* * * Wizards Community Thread * * * -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Thread : Interesting Experience Differentials between 1e and 3e Started at 03-31-04 05:50 PM by GreyLord Visit at http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=211812 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 1] Author : GreyLord Date : 03-31-04 05:50 PM Thread Title : Interesting Experience Differentials between 1e and 3e Hmm, We had a group level up this week from first to second level. We've had 5 gaming sessions each about 4 to 6 hours apiece. They've killed multitudes of goblins and orcs to get to 2nd level. So I started doing the math in my head on what level they'd be if we were playing 3e. You know...it's not even funny, but they'd probably be somewhere between 5th and 7th level! Probably not much of interest, but I found it interesting looking at how many Goblins and Orcs and toss in a Goblin Chieftan into that mix, that they've chopped up, whilst discovering a plot by a neighboring kingdom to invade their homeland, saving several hundred villagers from being eaten whilst the agents of the other kingdom gathered up people on the roads so that when they invaded, they'd have an easy food source for all the goblin troops they were using, and the multiple quests go on and on concerning what the group has done... And thought to myself...WoW...now that's interesting. Another group of mine finally got to third level (all three of them that survived...started with seven...lost 3 the first few sessions, had them reroll, and then 4 were killed in the boss encounter, and another one sort of dead sort of not-hard to explain-so really only two adventurers that survived to go on to the next adventure (thinking about combining the this weekend group with my weekly group). Looking at that as well, I think I'm a rather evil DM. I think I also know why, when I was DMing a 3e campaign, why everyone shot up in levels so quickly. In 1e it says in the DM for people to level up around every 6 sessions, which I try to keep to. Sometimes I have to run the sessions a rather long time so they get enough experience to get to that point, but I try to keep it so they level up every 6 weeks or so (every 6 gaming sessions). However, in 3e they level up just about every session. I think I ignore what it says for the CR and just toss hordes of monsters at the players during an encounter. Of course, in 3e they typically are a little more powerful than their 1e counterparts, even at 1st level, so it's not so drastic as it is in 1e and the massive numbers of 1st level and 2nd level characters that my players have been losing (it's like a plague, their characters just can't seem to survive my adventures many times). Just a little interesting item that I noticed. If the experience were applied equally, they'd be a much higher level in 3e than in 2e. Actually, the players might be nearing 8th or 9th, as I don't give out experience in 1e for monsters overcome...only killed (yeah, it inspires players to be evil...which is a bad thing if they need to stay good aligned...or even need to be law aligned in some cases). In 3e I'd hand it out if they overcame the obstacle whether the monster was killed or not. Interesting observations...ne pas? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 2] Author : Stonebeard Date : 03-31-04 07:43 PM To play the devil's advocate I do believe this is the result of trying to accentuate role playing for XP purposes in 3e rather than the dungeon drive by hacking 1e is prone to, if not constrained by a strong handed DM. Yes, in 3e this has the end result of rampant levelling if not also curtailed by a strong handed DM. The moral of this story, I guess, would be never go strictly by the book. I haven't seen a game of D&D (any version) that could last long without capable DMs... and of course capable players make life much easier for any DM. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 3] Author : SamualT Barronsword Date : 04-01-04 10:31 AM Originally posted by Stonebeard To play the devil's advocate I do believe this is the result of trying to accentuate role playing for XP purposes in 3e rather than the dungeon drive by hacking 1e is prone to... Going up levels faster in 3E as opposed to 1E or 2E helps 'accentuate role playing for XP purposes..."? How does that work exactly? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 4] Author : Elendur Date : 04-01-04 01:10 PM 3E levels about 2 twice as fast but I play about 4 times less than 1984 when I was 12 and playing 1E. So it works out ok. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 5] Author : Stonebeard Date : 04-01-04 08:14 PM In previous versions of D&D you got xp for killing monsters and this was the primary source of experience. I think (and mind I know only enough of 3e to know Its not for me) that in 3e your primary source of xp is just playing the game ie roleplaying. Going up in levels faster does not accentuate roleplaying, this is where 3e misses the mark and needss, as previously indicated, a good DM to prevent this from happening. In retrospect, earlier versions of D&D need a good DM to keep the game from falling into one predicable hack fest after another. The main point being, any version of D&D needs a good DM to keep things working as the should. Originally posted by SamualT Barronsword Going up levels faster in 3E as opposed to 1E or 2E helps 'accentuate role playing for XP purposes..."? How does that work exactly? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 6] Author : Megamanfan Date : 04-02-04 12:06 AM Originally posted by Stonebeard I think (and mind I know only enough of 3e to know Its not for me) that in 3e your primary source of xp is just playing the game ie roleplaying. Nope, you still get the bulk of your XP from killing things and taking their stuff. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 7] Author : Sildatorak Date : 04-02-04 02:53 PM Originally posted by Megamanfan Nope, you still get the bulk of your XP from killing things and taking their stuff. 3e actually got rid of the xp reward for monetary treasure rule from 2e (I don't know if that was in 1e or not). That compensates for some of the differential, but not all of it. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 8] Author : Wyrmbane Date : 04-03-04 07:39 AM No, people are still playing 1 and 2e. And WotC didn't get it right, otherwise we wouldn't have 3e, we'd have more Greyhawk. And the main reason nobody is posting here anymore is because of all the 3e people wanting to extoll the virtures of 3e. I guess 47 boards for 3e isn't enough, gotta have one more. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 9] Author : beavis123 Date : 04-03-04 08:04 AM Thread Title : Prove me wrong The same people claim to play the games, and when asked to tell us about their games, no replies. Once again, please share with us your current experiences with 1e or 2e. thank you!! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 10] Author : Wyrmbane Date : 04-03-04 01:24 PM I have an ongoing campaign (H series), currently the party is getting ready to go to hell and take on Orcus. Another game, the party is composed of elves. They've defeated the giants, drow, and Lolth (GDQ 1-7). More recently, the last game entailed stopping Strahd. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 11] Author : Stonebeard Date : 04-03-04 09:16 PM Thread Title : Re: Prove me wrong Right you are sir, I don't play 1e anymore. I can't find players. So rather than play 3e i play my gameboy! Is that what you wanted to hear? Originally posted by beavis123 The same people claim to play the games, and when asked to tell us about their games, no replies. Once again, please share with us your current experiences with 1e or 2e. thank you!! I'll bet 1000 gold my sarcasm is lost on this guy. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 12] Author : Tenzhi Date : 04-04-04 01:20 AM Originally posted by SamualT Barronsword Going up levels faster in 3E as opposed to 1E or 2E helps 'accentuate role playing for XP purposes..."? How does that work exactly? Well, if you have to kill more things to gain a single level in 1E/2E than 3E then killing things is more important in 1E/2E than it is in 3E. Ergo, by making the killing less important you automatically accentuate the role-playing aspect. Or something. (Heck, not only do you have to kill more things for a level in earlier editions, it was the best way to get magic items, too - putting even more emphasis on the hack-factor). Personally, I always thought the levelling was a bit too slow in 2E anyway. Originally posted by the 123rd clone of Butthead's sidekick The same people claim to play the games, and when asked to tell us about their games, no replies. Once again, please share with us your current experiences with 1e or 2e. I'm playing in a 2E game right now as a half-elf Cleric/Mage. The only reason I'm doing it is because I'm sick of being the DM (I typically run a heavily house-ruled 3.xE game) and the only person I know who will run a game refuses to use the d20 rules (for reasons that I agree with to an extent (hence my house rules)). While I'm glad to be a player rather than a DM for awhile, all the things that used to annoy me about 2E are starting to annoy me again. The "up or down - which is better" factor... the NWP system... the ridiculous WP system... wacky weapon damage... racial restrictions on class and level... And I'm also getting annoyed by things that didn't used to bother me. Like group initiative, rolling initiative every round, and using a d10 for initiative for instance. But I also find myself happily re-embracing conventions of the game that I miss. Classes are classes - fighters fight and thieves thief. And the thief is the master of his skills - if he focuses he can have 90% in a couple of his skills by 5th level with decent scores in a few others... and he doesn't need to fight as well as the cleric. No one gets multiple melee attacks with a single weapon except for fighters. And magic items aren't something you buy down at the corner store from Giblet the Magical Chicken, nor are they something the party wizard easily mass-produces at will. Story-wise, what does one relate? The same basic things go on regardless of which edition you're playing. Right now we're chasing after the rightful heir to the sword of the Dale lands, butting heads with Zhentarim mages (Ithander?), and being generally annoyed by Elminster's scribe whilst foreshadowing of a Drow plot to take over the surface world that we'll have to foil is being prophesized to us by crazy old guys - typical daily happenings for an adventurer in the Best-Left-Forgotten Realms. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 13] Author : Algolei Date : 04-04-04 10:19 AM My 2e campaign by Algolei We're playing in a mock-Germanic medieval campaign world. All the characters are lower-classed villagers who begin play with little in the way of equipment. There is a baron building a brand new castle in the middle of their village green, although the work is progressing slowly. The baron, whom the villager have taken to calling the Duke (because my players keep forgetting he's not a Duke, so that's what they kept calling him until finally I started calling him that too) is absolutely, truly Neutral, and acts that way toward every problem that's brought before him--and one of my players has been bringing every little problem he has before the "Duke," annoying him no end! The village, of about 200 or so, had one law enforcement official (we tried calling him various titles until the players locked onto the term "sheriff"--what's the medieval German counterpart to the English sheriff, anyway?) who was killed by bandits at the beginning of the campaign. Since then, two PCs have been handed the job of "sheriff" (the first one died...during the commision of a crime in a distant city, now that I think about it!). Anyway, about the town: For every NPC I made up, I invented one or two secrets that would influence their behaviour. To date, very few of these secrets have been discovered by the party. For instance, the town elder is paranoid about letting anyone into his house because he has an insane son secretly living in his basement. The son has been digging tunnels for the past ten years, and has several secret exits from the house. At night, he prowls the countryside, causing fearful villagers to imagine horrible monsters roaming their fields by the dark of the new moon. Then there's the local merchant's consortium. They've built practically a castle of their own, and have paid bandits to rob anyone on the roads who do not fly the merchant's consortium's banner from their wagons and horses. Alas, the bandits they originally hired have been replaced by more sinister bandits who have moved into an old abandoned moat house (T1 - the Village of Hommlet). The merchants don't know about that, and are actively preventing the "sheriff" and his helpers from investigating too deeply into the matter by giving them other things to worry about. Meanwhile, the local temple where the villagers used to worship the local gods was given over to the temple of Mithras by the "Duke" (in exchange for certain favours from the high priests off in that distant city where that previous sheriff PC died in an unrelated incident). A rather high-level priest who had fallen into disfavour with the church hierarchy for his adventuring ways was put in charge of this local church, where he got rid of all the old idols and shrines and (basically forcefully) replaced the village's religion with that of his own. His helper priest, a much more congenial fellow, is the only priest most villagers ever see, the ex-adventurer preferring to brood in his private chambers, often drunk, often researching strange tombs, and occasionally sending off strange missives to his old adventuring band (that's something I haven't brought into the campaign yet; it's sort of being kept as a back-up for when my players "screw up the world" as they often do). A few of these dispatches have fallen into the hands of the bandits, who have passed them along to the evil priests working to restore the Temple of Elemental Evil far to the north. In the meantime, my players have spent a huge amount of time and effort cleaning out a small dungeon the villagers call "the Elf Hole" because they believed elves used to live in it. (It was actually a temple to older Germanic gods, including Eostre and Wodan.) A small band of hobgoblins had entered it from below, following cracks in the earth (a possible entry to an Underdark, if I decide one belows in my world). My players had unexpected trouble combatting these hobgoblins, because they had an unfortunate tendency to walk down whichever approach hallway the hobgoblins had set a trap in (they only ever had the resources to place one trap at any given time, thanks to the PCs). As soon as someone was hurt, the players would get nervous and decide to leave. Then the hobgoblins would venture out at night and raid a neighbouring farm, causing an outcry from the villagers that the PCs should do something. "Won't someone think of the children??" I would cry out (playing a village woman named Helga). Egads, it's been a fun game! My players are getting virtually nowhere, but we're having a ball! Heck, they've been to the moathouse on a couple of occasions, but have never managed to penetrate far into the basement before retreating for a few months to do something else!! Lately, a lot of travellers have been disappearing from the roads. The bandits have been delivering them to the evil priests beneath the moathouse, who have been creating a small army of zombies to repel (okay, destroy) the PCs next time they return. Mwah ha ha ha ha! :smirk: -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 14] Author : SiHacker22 Date : 04-04-04 10:44 PM Thread Title : Bloodstone My Classic DnD/Hackmaster Campaign Bloodstone This is the major city, in our campaign where the party work from, currently the party consists of 2 Male Human Fighters, 1 Female Elf Thief, 1 Female Human Warlock-who insists on wearing skimpy outfits to confuse her attackers, 1 Half-Orc Barbarian who has a terrible drinking problem as it nearly every time leads to a Bar Brawl. The Female Half-Elf Cleric & Female Halfling Explorer are currently dead, and their blessed remaines are in extremly expensive slightly special holy urns awaiting to be ressurected. Currently the party are hovering around 3-4th level and are partly through the adventure "Stinking Rats again" After causing a terrable brawl in the Inn of the weeping wench, the party were all arrested, tossed into a cell and left to rot for 3 days. Where they escaped only to find that the sewers to be worse off. Attacked by wererats and other nasty bits they returned to their cell and