* * * Wizards Community Thread * * * -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Thread : ? Started at 05-13-04 06:37 PM by skathros Visit at http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=239122 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 1] Author : skathros Date : 05-13-04 06:37 PM Thread Title : ? LOCKED http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=239040 LOCKED http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=228925 MOVED & DISMISSED http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=239063 explanation: because the OOP people WANT lock happy mods. That's why. If the WotC employees wanted nothing but 3e posts, you wouldn't have this forum at all. As for the thread being locked, the OOP forum can't have it both ways. If you don't want "3e is better than OOP!" threads, you can't have "OOP is better than 3e!" threads either. No, it's called Wife Demanding we Go To Dinner Now and me knowing this sort of thing is going on. So, I can either make a quick post about it, or let it explode and have accusations of "Mods don't care about OOP.". This is WotC's haven for OOP D&D gamers??? They might do better remembering that when the got D&D, they also inherited the old school gamers who followed the game way befor WotC took over for TSR! Consider me disgusted!!! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 2] Author : Falstaff the Fighter Date : 05-13-04 06:45 PM As for the thread being locked, the OOP forum can't have it both ways. If you don't want "3e is better than OOP!" threads, you can't have "OOP is better than 3e!" threads either. What kind of ****tard logic is this? You can have those sorts of posts on the 3e boards (3e is the best edition.), so why can't you have the opposite here? Besides, if a forum is made for the promotion of something, then having a thread proclaiming whatever that something is, it is the best, while not allowing posts that say something else is the best is 100% logical. This has to be one of the poorest moderated messageboards I have ever been too. The preferential treat 3e fans get is sickening. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 3] Author : skathros Date : 05-13-04 07:04 PM thanks, Falstaff...it's nice to know i'm not the only one who thinks so! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 4] Author : blackprinceofmuncie Date : 05-13-04 07:20 PM And yet this obvious troll thread: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=190594&perpage=30&pagenumber=4 is still going strong. :rolleyes: Yeah. It's obviously OK to poke fun at OOP games and OOP gamers on the OOP boards, but we can't say anything critical about 3e+ or the thread gets locked. That makes SOOOO much sense. :uh-huh: -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 5] Author : Falstaff the Fighter Date : 05-13-04 07:41 PM Black Prince is pointing out something I myself tried to edit into my post (Servers were fouling up atr the time though.). The existence of that thread while others are shut down is proof positive that something is rotten in Denamrk here. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 6] Author : Stonebeard Date : 05-13-04 07:56 PM I agree that the logic in that statement, by I don't know who and I'm reluctant to remark on something someone else quoted, is retarded. But on the other hand show me a thread that says one version of D&D is better than another, that achieves anything the least bit constructive. It may very well be that these things are not equally enforced, and if so they need to be. Originally posted by Falstaff the Fighter As for the thread being locked, the OOP forum can't have it both ways. If you don't want "3e is better than OOP!" threads, you can't have "OOP is better than 3e!" threads either. What kind of ****tard logic is this? You can have those sorts of posts on the 3e boards (3e is the best edition.), so why can't you have the opposite here? Besides, if a forum is made for the promotion of something, then having a thread proclaiming whatever that something is, it is the best, while not allowing posts that say something else is the best is 100% logical. This has to be one of the poorest moderated messageboards I have ever been too. The preferential treat 3e fans get is sickening. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 7] Author : Wyrmbane Date : 05-13-04 08:56 PM I think it's rather obvious that WotC would prefer we all just faded away. Make it easier to market their computer game on paper.. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 8] Author : WizO_Paradox Date : 05-13-04 09:27 PM There are some folks (Myself included) who like all editions of D&D. Including older editions. If you want free reign to bash 3e, what do you expect to happen when someone who does play all editions sees that? They'll get to flaming. And preferentail treatment? Have you even looked at our avatar list? OOP avatars vastly outnumber 3e avatars. Done by yours truly. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 9] Author : Gandalf_Istari Date : 05-13-04 09:27 PM Originally posted by blackprinceofmuncie And yet this obvious troll thread: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=190594&perpage=30&pagenumber=4 is still going strong. :rolleyes: Yeah. It's obviously OK to poke fun at OOP games and OOP gamers on the OOP boards, but we can't say anything critical about 3e+ or the thread gets locked. That makes SOOOO much sense. :uh-huh: Exactly. Its even worse when mods feel free to post their own opinions about the different editions, but shut the thread down when people start making criticisms of those opinions, as happened in this thread: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=237607 Read through that thread, there weren't alot of blatant insults or flaming. People were posting reasons, as per the original poster's request, as to why they did or did not think that 3rd ed. retains the "feel" of old school D&D. A flame war is when threads degenerates into out-right name calling and have no content to the posts beyond, "Your points are stupid!" When people offer real criticisms and debate a topic, thats called an intellectual exchange of ideas, and can be good for the game, as it can help people on both sides see the other side's point of view and reasoning. It may not change minds that are made up ahead of time, but it can help people at least agree to disagree and understand each other's reasons and opinions. Its one thing to put a halt to name calling and pointless threads, its another thing entirely to put a stop to legitimate debate. REAL moderation of a board would be to warn people who are actually flaming and throwing insults around, and editing posts or even banning people who can't try and stay somewhat civil. Locking entire threads should be the last resort. Making a blanket lock of threads simply because there is some disagreement and debate going on within those threads, especially when the moderator himself felt free to offer his own opinion, is hypocricy at its best. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 10] Author : WizO_Paradox Date : 05-13-04 09:35 PM :uh-huh: People complained about the comparisons. That's why the thread was closed. As requested. Some folks don't want 3e people on the board at all. We once had a lockdown on all 3e discussions. Someone commented that the OOP boards were nicer then. Is that what it takes to have a friendly, welcoming board? So... What DO you want me to do? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 11] Author : Gandalf_Istari Date : 05-13-04 09:44 PM Originally posted by WizO_Paradox :uh-huh: People complained about the comparisons. That's why the thread was closed. As requested. Some folks don't want 3e people on the board at all. We once had a lockdown on all 3e discussions. Someone commented that the OOP boards were nicer then. Is that what it takes to have a friendly, welcoming board? So... What DO you want me to do? I already stated what should be done. Actually moderate threads based on the content of the threads rather than just making blanket lock downs. I have no problem personally with people who explain why they think 3rd ed. might be better than other editions, as long as they are offering real reasons and not just saying that its better with no substance to back their statements up. Making rules comparisons can help the game grow both ways, because it can let people who play 3rd ed. take neat stuff they like from older editions, and let people who play OOP learn stuff about the new editions and maybe use some of that. Furthermore, debate about game mechanics is legitimate. For goodness sake, that's what Dragon magazine has been about for decades, talking about different rules and alternatives systems. Let there be debate, just stop the real flamers. And don't feel free to post your own opinions in a thread comparing 3rd ed. to older editions, and then lock the thread because, *gasp*, people dared to challenge your assertions or the assertions of other 3rd ed. faithful. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 12] Author : WizO_Paradox Date : 05-13-04 09:48 PM I already stated what should be done. Actually moderate threads based on the content of the threads rather than just making blanket lock downs. Tried that. Lookie what happened: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=239063 And don't feel free to post your own opinions in a thread comparing 3rd ed. to older editions, and then lock the thread because, *gasp*, people dared to challenge your assertions or the assertions of other 3rd ed. faithful. I am allowed to have my own opinions, you know. And the thread wasn't locked because of a disagreement. It was part of that blanket lock you mentioned. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 13] Author : Gandalf_Istari Date : 05-13-04 10:21 PM Originally posted by WizO_Paradox Tried that. Lookie what happened: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=239063 You call simply locking threads real moderation? And then you act like people are wrong because they subsequently complain about your failure to do some real moderating rather than just completely closing threads? Puh-leaze. I am allowed to have my own opinions, you know. And the thread wasn't locked because of a disagreement. It was part of that blanket lock you mentioned. So its ok for you to post your opinions in threads that are clearly making comparisons between editions, as per the original posters request (since he said he was coming back to the game and didn't know anything about 3rd ed.), but when other opinions are expressed you lock the thread, and your locking of that thread gets explained away by saying its all a part of a blanket lock and that makes it Okie dokie? The whole point that I was making was that total lock down of all threads is not needed in the first place. People can and should be able to disagree, state reasons and opinions, etc. That's called debate. Sometimes it might get heated, but as long as blatant insults and foolish trolling isn't going on, then debate shouldn't be a problem. You say on one hand that your entitled to your opinion, then you say that no one really is because we can't allow any free exchance or debate or comparison of the rulesets of different editions. You say that "the thread wasn't locked because of a disagreement", then why was it locked? You put it pretty clearly in those threads you were closing them because they were flame wars. That would seem to point to the fact that those threads were closed becaue there was disagreement going on in them, eh? Here's where you state why you are closing all those threads: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=237607&perpage=30&pagenumber=3 http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=239040 http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=239063 http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=233248&perpage=30&pagenumber=4 http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=228925 In everyone of those posts you say you are closing them because they are "flame wars". That sort of points in the direction that there were disagreements going on in those threads, eh? But hey! You're entitled to offer up your opinions about the editions, but the rest of us aren't, simply because there was some debate and back and forth going on.... Good going! