* * * Wizards Community Thread * * * -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Thread : Oriental Adventures...why? Started at 05-10-04 04:00 PM by Warhead Visit at http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=236811 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 1] Author : Warhead Date : 05-10-04 04:00 PM Thread Title : Oriental Adventures...why? Now don't get me wrong...I do like Oriental Adventures. But I've never understood the logic of having to have an Eastern part of your campaign world, as seems to be suggested in the 1st Edition "Oriental Adventures" and the subsequent welding of Kara-Tur onto, you guessed it, the east of Faerun. My only meta-game thought was that they were trying to tap into the Far Eastern market, and they didn't think an essentially Euro-centric mythological world would sell. Any better suggestions? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 2] Author : Falstaff the Fighter Date : 05-10-04 04:32 PM I think they were trying to cash in more on movies like Shogun and such than to really cater to any asian markets. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 3] Author : Solaris Date : 05-10-04 05:30 PM They already had monks, so this was a logical extension. With D&D already being based somewhat on a feudal European society, I don't have any problem with adding a feudal Japanese supplement for those who want to play samurai or ninjas or whatever. Any DM whose campaign world didn't happen to include such an area would, of course, be free not to use the supplement. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 4] Author : James McMurray Date : 05-10-04 05:33 PM There's nothing that says you have to have an eastern portion of your campaign world, but if you want one OA is th way to get there. Of the 30+ gamers I've known, at least 5 were japanese/chines history buffs. If that's a close cross-section of the whole RPG market, then making a game with an oriental feel is a great business idea. And besides, who doesn't want to be a Samurai? ;) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 5] Author : Serena DarkMyst Date : 05-10-04 06:40 PM I dont want to be a samurai. I want to be a monkey wu jen :mage: -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 6] Author : Sarta Date : 05-10-04 11:58 PM My thought is that TSR was trying to jump on the bandwagon caused by the excellent Fantasy Games Unlimited roleplaying game Bushido. Later editions reprinted versions because enough people enjoyed OA that it remained profitable. The original product was never solely intended to be "welded" into a Euro-centric world-setting. I think you will also notice that Ed Greenwood and TSR welded a lot of different style settings into the Realms. Between Kara-tur, the hordelands, Maztica, Mulhorand, Calimsham, and other locales the Realms became a patchwork quilt of different flavors of ancient and not so ancient earth settings. While this may have created an unusual fantasy setting, it did allow players and DM's to pick and choose influences that would not otherwise be available to them. If it makes you feel any better, the currently used version of Oriental Adventures is designed specifically with the Legend of the Five Rings setting, rather than Kara-tur. Sarta -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 7] Author : Lord Gwydion Date : 05-11-04 12:44 AM Well, I've never understood the logic of having to have elves, or gangly green trolls, or the spell Fireball in the game. Luckily, for me and everyone else, there's nothing in the game that demands you include any of these elements if you don't want. And those are all elements from the core rules, not a suplement. Assuming that a campaign world must have an Oriental setting (or an Occidental one for that matter) is something a lot of people do, since that's the way our own world works. Luckily, things like OA, psionics, epic levels, and the planes are all optional books, that a game can simply do without if no one wants to use them. And for the record, Euro-centric campaign settings (Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms--the core lands anyway, Dragonlance, Dark Sun, Ravenloft, Mystara, Birthright) do usually sell well. I don't think that was part of the marketing strategy for designing OA. "Hey, no one's buying this stuff for knights in shining armor, Merlin-esque wizards, and Nordic dwarves--the public must be clamoring for samurai and ninja!" Back to the reality of corporate marketing decisions--"We'd better give Dragon Fist away as a downloadable freebie because hardly anyone would pay for a Chinese kung-fu setting these days." Now, don't get me wrong. As anyone who frequents the OA forum will tell you, I love OA. I do like my wuxia and chanbara in my D&D. I realize, though, that I'm in the minority of gamers because of that preference, however. Every gaming group I've ever played with only played OA when I was the DM (and I didn't have one of my more occidental homebrew campaign settings ready to go). OA wasn't published to force people to use it. It was published to cater to a niche of the gaming market, just like all of the other optional books I mentioned above. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 8] Author : Gandalf_Istari Date : 05-11-04 02:20 AM Originally posted by Solaris They already had monks, so this was a logical extension. Not only were there monks in the 1st ed. PHB, but the Japanese and Chinese pantheons were included in Deities and Demigods, which was printed before OA and may well have generated some interest in having an "eastern" based set of rules and campaign setting. IIRC there were asian dragons and other monsters in the 1st ed. Monster Manuals and the Fiend Folio, and I believe those were published before OA was as well. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 9] Author : GreyLord Date : 05-11-04 03:13 AM As stated above, there were many who wanted to play ninjas and samurai, or be a warlord. Ninjas were popular back in the day... You don't think things like Mutant Ninja Turtles and other ideas came from nowhere did you!? :) PS: I can't help myself-have to post, cannot stop The REAL ULTIMATE NINJAS (http://www.realultimatepower.net/) after seeing that, who WOULDN'T want a Ninja for PC!? PS: For those who cannot figure it out, some of my above post IS tongue in cheek, and done just for the good ole fun of it. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 10] Author : Demon Lightfoot Date : 05-11-04 10:15 AM Yup, some people wanted "Oriental" stuff; if y'all own the Best Of The Dragon compilations or the Dragon Magazine CD, you'll find a goodly number of takes on Samurai, Ninja and Shaolin monks, among other Asian-influenced treats, well before the advent of OA. Flipping out and killing people is totally sweet. http://www.geocities.com/commander_frellnik/Emotes/ninjameditate.txt http://www.geocities.com/commander_frellnik/Emotes/ninja.txt -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 11] Author : Yorlum Date : 05-11-04 10:29 AM Originally posted by Demon Lightfoot [B]Yup, some people wanted "Oriental" stuff; if y'all own the Best Of The Dragon compilations or the Dragon Magazine CD, you'll find a goodly number of takes on Samurai, Ninja and Shaolin monks, among other Asian-influenced treats, well before the advent of OA. Yeahbut... The game draws monsters from all over, but there were Zero-Few subclasses added after PHB1. Keep in mind that early Dragon classes were for NPC's only, not PC's [eg the Samurai from #49]. In fact they made a point of telling you whenever they published one of these NPC classes that they were not designed to be played by the PC's. Now, In U/A, I submit that the U/A Barbarian is Nordic in flavor, while the Cavalier is traditional Euro-centered. I don't see any Oriental trend here, nothing that is a portent of a hardcover book. Given the timing of the book, I think it had more to do with cranking out a book to bring in $$$ than any long-range strategy. I recall reading that the DSG and OA were both rushed out when TSR was having financial troubles. Both are alike in that they are more a codifiaction of options and unofficial material than new material, and both were published very quickly. I can only suggest that Gygax and TSR had more Oriental material on hand than other types so it lent itself to a book more readily. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 12] Author : James McMurray Date : 05-11-04 11:24 AM In fact they made a point of telling you whenever they published one of these NPC classes that they were not designed to be played by the PC's. That's not right. Rules should apply equally to both the DM and the PCs. Perhaps an outcry of "we want to play too" from players prompted the printing of OA. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 13] Author : Yorlum Date : 05-11-04 11:38 AM Originally posted by James McMurray That's not right. Rules should apply equally to both the DM and the PCs. Perhaps an outcry of "we want to play too" from players prompted the printing of OA. Quite likely that is correct to a degree. The thing with these NPC classes were that they were overpowered relative to the PC classes; designed to challenge PC parties. So I have no doubt that the vintage 1983 Power gamers wanted to play Bandits, Witches, Ninja, and Samurais... because they were more powerful. And thus began the road which led to PR classes and half-celestials/half dragons ad nauseum. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 14] Author : Demon Lightfoot Date : 05-11-04 11:54 AM Originally posted by Yorlum Yeahbut... The game draws monsters from all over, but there were Zero-Few subclasses added after PHB1. Keep in mind that early Dragon classes were for NPC's only, not PC's [eg the Samurai from #49]. In fact they made a point of telling you whenever they published one of these NPC classes that they were not designed to be played by the PC's. Hand-waving, nothing more; people were gunna play them regardless of what TSR and Gary said. I know that I went through phases of "By the Word Of Gary and No Other" to "What the hell does he know" and back again during the first 5 years or so of my gaming life, and I'm pretty sure that everyone else did, too. If I'd had access to them, I'd have *****ed and moaned at, err, lobbied my then-DM to let me play one. Now, In U/A, I submit that the U/A Barbarian is Nordic in flavor, while the Cavalier is traditional Euro-centered. I don't see any Oriental trend here, nothing that is a portent of a hardcover book. There wasn't anything in UA covering "Oriental" sub-classes. Yes, and? Given the timing of the book, I think it had more to do with cranking out a book to bring in $$$ than any long-range strategy. I recall reading that the DSG and OA were both rushed out when TSR was having financial troubles. I think that you're a little confused; I've read (in Gary's own words) that part of the reason that UA & OA were put out was Teh Money, due to mis-management by the Blumes, but he'd wanted, according to Gary's preface to OA, to do an OA-esque book since before 1980. UA itself was largely made up of material that had seen previous publication in Dragon as official material for use in D&D games from Gary's column, earmarked for later compilation, edited and formatted for publication. Both are alike in that they are more a codifiaction of options and unofficial material than new material, and both were published very quickly. What? No, seriously, what? If the material is written, edited, produced and published by the parent company, just what makes it "unofficial"? Especially since follow-up material would have to take it into account when it's being written? I guess, also, that you meant "codification", but that still doesn't help that passage make much sense; everything's "unofficial" until it carries the corporate seal of approval. And what distinguishes "options and unofficial material" from "new material"? Especially since I don't recall seeing the DSG(and WSG) material elsewhere...I mean, that would signify "new" to me, but maybe this is a usage of the term "new" that I've been sheltered from all my life. Or are you just trying to cast the material in question in the worst possible light? I can only suggest that Gygax and TSR had more Oriental material on hand than other types so it lent itself to a book more readily. Again, according to Gary's preface to OA, he'd wanted to do an OA-type book since before 1980. Since OA was published in 1985, that's a goodly time to put together info. Hardly "rushed" James McMurray: That's how it was in 1e; there were NPC classes that players "weren't supposed to run". For a long Time I simply chalked it up to the Nature Of The Game, and just RP'd a Fighter as a Samurai/Ronin. *shrug* Re: "And thus began the road which led to PR classes and half-celestials/half dragons ad nauseum" -- bull. What would you call the 1e Bard but a Prestige Class? [Edited to excise excess sig. :eek: ] -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 15] Author : Warhead Date : 05-11-04 12:17 PM Originally posted by Falstaff the Fighter I think they were trying to cash in more on movies like Shogun and such than to really cater to any asian markets. Yeah, I can see the logic in that. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 16] Author : Warhead Date : 05-11-04 12:20 PM Originally posted by Solaris They already had monks, so this was a logical extension. With D&D already being based somewhat on a feudal European society, I don't have any problem with adding a feudal Japanese supplement for those who want to play samurai or ninjas or whatever.] I have no problem with it (I actually quite like the idea now). But what has always confused me is why at the time it was presented as a bolt-on that they thought would work. I confess, but I suspect I'm not alone, but at age 11 or whatever I was when OA came out, the only real fantasy I'd read was "Lord of the Rings". And bolting on feudal Japan, however coll samurai are, just didn't appeal to me. Any DM whose campaign world didn't happen to include such an area would, of course, be free not to use the supplement. Hey, I' m the guy that doesn't use dragons! Me and "optional" are old friends... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 17] Author : Warhead Date : 05-11-04 12:25 PM Originally posted by Sarta [B]My thought is that TSR was trying to jump on the bandwagon caused by the excellent Fantasy Games Unlimited roleplaying game Bushido. Later editions reprinted versions because enough people enjoyed OA that it remained profitable. Ah, now we're getting there...yes, that must have been a factor. The original product was never solely intended to be "welded" into a Euro-centric world-setting. Well, I beg to differ...the Gygax-penned intro to OA does ram the point home that it allows you to "open up the East" to your campaign, or words to that effect. I think you will also notice that Ed Greenwood and TSR welded a lot of different style settings into the Realms. Between Kara-tur, the hordelands, Maztica, Mulhorand, Calimsham, and other locales the Realms became a patchwork quilt of different flavors of ancient and not so ancient earth settings. While this may have created an unusual fantasy setting, it did allow players and DM's to pick and choose influences that would not otherwise be available to them. As I said, I like that aspect of the Realms, particularly Al-Qadim giving another familiar fantasy setting - that of genies, flying carpets and pointy boots - a place next to, well, hobbit-land. I find that a hell of a lot easier to swallow than Kara-Tur next door (but again, I don't dislike it). -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 18] Author : Warhead Date : 05-11-04 12:28 PM OA wasn't published to force people to use it. It was published to cater to a niche of the gaming market, just like all of the other optional books I mentioned above. I'm well aware of that. I'm trying to understand where that niche came from - in the UK, where I am (and was) based, I would be surprised if it was that popular. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 19] Author : Yorlum Date : 05-11-04 12:29 PM Originally posted by Demon Lightfoot Hand-waving, nothing more; people were gunna play them regardless of what TSR and Gary said. I know that I went through phases of "By the Word Of Gary and No Other" to "What the hell does he know" and back again during the first 5 years or so of my gaming life, and I'm pretty sure that everyone else did, too. If I'd had access to them, I'd have *****ed and moaned at, err, lobbied my then-DM to let me play one. The fact that you seem to want to Powergame does not make it a valid choice. I think that you're a little confused; I've read (in Gary's own words) that part of the reason that UA & OA were put out was Teh Money, due to mis-management by the Blumes, but he'd wanted, according to Gary's preface to OA, to do an OA-esque book since before 1980. UA itself was largely made up of material that had seen previous publication in Dragon as official material for use in D&D games from Gary's column, earmarked for later compilation, edited and formatted for publication. As I said, I'd recalled reading it. I might well have had the order wrong, but UA was definitely first out of the blocks. In fact, all three were weak sisters to the MM, PHB and DMG, and were simply cranked out for quick cash. Re: "And thus began the road which led to PR classes and half-celestials/half dragons ad nauseum" -- bull. What would you call the 1e Bard but a Prestige Class? A bard wasn't the overpowered monstrosity that 3.X PRcs are. 1st ed Player classes were kept in check, as evidence the NPC classes that you've just admitted you'd have nagged your DM about wanting to play. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 20] Author : Warhead Date : 05-11-04 12:43 PM Originally posted by Gandalf_Istari Not only were there monks in the 1st ed. PHB, but the Japanese and Chinese pantheons were included in Deities and Demigods, which was printed before OA and may well have generated some interest in having an "eastern" based set of rules and campaign setting. IIRC there were asian dragons and other monsters in the 1st ed. Monster Manuals and the Fiend Folio, and I believe those were published before OA was as well. Yep - you're absolutely right on both counts. Though there were many other pantheons in "Deities and Demigods" which presumably didn't get that much of a reaction, the oriental dragons in FF may well have contributed. Weren't there some Norse dragons kicking about in 1e somewhere? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 21] Author : James McMurray Date : 05-11-04 12:51 PM Re: "And thus began the road which led to PR classes and half-celestials/half dragons ad nauseum" -- bull. What would you call the 1e Bard but a Prestige Class? You can go back farther than 1e. D&D (Master's set IIRC) had Paladins, Avengers, and a few other classes that you had to earn at a later level. A bard wasn't the overpowered monstrosity that 3.X PRcs are. Your inexperience with 3.5 is showing. While it is true that there are some overpowered PrCs in 3.x, it is also true that there are many overpowered things in OD&D, 1e, and 2e. Because of the existence of power gamers and munchkins, it is good business practice to have something over-powered in every single book, as it expands the market for that book. 1st ed Player classes were kept in check, as evidence the NPC classes that you've just admitted you'd have nagged your DM about wanting to play. Which truly stunk from a player's perspective IMO. That's one of the things I love about 3.x: the rules apply equally to everyone, Pc and NPC alike. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 22] Author : GreyLord Date : 05-11-04 02:12 PM Actually, I never thougth it stunk, which players are you talking about? The majority of 1e players that I've known (and known quite a few) have tried 3e, tossed it aside, and gone back to 1e. The majority of 3e players started with 3e, OR started with some version of 2e. Any experience they have with 1e is through looking at the books later after they've tried 3e a while, or sometimes looking at early 2e books after being with 3e a while, hence some of their slants on the older editions. Either that or they've started on one of my campaigns that are for my 1e players instead of 3e players. However I have to agree, the 3.0 bard wasn't all that balanced...in fact almost everyone agreed it was underpowered. 3.5 is better in terms of power for the bard...however, as long as I drop the requisite of perform (since that means they have to be rather high level to get the class) OR make perform a class skill for ANY class (which I've houseruled into the current 3e campaign), Prestige Bards have actually restored the power of the bard to close to 2e levels (the Prestige Bard found in the 3.5 UA that is). But overall, the Bard has been underpowered in 3e far more than in any other edition yet. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 23] Author : heretic888 Date : 05-11-04 03:07 PM Thread Title : ahem You don't think things like Mutant Ninja Turtles and other ideas came from nowhere did you!? Actually, they were originally a comedic parody of Frank Miller's work with "Daredevil" and "Ronin". *coughs* Moving on... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 24] Author : GreyLord Date : 05-11-04 07:01 PM Thread Title : Re: ahem Originally posted by heretic888 Actually, they were originally a comedic parody of Frank Miller's work with "Daredevil" and "Ronin". *coughs* Moving on... Okay, more aptly then, the 'popularity' of the TMNT in the general populace. Don't know about you, but most of the Kids I saw that were big into it were big into it for other reasons than that. I think a lot of kids have that thing thinking Ninja's are cool, and even many adults. And then you have that entire fascination with the Oriental cultures. Personally, I have to admit, though not as much as many, I do like to study and learn about the Orient. I was also one that enjoyed OA though, I thought playing a Bushi or Kensai was quite fun. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 25] Author : Demon Lightfoot Date : 05-11-04 07:21 PM Thread Title : Re: ahem Originally posted by heretic888 Actually, they were originally a comedic parody of Frank Miller's work with "Daredevil" and "Ronin". *coughs* Moving on... Actually they were a parody of all of the trendy elements in comics at the time; teenagers, ninja, and mutants. They threw in "turtles" just for the hell of it. [Edited to take out superfluous sig. :D] -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 26] Author : Regularguy Date : 05-11-04 08:08 PM Originally posted by Demon Lightfoot Yup, some people wanted "Oriental" stuff; if y'all own the Best Of The Dragon compilations or the Dragon Magazine CD, you'll find a goodly number of takes on Samurai, Ninja and Shaolin monks, among other Asian-influenced treats, well before the advent of OA. Yeah, the Piao Shih was pretty frickin' cool. Back to the topic at hand . . . the 1E Legends & Lore angle