waited to be released. Their propossal to clean out the sewers accepted and together with 5 poor looking henchment they returned down to the ugly depth. All henckmen met a most ugly death including 2 party members the Cleric down a pit, skewered from the wall sides and the Halfling who fell down from the top of a large statue attempting to claim the fake diamonds and dodge the arrows from the attacking wererats. Anyway you get the drift, I guess the point here is I couldn't do the things I do as a Director in 3.5. I go out of my way to make thing difficult, tricky and scarcasticly fun. I fudge the rolls and cheat and work things to put the players in tight situations. And players actually die. They do eventally get zapped back to life again but its not a simple thing. But at the end of the Game my payers laugh, joke and remember the game, long into the years. If I get time I will post some of their journal notes up. Cheers SI -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 15] Author : WSmith Date : 04-05-04 12:46 PM Thread Title : Re: The most interesting (Continuity edit by WizO Jedi) And now I remember why I (and other gamers WHO DO PLAY older editons) don't come to these boards. :rolleyes: Just cause they don't come here doesn't mean they don't exist. I play first edition AND Basic/ Expert. I don't have to justify that to anonymous internet tough guys like someone who has a picture of Micheal Jackson for an avatar. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 16] Author : Lord Gwydion Date : 04-05-04 10:43 PM Originally posted by Tenzhi Well, if you have to kill more things to gain a single level in 1E/2E than 3E then killing things is more important in 1E/2E than it is in 3E. Ergo, by making the killing less important you automatically accentuate the role-playing aspect. Or something. This seems to be the case to me. In my d20 Modern game, the characters are now 3rd level, and they've been in a grand total of 2 battles. The first was a shootout with a madman in a warehouse, and they ended up capturing the guy. The second was a skirmish in a parking lot with a trio of thugs. One of the PCs took down a thug with his shotgun, a thug took down the Smart hero with a pistol, the PCs grabbed the Smart, hopped in their van, and ran away. All the rest of their experience has come from roleplaying, skill checks at appropriate times, and exploration. If they'd done all that in 1E D&D, they'd barely have any XP at all. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 17] Author : protonik Date : 04-06-04 01:02 AM Thread Title : Re: Interesting Experience Differentials between 1e and 3e Originally posted by GreyLord So I started doing the math in my head on what level they'd be if we were playing 3e. You know...it's not even funny, but they'd probably be somewhere between 5th and 7th level! Y'know, much like you I used to fret and fuss over the XP chart and PC advancement then I started to notice something... it is self correcting, after so long the chart slows down PC progression and your example makes a BIG mistake... YOU FORGOT THE FACT THAT XP IS NOT BASED ON SLAUGHTERING SINGLE CREATURES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The XP chart in 3E awards less and less XP the bigger the difference between character level and Challenge Rating, so those Orcs that are worth 15 in your game eventually become worth JACK CRAP in 3E as far as PC progression goes for slaughtering them. Is progression faster than 2E? Only at early levels. 3E doesn't have the assumption of a name level progression like 1E and the 10th level isn't a "cap" so to speak, like in 2E. Not to say that prgression ends then, but it sort of stalls out, as in new abilities are few and far between unless you are a mage or other sort of spellcaster. Example. I have been running an FR game for three years now. Take off about 8 months of time total when we didn't game and in about 2 years worth of time the PCs are only 8th level, 9th level for the character that has been there from the beginning. Now factor in that everyone else has had 2 to 3 characters and we have a progression in levels not too dissimilar to 2E. I am not stingy with the XP either, I have extra bonuses I throw in as well. Sure some gaming groups have higher levels after the same period of time... but we play once a week for 4-6 hours a week. Your example, not even based on knowledge of the 3E XP system, at least not a working knowledge, is bunk on the bottom of my shoe, scraped off on the side of the road. Jason -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 18] Author : Zyphus Date : 04-06-04 02:24 AM Thread Title : Experience Differentials, experience or xp? My group converted from 2nd to 3rd and then to 3.5. We picked up new players on the way. My old players (I think we started in 1998) were 6th level and the newbies 1st starting in 2003. Now only a year since changing editions the old characters are 8th, and the newbies about 5th. My old players complain the new players had it easy and gained 5th level at lightning speed. My new players sometimes complain about how hard some encounters are (such as the lich, but it was a rigged encounter) but they do seem to be well balanced for the group. So yes, players gain levels much faster. I didn't think anyone would make 10th level this decade before we switched. An orc went up from 10xp to about 75 xp for a first level character, and the xp required dropped - the higher the level the more astounding the difference. But because of this 1xp is worth more in 3rd Ed. You don't need millions. You don't get it for gold or (the big one in 1st Ed) magic. You