WotC designed third edition to appeal to younger gamers. This makes good, sound business sense, because a 13 year old is likely to spend more money and time on a hobby over the long run than a 30 year old. Older gamers are a shrinking pool, as family and jobs demand more and more of their time; adolescent gamers are, potentially, an eternally-renewing resource. With that in mind, here are some of the very conscious and deliberate design features of third edition that don't suit my style: 1. 3e was designed to be fast. WotC's market research indicated that the typical campaign lasted (I think) 6 months to a year, so they designed a game where you could reach high levels in that time. I prefer campaigns that last for a long time, in which there's a gradual gain in numerical power, but the emphasis is on other accomplishments. 2. 3e was modelled on the fantasy aesthetic currently popular among adolescents: the same aesthetic that drives anime. Wildly exotic characters with wildly exotic powers having a series of wildly exotic battles in wildly exotic locations, with ever-more-impressive special effects and ever-more-improbable fighting maneuvers. Nothing wrong with that; it's just not what I like. Give me Lieber or Howard any day. 3. 3e was modelled on the idea that more player choices are automatically a better thing. As a game designer myself, I do not and have never believed that. A game with unlimited choice brings us right back to "Cops and Robbers." "Bang! I shot you!" "Nuh uh! I turned into a ghost right before the bullets hit!" The most elegant and flavorful games are the ones with strict limits. If I want a generic RPG engine I can customize to my tastes, there are better ones available than 3.5: the Hero system springs to mind immediately. 3.5 occupies a middle ground I'm just not interested in visiting. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 68] Author : Ajamar Date : 03-13-04 01:39 PM Thread Title : Taking the humor out of hackmaster I'm currently playing in both a Hackmaster and a 3.5e D&D game. As far as humor is concerned, the 3.5e is the game that, for me, is more over-the-top. This has nothing to do with game design -- quite the opposite -- I think the tone of any game is determined by the DM and his players. I'm going to say what no game designer at K&C will ever cop to -- they HAVE to make the game a parody. That's written into their contract. If they make the game serious, it goes *poof* -- never to be heard from again. There is one particular set of rules that are tough to get around if you play the game as written, but wish to play as being serious: the quirks and flaws tables. I'd just suggest ditching the tables in that case and instead rolling up a character using one of the methods presented in the 2e DMG. However, perception is more important than reality in these things. The game just needs to "appear" to be a parody on the surface in order to fulfill the humor quota of the contract. K&C knows this, as well as most Hackmaster players and GMs. While there are plenty of humorous (and many, not-so-humorous :rolleyes: ) references in Hackmaster, none of the MECHANICS are a joke. They borrow upon (IMHO) the best of 1st and 2nd edition and implement a couple of new ideas that create good balance within the system. That's why I enjoy the game. Plus, Gnomes rock in Hackmaster and totally s*ck arse in 3.5e. I will never forgive WotC or Hasbro for the travesty that is the "Gnome Bard: Favored Class". Slim-jim or whatever-his-name-is the "Iconic Gnome Bard" presented in that book is like a white vaudevillian wearing blackface -- a disgrace. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 69] Author : beavis123 Date : 03-13-04 05:25 PM Thread Title : Hack master I never played the game, and have never heard anything bad about it. On the subject of the Bard as the favored class of gnomes, I was a little surprised by the choice also. I guess they figured the gnome's sense of humor with pratical jokes and affinity with illusion magic, the bard would be a good choice. I thought the bard would be the favored class of half-elves. Most people I ask about favored class usually state they never use the rule. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 70] Author : Sildatorak Date : 03-14-04 05:42 AM Thread Title : Re: w...t...f... Originally posted by calenur how about a game where monsters are harder to hit the bigger they get.... Nope. Bigger monsters are easier to hit. In 3e, higher is better for armor class, and for your attack bonus, and for saving throws, and for skill checks. It streamlines play since you are almost always adding instead of subtracting sometimes and adding others, but it also makes it easier for players to cheat. I'm running a 2e campaign with some younger guys who started playing in 3e...they hate me because I'll say "roll 1d20" and not tell them whether it is a save or an ability check. :D -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 71] Author : Algolei Date : 03-14-04 07:05 AM Thread Title : Re: Re: w...t...f... Originally posted by Sildatorak Nope. Bigger monsters are easier to hit. I could never understand that, personally. If you're using a missile weapon then, sure, bigger is easier to hit; but using a hand-held weapon? Large creatures should be difficult to get close to. 3.x tries to compensate for that by giving large creatures Reach and an Attack of Opportunity, but unless they have a high Dex and a special Feat ( :embarrass I can't remember its name), they still only endanger one person. I dunno. Trying to kill a buffalo with a sword should be a very difficult thing compared to killing one with a bow. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 72] Author : beavis123 Date : 03-14-04 05:23 PM Thread Title : i disagree I think for game balance larger creatures should be easier to hit. If it wasn't true, every character and every monster would get bigger and bigger. The bigger monsters are immune to criticals or are at least players have a tougher time getting to the critical area. A Halfling rogue has sneak attack, but against a Hill Giant, it's tough to get to a critical area, but not impossible. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 73] Author : Caelic Date : 03-14-04 07:19 PM "Bigger is easier to hit," I don't have a problem with. "Smaller is inherently more accurate," on the other hand, is something that I have a hard time swallowing. Because a halfling's half my size, he's inherently more accurate in his attacks? Geesh. By that logic, we should field a sniper corps made up entirely of midgets. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 74] Author : nolanjwerner Date : 03-14-04 07:25 PM Originally posted by Caelic Geesh. By that logic, we should field a sniper corps made up entirely of midgets. Shhhh...don't give Rumsfeld any ideas. The war on terror is becoming enough of a quagmire. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 75] Author : Algolei Date : 03-15-04 01:53 AM Originally posted by beavis123 game balance If the game needs to be unbalanced to be balanced :looloo: maybe the game ain't quite right in the head to start with? Originally posted by Caelic "Bigger is easier to hit," I don't have a problem with. "Smaller is inherently more accurate," on the other hand, is something that I have a hard time swallowing. Because a halfling's half my size, he's inherently more accurate in his attacks? That's...that's the same thing. "Bigger is easier to hit" means "smaller is inherently more accurate." Geesh. By that logic, we should field a sniper corps made up entirely of midgets. Yes, and all ninjas should be midgets as well so they're harder to spot, hit, and avoid. :D -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 76] Author : beavis123 Date : 03-15-04 01:23 PM Thread Title : Interesting Gamers complain about "bigger is easier to hit". They don't complain about the benefits of being larger. More hit points (generally) More armor (generally) More attacks (generally) More damage (generally) Reach somewhat more immune from sneak attacks or back stabs. Hmm... the complaint is "They aren't easier to hit!!!" If you think it's not true, then drop the size bonus or penalty. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 77] Author : Cessna182 Date : 03-15-04 01:57 PM Originally posted by Hiryu I hate hackmaster with a passion. Any game that has a pizza topings table on the DM screen deserves nothing but contempt from me. A lil humor? Sure. A full on cheeseball game that ressembles the "Collection of Worst B Movies Boxed Set-4,579.99"? I don't think so. I happen to really like Hackmaster. It's old school 1st Edition, with a lot of fixes. Yes, there are jokes - at least the game doesn't take itself too seriously. But at the core, it's a very good game. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 78] Author : Sildatorak Date : 03-15-04 04:21 PM Originally posted by Algolei That's...that's the same thing. "Bigger is easier to hit" means "smaller is inherently more accurate." Nope. It means that smaller is harder to hit. I tend to agree. Assume all things other than size are equal (str, dex, armor worn, etc). Let's say a halfling has a 50% chance to hit this human. I would think that an ogre would have a 50% chance to hit him, too. The combat difference should come in by way of the human's 45% chance (make it 40 if you really want to make size matter a lot) to hit the halfling and 55% (60 if size is that important) to hit the ogre. Probably something that will be corrected in 4e :rolleyes: Anyway, this is not the place for this discussion. It is the oop board, after all. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 79] Author : Caelic Date : 03-15-04 07:30 PM As Sildatorak said: "Smaller is harder to hit" makes sense. "Smaller hits more often" doesn't, particularly. And you're right--this isn't the place for it, so I'll leave it at that. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 80] Author : Greyhack Date : 03-16-04 05:13 AM Thread Title : Re: Out Of Print But On The Table Originally posted by HumanTorch I want some opinions from the folks here. Do you think that Wizards Of The Coast now Hasbro is obligated to support the open-ended games like original D&D and AD&D? Not at all. Is Atari obliged to keep making games for the 2600? Things change, products go away. The beauty of an RPG is that you don't really need new product. It's nice, but you can create your own new stuff or now share with others on the net. What about alternatives? I'd like to see a reprint of the original system and followed up by new adventures in the original format. Anybody else agree with this? Check out Hackmaster, by Kenzer & Company. It's basically a 1e/2e AD&D hybrid system, with some other stuff added in, but it can easily be used as new material for your AD&D game by simply ignoring the extra stuff. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 81] Author : Algolei Date : 03-16-04 06:22 AM Originally posted by Sildatorak Nope. It means that smaller is harder to hit. I tend to agree. Assume all things other than size are equal (str, dex, armor worn, etc). Let's say a halfling has a 50% chance to hit this human. I would think that an ogre would have a 50% chance to hit him, too. The combat difference should come in by way of the human's 45% chance (make it 40 if you really want to make size matter a lot) to hit the halfling and 55% (60 if size is that important) to hit the ogre. Probably something that will be corrected in 4e :rolleyes: If the halfling is harder to hit because he is smaller than the human (the human has a 45% chance), why isn't that the same as saying the human is easier to hit because he's larger (the halfling has a 50% chance)? Anyway, this is not the place for this discussion. It is the oop board, after all. :) What if I'm trying to incorporate some 3E rules into my OOP game? They won't let me talk about adapting 3E to 1E/2E on the other boards. :( -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 82] Author : Edgewaters Date : 03-16-04 06:25 AM :) What if I'm trying to incorporate some 3E rules into my OOP game? They won't let me talk about converting 3E to 1E/2E on the other boards. :( [/B] Really? Now thats bloody interesting .... they are always very busy telling us OOP players how intolerant we are .... can anyone say "complete hypocracy" -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 83] Author : Algolei Date : 03-16-04 06:44 AM Originally posted by Edgewaters .... can anyone say "complete hypocracy" :lol: Yes. [But I spell it differently. :angel: ] -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 84] Author : Caelic Date : 03-16-04 07:18 PM Originally posted by Algolei If the halfling is harder to hit because he is smaller than the human (the human has a 45% chance), why isn't that the same as saying the human is easier to hit because he's larger (the halfling has a 50% chance)? Algolei, You're missing the point. "Smaller=harder to hit" IS the same as "Bigger=easier to hit." Nobody's disputing that. However, the halfling is also more accurate. He gets a bonus to his attack rolls simply because he's smaller. "Smaller=harder to hit" is NOT the same as "Smaller=more likely to hit, no matter what he's aiming at." -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 85] Author : Algolei Date : 03-17-04 03:06 AM Yes, it is. Uh, I mean, isn't it? I'm honestly having trouble with this idea. A human is harder to hit than a...I dunno, a troll for instance, because the human is smaller than the troll. The human gets no bonus or penalty to hit another human, but the troll gets a penalty to hit the human and the human gets a bonus to hit the troll. That means the human is more accurate than the troll. Likewise, a halfling trying to smack a halfling gets no bonus or penalty to hit. A human trying to hit a halfling gets a penalty because the halfling is smaller, and the halfling gets a bonus because the human is larger. Isn't that the way things work if smaller = harder to hit and bigger = easier to hit? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 86] Author : Edgewaters Date : 03-17-04 07:43 AM my opinion: it depends if "bigger" is relative or not. If something that is bigger according to a standard (say, a human being size) is easier to hit, then being smaller doesn't necessarily imply greater accuracy. If "bigger" is relative to your size, then it necessarily follows that being smaller is equivalent to being more accurate. It's not necessarily unrealistic either. An inch tall leprechaun would have an easier time nailing a halfling in the arse with a dart than a storm giant would, I think. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 87] Author : OlafTheUnbathed Date : 03-17-04 02:45 PM Out of print but still on my table: White Box D&D Moldvay BX. AD&D 1e with bits of 1.5e (i.e., UA) My $0.02 on this OOP board: Good thoughts posted here; could shape up into a good resource. Don't feed the trolls. I sure don't see any "old fuddy-duddies" going over to the 3e boards on this site to pee in that end of the pool.... hmmm. But I've seen plenty of the reverse here, and at DF, and at GWD, it almost destroyed both boards.... hmmm. On current publications catering to Ye Olde Schoole: I give credit to Kenzer for carrying the AD&D torch, but I passed on Hackmaster because of the huge dollar outlay required, plain and simple. Doesn't matter how good it is if I can't buy it, fellas. C&C is coming and I pray to St. Cuthbert it will be a juggernaut powered by CZ. About hairsplitting on mechanics issues as a way to fight the Edition Wars: Good points all around - here's mine: IMO it's really all about spirit & flavor. Every edition gets its wonky bits house-ruled, no exceptions. Game on. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 88] Author : Edgewaters Date : 03-17-04 03:42 PM [i] C&C is coming and I pray to St. Cuthbert it will be a juggernaut powered by CZ. [/B] :drool: -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 89] Author : Caelic Date : 03-17-04 07:23 PM Originally posted by Algolei Yes, it is. Uh, I mean, isn't it? I'm honestly having trouble with this idea. A human is harder to hit than a...I dunno, a troll for instance, because the human is smaller than the troll. ...which is covered by the fact that the troll has a penalty to his AC for size, and the troll does not. The human gets no bonus or penalty to hit another human, but the troll gets a penalty to hit the human and the human gets a bonus to hit the troll. That means the human is more accurate than the troll. No--the human doesn't get a bonus to hit the troll. The troll's easier to hit. There's a difference. [/quote]Likewise, a halfling trying to smack a halfling gets no bonus or penalty to hit.[/quote] Here's where you're wrong. That halfling gets a bonus to ALL attack rolls, independent of the armor class modifiers for size. No matter WHAT the halfling and the human are aiming at, all other factors being equal, the halfling will hit more often--because he has a +1 attack modifier for size. The two of them could be having an archery competition, shooting at the same stationary target--and the halfling would hit more often, simply by virtue of being smaller. Isn't that the way things work if smaller = harder to hit and bigger = easier to hit? It shouldn't be. Why should a four foot tall sharpshooter be any better at hitting a four foot tall target than a six foot tall sharpshooter? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 90] Author : theDwarf Date : 03-17-04 10:41 PM Originally posted by OlafTheUnbathed On current publications catering to Ye Olde Schoole: I give credit to Kenzer for carrying the AD&D torch, but I passed on Hackmaster because of the huge dollar outlay required, plain and simple. Then just buy the PHB, GMG, and add a 20hp kicker to the monsters from your AD&D Monster Manuals :D -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 91] Author : Hiryu Date : 03-18-04 01:25 AM I am a playtester for Castles & Crusades, so I already know how the system is shaping up. I cannot share any inside info because of the terms in the playtesting contract I signed, however, I CAN tell you one thing that is public domain. C&C is being made under WotC's Open Gaming License, which basically means that the game will use the same core engine of D20. Just a heads up. This may be a good thing for some (even the ones that hate 3E) and a bad thing for others, but in the end, you'll either have to sign up for playtesting or wait until the game hits the store so you can see it for yourselves. I guess that what I am trying to say is that the use of the basic D20 mechanics may put off some (if not most) old players, but the game may be worth a shot. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 92] Author : Algolei Date : 03-18-04 05:01 AM Oh, I think I see what you're saying! Originally posted by Caelic ...which is covered by the fact that the troll has a penalty to his AC for size, and the troll does not. I guess I'm thinking of "large" being dependent on the viewer: To a human, the troll is large; to a halfling, the human is large. the human doesn't get a bonus to hit the troll. The troll's easier to hit. There's a difference. I suppose there is, technically. It's a weird difference, though. Likewise, a halfling trying to smack a halfling gets no bonus or penalty to hit. Here's where you're wrong. That halfling gets a bonus to ALL attack rolls, independent of the armor class modifiers for size. Exactly. But I can't help cancelling out the bonuses and penalties in my head, so I end up thinking there is no penalty. No matter WHAT the halfling and the human are aiming at, all other factors being equal, the halfling will hit more often--because he has a +1 attack modifier for size. The two of them could be having an archery competition, shooting at the same stationary target--and the halfling would hit more often, simply by virtue of being smaller. Yeah, that just doesn't sound right. A target may be medium to the human and large to the halfling's point of view, but then again the range, to the halfling's point of view, is double that of the range as the human views it. Yet all ranges are just straight numbers in D&D with no variation depending on creature sizes. ...then again, I'm not sure if there should be. Wait: There should...and there shouldn't. I think. *brain explodes* Why should a four foot tall sharpshooter be any better at hitting a four foot tall target than a six foot tall sharpshooter? I agree that they shouldn't. I think that's what's missing behind the 3E thinking, though: Perceived ranges should affect ranged attacks, so a small creature should have their ranges halved or something. [Yeah, no, I can't get my head around that concept either. :sad: ] [i]Originally posted by Hiryu C&C is being made under WotC's Open Gaming License, which basically means that the game will use the same core engine of D20. Just a heads up. Awwww, crap. :( My hat of d02 know no limit. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 93] Author : Hiryu Date : 03-18-04 04:39 PM Awwww, crap. :( My hat of d02 know no limit. Actually, C&C IS worth a shot. You can take that from a strong 3E hater such as myself. I can't go into any details, but the C&C mission statement is that the game should be a balanced mix of the old with the new. Some sort of bridge between OD&D and 3E, and so far it's shaping up pretty good. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 94] Author : Cessna182 Date : 03-18-04 04:49 PM Originally posted by Algolei Awwww, crap. :( My hat of d02 know no limit. Another rpg.net user, I presume? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 95] Author : skathros Date : 03-18-04 05:23 PM Originally posted by Edgewaters Really? Now thats bloody interesting .... they are always very busy telling us OOP players how intolerant we are .... can anyone say "complete hypocracy" now, now Edgewaters...WotC, in it's never ending benevolance, gave use this nice little corner for OOP fans to descuss the games they love...you know, "out of sight, out of mind". Lest we muddy the 3E sections with out old views. They can call d20 Fantasy D&D if they want, and they can keep on adding digits after the name till they finally compensate for whatever it is they're trying to conpensate for...but to me, D&D's the red and blue books i've played with all my life, and just because you borrow familiar terms like AC, HP, et al, doesnt mean that what WotC's peddling is D&D. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 96] Author : Caelic Date : 03-18-04 05:25 PM Originally posted by Cessna182 Another rpg.net user, I presume? Silently wailing in the night... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 97] Author : Xx Spider xX Date : 03-18-04 10:50 PM Thread Title : Re: Re: w...t...f... Originally posted by Sildatorak ...they hate me because I'll say "roll 1d20" and not tell them whether it is a save or an ability check. :D Argh! It amazes me that such a simple and effective technique had eluded me until the above statement was made.:( -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 98] Author : Sarta Date : 03-19-04 01:36 AM Thread Title : Re: Re: Re: w...t...f... Originally posted by Xx Spider xX Argh! It amazes me that such a simple and effective technique had eluded me until the above statement was made.:( An even more evil tactic is to have them roll the d20 just to make them paranoid. Act like their results matter, check a few tables, pretend to jot down some notes, turn back to them and act like nothing happened, and then get on with the game. Sarta -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 99] Author : Algolei Date : 03-19-04 08:02 AM Originally posted by Cessna182 Another rpg.net user, I presume? No, don't think I've ever been there. I got my quote from a thread title started on these boards in General Discussion a long while ago--it was funny, so I kept it for myself. I even use it when watching curling. What's it like there at rpg.net? Do they hate d20 too? Now you've got me curious, I must go see! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 100] Author : Algolei Date : 03-19-04 08:22 AM Um, ew. As my Norwegian grandfather would say about anywhere he didn't like: "It's a heathen place!" -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 101] Author : Caelic Date : 03-19-04 03:32 PM If you think the quote's funny, you should've read A Silent Wail's original masterpiece of a post. Or Teh Clawring Crabbe's "d02 System: Know No Limit!" threads, with the innovative and patented Coin Pool mechanic. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if the thread is STILL active over there. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 102] Author : Algolei Date : 03-20-04 02:03 AM Well Caelic, turns out I had been there before. When I tried to register, I discovered I already had an account. With 3 posts too, all on 10-19-2003! I remember them: I Googled up a site where I could get a specific GURPS question answered, and rpg.net got the job done for me. :) So I am a member. I just didn't know it. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 103] Author : HumanTorch Date : 03-21-04 03:49 AM Thread Title : Re: Re: Out Of Print But On The Table Originally posted by Greyhack Not at all. Is Atari obliged to keep making games for the 2600? Things change, products go away. The beauty of an RPG is that you don't really need new product. It's nice, but you can create your own new stuff or now share with others on the net. Encouraging the treatment of the literary and intelligent game of AD&D like the child's toy Atari 2600 is not only offensive, it is messageboard credibility suicide. TAKE IT BACK!!! Quick! Before its too late! ;) Originally posted by Greyhack Check out Hackmaster, by Kenzer & Company. It's basically a 1e/2e AD&D hybrid system, with some other stuff added in, but it can easily be used as new material for your AD&D game by simply ignoring the extra stuff. Hackmaster is pure 2e and its truly made for 2e fans poking fun at old D&D. The joke is over for me. I really don't like it anymore. Back to what I was saying, the Hassenfeld family can't regard D&D like easily packageable Parcheesi just because it was dumped on them like that by the Adkison group. Original D&D fans are one helluva siege-reenacting "consumer focus group" that will virtually plunder, pillage and ransom if things continue to spiral the bookish franchise into day-glo kitschiness. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 104] Author : theDwarf Date : 03-22-04 04:02 PM Thread Title : Re: Re: Re: Out Of Print But On The Table Originally posted by HumanTorch Hackmaster is pure 2e and its truly made for 2e fans poking fun at old D&D. The joke is over for me. I really don't like it anymore. Hold on there. First off HackMaster is more AD&D 1e than 2e (it is an amalgamation, but more closely aligned with 1e), and secondly how does HackMaster (based on AD&D) poke fun at old D&D (Basic Set through Cyclopedia)? HackMaster is in no way, shape, or form "pure 2e" and it was not made for "poking fun" at any system, nor is HackMaster a joke. If you have played HackMaster and don't like it, I respect that. If you are saying you don't like it because it is "just a big joke" I do not agree with you and believe your statement to be prejudicial and unsubstantiated. :D -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 105] Author : skathros Date : 03-22-04 05:16 PM HM not a joke? Come on now...then what is it? It isnt D&D, that's for sure. And it isnt OD&D. Maybe a goofy inbread relative to AD&D. I think i invested enough $ on HM to be able to call it what it is...a joke, nothing seriouse, at best a quirky fad. Hmmm, old-school gamers like me were waiting for something akin to AD&D after it was trashed in favor of d20 fantasy and what did we get...Hackmaster! :rolleyes: Dont know who's worse, WotC for ignoring and forgeting the old school gamers, or Kenzer & Co for making fun of