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 14] Author : WizO_Paradox Date : 05-13-04 10:47 PM (Now I'll be there will be complaints the board's "Over managaged" and "heavy handed.") Can I call it or what? :D If I just post "guys, knock it off", I'll be accused once again of being a corporate shrill, and letting OOP bashing continue because obviously I'm so against OOP! So, what are you guys preparted to do when that happens? And again we entered in edition wars and no mod would stop it... Why ? Because the moderation on this board is totally absent and stoooopidly managed. We are in the OOP ground and the mod coming in is against us, old schoolers. More, it's a minority of 3e players in the debate and they still have the highest support. They'll never learn. It's a no return. I want to say to those old ed fans that your arguments and texts were pure gold. Anyone not already lobotimized and subdued to Wotc would accept your words as fully reasonnable. Congrats ! A complaint about there not being moderation. What do I do? (Aside from investigating it...) I post MY thoughts on the various editions. Does the tone change? Nope. Indeed, NOW further accusations are flung my way. "Oh, you just post, someone disagrees and you close the thread!" Sigh. Again, part of the blanket edition comparison lockdown until we can have cooler heads think this all through. Net yeild: It seems some didn't see a WizO bothered to post and/or just want to pick a fight. The one thing that did work in the past was not allowing 3e discussions on the OOP board. [quote]You say that "the thread wasn't locked because of a disagreement", then why was it locked? Ah, the thread wasn't locked because people disagreed with me. (Sorry for the confusion!) The threads were locked because either people in the thread were being hostile, people were complaining about it, or some folks complained just to troll the boards and raise my ire. (Won't work guys.) No matter how many times I've said I'm an OOP fan, that statement seems to get ignored. *Shrug* So, any ideas how to stop all the trolls? (From all sides.) BTW- When people have calm and rational discussions with the WizOs, thinks work out better and more smoothly. I HAVE been known to sometimes reverse a decision. Closed threads have been opened before. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 15] Author : Gandalf_Istari Date : 05-13-04 11:01 PM Ok I can respect where you're coming from now, at least in part. Just to be clear, I wasn't trying to say or accuse that you were closing the threads JUST because you may or may not have disagreed, but rather because there were posters disagreeing with you AND each other about the topic at hand. In my view, disagreement does not automatically = a flame war. I realize that you making posts like "Hey stop flaming!" probably would not make people stop flaming, if that is going on. However, perhaps several things could be done. First, post a sticky that says clearly that NO personal insults, foul language, etc, is allowed. Then people are responsible for what they say, because that part is clearly stated. Then add in there that its perfectly ok to talk (emphasis on talk :D ) about and compare the rulesets, as long as there are no open insults or flames. People can disagree about whether a certain rule, or even an entire system, is flawed, and that does not mean its a flame war. Insults and abusive language is what makes a flame war, not disagreement between posters. Make it clear that indviduals will be warned and then banned if they do not cease using abusive and insulting language. Then, enforce that policy. It may make your job tougher for the short term, but over time trolls get weeded out and banned and people who can have a real debate are allowed to do so. BTW, I appreciate you sticking with this thread as long as you have so far, and asking for constructive criticism. Alot of mods on boards don't do that, so my respect for you has jumped a notch or three. :) Apologies if I came across too caustically. I just want to be able to debate things and not see lock downs on any thread where there might be a bit of heated debate. Thanks for be willing to hear me out. **edited for typos -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 16] Author : Tenzhi Date : 05-13-04 11:27 PM You can please some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can't please ANYONE on the internet. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 17] Author : Halaster-Blackcloak Date : 05-13-04 11:36 PM What people need to realize is that the WOTC forums exist for no other reason than to promote their new stuff. It's nothing more than a glorified commercial, criticism is frowned on if not outright stifled, and the WizOs are here to stifle that dissent. Sorry Paradox, you can claim that the WizOs are not biased until you turn blue in the face and pass out from the effort...a great many of us simply refuse to believe it because "the proof is in the putting". And what you've been putting out are biased rulings. Not just you, but ALL the WizOs. This situation has been in effect since the very earliest edition wars way back when 3E first came out. There's no avoiding it, no denying it. Back when 3E first came out, 3E trolls invaded this OOP board, they PUBLICLY ADMITTED that there were coming here to troll, and ABSOLUTELY NOTHING was done to stop their BS. While WOTC conveniently erased all those posts, I still have some of them saved as proof. Instead of doing the sane thing, ie putting a stop to 3E trolls coming to the OOP board and starting fights, the WizOs first did nothing but allow the flames to burn for weeks at a time. It was only after the flames turned the entire board into a battleground of nastiness that they stepped in. And what did they do? They shut down threads, banned OOP gamers, and DID NOTHING WHATSOEVER to the 3E trolls who PUBLICLY ADMITTED that they were coming to the OOP boards for no reason other than to fight. A lot of OOP gamers hate 3E, they hate what was done to the game they love, they hate how WOTC handles things, they hate the new corporate mentality, etc. So the OOP board, being a forum dedicated to those who like OOP games, should be a safe zone to criticize 3E, complain about 3E, etc, without 3E people coming in here to fight about it. WOTC doesn't need 3E trolls to carry on a Crusade against criticism of 3E, but many 3E gamers have a fanatical zeal that compels them to do so. And the OOP board is no place for the constant stupid posts praising 3E and gushing over how wonderful it is. That sort of garbage belongs on the 3E boards, not here. There are literally DOZENS of 3E boards here at WOTC alone, where people can sing the praises of 3E. It's grossly out of place to do so in the OOP forum, yet it is allowed constantly. I'll remind you that one of the biggest wars ever to hit this board happened back when 3E came out, when I posted a message titled "What ruined 3E for me". Note the disclaimer "for me". But that did not stop a bunch of fanatical 3E trolls from coming in here and fighting me tooth and nail about it, until the thread was locked weeks or months later. That post was purposely posted in the OOP section so as not to upset the 3E gamers. It was the only logical place to post it. And yet the fanatics came in here, admitted publicly that they would react rudely to every criticism of 3e, and caused uncountable numbers of flame wars. In virtually every case, the WizOs sided with the 3E trolls, or at the very least did not punish them for trolling. I know this is a fact because the same trolls posted repeated attacks month after month, day after day, and publicly admitted to doing so. I also personally reported those posts to various WizOs and posted public replies verifying them as trolls. Still nothing was ever done. The situation still has not changed, nor will it ever. It's a very simple logic that people need to understand. WOTC is only interested in making this place a big commercial for its products, and does not appreciate dissenting opinion. Look at the situation with the WOTC D&D novels, right there is all the proof you need. And because this is how things are, the WizOs are expected to keep the status quo, ie lots of pleasant talk about 3E, and let's not criticize stuff because that might "offend" someone. So my advice to OOP gamers who are tired of all the crap here? Go to one of the other OOP boards out there. There's a few that are very OOP-positive and which do not tolerate all this stupid trolling by 3E fanatics. Dragonsfoot has an OD&D, a 1E, and a 2E board, and they are pretty much on topic and there's not the glut of 3E crap that you see here. Mortality has an OOP section and there is no talk about 3e there, nor is there any trolling. I know, because I personally moderate the OOP forum there, and there is no way in hell I'm going to tolerate constant 3E threads or people bashing OOP gamers. But that gives you at least 2 different boards with dedicated OOP talk free of all the 3E garbage that constantly comes down the shoot here. So do what a lot of other OOP gamers have done...just abandon this board and go to others. There's no reason you have to tolerate this sort of abuse just because WOTC owns the rights to the name of "D&D". -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 18] Author : Halaster-Blackcloak Date : 05-13-04 11:50 PM Gandalf_Istari wrote: Then add in there that its perfectly ok to talk (emphasis on talk ) about and compare the rulesets, as long as there are no open insults or flames. Sorry to say this, but you're being blissfully clueless if you think people are going to talk nicely about edition comparisons. There is simply too much heated emotion on both sides, and too much anger being generated by the heavy bias here at WOTC. Also, you're dead wrong if you think it's ok to debate editions here on the OOP board. Why not debate them on one of the hundred or so 3E boards WOTC provides? The OOP board is (in theory, if not practice) a forum dedicated to discussing OOP editions, not a forum for debating or comparing them to the modern version. If people want that sort of discussion, then the only sane thing to do is to start an Edition Comparison forum and confine debate between or criticism of any edition to that particular forum. Otherwise, the problem will never go away. I'll use myself as an example, because a lot of people I know share my views. I consider 3E to be an abomination, I consider it a totally unrelated entity to AD&D, I consider it a video game in paper form. I despise the rules sets, I loathe the mentality and the approach WOTC takes, from marketing to game design to forum policy. When I go to an OOP board, I go there to discuss OOP games. I am not interested in hearing how something in 3E relates to something in 2E or 1E because I couldn't care less about 3E. I don't play it, I never will play it. I also don't come to OOP boards to hear people posting crap about how "great" 3E is, and how I should "try it for awhile". I don't come to the OOP forum to hear 3E gamers talk about how they believe their beloved edition is the greatest things since sliced bread and flushable indoor toilets. That sort of nonsense has no place on the OOP board, and yet threads like that pop up every day. If there are people who want to compare rules and gush about how much they love 3E compared to 2E, or whatever, if they want to be able to debate the merits of one edition over another, then what they need to do is petition the WizOs to create an Edition Comparison forum. There you go, problem solved. But don't expect that sane solution to happen any time soon. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 19] Author : skathros Date : 05-13-04 11:51 PM Originally posted by WizO_Paradox And the thread wasn't locked because of a disagreement. It was part of that blanket lock you mentioned. a blanket lock? Why not just lock a thread when it has turned into a flame war as opposed to locking them because, maybe, who knows, you think it might? It makes no sense...none whatsoever! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 20] Author : Gandalf_Istari Date : 05-14-04 12:11 AM Well I can understand if there is angst from past encounters with moderators and all that. However, Paradox did ask for suggestions on what could be done maybe to allow free discussion while at the same time keeping the board free of flame fests and silliness. Maybe in the past people made suggestions and they were ignored, /shrug. But, since he did ask for suggestions, and said he *might* be willing to reverse some of the thread locks, perhaps we could oblige him and offer some constructive criticism to try and get this board to be a better one. If he ignores suggestions that are put forth, then by all means lets move on to somewhere else where open debate is welcome. I mean really, WotC would be throwing a gold mine away here by not hearing out long-standing customers and gamers (many on this board seem to have been playing 10-2o years) who have opinions and views on the different editions and their strengths and weaknesses. I know that on many video game boards, developers closely read threads to glean ideas on how to make better games and see what people want. Perhaps this could happen here as well, if we can work on getting them to pay attention. Its never too late to get things changed. I understand that there are coporate interests, profit margins, and all that at stake, but seriouly WotC would be foolish not to take advantage of free feedback that could allow them to produce a better product that will sell better in the future. Perhaps they'll ignore any and all suggestetions from the OOP board, whether its about moderation or the game itself. But Paradox at least offered to entertain ways to make the board better, so lets offer some constructive comments and save the flames for later if our comments are completely ignored.... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 21] Author : Halaster-Blackcloak Date : 05-14-04 12:20 AM As I've said, the proof is in the putting. When WOTC puts up an Edition Debate board and channels all the off topic 3E crap out of the OOP section, then I'll consider it fair. Until then, nothing has changed, and all these emtpy promises are just that...empty promises. I've heard it all before, for almost 4 years now, and nothing has changed. The OOP board is still flooded routinely and almost daily with off topic 3E stuff that has no place here. Actions, not words, are what count. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 22] Author : Tenzhi Date : 05-14-04 12:57 AM Originally posted by Halaster-Blackcloak The OOP board is (in theory, if not practice) a forum dedicated to discussing OOP editions, not a forum for debating or comparing them to the modern version. Comparing them to the modern version is, in fact, discussing them. And as long as fans of each edition are capable of recognizing and accepting potential flaws of their respective editions rather than becoming blindly defensive at the mere suggestion of said flaws (or as long as self-same fans aren't pointing out those flaws in an blatantly aggressive manner), such discussion can be quite reasonably had. And in my opinion those sorts of discussions have a place both here and in the D&D General boards. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 23] Author : Serena DarkMyst Date : 05-14-04 01:07 AM There are two sides to this coin....And I am going to be short and sweet about this. I absolutely refuse to join into this pointless arguement. If this board is dedicated to OOP, then why would one of the faithful OOP players post a thread entitled "What ruined 3E for me" Isnt that a little ridiculous? Especially if this board is reserved for talk about OOP D&D..... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 24] Author : Halaster-Blackcloak Date : 05-14-04 01:12 AM And as long as fans of each edition are capable of recognizing and accepting potential flaws of their respective editions rather than becoming blindly defensive at the mere suggestion of said flaws (or as long as self-same fans aren't pointing out those flaws in an blatantly aggressive manner), such discussion can be quite reasonably had. History and experience shows us that usually does not happen. Yeah, in a perfect world maybe, but this isn't a perfect world. Hence, the best idea is to channel the talk about comparisons and debate between editions to its own forum, where people who want to discuss that can do so without drowning out talk of the on-topic OOP stuff. It's very simple logic. The OOP board should be for discussing OOP games. If you want to discuss 3E, you go to the 3E boards. If you want to discuss similarities between, debate the merits of, or contrast modern to OOP editions, there should be a forum for that specific reason. Otherwise, you're always going to be ******* off some people. Many OOP gamers don't appreciate all the 3E content here in the OOP baords. Finally, consider what would happen if someone started threads in various 3E forums here praising 2E or 1E, and debating which is better. We've already seen what happens. Why should it be allowed here? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 25] Author : Halaster-Blackcloak Date : 05-14-04 01:16 AM Serena Darkmyst wrote: If this board is dedicated to OOP, then why would one of the faithful OOP players post a thread entitled "What ruined 3E for me" Isnt that a little ridiculous? No, not at all. Think about it. First of all, that post happened way back when 3E first came out. Second, it was only natural for OOP gamers who refused to switch over to discuss why they decided to stick with OOP editions at that time. Third, which forum made the most sense to post it in...a 3E forum where you're going to "offend" most of the people there, or in an OOP forum where theoretically most people would tend to agree with you? And as I said, that was back then when it was a subject that needed to be discussed. Now there's no reason for ANY 3E posts in an OOP forum. It's been 4 years, people have made up their minds and we've heard all the arguments on both sides. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 26] Author : Gandalf_Istari Date : 05-14-04 01:26 AM Originally posted by Halaster-Blackcloak And as I said, that was back then when it was a subject that needed to be discussed. Now there's no reason for ANY 3E posts in an OOP forum. It's been 4 years, people have made up their minds and we've heard all the arguments on both sides. Maybe you have been here for 4 years, but not everyone else has. In fact one of the threads that was locked was an old gamer coming back who wanted to hear from OOP'ers what their thoughts were on 3rd ed. so he could decide whether to stick with OOP or buy new materials. There are people returning to the game after a long absence, there are new people who want to know what the old editions are all about, and there might even be people who may not like 3rd ed. as a whole but want to use some of it. Why these things can't be discussed here, with some proper moderation, is beyond me. I can see your logic about how a forum for rules debates could be a good thing, but there shouldn't be any reason people can't post cross topics that are talking about all of the editions here, especially if they are seeking advice from OOP players or looking to incorporate rules from each edition. /shrug -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 27] Author : Gandalf_Istari Date : 05-14-04 01:35 AM Originally posted by Serena DarkMyst I absolutely refuse to join into this pointless arguement. First off, you have already joined "this pointless argument." Does that mean what you are adding to it is pointless as well? Now don't take that the wrong way, I'm just pointing out that perhaps there's actually something at issue here. C'mon, at least try to understand the merits of what people are saying before totally dismissing the fact that other people might want to see some changes on the board, or want more open debate and better moderation. Talking about rules of games is part of what gamers do , its not just some waste of time nor is it pointless. There are bad rules in all of the editions, and people want to talk about and share their reasons which they think are good and which they hate. In order for it to be constructive in any way, we need clear moderation that removes people who continually flame and insult, so others who want to legitimately talk and debate about the game, the whole game, from Basic to Edition 1000, can do so. That's not pointless. That's gaming. Maybe you don't think talking about different rules editions is fruitful, but that doesn't mean no one else does. Furthermore, those who don't want to read thread on certain things, like debates about rules for instance, don't need to read or post to them, do they? Like this thread for example. :) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 28] Author : Tenzhi Date : 05-14-04 01:52 AM Originally posted by Halaster-Blackcloak Hence, the best idea is to channel the talk about comparisons and debate between editions to its own forum, where people who want to discuss that can do so without drowning out talk of the on-topic OOP stuff. Given the average traffic this forum receives, there's plenty of room for comparison-discussions (which, again, involve OOP stuff and are therefore still on-topic) with absolutely no danger of "drowning-out" other discussions. The OOP board should be for discussing OOP games. If you want to discuss 3E, you go to the 3E boards. If you want to discuss similarities between, debate the merits of, or contrast modern to OOP editions, there should be a forum for that specific reason. It is, you do, and theoretically there are - the OOP board and D&D General. Otherwise, you're always going to be ******* off some people. Many OOP gamers don't appreciate all the 3E content here in the OOP baords. You're ALWAYS going to be ticking someone off. Finally, consider what would happen if someone started threads in various 3E forums here praising 2E or 1E, and debating which is better. As long as they were in the appropriate section and the posters involved remained mature about the subject matter it should be fine. If all discussions with a potential for immaturity and degradation into flames were disallowed then no discussions would be allowed at all. We've already seen what happens. Why should it be allowed here? Why shouldn't it be allowed here? As long as it's discussing OOP stuff (in whole, or in part) it's perfectly on-topic. Is the sole reason it shouldn't be discussed here because a few OOP gamers become nonsensically outraged by the mere mention of 3rd Edition? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 29] Author : Halaster-Blackcloak Date : 05-14-04 02:33 AM Gandalf_Istari wrote: There are people returning to the game after a long absence, there are new people who want to know what the old editions are all about, And that right there may be the strongest argument for the WizOs to step in and turn off all the excessive 3E gushing and edition wars erupting here...many if not the majority of the most knowledgeable OOP gamers have migrated to other forums due to disgust over the WOTC OOP forums. I routinely see questions asked here that go unanswered or which receive no good, knowledgeable replies, because most of the knowledgeable OOP gamers don't come here anymore. There's your reason. Why these things can't be discussed here, with some proper moderation, is beyond me. No one is saying it can't be discussed. What I'm saying is that there are too many 3E oriented posts here. And too many edition debates here. And poor moderation here. I can see your logic about how a forum for rules debates could be a good thing, but there shouldn't be any reason people can't post cross topics that are talking about all of the editions here, especially if they are seeking advice from OOP players or looking to incorporate rules from each edition. There are plenty of reasons, if you use your head. First of all, it always has been and always will be a touchy subject. People are emotional, fights will break out. Edition preference ranks right up there with religion and politics as far as flammability. It's just a fact, so deal with it instead of wishing it otherwise. Tenzhi wrote: Given the average traffic this forum receives, there's plenty of room for comparison-discussions (which, again, involve OOP stuff and are therefore still on-topic) with absolutely no danger of "drowning-out" other discussions. Ah, I see. There's not enough traffic just talking about OOP stuff, so let's discuss 3E too? :rolleyes: Sigh. As long as they were in the appropriate section and the posters involved remained mature about the subject matter it should be fine. Two problems. First, Perfect World Syndrome. In a perfect world, we would all get along, there would be no edition wars, and we'd all sit around singing Kumbayah when tempers flared. That's fantasy land. Second, the OOP forum exists to discuss OOP material, period. It's not designed as a forum to compare editions. If people want to continually debate which edition is better or compare editions, then they should have an Edition Comparison board. Most OOP games don't want to hear drivel about 3E, they want to talk about OOP games. Why shouldn't it be allowed here? Counter-question: Why shouldn't it be allowed on the 3E boards? You know damn well that when something unpleasant breaks out in an edition comparison thread, if it takes place here in OOP, it's allowed to fester. However, if it's posted in a 3E section it's either moved here into the OOP forum, which is an inappropriate place for it, or else it's shut down immediately. Get this and get it good... The OOP forum is not the WOTC general toilet for flushing all the "mixed" edition threads. As long as it's discussing OOP stuff (in whole, or in part) it's perfectly on-topic. Using that warped logic, posts should be made to the 3E boards talking about OOP editions simply because they're in part on-topic. I mean, if the OOP post mentions fighters, spells, wizards, skills, saving throws, etc, then it's as on topic in the 3E section as the OOP section, right? And again I will emphasize the fact that edition fights are not allowed on the 3E boards. Perfect example...if I posted to the 3E general board asking people what 1E feels like, it would be moved here to the OOP board. And yet someone posted a thread here asking about the "feel" of 3E. Who in their right mind posts a question about a new edition in an OOP forum? That makes no sense at all. That thread should have been moved to the 3E general board. Who would know better what 3E feels like...players who have not switched to 3E and hence are OOP gamers, or 3E players who actually play the game? Is that making sense now? :rolleyes: Is the sole reason it shouldn't be discussed here because a few OOP gamers become nonsensically outraged by the mere mention of 3rd Edition? No, the sole reason is because discussion of IN PRINT games does not belong in a forum devoted to OUT OF PRINT games, especially when the in-print games have 50 times as many forums devoted to them. It's just that simple, it's not rocket science. Even posts asking about comparisons and conversions make little sense to ask in the OOP forum. Why? Because most OOP gamers who are regulars here do not play 3E, so they cannot give you advice on playing 3E. In contrast, most 3E gamers were already gamers and hence were familiar with the earlier editions. As such, the PROPER place to discuss comparisons or conversions is in the 3E forum. Also, by allowing 3E related threads in the OOP section, you dilute the already relatively smaller number of posts which are on topic. There's plenty of space for 3E posts in 3E forums, that's where they should stay. Finally, and this is the nail on the coffin of the argument, when they banned all mention of 3E here in the OOP forums, the flame wars stopped. The minute it was allowed again, it flared up. Other boards which do not allow mixed messages and the posting of off-topic 3E posts in their OOP forums also lack such flame wars. It's self evident. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 30] Author : vader42xx Date : 05-14-04 02:46 AM I don't know if this has been said above as I got sick of reading throught it all (sick to my stomach that is)...but the simple fact of the matter is that this is the OOP forum. Here ALL things OOP should go. We like the OOP editions of D&D better so you have to expect a little "3e bashing." Wake up, we don't like 3e, that's why 99% of us are here! For those rare few who claim to like all editions (and nobody likes them all equally by the way) they have to expect a little "bashing" on both sides of the fence so they should be used to it and should take it as constructive for all editions that they so enjoy. Not to mention, if they can really see both sides of the fence then I bet they've got some great arguments, bring em on. I personally don't mind what many forums call "flame wars." Unless they devolve into "you're an idiot," "no, you're an idiot" I personally call them debates...remember those? I'd rather see this forum unmoderated altogether. Just leave it alone and let us argue to our heart's content. If a few of those who come here don't like it...go elsewhere. Because the sad truth is that most of us enjoy these debates. The conversion questions, the how do you do this questions, and the I want to see half-nude women on old D&D art topics are only a certain percentage of this forum...you've also got the people who want to share their views on why 3e is terrible. If others don't agree, good for them, debate it out. Debating which edition is better is NOT a crime nor is it even a BAD thing! We all have strong feelings on the subject and wish to be left alone so that we can voice them. I'm the first to say that everybody needs to respect the voice of others (including those 3e players who come here to debate it, leave them the heck alone too), but as long as that is happening then let it go! If a few are tired of reading something and ask for it to be closed, tough for them. As I recall nobody stuck a gun to their heads and made them go into that thread. Censorship is a bit out dated don't you think? Or at least it SHOULD be. Moderate for insults, for abuse, and for illegal actions...anything else, let us be adults and take care of it ourselves, thanks. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 31] Author : OlafTheUnbathed Date : 05-14-04 03:20 AM OK, I'm back in the ring for one more round. As Popeye said: "I've had alls I can stands and I can't stands no more." Paradox, you talk a good game. Let's get right down to it. Shall I go over to the 3e board and start a thread called: "THE SNOT NOSED PUNK'S GUIDE TO 3E." Just like Beavis123 started a thread here called "The Old Fuddy Duddy's Guide to 1st Ed", which is an insulting, condescending, trolling shillapaloooza that has been allowed to run untouched and without restraint here. What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander, right? Because all things are equal and you Wizzes are evenhanded and impartial, right? Right? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 32] Author : blackprinceofmuncie Date : 05-14-04 03:33 AM Originally posted by WizO_Paradox Some folks don't want 3e people on the board at all. We once had a lockdown on all 3e discussions. Someone commented that the OOP boards were nicer then. Is that what it takes to have a friendly, welcoming board? So... What DO you want me to do? EXACTLY THIS PLEASE!!!! :thumbsup: Simply declare discussion of 3e off topic on the OOP forum and delete, move or edit posts that do so. Encourage people who want to talk about the differences between D&D editions to do so in the D&D general forum or set up a specific forum for edition comparisons. This includes disallowing threads that complain about 3e as well as ones that praise it (as Halaster mentioned, there are several places on the intarweb where such topics are either welcome or well tolerated). The WotC OOP boards are the most visible portal for gamers wanting to rediscover OOP D&D to get in touch with a community of people who share their same gaming tastes and interests. IMO there are BETTER places for discussing OOP D&D, but none are as easily discoverable as a forum directly connected to the in-print version of the game. People wandering over here hoping that there are still people around interested in their favorite edition shouldn't have to wade through a bunch of posts by 3e fans telling them how great the current version of the game is and why it's such a mistake to be interested in continuing to play older versions. They shouldn't have to walk in on threads arguing that their favorite edition is an out-of-date, hard-to-understand, monstrosity filled with nonsensical rules and restrictions. That's a perfect recipe for driving those people away from the most available resource they have to get in touch with others who share their interests and THAT'S THE ATMOSPHERE THAT'S BEEN PROMULGATED BY THE BEHAVIOR OF BOTH POSTERS AND MODS ON THIS FORUM FOR YEARS! Right now you're getting flamewars because a few of the OOP fans who have managed to hang around in spite of the OOP unfriendly atmosphere have gotten fed up and started telling the off-topic posters and OOP bashers to go away, and demanding that the mods protect their right to post in an edition friendly atmosphere in the same way the mods protect the rights of the 3e fans in the 3e forums. Kick out the off topic posts and you will not only have the thanks of most of the posters in this forum, you'll also be kicking most of the flame wars out right along with them. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 33] Author : Sarta Date : 05-14-04 03:39 AM Look guys, we are being given a chance on Wizards' boards to discuss products they don't make a penny from. Can people simply swallow a fraction of their pride and not continue to give our mods grief? If you see trolling, just fight the urge to respond and simply let the thread die. If you feel the urge to create a new thread about how every gaming system released since 1978 is junk, again fight this urge. This is the board that I assume has on average the oldest readers. It would be nice if we could all dredge up a bit of the maturity that is supposed to go along with that. Sarta -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 34] Author : Tenzhi Date : 05-14-04 03:40 AM Originally posted by Halaster-Blackcloak Ah, I see. There's not enough traffic just talking about OOP stuff, so let's discuss 3E too? Not at all. Just pointing out that the argument about it "drowning out" other discussions didn't hold water. Two problems. First, Perfect World Syndrome. In a perfect world, there would be a place for everything and everything would fit perfectly in its place with no blurring of lines or definitions. If people want to continually debate which edition is better or compare editions, then they should have an Edition Comparison board. Lacking such a board such discussions must-needs go in the next most appropriate place - which would be either here or D&D General. Counter-question: Why shouldn't it be allowed on the 3E boards? Perhaps you missed me saying it also belongs in D&D General... Using that warped logic, posts should be made to the 3E boards talking about OOP editions simply because they're in part on-topic. And they sometimes are - often when someone wants to convert something from a previous edition. Should there be an entirely seperate board for conversions too? How much micromanagement of subject matter does one really need? I mean, if the OOP post mentions fighters, spells, wizards, skills, saving throws, etc, then it's as on topic in the 3E section as the OOP section, right? That obviously depends on how they're referring to fighters, wizards, skills, saving throws, etc. in said post. Under the right circumstance, yes it would be on-topic in either place. And again I will emphasize the fact that edition fights are not allowed on the 3E boards. A discussion isn't necessarily a fight. Perfect example...if I posted to the 3E general board asking people what 1E feels like, it would be moved here to the OOP board. If you could justify relating it to 3E in some way, it shouldn't necessarily be moved. And yet someone posted a thread here asking about the "feel" of 3E. Who in their right mind posts a question about a new edition in an OOP forum? That makes no sense at all. That thread should have been moved to the 3E general board. Who would know better what 3E feels like...players who have not switched to 3E and hence are OOP gamers, or 3E players who actually play the game? Who would know how 3E sizes up compared to the feel of all previous editions better (which is what the thread in question was asking) - OOP gamers who play the earlier editions and in many cases have given 3E a whirl, or 3E gamers who STARTED playing D&D with 3rd Edition? No, the sole reason is because discussion of IN PRINT games does not belong in a forum devoted to OUT OF PRINT games, especially when the in-print games have 50 times as many forums devoted to them. Sour grapes? Even posts asking about comparisons and conversions make little sense to ask in the OOP forum. That depends on the nature of the conversion and comparison. Why? Because most OOP gamers who are regulars here do not play 3E, so they cannot give you advice on playing 3E. In contrast, most 3E gamers were already gamers and hence were familiar with the earlier editions. As such, the PROPER place to discuss comparisons or conversions is in the 3E forum. Again, that depends entirely upon the nature of the discussion, but in many cases the discussion would belong as much (though not necessarily moreso) in a 3E forum. Also, by allowing 3E related threads in the OOP section, you dilute the already relatively smaller number of posts which are on topic. There's plenty of space for 3E posts in 3E forums, that's where they should stay. That reasoning is a bit oxymoronic - the 3E sections are overflowing with traffic as compared to the OOP section, so the 3E sections have more room for posts that might belong in either section. Finally, and this is the nail on the coffin of the argument, when they banned all mention of 3E here in the OOP forums, the flame wars stopped. The minute it was allowed again, it flared up. Other boards which do not allow mixed messages and the posting of off-topic 3E posts in their OOP forums also lack such flame wars. It's self evident. A few of said discussions here didn't seem particularly flame-y to me. What seems self-evident to me is that the expectation to completely segregate D&D from D&D is unrealistic at best and foolhardy in the long run. One wonders what the reactionaries will do when 4th Ed comes along and 3.5 is OOP... (which brings up another point - technically, 3rd Edition is now OOP and any discussion involving it really belongs here) :behold: -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 35] Author : blackprinceofmuncie Date : 05-14-04 03:42 AM Originally posted by vader42xx Censorship is a bit out dated don't you think? Or at least it SHOULD be. Moderate for insults, for abuse, and for illegal actions...anything else, let us be adults and take care of it ourselves, thanks. It's not about censorship, it's about putting posts in the correct forum for the topic. The OOP boards should not be a dumping ground for edition wars just because the Wizos care enough about the 3e forums to keep them out of there. If a thread is comparing 1e and 3e, it's going to have just as much 3e content as 1e, therefore it belongs just as much on the 3e forums as here, but you don't see those threads in the 3e forums or in D&D General. Why is that???? It's because the mods won't allow them and the 3e shills that come here and start them know they won't get much of a response there. I'm not asking for censorship, I'm all for people having whatever discussions they want in the appropriate forum. The key words being in the appropriate forum. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 36] Author : Algolei Date : 05-14-04 05:37 AM Originally posted by Sarta This is the board that I assume has on average the oldest readers. It would be nice if we could all dredge up a bit of the maturity that is supposed to go along with that. Eh? Where'd you hear that? That must be a 3E thing. ;) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 37] Author : diaglo Date : 05-14-04 07:17 AM Originally posted by OlafTheUnbathed "THE SNOT NOSED PUNK'S GUIDE TO 3E." it has been done before by yours truly ;) i ran a conversion thread in every single forum. part of the questions and debate being discussed in this thread is part of the reason my OoP Forum FAQ is taking so long. i add questions and then have to revise them based on the current occupants here/ what threads are being removed. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 38] Author : Incenjucar Date : 05-14-04 07:50 AM Originally posted by blackprinceofmuncie It's not about censorship, it's about putting posts in the correct forum for the topic. The OOP boards should not be a dumping ground for edition wars just because the Wizos care enough about the 3e forums to keep them out of there. If a thread is comparing 1e and 3e, it's going to have just as much 3e content as 1e, therefore it belongs just as much on the 3e forums as here, but you don't see those threads in the 3e forums or in D&D General. Why is that???? It's because the mods won't allow them and the 3e shills that come here and start them know they won't get much of a response there. Nah. It's because the 3e boards are full of people whining, both seriously and in jest, about 7th edition. Seriously. Check the general board. But I agree with Tenzhi, it's going to be funny as bloody heck when 3e BELONGS here. Especially when the 3ers start complaining about 4ers showing up in their forum asking for conversion information. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 39] Author : diaglo Date : 05-14-04 08:12 AM Originally posted by Incenjucar But I agree with Tenzhi, it's going to be funny as bloody heck when 3e BELONGS here. Especially when the 3ers start complaining about 4ers showing up in their forum asking for conversion information. this topic too is old. when the talk of the revised edition started. threads of this nature appeared here. probably the prune cleared them already -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 40] Author : vader42xx Date : 05-14-04 09:53 AM Seems several of us are fighting for different things. I pesonally don't see any problem with the mention of 3e here. In fact, it's impossible to get rid of it. If people want to know the differences, this is a good place to ask. If I want to know the differences between modern war ships and the old wooden version I don't ask the modern guys if I can find someone around who still makes the old type. Especially if that person in question happens to have knowledge of the new stuff even if he's not thrilled by it. I agree that this forum gets the short end of the stick (big surprise) but I don't think we should be trying to end all 3e talks here. If they don't relate to old editions in some positive manner then it goes but, otherwise, I see no problem with it. So, for me, the key issue here is censorship. I'm not bothered by the fact that a few 3e players want to stop by and have a chat, I go on their forums and chat after all. What I'm bothered by is perfectly good topics and/or debates being locked for no good reason. I think a few of the OOP forumers are asking for a bit too much as well to be honest. Those who want the removal of all 3e topics and don't expect anyone to come defend the game they enjoy when it starts getting talked about (bashed or not) are going a little too far in my mind. I say let the debates come, on both sides. So long as it's constructive and has something to do with older edtions, it belongs here in my eyes. :) P.S- And Incenjucar makes a good point...a very funny good point. :D -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 41] Author : Wyrmbane Date : 05-14-04 10:02 AM Simple solution to the problem really. Don't talk about 3e, don't mention 3e, don't compare 3e, don't think about 3e on this board. If 3e is mentioned, kill the post or lock the thread. I'm still trying to figure out why the 3e gamers keep coming here anyway. We're not discussing that game (or not supposed to be anyway). This seemed like a good place to exchange ideas or ask questions about anything but 3e. Boy, have I been mistaken. :/ -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 42] Author : diaglo Date : 05-14-04 10:04 AM Originally posted by vader42xx I say let the debates come, on both sides. So long as it's constructive and has something to do with older edtions, it belongs here in my eyes. :) debates are not allowed anywhere on the boards except in the sponsored threads... which are announced and made stickies. there is no room for flame wars on this board. constructive talk is allowed. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 43] Author : diaglo Date : 05-14-04 10:06 AM Originally posted by Wyrmbane This seemed like a good place to exchange ideas or ask questions about anything but 3e. Boy, have I been mistaken. :/ the mistake by both sides is thinking that this is a hang out for older gamers. it may be true. but that is not the purpose of this board. don't come here expecting to talk to only older gamers. it is for the discussion of OoP material only -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 44] Author : vader42xx Date : 05-14-04 12:25 PM I don't know where you get that debates aren't allowed but if they aren't then I totally disagree. Debates are what makes such forums fun, interesting, and helpful. Don't know if you were saying you don't like debates Diaglo or if you were giving the boards a bit of a knee-jerk, but I personally think debates (not name calling, but constructive debates) are the best part of such forums. :) P.S- And why do you think "debate" automatically equals a "flame war?" In my mind a flame war is when two sides are just yelling back and forth at each other without any evidence. Those who actually think X edition is better than Y editon should be able to voice their thoughts. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 45] Author : Gandalf_Istari Date : 05-14-04 01:02 PM Halaster, I'm really on your side man. I don't care for 3rd edition for the most part, and even though I've played that edition it was because at the time thats what my college friends were playing and I didn't have other people to play D&D with. I have however subsequently dropped 3rd edition altogether, and have tried to introduce people to the older editions so they can see where I am coming from when I tell them I don't care for 3rd ed. I agree with and understand why you don't like 3rd ed. (for the most part), but I'm not so bitter about it that I am unable to have a mature and reasonable discussion with people who do play 3rd edition. When someone who has only played 1st or 2nd ed. back in the day comes to the OOP board and asks old schoolers what their opinion is on whether they should buy new books or just stick with their older edition, that is a valid question and inquiry for advice. When a 3rd ed. gamer comes here and says, "Hey I know how this works in 3rd ed., but how did it work in other editions? What would OOP'ers suggest I do to convert such and such from older editions to 3rd ed. or vice versa? What is the history of such and such monster in 3rd ed. from the older editions? Where can I find such and such to use in my 3rd ed. campaign?" These are legitimate fodder for the OOP boards. IF the mods were willing to make sure there were no insults and abusive language, then I see no problem with people asking about how to convert 3rd ed. stuff to older editions, or older edition stuff to newer editions, or for people who have been away from the game to ask for input from OOP'ers about 3rd ed. and whether they should stick with OOP or buy new books. Its one thing to not like the ruleset, or even the company that put that ruleset out. Its another thing entirely when gamers can't get together and have a civil discussion. If you're really that bitter, maybe you should either move on, or relax a little. Maybe if we all calm down a bit, we can come together as gamers and have some real discussions about the game and move on from the bitterness that is displayed by people on both sides of the debate. And that's not pie in the sky either. With proper moderation, ANY board can have lively debate and discussion without flame wars. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 46] Author : diaglo Date : 05-14-04 01:13 PM Originally posted by vader42xx I don't know where you get that debates aren't allowed but if they aren't then I totally disagree. Debates are what makes such forums fun, interesting, and helpful. it comes from experience on this board. i've been here since 1997. i saw it go thru www.tsr.com and become the WotC boards and the several changes since then. hang around enough and you too will see. actually the part i posted was debated before. Doxxie et. al. decided the policy for what constitutes a debate on this board. debate is fine imho. but... it will only lead to flame wars as has been proven time and time again on this forum (OoP). i will just restate... every 3 to 4 months these boards erupt. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 47] Author : vader42xx Date : 05-14-04 01:52 PM Ok, gotcha, I just wasn't sure where you were coming from. And I'm sure you're right about the debates (I've been here for the last 3 or 4 years myself and was around the tsr boards for a while as well). But, if we're pushing for change that's one thing I think needs to be changed. If debate is handled well then it's a good thing in my eyes. And, yes, I'm sure debates do lead to flame wars often times and those threads should be closed, but closing something to "head the flame war off at the pass" is nothing but censorship as far as I'm concerned. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 48] Author : Thailfi Date : 05-14-04 02:21 PM Look guys, we are being given a chance on Wizards' boards to discuss products they don't make a penny from. I beg to differ. I play 1e and 2e exclusively, but I have spent a few hundred dollars on the WOTC D&D mini line. If I didn't play AD&D I would not have spent a penny on these minis. If I didn't play AD&D there would be no chance that I would pick up one of the fantasy fiction books that WOTC profits from. This board is still the closest thing that WOTC is likely to get to free advertising. Every person that comes here gets exposed to WOTC products in one way or another. WOTC does not maintain this board out of the goodness of their heart nor should they. I personally don't mind when 3e people post hear as long as they do so politely. I post on the in print forums as an unapologetic OOP player. I play nice and most of the posters do the same. I'll ask edition comparitive questions on occaision in their forum. I have yet to be yelled at by a 3e poster. I actually posted on the fuddy-duddy thread. I don't mind the thread. I may have turned around my posts so they were making fun of 3e, but I don't see anything wrong with it. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 49] Author : skathros Date : 05-14-04 03:06 PM Originally posted by Serena DarkMyst I absolutely refuse to join into this pointless arguement. Yet you feel the need to add to the disscussion? Yeah, whatever you say... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 50] Author : Serena DarkMyst Date : 05-14-04 03:14 PM Originally posted by Thailfi I beg to differ. I play 1e and 2e exclusively, but I have spent a few hundred dollars on the WOTC D&D mini line. If I didn't play AD&D I would not have spent a penny on these minis. If I didn't play AD&D there would be no chance that I would pick up one of the fantasy fiction books that WOTC profits from. But thats not what he means. This board is dedicated to OOP D&D right? OOP D&D of any kind are products that WotC make no money at all from. I am actually amazed that they continue to have a forum dedicated to it. Im not saying they shouldnt. I really like this forum here, threads with ridiculous edition wars not included in this comment. Ive said many times before that the people on the various sides of the fence could get along if they really wanted to. But if this place goes back to disallowing any mention of 3rd Edition, Id say that on the same token that all the other boards should disallow any kind of talk about OOP D&D. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 51] Author : Serena DarkMyst Date : 05-14-04 03:17 PM Originally posted by skathros Yet you feel the need to add to the disscussion? Yeah, whatever you say... Yes, I do. But I am not going to add to the ridiculous drivel that seems to be cropping up in it. This thread seems to have been an exercise in arguing about editions and arguing about the mods. Im not gonna do either. I like all the editions with good reason. And I respect the mods decisions whatever they are as it is their job. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 52] Author : Thailfi Date : 05-14-04 03:59 PM But thats not what he means. This board is dedicated to OOP D&D right? OOP D&D of any kind are products that WotC make no money at all from. I am actually amazed that they continue to have a forum dedicated to it. Ah, but if WOTC didn't have an OOP forum, how many of the old edition players would stop by the Wizards site to look at all the cool new diversified products that WOTC is putting out? The OOP forum is here because WOTC still entertains hope of squeezing money out of the old edition players. Every business hopes to grow its customer base. Unfortunately for WOTC, D&D has a limited appeal. What better way to try to expand your customer base than by appealing directly to people you know have a predisposition to use your product? This forum most certainly would not exist if WOTC didn't see some profit in it. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 53] Author : beavis123 Date : 05-14-04 05:23 PM Thread Title : I agree I agree that older gamers (such as myself) have predisposition to buy more products. I have recently purchased some new material. I have also gone on ebay and found some excellent OOP products. I disagree that D&D has a limited appeal. The lack of mainstream advertising and marketing has reduced its appeal. It will never be as big as it once was, but it can still draw people to it. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 54] Author : WizO_Paradox Date : 05-14-04 08:27 PM So, I've had two ideas. The first is to pull the forum away from all the "3e" forums. Not have a link to it from the main forums, but have a link in say, the Other Worlds, and FR boards. Of course, I'd expect more accusations of "See! He's trying to sweep us under the rug!" when I'm trying to keep out the 3e trolls. (Do you see the no-win postition the WizOs are in?) The other is a "Conversion Board" where folks can discuss the various editions, and how to convert from one edition to another. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 55] Author : blackprinceofmuncie Date : 05-14-04 09:17 PM It's nice to see you've given the situation some thought WizO_Paradox. Personally, I hate the first suggestion and love the second. Putting the OOP forum in an out of the way place won't keep the trolls from finding it. But it might keep the casual OOP board cruiser from finding it. Having a separate forum for conversions/comparisons sounds like a grand idea. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 56] Author : skathros Date : 05-14-04 09:23 PM Originally posted by WizO_Paradox The other is a "Conversion Board" where folks can discuss the various editions, and how to convert from one edition to another. I know that at times i complain, and whine ;) but, i know i good idea when i see it and have no problems saying so. Paradox...that's a really good idea:) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 57] Author : Tenzhi Date : 05-14-04 11:24 PM Originally posted by diaglo debates are not allowed anywhere on the boards except in the sponsored threads... Casual debate happens on most of the forums here all the time. Formal debate (a generally worthless concept) is a different story and only happens in sponsored threads. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 58] Author : Halaster-Blackcloak Date : 05-15-04 12:28 AM Paradox wrote: The first is to pull the forum away from all the "3e" forums. Not have a link to it from the main forums, but have a link in say, the Other Worlds, and FR boards. Now that makes about as much sense as it does to come to the OOP board asking about the "feel" of 3E. :rolleyes: Of course, I'd expect more accusations of "See! He's trying to sweep us under the rug!" when I'm trying to keep out the 3e trolls. (Do you see the no-win postition the WizOs are in?) You're not in a no-win situation. The reason so many WizOs feel that way is because they put themselves in no-win situations. For example, your idea about moving the OOP board, what would that accomplish as far as resolving the problem? Nothing. Did you honestly think that action was going to keep out the 3E trolls? What, were the OOP people going to be emailed a secret password that the 3E trolls could not get? :rolleyes: Or did you think the 3e trolls would be incapable of finding it? See what I mean? It's bad decisions that put you in hard places. Good decisions will result in good feedback. Sure, there will always be some lunatic who can't be pleased no matter what you do, but that's inevitable. It's not a perfect world. The problem is and always has been poor moderation on this site. The other is a "Conversion Board" where folks can discuss the various editions, and how to convert from one edition to another. Yup. That's obviously the best solution. That way, 3E people who want to compare/convert 3E to OOP or vice versa can do so without ******* off OOP people who are sick of hearing about 3E, people who want to talk solely about OOP editions have their own space, and everyone is happy. That's called a GOOD decision. :) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 59] Author : OlafTheUnbathed Date : 05-15-04 12:46 AM The conversion board is a worthy idea all on its own, Paradox. It would be a good resource for all. While it couldn't be a panacea for what ails this board, it would probably be of great help, and it certainly couldn't hurt. *warily sheathes sword, tips hat* -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 60] Author : vader42xx Date : 05-15-04 01:47 AM The Conversion forum isn't how I would like to see things done as I've stated above but it's the best idea of the two that you mentioned and it seems like a good compromise. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 61] Author : beavis123 Date : 05-15-04 10:04 PM Thread Title : I hope I don't where this board is headed, but I hope it stays. As long as I am able to talk with others about Star Frontiers. I just received the latest Dragon magazine. Celebrating 30 year anniversary. It showed the history and alot of great pictures of the old game. I liked reading the history. The editor warned(?) promised (?) that Dungeons & Dragons would change more in the next five years than it did in the first thirty. I am sure there will be more and more to talk about. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 62] Author : blackprinceofmuncie Date : 05-19-04 04:38 PM Originally posted by WizO_Paradox The other is a "Conversion Board" where folks can discuss the various editions, and how to convert from one edition to another. Can we get an update on the status of this new board? Is it going to happen? When can we expect it to show up? etc. Thanks! :) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 63] Author : skathros Date : 05-19-04 10:14 PM a conversion board seems like an interesting idea...at the very least, it'll prevent those 3E fans coming here bashing the older versions from using the conversion excuse! "er...yeah...but i want to convert Vault of the Drow to 3E!!!" Sure you do:rolleyes: -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 64] Author : Halaster-Blackcloak Date : 05-19-04 11:10 PM I'll bet each of you $100 that the idea gets flushed. Why? Because that would FIX the problem, and fixing problems is not policy around here. Oh wait. Maybe I can't bet you. That might be against the rules too. :rolleyes: -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 65] Author : skathros Date : 05-19-04 11:18 PM Originally posted by Halaster-Blackcloak Oh wait. Maybe I can't bet you. That might be against the rules too. :rolleyes: :D you forget, there are no coherent rules here, just stuff the mods make up on the fly depending on their moods. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 66] Author : WizO_Paradox Date : 05-19-04 11:19 PM Sigh. Fixing problems IS the policy around here. But, I guess you don't have to worry about staffing issues and budgets and any of that. Nor does it seem that there is any patience in letting me get the darn thing up for a trial run. If the idea gets flushed, it would because too many people would rather complain and gripe when a solution is in the works and they know it, than to sit back and wait to see how it flies. Final time I'm asking nicely guys. Please stop antagonizing the boards, the WizOs, other guests and WotC. There is no need for it, and it won't get you anywhere but banned. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 67] Author : Halaster-Blackcloak Date : 05-19-04 11:38 PM Doxxie, as I mentioned in the PM I sent you, if the WizOs do indeed take action and create the Conversion/Comparison board and shunt off all the 3E talk from the OOP boards, I for one will stand up and give you a (virtual) standing ovation for finally fixing a problem here at WOTC that's been a problem for at least 4 full years now. I'll simmer down in the meantime and see if this solution, which is the best solution (and only workable one I know of) actually comes into being. In other words, I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt that you're going to try to actually fix the problem once and for all instead of letting it fester as it has for 4 years now. Can you at least keep us up to date on how long this process will take? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 68] Author : Strephon Alkhalikoi Date : 05-20-04 12:02 AM Originally posted by WizO_Paradox Sigh. Fixing problems IS the policy around here. But, I guess you don't have to worry about staffing issues and budgets and any of that. Nor does it seem that there is any patience in letting me get the darn thing up for a trial run. If the idea gets flushed, it would because too many people would rather complain and gripe when a solution is in the works and they know it, than to sit back and wait to see how it flies. Final time I'm asking nicely guys. Please stop antagonizing the boards, the WizOs, other guests and WotC. There is no need for it, and it won't get you anywhere but banned. Fixing problems is not policy here, and you know it. I made it a habit to not post at this place until very recently, when it became necessary to step foot into the s#!^ pile here. And all I've seen is thread after thread locked for nothing more than mentioning OOP product. That sir, falls directly upon YOUR shoulders. People here no longer have patience with this forum, and no longer have patience for the moderators. As Halaster has mentioned, this has been going on for four years now. After four years of the same old thing every night, I'm sure even you would get sick and tired of it. The people here demand INSTANT action, and I do believe they are deserving of that. Anything else is but a waste of time and energy. To put it succinctly, talk is cheap. Spend the energy actually fixing the problems that people are speaking about here instead of talking about it and doing nothing. Shrugs What do I know? I'm only talking to a brick wall. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 69] Author : blackprinceofmuncie Date : 05-20-04 12:21 AM Hey guys, I was hoping for an informative response from WizO_Paradox on this issue. It's going to be hard to get that if he's forced to defend himself every time he responds to this thread. The attacks back and forth are clouding the real issue, which is whether or not the proposed solution is going to be implemented and if so, how long it will take. Why don't we give WizO_Paradox a chance to respond to that question before everyone goes on the war path. M'kay? :) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 70] Author : Falstaff the Fighter Date : 05-20-04 12:26 AM Exactly how does it take so long to make such a board? I am an amateaur programmer, a real rook, and I can set up an entire board with several forums in less than an hour's time, and yes, I am talking UBB style, not like EZ Board or soemthing. Budget, i can quasi-understand, since this new board might eat more bandwidth allocation. Staffing? Meh, maybe. In my experince, even at another professional board of a size rivaling this I used to be into, moderation staffing was never a real issue. But time? These things do not take a whole lot of time. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 71] Author : WizO_Paradox Date : 05-20-04 12:44 AM Sigh. So much easier had someone droped me a quick note or something. The actual creation of the forum won't take long. There are other issues at work here, though. 1 Staffing. There are a lot of forums around here. I can't spread the WizOs too thinly. 2. Other board changes. I've been planning on making other board changes as well. I'm trying to cut back on the number of boards and make things easier to navigate. 3. Deciding where it would go. Keep it near the OOP boards? Put it with other "creation" boards? 4. It's not the only issue I'm currently dealing with. There are lots of other behind the scenes stuff going on. And don't bother with "See? Shuffleing us under the rug again." business. I've already got this filed under the board change list. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 72] Author : Halaster-Blackcloak Date : 05-20-04 01:42 AM WizO_Paradox said: . Deciding where it would go. Keep it near the OOP boards? Put it with other "creation" boards? It's always best to store matches far away from the powder keg. ;) I'd put it in with the creations board. It's really more a creative sort of topic, not an edition specific one. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 73] Author : Incenjucar Date : 05-20-04 02:40 AM You also need to make sure that the "We Don't Want To Ever Hear About 3e" board goes deep in to the netherworld so that it's not the first thing people go to when trying to get 0e informatin for 3e material. Cliques shouldn't be easier to run in to than open groups. Also, it shouldn't be a "Conversion" board as it should be a "Multiple Editions" board. Asking "How is 2e Different from 3e" isn't a conversion, but it'll still get you screamed at by the 'old bears'. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 74] Author : Halaster-Blackcloak Date : 05-20-04 02:55 AM That's why I said it should be called the "Edition COMPARISON/Mixed Editions Forum." Also, what you said here makes no sense: Cliques shouldn't be easier to run in to than open groups. The OOP boards are no more a "clique" than the 3E boards. You want to talk OOP stuff, go to the OOP board. You want to talk 3E, go to the 3E board. You want to compare editions, go to the Edition Comparison board. It's not rocket science. Setting up a Comparison/Mixed forums ensures that only those who are interested in comparing and mixing editions go there. People who are only interested in talking OOP stuff free of all the 3E stuff mixed in get the same respect as 3E gamers who aren't interested in discussing "obsolete" editions (as many of them see it). Problem solved. It's so easy when you slather it in common sense, now isn't it? :rolleyes: -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 75] Author : Incenjucar Date : 05-20-04 03:35 AM clique, coterie, ingroup, inner circle, pack, camp -- an exclusive circle of people with a common purpose Nobody spazzes about OOP information being mentioned on various boards. Planescape is mentioned, at the very least, in The Monster Lair, D&D Miniatures, D&D General, Draconomicon, Ghostwalk, Savage Species, Deities and Demigods, Epic Level Handbook, Manual of the Planes, Mature Accessories line, and likely just about every other D&D forum on the boards, such as FR. Dark Sun is mentioned less often, but has quite a few mentions all over the boards. Monster Information is dragged from every edition on to the Monster Lair board. Nobody gets upset when they mention the "Immortals" material on the ELH board. The rest of the boards are not exclusionary. The Reincarnated OOP board -will be-, or so it looks. Thus, it's a clique. That's not a bad thing. It means an end to the childish arguments that are only going to make people afraid to make D&D of any edition a part of their life. But it is what it is. No need to pretend otherwise. The OOP-Only forums should be where they aren't going to get accidental traffic, and thus should be replaced, position-wise, by the one where people are allowed to talk about 3e+ information without being insulted or given extremely wrong information (Such as "Nobody plays humans in 3e"). -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 76] Author : Falstaff the Fighter Date : 05-20-04 03:41 AM May I offer a suggestion? Why not make a forum called something like "Edition Melting Pot" or "Melting Pot" and have it be for players and DMs who run combined edition games and for those who seek to convert one edition to another. It could look something like this: Edition Melting Pot The place for multi-edition Dungeons and Dragons gaming as well as edition to edition conversion questions and materials. How is that as an option? It certainly does not seem to make a clique, and it seems like it would imply a helpful, cooperative atmosphere. Isn't that what you want? I would volunteer to write the FAQ for it, and if anyone spazzes out there after this, then boot their butts by all means. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 77] Author : Halaster-Blackcloak Date : 05-20-04 04:26 AM Perfect! And a lot less clumsy than "Edition Comparisons and Mixing"! I like it! :) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 78] Author : Incenjucar Date : 05-20-04 04:33 AM Sounds good to me. Just so long as it allows people to talk freely about either edition in a constructive manner without getting booed and hissed for playing the 'wrong' edition. As for clique, I meant what the "OOP Only" board will be. Basically, this board will be split in two, one board for people who get upset at 3e being mentioned in the holy land of OOP, and one board for people who like to chat about both, whether for conversions, comparisons, or whatever. But, as a "Only" board, I feel it should be moved away from the "Not Only" boards, because, otherwise, some poor sod will see "OOP" and go and mention 3e there, and get cursed at in the name of Gygax and The Holy Books of B/X. General rule, if you have a chance of being verbally attacked by being mistaken, that area should not be on the front page. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 79] Author : Halaster-Blackcloak Date : 05-20-04 04:56 AM Icenjucar wrote: Nobody spazzes about OOP information being mentioned on various boards. I won't debate the issue endlessly with you. The situation is what it is. Of course no one "spazzes" on the 3E-centric boards when OOP information is posted. They usually flip off a derogatory remark and that's considered perfectly acceptable. Don't tell me it doesn't happen, I've seen it happen. I recall one particularly pathetic and condescending post where someone asked about advice on his OOP game and the replies he got consisted of nothing more than "upgrade to 3E". Not convert or change even, but UPGRADE, as if it were a default and universally accepted fact that 3E is better. The thread then turned into an OOP bashing circus. As usual. The rest of the boards are not exclusionary. The Reincarnated OOP board -will be-, or so it looks. Thus, it's a clique. What you're referring to as "exclusionary" we're calling "on topic". Why you fail to understand the distinction is beyond me, since it's self explanatory. Why have an OOP forum if you're going to post and discuss non-OOP stuff daily? For that matter, if that's how you see it, why have a Planescape board or a DMG board? Let's just mix it all together! :rolleyes: The OOP-Only forums Why are you so fixated on that issue as if it's something abnormal? Do you not realize that one of the jobs of the WizOs is to move posts to the proper and relevant forum? Do you fail to understand that a forum dedicated to OOP stuff should indeed be discussing OOP material and not 3E stuff? How the hell is it any different to require on-topic OOP posts in an OOP forum when a Greyhawk thread posted to a Forgotten Realms forum will get moved to the appropriate Greyhawk forum? If your attitude is not biased in the extreme, I don't know what is. The OOP-Only forums should be where they aren't going to get accidental traffic, and thus should be replaced, position-wise, by the one where people are allowed to talk about 3e+ information without being insulted Bah! You're an OOP hater is all. You want to dismiss the OOP baord and bury it where it can't be seen simply because OOP gamers want to keep the discussion appropriately on-topic? That's ridiculous. :nonono: or given extremely wrong information (Such as "Nobody plays humans in 3e"). Oh, like the false information given out in the 3E forums about how OOP editions are limiting, inflexible, and don't allow you to play a character you like, or how all their various rules are "broken"? :rolleyes: -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 80] Author : Falstaff the Fighter Date : 05-20-04 05:00 AM The more I think about, the more a conversion board would be a good idea in my opinion. Think about it: If your playing all the editions together, it will give you a place to talk to like minded folks and get ideas. If your looking for conversion information, you can look there instead of sorting through varioous pages of nostalgia (Not that there is anything wrong with nostalgia, I am a big fan of it.). -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 81] Author : Incenjucar Date : 05-20-04 05:59 AM Originally posted by Halaster-Blackcloak Icenjucar wrote: I won't debate the issue endlessly with you. The situation is what it is. Of course no one "spazzes" on the 3E-centric boards when OOP information is posted. They usually flip off a derogatory remark and that's considered perfectly acceptable. Don't tell me it doesn't happen, I've seen it happen. Pardon. I made the mistake of making an absolute statement. What I should have said was, "By and large, people welcome OOP information 3e boards, and have no issue with discussing OOP flavor information." However, I, personally, have very rarely seen any such occur, and it's usually with people who don't stay on these boards for very long. I recall one particularly pathetic and condescending post where someone asked about advice on his OOP game and the replies he got consisted of nothing more than "upgrade to 3E". Not convert or change even, but UPGRADE, as if it were a default and universally accepted fact that 3E is better. The thread then turned into an OOP bashing circus. As usual. Heaven forbid someone think that a new edition is an upgrade. I've heard rumors that they're bringing back a version of Windows 95 because many prefer it over XP, but XP is still, technically, an upgrade, despite. Edition elitism occurs in all editions. The same people that argue along your side now, in the past, may very well have argued against each other when AD&D came out, or when 2e came out. None of you are right or wrong. It's entirely subjective. If it matters to you what another person thinks, that's your problem. What you're referring to as "exclusionary" we're calling "on topic". Why you fail to understand the distinction is beyond me, since it's self explanatory. Why have an OOP forum if you're going to post and discuss non-OOP stuff daily? For that matter, if that's how you see it, why have a Planescape board or a DMG board? Let's just mix it all together! :rolleyes: Oh my god, mixing information! Horrors! It's not like anything ever has to do with anything else! Look, Planescape has its own board, but I already noted how many boards its information spreads. Did you know that Dragon recently did an update on Dark Sun stuff? Yeah, that's right, they REFERENCED OOP INFORMATION for *gasp* 3e. And where did they get it? OOP Books! Are you saying that Planescape discussion should be banned from every non-Planescape board? No more talking about Rogue Modrons on the races board? No more talking about Hordlings on the Monster board? No more talking about Razorvine weapons on the Magic Items board? No more talking about Faction PrCs on the DMG boards? No more talking about Modron minis on the Miniatures boards? No more talking about Planar dragons on the Draconomicon board? No more talking about Ghosts on the Planes on the Ghostwalk board?? No more talking about playing a cambion on Savage Species? No more mentioning On Hallowed Ground on the Deities board? No more Epic Planescape conversions? No more talking about the planar homes of the asian deities on the OA boards? No more talking about Sigilian equipment on Tools of the Trade? No more converting Baku on the psionics board? No more talking about demon lords on the Mature Accessories Board? Not going to happen. Thank the Lady. Why are you so fixated on that issue as if it's something abnormal? Do you not realize that one of the jobs of the WizOs is to move posts to the proper and relevant forum? Do you fail to understand that a forum dedicated to OOP stuff should indeed be discussing OOP material and not 3E stuff? If it has a mention of OOP, it's OOP-applicable. If I want info on Tabaxi lords for 3e, guess where I go? How the hell is it any different to require on-topic OOP posts in an OOP forum when a Greyhawk thread posted to a Forgotten Realms forum will get moved to the appropriate Greyhawk forum? If your attitude is not biased in the extreme, I don't know what is. You do know that FR and GH have many cross-references, don't you? The named wizards of the spell lists eat pizza and ice cream together on Earth. And please, keep your personal attacks to yourself. Bah! You're an OOP hater is all. Oh good lord. This is like saying I'm racist because I don't give special treatment to minorities. I have 77 2e books in my gaming library, and have absolutely no intention of getting rid of them. Hell, I've considered getting a fire proof safe for them. But clearly, I despise OOP books. Grarrr! You want to dismiss the OOP baord and bury it where it can't be seen simply because OOP gamers want to keep the discussion appropriately on-topic? That's ridiculous. :nonono: I'm saying that the -exclusive- OOP board should be out of the way, while an INCLUSIVE one is put in public view in its place. Oh, like the false information given out in the 3E forums about how OOP editions are limiting, inflexible, and don't allow you to play a character you like, or how all their various rules are "broken"? :rolleyes: It's called a perception. There are rules in all editions that are screwed up. People call just about everything broken that isn't weak, and things that are weak they call nerfed. Are you suggesting that every single thing in OOP is 'unbroken'? Are you suggesting someone said that stat generation is broken? (Absolute statements = evil) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 82] Author : Halaster-Blackcloak Date : 05-20-04 07:11 AM Icenjucar wrote: Pardon. I made the mistake of making an absolute statement. What I should have said was, "By and large, people welcome