don't get it for using your skills or casting spells (like in 2nd Ed). Just challenges, roleplaying, and story awards. I like 3rd Ed much better than the earlier ones, but for published modules, I like the stories in the old ones. The Desert of Desolation series is about to end, and I have to do some homebrew stuff, and then I plan to either use some old Dungeon material (I dropped my sub after they integrated with Polyhedron) or use, get this, Keep on the Borderlands/Caves of Chaos. I've revamped it, and increased the levels of the leaders and such, but the layout is the same and the story focuses on the orc tribes there. So while an xp is better in 3rd+ Ed, I would say the reading/flavor of the old rulebooks and adventures was better. The stat block was nice and small and left more room for backstories and intrigue. The useless crap tables in the 1st Ed AD&D DMG is still my players' favorite thing to use. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 19] Author : GreyLord Date : 04-07-04 03:58 AM Protonik, You assume too much. I did not forget that in 3e XP is not based on slaughtering single creatures, in fact the entire crux of the math was based on the CR tables. It is the only way they could have advanced to the higher levels (remember, a 1CR encounter, if you increase the numbers enough, depending on whether you use the option in 3e, actually increases the CR, at least to a certain point within sanity, as it recommends, using DM discretion). I actually did the math in the 3e tables to figure these things out, but due to certain items (overcoming creatures but not killing them, which in 3e gives XP, but in 1e does not, doing certain actions and other such 3e XP givers, I had to estimate some items rather roughly...I did so typically on the conservative side...believe it or not). I DM both all versions of D&D, so I don't believe that I would actually forget something like that...but thanks for pointing it out. I agree, it could have been a big mistake if I had. I am aware of the so called cap at 10th level. This holds true for those DMs that give away treasure in 1e, in that case, 1e probably is a faster level advance than 3e after say...15 to 20th level. However, I'm rather stingy with treasure, if they even ever get that high (haven't had a high 1e level game, meaning name level or higher, in at least a little while), so typically they either kill or, or don't get XP. Good for warriors at low levels, and bad for Spellcasters typically it seems, looking at trends, but if we roll up high level characters to do a high level campaign, it seems the spellcasters actually do better than the warriors at high levels. I do handle XP differently in 3e than 1e, in that 1e I give out XP individually, in 3e it's much more spread among the group. Feel the love eh? I'm glad you run a 3e FR system for the past 3 years. I too could run such a game, though it would be vastly different than the ones I typically run. In the ones I typically run, if you want to start comparing 3e campaigns (which would actually be quite painful overall, as I've done several since 3e came out), the first group I DM'd hit 20th level in about 6 months. That's pretty darn fast. That was my typical DMing style. Now, I actually houserule on XP at times to the point that the MAX XP an encounter can give is 1/16th of the XP needed to get to the next level, no matter HOW many or how HIGH a CR they fight, but I find most 3e gamers don't like that. In fact, despite the DM option that I use, they seem rather prone to throw fits about the lack of XP in those situations. Ironically enough, it's the same gamers who in 1e are happy with the low XP awards that seem to cry out the loudest in my 3e games. Still, I wouldn't call myself exactly ignorant of 3e processes, but thankyou for your concern. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 20] Author : diaglo Date : 04-07-04 12:36 PM Thread Title : Re: Re: The most interesting Originally posted by WSmith And now I remember why I (and other gamers WHO DO PLAY older editons) don't come to these boards. :rolleyes: Just cause they don't come here doesn't mean they don't exist. ditto. i stopped coming here when the [insensitive 3E fans] reappeared. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 21] Author : Greyhack Date : 04-07-04 03:55 PM Originally posted by SamualT Barronsword Going up levels faster in 3E as opposed to 1E or 2E helps 'accentuate role playing for XP purposes..."? How does that work exactly? It doesn't. The 3e DMG (I haven't looked at the 3.5e DMG enough to know if this was changed) clearly states that role-playing based experience awards should never exceed 50xp per level or something like that. Experience in 3e comes from killing monsters for the most part, just like it did in each prior edition of the game. If anything, IMO, the fact that the DMG now states that roleplaying awards should be a small fraction of the total xp award is a step toward encouraging hack-n-slash, not promoting role play. I will add though, there is nothing wrong with hack-n-slash, and rewarding groups solely on what they kill is a perfectly fair way to reward the PCs (and it avoids unfairly punishing shy players). -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 22] Author : WizO_Jedi Date : 04-07-04 05:02 PM Stay civil, folks. :) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 23] Author : protonik Date : 04-08-04 12:42 AM Actually, I have been running my game almost the same way I did in 1E and 2E (I have been playing that long), XP awards and all. That has been our advancement. I don't think you needed to be so smarmy about my