* * * Wizards Community Thread * * * -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Thread : What is better, Immortals or Deities? Started at 05-07-04 05:03 PM by OD&D fan Visit at http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=235251 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 1] Author : OD&D fan Date : 05-07-04 05:03 PM Thread Title : What is better, Immortals or Deities? I’m starting this thread on three relevant boards: Mystara, OPP, and Deities and Demigods. I’m wanting to get people’s opinions about what is better, Immortals or Deities? I am mainly an OD&D gamer, and one of my greatest disappointments with the newer versions is their lack of support for Immortal characters. I much prefer Immortal characters to deities. Certainly Immortals aren’t as powerful. I’m sure even the highest ranking Immortal from an OD&D campaign would be no match for a deity in 3E. But here is why I prefer Immortals: From the perspective of mortal PCs, a campaign dominated by Immortals is fairly similar to one dominated by deities. Instead of deities, Immortals are worshipped as gods. So I don’t believe using Immortals instead of deities is much different from the perspective of the mortal realm. Unlike deities, mortals can become Immortal. Okay, I don’t own the Deities and Demigods book. But by flicking through it at the gaming store I was surprised to learn that there are only a couple of pages of notes about how a character might become a deity. In the OD&D system (the old master set), there were several complex and difficult sets of tasks a character could undertake to become Immortal. I really don’t want to prompt a debate about which gaming edition is better, but I do much prefer the idea that PCs can earn Immortality after many trials and tribulations. As an Immortal character, players were given an entire plane of existence on which they could create planets, stars, even entire galaxies. And on which they could cultivate their on mortal life forms to serve them. This really was a fascinating part of the game, and players could be much more creative than they had in the past. For example, a player might work with the DM to create races of angelic beings to serve their characters and aid them in their goals. After playing as a mortal character for 2 or 3 years, journeying to the outer planes and encountering Immortal beings, it was extremely fulfilling to be able to transcend the realm of mortality and involve yourself in Immortal politics. Players could take an active role in the maintenance and development of the multiverse. I’m sure there are lots of other reasons as to why I prefer Immortals over deities, but I would like to get other peoples opinions. I thought the Immortal accessorys to the old rules were definitely the greatest gaming idea in the history of D&D (just my opinion), and I really can’t understand why WotC does not produce an accessory which explains how DMs can incorporate Immortal characters into their campaigns. A 3E Immortal accessory would have to explain rules for playing Immortal characters, how mortals can become Immortal, and rules for maintaining and developing the home plane. Why has WotC dumped the Immortal rules? Do they feel there would not be enough support for this type of gaming experience? Should WotC create a 3E accessory to explain how to play Immortal characters? And which is better, Immortals or deities? I’m hoping this thread won’t turn into a flame war, or an attempt to put down WotC. But I’m very interested in getting other people’s opinions about these questions. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 2] Author : vader42xx Date : 05-09-04 11:11 AM The biggest difference between immortals and gods is the way they are seen. As you pointed out, characters have the chance to become immortals (not gods per say...) in BD&D games and characters have no real option of becoming gods in 3e (it can be done but there are few real rules for it). However, there is something that you missed a bit. It's not WotC that left out immortals and rules for them. It's 1st, 2nd, and 3rd edition (two of which were put out by TSR). The key difference between BD&D and AD&D (I'll include 3rd edition in the AD&D list since it's close enough to AD&D for this sort of thing) is that BD&D supported a much higher level of play right out of the box. I don't know if that's because they took their time and playtested a few levels in each boxed set (and had many more thousands of hours to build on from OD&D) at a time or if some other cause can be found. But, whatever the reason, BD&D has a 36th level cap and you can even advance beyond that with immortal characters. But AD&D has a 20th level cap and you are intended to end your campaigns more or less at that level. Second edition and 3rd edition both have books that allow for games beyond that but neither of them work all that well (1e may have had "epic" rules of a sort, I'm not sure). In 2nd edition such rules tend to just cause for "bigger and badder" monsters. In 3e those same rules just mess everything up. The entire system changes, several mechanics change, etc. So, the point is that AD&D games become less fun after 20th level no matter what edition you're playing. The further you go beyond that the more the players want to start over or end with a "big bang." In BD&D, on the other hand, the game continues to get more and more interesting (to most of us at least) the further you advance. You, of course, want the thrill of a 1st level character again at some point but the game system described in the basic rules allows for greater levels of fun at greater levels of experience. So, the end result is that you really have no need for god-like characters in AD&D as the game would become a total bore. As for the "immortal" vs "god" question they're really the same thing. You said that a god from AD&D would pretty much wipe the floor with an immortal from BD&D but that's really the case with any concept in those games. If you take a 1st level 3e character and put that same power in a BD&D game he'd wipe the floor with all the other 1st level characters. In each edition of the game the power level has gone up a notch. That is really the only thing that seperates us gamers. Each addition has more power, and we pick an edition based on the level of power we want in our games. But "gods" and "immortals" are the same thing. TSR just didn't like using the term "god" in its early days. Once they were established a bit (and the times started to change so you had less "D&D is satanic") they started using the term "gods" themselves. Otherwise, it's the same concept. Anyway, just my two cents. :D -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 3] Author : OD&D fan Date : 05-09-04 04:08 PM Originally posted by vader42xx In BD&D, on the other hand, the game continues to get more and more interesting (to most of us at least) the further you advance. You make some very good points. What I don't understand is why WotC/TSR won't design a game system which reflects the play of OD&D/BD&D, i.e. a system which remains stable throughout low, high, and epic levels of play. You are right that the reason BD&D supported immortal characters so well was because the change from low to epic, and finally to immortal levels was easy and fun to make. The game did not fall apart as soon as you reached the level cap, and you could always continue to play. If this type of game system was possible back in the 1980s, why isn't it possible any more? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 4] Author : vader42xx Date : 05-09-04 07:12 PM It's still possible but you'd need to be playing a game that was as simple in its design as BD&D. That's why it worked in the first place. The more systems, rules, etc that you start adding to your game the more difficult it gets to keep power levels down and make later levels work as well as the early levels. That's why all the advanced games had level caps to begin with. The systems just start breaking down once you get to a certain point and it starts to become less and less fun. That's why BD&D is still my all time favorite! :) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Downloaded from Wizards Community (http://forums.gleemax.com) at 05-10-08 08:20 AM.