has been mentioned, but I figure it's worth adding that there's only so much one can do with "Ancient Sumeria," say. But the Orient -- man, there's a *lot* of rich and exotic and fun adventure stuff going on in that setting that the kids all just love: armored samurai and sneaky ninja and connected yakuza and all *kinds* of martial artistry (mystical and otherwise) and questions of honor and-- -- oh, yeah, and the frickin' cool Piao Shih. ;-) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 27] Author : heretic888 Date : 05-12-04 10:10 AM Thread Title : hee Okay, more aptly then, the 'popularity' of the TMNT in the general populace. Don't know about you, but most of the Kids I saw that were big into it were big into it for other reasons than that. *shrugs* Personally, I think the widespread popularity of the TMNT during the late '80's to early '90's had very little to do with the "ninja" label. Still, there was no denying the sheer force of the Ninjamania of the '80's.... I think a lot of kids have that thing thinking Ninja's are cool, and even many adults. Oh, I think "ninja" are cool, too (and I consider myself an adult). Then again, my reasons are different than most people's. :D Actually they were a parody of all of the trendy elements in comics at the time; teenagers, ninja, and mutants. Yes, but with two qualifiers: 1) originally, and 2) in general. Meaning, the TMNT were originally created by Eastman and Laird as a comedic one-shot, with no intention of becoming an ongoing series. It sold so well initially, however, that they decided to make it a serious, ongoing comic series (which eventually spawned many non-serious mediums, such as the animated series). Also, the TMNT were parodies of those generic elements in general. For actual specific points, however, they mimicked Frank Miller's stuff all the way ('Splinter' comes from the character Stick, the 'Foot' are from the Hand, and the young boy that knocked the blind man out of the way of the truck with the preverbial 'ooze' was Matt Murdock himself). Hell, even the original cover for TMNT #1 was a direct parody of the cover of Ronin #1. Another element they poked at was the Orwellian rigidity of the Comics Code Authority of the time, as the original TMNT series was unabashadely violent and bloody (the Turtles killed about 20 villians in the very first issue, including Shredder). They threw in "turtles" just for the hell of it. Actually, they threw in "turtles" because a TV-inspired napkin doodle. You can find the original doodle at www.ninjaturtles.com. Laterz. :smirk: -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 28] Author : Demon Lightfoot Date : 05-12-04 11:17 AM Thread Title : Re: hee Originally posted by heretic888 Yes, but with two qualifiers: 1) originally, and 2) in general. Meaning, the TMNT were originally created by Eastman and Laird as a comedic one-shot, with no intention of becoming an ongoing series. It sold so well initially, however, that they decided to make it a serious, ongoing comic series (which eventually spawned many non-serious mediums, such as the animated series). Uh, well, yeah. I've read them. The original B&W comics, that is, before they became famous. The thing that made the comedy better was that they played it completely straight in that first issue. The overtly (allegedly) funny treatments missed that entirely. Also, the TMNT were parodies of those generic elements in general. For actual specific points, however, they mimicked Frank Miller's stuff all the way ('Splinter' comes from the character Stick, the 'Foot' are from the Hand, and the young boy that knocked the blind man out of the way of the truck with the preverbial 'ooze' was Matt Murdock himself). Hell, even the original cover for TMNT #1 was a direct parody of the cover of Ronin #1. Granted. If you wanted to, you could even envision an AU where the TMNT and DD co-existed, which I always thought was cool (as averse as I am to clumsy hamfisted AU stories). Actually, they threw in "turtles" because a TV-inspired napkin doodle. You can find the original doodle at www.ninjaturtles.com. Huh. I could have sworn I read it differently in the preface to one of my copies of the comics (or an interview) back in tha day (pre-Intarweb). Maybe I'll paw through my collection sometime to find it (if it exists). Thanks for the link, BTW; diggin' it. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 29] Author : heretic888 Date : 05-12-04 12:35 PM Thread Title : hee Like, totally. Dude. :cool: -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Downloaded from Wizards Community (http://forums.gleemax.com) at 05-10-08 08:20 AM.