* * * Wizards Community Thread * * * -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Thread : Forgoten Realms = Greyhawk-yes indeedy Started at 04-04-04 01:49 AM by priest of blipdoolpoolp Visit at http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=213909 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 1] Author : priest of blipdoolpoolp Date : 04-04-04 01:49 AM Thread Title : Forgoten Realms = Greyhawk-yes indeedy A touchy subject, but as an 'old timer' of D&D, I've always wondered: Where in the heck did Forgoten Realms come from? I mean, in the beginning was Greyhawk... Then during second edition came Forgoten Realms with its sudden supposed ownership of drow (which was Gygax's creation, ie. Queen of Spider's stuff), then Forgotten Realms specific monsters in the Monsters Compendium stuff (which were all Greyhawk monsters) If you really think of it, all of the monsters from the original Monster Manual, Fiend Folio, and MM2, are original Greyhawk monsters... That being said, the only original monster Forgotten Realms has, is the Deep Spawn, to my knowledge. So, was Forgotten Realms just a way to separate D&D from the 'old school' creators of D&D' or... I'm curious; it just seems like a strange thing for one D&D world to rip off another, older, already existent and well established D&D world. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 2] Author : Ranger REG Date : 04-04-04 03:12 AM Can't be any worse than Dragonlance is using the death knight from the old Fiend Folio. AFAIC, they're all fair game, and when then-TSR bought the FR setting from Ed Greenwood, they're allowed to make use of the currently published monster supplements. They've also introduced some new ones, like the phaerimms. Besides, let us not forget that D&D was "inspired" by classic fantasy literatures, including Tolkien's. But they changed it slightly to avoid getting sued by them, especially when they got a C&D letter for the unauthorized use of "hobbit." Yeah, "rip off" is such a harsh word, best used by intellectual property lawyers. :D -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 3] Author : Seeker95 Date : 04-04-04 09:24 AM Forgotten Realms began in 1986. Hardly "separate from old school". It was spawned by a series of Dragon Magazine articles by Ed Greenwood. When TSR was shopping for a new setting to publish (since they didn't think DragonLance was going to stay marketable for long), they asked Ed to flesh out the world he had been developing. The Realms were born. And they never went away. They just went awry. I don't (and won't) play an FR campaign, but I thank TSR and WotC for continuing the setting, if for no other reason than to keep the designers' hands off my Greyhawk. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 4] Author : WizO_Catoblepas Date : 04-04-04 09:46 AM Well, keep in mind that (a) there were other worlds prior to Forgotten Realms (Dragonlance, Mystara, Blackmoor ...) prior to Forgotten Realms and (b) Dungeons and Dragons was somewhat divided at the time (there was the AD&D and Basic/Expert D&D). Thus, I really don't think it was an attempt to try to delineate the gaming public, but more of a way to expand. At any rate, I"ll move this to the Out of Print board since much of this genesis for this question came from material that is out of print. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 5] Author : Faraer Date : 04-04-04 02:48 PM Ed Greenwood began the Realms in 1967 as a setting for short stories. In 1975 he adapted his world to the quantified monsters and magic (though it already used Vanceian magic) of D&D and began his first long-running campaign, starring the Company of Crazed Venturers. Ed's Realms-set Dragon articles, starting in 1979, led TSR to publish his world in 1987 (for 1st edition AD&D). After TSR management threw out Gary Gygax, it did want to distance itself from Greyhawk and threw some of that energy into the Realms, but Ed and many other authors of the Realms like and respect Greyhawk's world. The World of Greyhawk began in the early 1970s, but its final published geography was made up for the original 1980 folio. Pre-publication, the Realms was just one of thousands of home settings that used monsters and other elements from AD&D-Greyhawk. No one claims the Realms owns drow. There are hundreds of original Realms monsters, though, some of them published in Ed's early Dragon articles. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 6] Author : priest of blipdoolpoolp Date : 04-08-04 02:27 AM Crapola- my suspicions were right. Oh whelp, glad to hear that Greyhawk is at least alive and well under a different name. ie. Forgotten Realms... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 7] Author : Faraer Date : 04-08-04 09:05 AM Greyhawk is alive and well with Living Fantasy, Castle Zagyg, and other recent works of Gary Gygax; or, if you prefer, the various Living Greyhawk stuff. Your suspicions were wrong (if they were suspicions, how come 'yes indeedy'?); as someone who likes both a great deal (for some of the same reasons and for some very different ones), I can tell you that the Realms, despite drawing on many of the same sources in 20th-century fantasy fiction, has a quite different sensibility, and would be a perfectly viable world even if for some reason you removed all the AD&D-Greyhawk elements (which were published precisely for inclusion in home campaigns; do you think the only legitimate use of the Monster Manual in 1977 was to play in the World of Greyhawk which hadn't been published?). -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 8] Author : priest of blipdoolpoolp Date : 04-08-04 02:51 PM Picked up a Forgotten Realms suppliment... More detailed world than I suspected Perhaps I spoke too hastily. Reading... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 9] Author : Dugald the Lexicographer Date : 04-09-04 08:39 PM Some of the FR novels do a fair job of explaining the relationships between the worlds. The gods exist in many worlds, in many realities, and have waxing and waning influence depending on their base of followers in a particular setting. That's why Lolth (or Loth) exists in both. Of course, like many things in D&D, the bleed over came first, and then the authors came up with a way to explain it! Read some of Elaine Cunningham's novels (Elves of Evermeet is one that touches on a lot of the pantheon backstory). I find it satisfying to find an explanation that fits the situation, is self-consistent, and provides some richness to the backdrop. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 10] Author : Kuje31 Date : 04-09-04 08:48 PM Originally posted by Dugald the Lexicographer Some of the FR novels do a fair job of explaining the relationships between the worlds. The gods exist in many worlds, in many realities, and have waxing and waning influence depending on their base of followers in a particular setting. That's why Lolth (or Loth) exists in both. Of course, like many things in D&D, the bleed over came first, and then the authors came up with a way to explain it! Read some of Elaine Cunningham's novels (Elves of Evermeet is one that touches on a lot of the pantheon backstory). I find it satisfying to find an explanation that fits the situation, is self-consistent, and provides some richness to the backdrop. 3e changed most of the novel info. As an example, each Lolth is now a seperate Lolth. The Lolth of FR is NOT the same Lolth of Greyhawk, when in 2e's Multiverse they were the same being. Yes it leaves glaring holes in FR's history and sourcebooks but the 3e designers don't care. This stands true for any power or high level demon/devil, etc, that existed in both settings. As well as the planes that exist in each setting. The Hell's of FR and not the same Hells of Greyhawk, in 3e. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 11] Author : protonik Date : 04-11-04 01:22 AM Man, this is something I used to thinks as well but it just isn't true. Sure there are a lot of elements that are very, very similar BUT the feel of the settings is very different. I liken it to television shows and movies etc. Greyhawk is like a fantasy novel by Lieber, Howard or Vance. Fun, mythical but very dark, almost a sense of hopelessness at times. Very pulpy. Dragonlance is Lord of the Rings hand over fist. Playing Dragonlance campaigns is like playing a LOTR game because the emphasis is on stories and character development. There are a lot of character arcs and a lot of big, exciting things always happening. Forgotten Realms is like Xena in that it is light hearted at times, but has a dark streak and a lot of interesting machinations from the gods. Can be like the LOTR movies as well. FR forms a nice happy medium between the two which is why it is more successful. Jason -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Downloaded from Wizards Community (http://forums.gleemax.com) at 05-10-08 08:21 AM.