them -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 106] Author : Mark_Plemmons Date : 03-22-04 05:59 PM Originally posted by skathros HM not a joke? Come on now...then what is it? It isnt D&D, that's for sure. And it isnt OD&D. Maybe a goofy inbread relative to AD&D. I think i invested enough $ on HM to be able to call it what it is...a joke, nothing seriouse, at best a quirky fad. Hmmm, old-school gamers like me were waiting for something akin to AD&D after it was trashed in favor of d20 fantasy and what did we get...Hackmaster! :rolleyes: Dont know who's worse, WotC for ignoring and forgeting the old school gamers, or Kenzer & Co for making fun of them No, it's not D&D - it's HackMaster! About 20% 1e, 25% 2e, 50% new stuff, and 110% attitude! :) The humor in HackMaster really comes from the tongue-in-cheek deadly serious point of view from which it is written. Some people like that, some really don't. Certainly, the name implies a 'hack-n-slash' mentality, but like most rpgs, it's only that way if you want it to be. Are we making fun of gamers? No, of course not. We ARE gamers - we just don't always take ourselves seriously. :D -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 107] Author : T. Foster Date : 03-22-04 06:08 PM Thread Title : Re: Re: Re: Re: Out Of Print But On The Table Originally posted by theDwarf Hold on there. First off HackMaster is more AD&D 1e than 2e (it is an amalgamation, but more closely aligned with 1e) Hackmaster claims to be more 1E than 2E, and in certain superficial ways (covert art, level titles, etc.) it is, but as far as the actual rules of play are concerned, it at least feels to me (and many others!) that in almost every instance where there's a substantive rule difference between 1E and 2E that the Hackmaster rule is closer to the 2E rule -- and it's not just our imagination; there was actually an old thread on Dragon's Foot ( http://www.dfforum.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2959&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15) where someone identified 94 differences between 1E and 2E in the PHB, and when those differences were doublechecked against HM, it was found that HM followed 2E over 1E almost 3 to 1. And then there's the matter of HM's very 2E-esque 'splatbooks' about which the less said the better... Sure, saying HM is 'pure 2E' is a rhetorical flourish (something The Human Torch is well known for ;)), but that doesn't change the fact that, for those of us who didn't like 2E (and there are a lot of us!) it is still entirely too close 2E, and therefore by no means a viable surrogate for 1E. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 108] Author : theDwarf Date : 03-23-04 02:01 AM Thread Title : Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Out Of Print But On The Table Originally posted by T. Foster where someone identified 94 differences between 1E and 2E in the PHB, and when those differences were doublechecked against HM, it was found that HM followed 2E over 1E almost 3 to 1. And then there's the matter of HM's very 2E-esque 'splatbooks' about which the less said the better... Shame the link didn't work :( I would have liked to compare the differences myself. On to "splat" books: :D 1e: Dieties and Demigods Unearthed Arcana Oriental Adventures Wilderness Survival Guide Dungeoneer's Survival Guide Manual of the Planes 2e: The Complete Book of ... ... Thieves (91) ... Fighters ... Priests ... Wizards ... Psionics (91) ... Elves ... Dwarves (91) ... Bards ... Barbarians ... Gnomes and Halflings (93) ... Paladins (94) ... Druids (94) ... Humanoids ... Rangers ... Ninjas Dungeon Master Guide Suppliments: ... Arms and Equipment ... Monster Mythology ... The Complete Book of Villains ... The Complete book of Necromancers Book of Artifacts Tome of Magic DM Option: High-Level Campaigns Player's Option: ... Combat & Tactics ... Skills & Powers ... Spells & Magic (plus a lot more) HM: Spellslinger's Guide (July 2002) Combatant's Guide Gawds & DemiGawds (May 2003) Zealot's Guide (July 2003) Griftmaster's Guide (Sept 2003) So far HM is no where near up to 2e's level of "splat books" (more on par with 1e in that regard) and that for a company with a license to "quote" parody "unquote" AD&D. In other words Kenzer & Company is not coming out with books anywhere near the frequency TSR did with 2e material. Furthermore the books they are coming out with are tighter print, more pages, less "fluff", and cost only $2.00 more than a book printed a decade ago. (Complete book of Paladins cost $18.00 MSR, as did "... Druids"). (FYI "Oriental Adventures was 144 pages, $15.00 in 1985, nearly 20 years ago). Based on my definition of a "splat book" Kenzer & Company is not making "splat" books, rather they are using the license and keeping afloat. A bit of a difference there. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 109] Author : theDwarf Date : 03-23-04 02:43 AM Thread Title : Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Out Of Print But On The Table Originally posted by theDwarf Shame the link didn't work :( I would have liked to compare the differences myself. I got it to work (had to edit it, register, and search for a while, but I did find it ... I crossed off every item on the list that HM doesn't do that 2e does (just off the top of my head ... I put ? by everything I wasn't certain of and circled the changes I was positive about). I counted 35 "X". That means HackMaster has at least 35 of the 94 points in common with 1e rather than 2e (I only circled 21 leaving me unsure of about 38 off the top of my head). Funny thing is the X's seemed to be, on average, more important points than the O's (training, classes, spells per level, level titles, half-orcs, racial minimums, class minimums, sub-classes, strongholds, class spell lists, Weapon vs Armor, natural 20, two-weapon fighting, a lot about magic-users, druids, spell components, etc). :D -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 110] Author : Sarta Date : 03-23-04 03:56 AM Thread Title : Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Out Of Print But On The Table Originally posted by theDwarf HM: Spellslinger's Guide (July 2002) Combatant's Guide Gawds & DemiGawds (May 2003) Zealot's Guide (July 2003) Griftmaster's Guide (Sept 2003) So far HM is no where near up to 2e's level of "splat books" (more on par with 1e in that regard).... You seem to be forgetting the 8 book set of a monster manual.... and then the 2 additional books to enhance and summarize all them critters. Sarta -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 111] Author : theDwarf Date : 03-24-04 03:17 AM Thread Title : Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Out Of Print But On The Table Originally posted by Sarta You seem to be forgetting the 8 book set of a monster manual.... and then the 2 additional books to enhance and summarize all them critters. Sarta Nope. Not forgotten, just didn't want to have to mention the plethora of 1e and 2e monster books and suppliments, especially when with HackMaster you can use any of them plus the Monster Matrix, or just the Field Manual plus the Monster Matrix. 1600 base monsters ... how many books did 1e/2e take to cover that many? How much info was there? Etc. Too messy a subject (this from a guy with no less than two Monstrous Compendium Annuals). Besides, the talk was "splat books", not core :D -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 112] Author : Stonebeard Date : 03-27-04 08:25 PM Thread Title : Re: Out Of Print But On The Table Originally posted by HumanTorch I want some opinions from the folks here. Do you think that Wizards Of The Coast now Hasbro is obligated to support the open-ended games like original D&D and AD&D? Now I gave the latest version a try but its too trendy and heavy ruled. Honestly, I could scream all day about how much I hate it. But thats not what this is about. What about alternatives? I'd like to see a reprint of the original system and followed up by new adventures in the original format. Anybody else agree with this? Thanks for reading this! ;) In a sense yes, I think they should let jim butler of bastion press go ahead and convert the old non D&D products into PDFs as was originally agreed to. Don't let Gang Buster's and Gamma World fool you, there won't be any star frontiers, top secret, boothill or any of those other cool old games. Dirty pool going back on your word WoTC! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 113] Author : SiHacker22 Date : 03-28-04 06:47 PM Thread Title : Classic 1st Edt Support Classic 1st Edt Support, sorry to say isn't not gonna happen, Wizards would have to then admit that it still extremely popular and they want us to buy new not old. I loved Classic 1AD&D, and still play it, if you wand brand new stuff, Hackmaster is your best bet, they are re-releasing a lot of the original quests/modules but you might have to put up with their sick sence of humour that runs through their stuff. Online games like EverQuest & Darkages of Camerlot, is the fature of Gaming, Pen & Paper Gaming is quickly dying unless some smart person can come up with a novel Vertial Gaming Table where you can all sit around and play, Like Magic -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Downloaded from Wizards Community (http://forums.gleemax.com) at 05-10-08 08:21 AM.