campaign though because I was just using it as an example of how XP works compared to your flubbed example, and it is flubbed a bit. Sure adding more creatures can be used to increase the CR but did you take into account that you can't gain more than enough XP in a single encounter (assuming you combined all the orcs into a single encounter in your calculation, correct me if I am wrong) to advance more than one level. Also, a group of stock orcs, no matter how big, is not a challenge to a party over a certain level. I sent 35 goblins at a group of 5 5th level characters (different campaign) and the PCs took very little damage and wiped the little buggers out. Not much of a challenge eh? Take into account feats like Great Cleave etc and the goblins are even less of a threat. I would grant no XP award in such a situation. I am stingy with treasure myself. I am not here to argue with you, but to discuss the pros and cons of XP systems. The XP system in 3e is great. I used to be wary of it, but leveling all depends on how you play. I was a little taken aback at the XP award in the DMG, luckily the 3.5 kind of upgrades it a bit. What I found intriguing is that the 50xLvl adds to quite a bit over the course of a few sessions, probably about the same as the suggested awards in the 2E DMG. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 24] Author : Lord Gwydion Date : 04-08-04 02:49 AM Originally posted by Greyhack Experience in 3e comes from killing monsters for the most part, just like it did in each prior edition of the game. If anything, IMO, the fact that the DMG now states that roleplaying awards should be a small fraction of the total xp award is a step toward encouraging hack-n-slash, not promoting role play. Actually, at 50XP/level, the story/roleplaying award isn't that much lower than the award for defeating a creature of your party's EL, assuming the designers did their math correctly. It has been stated that it takes 13-14 encounters of the PC's level to raise a group of 4 characters one level in 3E. With only the story/roleplaying awards, it would take 20 encounters (assuming the DM has a way to "beat" each encounter through proper roleplaying). If the group has 5 or 6 characters, it's probably actually faster to level up through story awards than through fighting monsters of the appropriate CR. Seems to me this would encourage roleplaying. If I remember the XP rules in 2E correctly, there was XP for creatures, but also XP for Thieves for finding traps/opening doors/etc., Wizards and Clerics got bonus XP for casting the right spell at the right time, etc. Did those awards go up with level? I don't remember that they did (although I could be wrong). If they didn't, it would make it harder and harder to go up levels simply by gaining these awards, since the amount of XP needed to gain the next level keeps getting higher and higher. I think that would encourage more hack and slash gaming. It's easier to kill one beholder than it is to open 500 locked doors. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 25] Author : diaglo Date : 04-08-04 07:30 AM Originally posted by Greyhack It doesn't. The 3e DMG (I haven't looked at the 3.5e DMG enough to know if this was changed) clearly states that role-playing based experience awards should never exceed 50xp per level or something like that. Experience in 3e comes from killing monsters for the most part, just like it did in each prior edition of the game. If anything, IMO, the fact that the DMG now states that roleplaying awards should be a small fraction of the total xp award is a step toward encouraging hack-n-slash, not promoting role play. I will add though, there is nothing wrong with hack-n-slash, and rewarding groups solely on what they kill is a perfectly fair way to reward the PCs (and it avoids unfairly punishing shy players). i think too you have to take into account the increased xp value of the monsters. a 15xp total value orc is now worth...upto 300xp for a party of 4 1st-3rd lvl adventurers. divide by 4 and you get 175xp each. plus the decreased value of level progression early on. so in earlier days each class was different but the rogue/thief being the lowest at...1251xp for first increase 2501xp for second increase. barbarian was at 6001 to gain first increase ;) now everyone is at 1000xp to gain the first increase. 3000xp to gain the second.;) it starts to even out by ...wait it never does if you stick to under Epic level -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 26] Author : Yorlum Date : 04-08-04 08:07 AM Originally posted by diaglo i think too you have to take into account the increased xp value of the monsters. a 15xp total value orc is now worth...upto 300xp for a party of 4 1st-3rd lvl adventurers. divide by 4 and you get 175xp each. plus the decreased value of level progression early on. so in earlier days each class was different but the rogue/thief being the lowest at...1251xp for first increase 2501xp for second increase. barbarian was at 6001 to gain first increase ;) now everyone is at 1000xp to gain the first increase. 3000xp to gain the second.;) it starts to even out by ...wait it never does if you stick to under Epic level What he said! That said, however, I admit that I have excercised my right as GM to modify the system. I'd like to ask my fellow Paleo-gaming Grognards who else modded the xp award system? I have almost always awarded points for non-combat victories and game accomplishments [disarming traps, solving puzzles, talking your way out of a battle]. If you want to avoid having your party turn the game into an arcade, reward them for avoiding unnecessary fights. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 27] Author : LordofIllusions Date : 04-08-04 11:38 AM Originally posted by Sildatorak 3e actually got rid of the xp reward for monetary treasure rule from 2e (I don't know if that was in 1e or not). That compensates for some of the differential, but not all of it. I play 3e now, but I remember receiving XP for monetary treasure in 2e. Man I miss the 2e days(Although I do like the 3e rule set.). :( It seems that more than a few of the posters on the 3e boards are young kids looking to change DnD into a video game. You should see some of the threads. :rolleyes: ~~~ -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 28] Author : DarthRicker Date : 04-08-04 12:20 PM Thread Title : Our campaign Our 3E campaign lasted over a year and the characters made it to 10th and 11th level before it ended in a TPK.:( -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 29] Author : GreyLord Date : 04-08-04 05:00 PM Originally posted by diaglo i think too you have to take into account the increased xp value of the monsters. a 15xp total value orc is now worth...upto 300xp for a party of 4 1st-3rd lvl adventurers. divide by 4 and you get 175xp each. plus the decreased value of level progression early on. so in earlier days each class was different but the rogue/thief being the lowest at...1251xp for first increase 2501xp for second increase. barbarian was at 6001 to gain first increase ;) now everyone is at 1000xp to gain the first increase. 3000xp to gain the second.;) it starts to even out by ...wait it never does if you stick to under Epic level Actually it's 75 XP per character, and that's only to ~6th level. But basically your along the right lines. I figured in the rules correctly, please, no more trying to second guess my math (no this is not focused at Diaglo, as he never tried to second guess my math in the first place...others have though). Plus, as per the rules, I only allowed characters to level up once every gaming session, and only if they were trained and found someone to train them. Not that I made it difficult for them to train, but they still had to train, if not with someone, in some way that was plausible and made sense. Hence, between game sessions, unless I had it end on a cliff hanger, in 3e the players always seem to be in the Limbo time training. Though 3e goes up quickly, even if (such as at 1st level) the characters go enough experience to go up to 3rd, I'd restrict it to 1 level. BUT this is how it works. Typically they'd face a 2 CR battle sometime (yes, you don't need to ask, I'm one of those types of DM's...low levels die like flies) when they were 1st level. However, taking only a typical battle of a 1 CR divided by 4 (2 orcs we'll say...how wimpy...it takes at least 4 orcs against a 4 PC party to make things interesting, and that's only if they don't have a MU that uses sleep) means each will get 75 XP. The same battle in 1e (sorry, didn't do any XP differentials between 2e and 3e...don't have any 2e party's currently, and not into 2e as much as 3e currently) there would be 2 orcs worth around an average of 15 XP (10 + 1XP/HP I believe, typically do that off the top of my head after all these years, really should get back to the books, but don't have as many rule lawyers for 1e nowdays). per Orc, or 30 XP total. This means the characters would get around 7 XP each. Now figuring it out... 75 = 7.5% of 1000 XP for 3e 7 = .56% of 1250 (that's being generous actually, since that's the thief's XP table, just about the fastest leveling table out there in 1e). for 1e. Up until 6th level, the group STILL recieves around 75 XP for the same encounter if I remember correctly so taking 6th level percentages 75 = 1.5% of the XP needed to go up a level, STILL 3X the amount comparatively in relation to the 1e 1st level (and remember, its still compared to 3e). Now the last level they can get XP for 1CR encounters woudl be 8th level, which would be at 50 XP per character for that encounter. This would be 50/ 8000 = .625% which is STILL higher percentage wise than what one would get in 1e (and once again, remember it's the thieves tables there, this is actually being rather nice to 3e in comparison for XP purposes, giving 3e the benefit of the doubt). Now my tables might be off a little, as I'm doing it off the top of my head, (I'm not DMing here, so no I don't have my books exactly in front of me, but if I'm close, you can see that I do actually know enough about 3e XP not to be an idiot like some might think). Luckily I added in the CR levels for multiple monsters as groups (instead of including them as individual creatures) and gave 3e all sorts of benefits which probably made my comparison more on the conservative side as too how much the 1e party would have leveled up if there were in a 3e game. (as I said it might be nearer 8th or 9th levels if I hadn't done some of the nifty little math tricks and XP manipulations! especially when looking at CR for the higher levels). So here you can see a more detailed analysis of the XP comparisons, as per what Diaglo was pointing out. Of course it would be different if I gave out treasure at low levels, but I like to keep them weak, makes the game more exciting. So instead it's only for kills. Now it is noted that groups of creatures elevate the CR rating, which overall may give less XP than the one to one CR, but at the lower levels it actually is close to 2x if double the monsters, and other such items. You have to go pretty far down the tables to get percentages that are low enough to equal 1e as per XP per kill. So I settled on between 5th and 7th level (depending on how I figured it in CR and other items) with 5th actually being the lowest overall in comparison with all things considered. PS: As an answer to Diaglo, I think 3e XP might start catching up to 1e...at least for the lower XP needed PC classes at....oh around 220th to 250th level, or thereabouts...maybe. :D -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 30] Author : protonik Date : 04-08-04 11:57 PM I concede your point and I wasn't insulting you, just bringing into question experience with the system and the rather loose way you described the system in the first post. I still prefer 3e and get results similar to 2e though... Do you think maybe the XP chart was modified due to the lack of monetary reward XP? We never gave that out in my groups, I thought it was stupid. Jason -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 31] Author : Wyrmbane Date : 04-09-04 12:08 AM I have never given out XP for money. I have given out XP for good ideas, solving puzzles, disarming any Grimtooth traps and surviving, or good teamwork and role-playing. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 32] Author : Maerik the Mystic Date : 04-09-04 12:20 AM The one thing I would like to point out is that it's all up to the DM, I myself award xp, depending on how the group and individuals play and what they accomplish. BUT I never give xp for gold or gem's. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 33] Author : diaglo Date : 04-09-04 09:14 AM Originally posted by GreyLord Actually it's 75 XP per character, and that's only to ~6th level. But basically your along the right lines. oops..that is what i get for typing too fast. at first i thot it was 400xp for the orc...and started to type 100xp per PC. and then i remembered it was 300xp ...and typed 75xp... but i forgot to remove the initial 1 from the 100 :embarrass actually at 4th lvl the value of the orc goes down in the 2000ed. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 34] Author : GreyLord Date : 04-09-04 03:44 PM Originally posted by diaglo oops..that is what i get for typing too fast. at first i thot it was 400xp for the orc...and started to type 100xp per PC. and then i remembered it was 300xp ...and typed 75xp... but i forgot to remove the initial 1 from the 100 :embarrass actually at 4th lvl the value of the orc goes down in the 2000ed. Oops, my bad. I did figure something like that had happened when you were typing though. :) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 35] Author : mybrainhurts Date : 04-11-04 08:14 AM I think that exp for a 2ed hack and slash was much lower than 3e, but for certain other campaigns, 2e exp would be larger, the reason for this is that the majority of exp in 3e is based directly around combat, which, granted, can mean cleverly bypasssing combat, while in 2e, although any encounter would give less exp, playes got exp for doing a wider variety of things. For example under the experience chapter of the Dark Sun Rules book (I'm sorry about the obscurity but I really cannot be bothered fishing out the reast of my AD&D books) All Warriors 10xp/level per hit die of any creature defeated Fighter 50xp/day to Stand commanded in combat or war 100xp/day for contruction or defence of war machines. All Wizards 50xp/spell level for spells cast to defeat foes or problems 500xp/spell level for successfully researching a spell XP value for magic item made (yes, you receive xp for making magical items) and xp awards for races as well. Half-elf 50xp to observe human or elven custom 250xp to better a human or elf in custom. and so on. Hence, apart from warrior classes (and battlemages) the majority of xp is not gained from combat, so hence the references to xp given for killing an orc or whetever are somewhat innaccurate. besides, depending on how your group plays (or how much you attempt to exploit xp gaining methods), one can easily gain more xp per session in 2e, which is counterbalanced by the fact that classes tended to require more xp per level. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 36] Author : Lord Gwydion Date : 04-11-04 08:07 PM I guess I come from a different old school than some of the other people here. When I played OD&D and 1E, we did give XP for treasure (but not for magic items, getting something magical was reward enough). In that way, clearing out a small outpost of orcs (say 10 plus one ogre) would gain the group maybe a little over 200 XP (don't remember how much the ogre was worth), but the 500 gp in treasure would bag them another 500 XP. If they played well, they might get another small XP bonus, and under OD&D rules, they also got a +10% XP bonus for having a prime requisite score over a certain level. With all that factored in, characters received more than 15 XP for each orc they killed. At higher levels, taking out a dragon or giant or vampire would get a few thousand XP for the group, but that monster's treasure hoard would gain them XP in the 5 digit range. Characters in the 3.X versions do gain XP faster, and need less to level up, but the XP gain in OD&D wasn't as slow as it might seem now. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 37] Author : protonik Date : 04-13-04 02:23 AM Have any of you checked out the alternate XP system in Dragonlance... looks to sort of coincide a bit with the need for a roleplaying xp system as opposed to the hack fest. I prefer the standard system myself, but for a roleplaying intensive game... perfect. Jason -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Downloaded from Wizards Community (http://forums.gleemax.com) at 05-10-08 08:21 AM.