OOP information 3e boards, and have no issue with discussing OOP flavor information." However, I, personally, have very rarely seen any such occur, and it's usually with people who don't stay on these boards for very long. Doesn't matter who said it or how long they stayed on the boards. The fact is that OOP bashing is generally overlooked and allowed compared to 3E bashing. Heaven forbid someone think that a new edition is an upgrade. I've heard rumors that they're bringing back a version of Windows 95 because many prefer it over XP, but XP is still, technically, an upgrade, despite. That's a terrible analogy. I still use Windows 98. When the "upgrade" of Windows 2000 came out, I did not "upgrade", and most people consider Windows 2000 to be the worst version. Windows 98 does everything I want it to do. Not a single time have I tried to do something new on my computer and have it fail because I didn't "upgrade". There are also people who like older versions of Outlook Express or Internet Explorer over newer editions. Beyond all that, the analogy also doesn't apply because there's not enough objective "improvements" to 3E to make the analogy work. With Windows you can measure faster speed, more stability, more flexibility, etc. Doesn't work with D&D. Many of us find that we can do anything we could possibly want with OOP editions. I have never yet run into a problem using those editions. "Upgrading" to 3E would not give me a single objective advantage over staying with OOP editions. It's all subjective. Edition elitism occurs in all editions. And yet it's only tolerated here when the elitism is a 3E poster thumbing his nose at OOP versions. Glad you pointed that out. :rolleyes: The same people that argue along your side now, in the past, may very well have argued against each other when AD&D came out, or when 2e came out. None of you are right or wrong. It's entirely subjective. If it matters to you what another person thinks, that's your problem. You're preaching to the choir, son. I've already said all that. It's irrelevant. What it boils down to is not what someone thinks, but rather the fact that the administration of rules is not even handed here. The fact that posts which OOP gamers consider OOP bashing are allowed and yet posts that 3E gamers consider 3E bashing are not allowed. Not in every case, but often enough over the course of 4 years to justify the accusation. Anyone who disagrees is either ignorant of the facts or lying to themselves. Oh my god, mixing information! Horrors! It's not like anything ever has to do with anything else! Like I said, if that's how you feel, then why not mix all the forums into one big melting pot and have one giant forum, period? Yeah, that's right, they REFERENCED OOP INFORMATION for *gasp* 3e. And where did they get it? OOP Books! Standard operating proceedure. Milk OOP editions for information or names and use it to sell 3E stuff. That's not news to anyone. Are you saying that Planescape discussion should be banned from every non-Planescape board? You're obviously not hearing what I'm saying, or you just don't care to bother to understand. What I'm saying is that the Greyhawk board should not have a dozen Planescape posts in it. The OOP board should not be flooded with 3E centric posts about converting stuff into 3E. How the hell is a peson who plays OOP versions supposed to answer question like that if he never plays 3E? And if he doesn't play 3E, why would he want to discuss it at all? If it has a mention of OOP, it's OOP-applicable So if I post a message to the 3E general board and it's about nothing except 2E rules, specifically and exclusively 2E rules, and at the end I mention "oh, by the way, Fly is a spell from 2E that's also included in 3E", does that make it applicable? That's absurd. If I want info on Tabaxi lords for 3e, guess where I go? Duh! Of course you go to the OOP board to get that info. But don't come in here asking how to convert the tabaxi into 3E rules, or discuss which feats it should be allowed to take, or talk about how your 3E tabaxi is going to be an "upgrade" from the OOP tabaxi. Good lord, is this REALLY so hard a concept to grasp? :rolleyes: You do know that FR and GH have many cross-references, don't you? The named wizards of the spell lists eat pizza and ice cream together on Earth. You're brilliant! Monopoly also mentions money and riches to be gained. It has a jail, just like Waterdeep does in the Forgotten Realms! Hell it even has a dog miniature, and there are dogs in D&D! In the game of Life, there are wives and children and classes/careers! Wow, what cross-references! I suppose I'd better go start drafting my on-topic Monopoly post for the Forgotten Realms board and my Life post for the 3E General board now! Because like you said, if it has a mention, it's applicable! :rolleyes: What terribly faulty logic! And please, keep your personal attacks to yourself. There were no personal attacks in my post. If there were, trust me, you'd know it. Your arguments do indeed come off as biased. If you're so hypersensitive about that, maybe you shouldn't be discussing it with me, huh? Oh good lord. This is like saying I'm racist because I don't give special treatment to minorities. Another ridiculous and inapplicable stretch of analogy. No one is asking for "special treatment". We're simply asking for the same courtesies given to other forums. In other words, stay on topic, don't allow trolls to flood the board with off topic posts or to get away with posting inflammatory anti-OOP stuff. You obviously were not around 4 years ago during the original edition wars when the WizOs made a ruling that 3E was not to be mentioned, not even MENTIONED by name, here in the OOP forums, while at the same time they allowed OOP bashing to go on unchecked on the 3E boards. You overlook all the times this has happened since then, and the fact that a great many OOP gamers feel this way, and the fact that a great many OOP gamers have abandoned the OOP forum here at WOTC specifically because of that sort of behavior. These are all indisputable facts. Since you don't even realize those FACTS, you're simply not entitled to an opinion. You plainly and clearly don't know what you're talking about, period. That's not a personal attack, that's a statement of fact. I have 77 2e books in my gaming library, and have absolutely no intention of getting rid of them. Hell, I've considered getting a fire proof safe for them. But clearly, I despise OOP books. Grarrr! Where did I say you despise OOP books? Again you show me that you're not comprehending what's being said, or you've simply chosen to twist and warp what was said to fit your misinterpretation of what goes on and has gone on around here for 4 years now. I'm saying that the -exclusive- OOP board should be out of the way, while an INCLUSIVE one is put in public view in its place. Where the hell are you pulling this "exclusive/inclusive" garbage from? I could tell you, but that would probably break the CoC. :smirk: No one ever mentioned "exclusivity" except YOU! Are you talking to yourself now? I certainly never asked for exclusivity. No one else has. You took it upon yourself to misinterpret everything that's being said, you interjected this absurd "exclusivity" concept of your own accord, and now you're trying to obfuscate the issue with it. No one is asking for exclusivity. We're asking for a proper forum where edition comparisons can be done without flooding any particular edition board with off-topic stuff. Here's a clue and I'll send you the bill... The OOP forum description does not say "Come here to convert all your 3E stuff and discuss 3E topics". It exists to discuss OOP stuff. If that simple concept is beyond you, then there's no point in you engaging in this discussion. Your entire "inclusive/exclusive/cross-reference" thing is absurd, does not work, and is not what anyone else is talking about. No one is saying you can't or shouldn't mention 3E in the OOP forum or vice versa. If you haven't understood that at this point, you're beyond help. Are you suggesting that every single thing in OOP is 'unbroken'? I find very little at all that I consider "broken" in AD&D. Period. The only thing that stands out for me is demihuman level limits, and I'm not about to open that can of worms. [Dragonsfoot members breathe a collective sigh of relief at this point!] :smirk: With 3E I have a laundry list of things I consider "broken". And yet again you failed to comprehend what I'm telling you. I never said there were no broken rules in 2E or 1E. I pointed out that when someone asks for advice about gaming on a typical 3E section, and they mention playing an OOP edition, mostly what they get are idiotic lectures about how everything under the sun in OOP editions is broken, and how they should "upgrade" to 3E if they're smart. And that does and has happened quite often. Even the "friendliest" of such posts always entail a little lecture about how much better 3E is at everything. :rolleyes: It's obvious that the discussion is not clicking for you, you simply refuse to understand or comprehend what's being said. It's plain to see that you are unaware of certain undeniable facts in the argument. Therefore, I consider your arguments irrelevant and I don't consider you entitled to an opinion on the matter. End of discussion. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 83] Author : q'afuu Date : 05-20-04 08:05 AM Originally posted by Halaster-Blackcloak How the hell is a peson who plays OOP versions supposed to answer question like that if he never plays 3E? And if he doesn't play 3E, why would he want to discuss it at all? If he doesn't play 3E, why would you find him anywhere but in OoP to begin with? Incenjucar needs info on older edition stuff (monsters, spells, whatever)- if he gets it, he can do the conversion himself, since he knows what works in whatever edition he plays and for whatever kind of campaign he runs. But as long as he doesn't have the basic info, he can't do anything. Prime place to find OoP info? The OoP board. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 84] Author : Incenjucar Date : 05-20-04 08:28 AM Originally posted by Halaster-Blackcloak Icenjucar wrote: Doesn't matter who said it or how long they stayed on the boards. The fact is that OOP bashing is generally overlooked and allowed compared to 3E bashing. 1) They're trying to sell 3e. They can't make any money off of OOP stuff. 3e bashing -matters- more than OOP bashing does. This is place exists due to the desire for money. 2) This is one single forum out of dozens. The WizOs have to deal with flame wars en masse. I realize that doesn't help you, but facts are facts. One squeaky wheel versus dozens. I'm sure another low-moderation board can be found. 3) Trolls are everywhere. We all have to deal with them, even on the 3e boards. 4) Saying "3e is more flexible", etc, is an opinion. It is not edition-bashing. If someone says "2e is for suckers", then report them, repeatedly if neccissary. Email Dox on it. You may not -see- the result, but it's WotC policy to hand-slap behind the scenes, not in front of public view. That's a terrible analogy. I still use Windows 98. When the "upgrade" of Windows 2000 came out, I did not "upgrade", and most people consider Windows 2000 to be the worst version. Windows 98 does everything I want it to do. Not a single time have I tried to do something new on my computer and have it fail because I didn't "upgrade". There are also people who like older versions of Outlook Express or Internet Explorer over newer editions. You've just proven that it's a fine analogy. It's what the company is selling now, and it's what the company is calling an upgrade. Some people still prefer the older versions, despite, and nobody is wrong. I'm sorry if that's difficult for you to figure out, obviously my poor comprehension is infectious. Beyond all that, the analogy also doesn't apply because there's not enough objective "improvements" to 3E to make the analogy work. With Windows you can measure faster speed, more stability, more flexibility, etc. Doesn't work with D&D. Many of us find that we can do anything we could possibly want with OOP editions. I have never yet run into a problem using those editions. "Upgrading" to 3E would not give me a single objective advantage over staying with OOP editions. It's all subjective. It's different. Improvement is entirely subjective. Windows XP is better for me than Windows 95 because I find it easier to do certain tasks. Windows 95 is better for people who focus on other tasks that Win 95 is better with. Nobody is right or wrong. 3e is better for me because, before 3e was even a rumor, I was trying to figure out how to give stat blocks to monsters, was using the feat-like NWPs from Ninja's Hanbook and 2.5, and because almost nobody played humans in any of our games because we only played lower-level games. I still get a GREAT deal of use out of my 2e collection, but the flavor works for ANY edition. Older editions are better for other people because of a great variety of reasons. That's fine. Nobody is right or wrong. But again, that comprehension problem I have is like a virus. And yet it's only tolerated here when the elitism is a 3E poster thumbing his nose at OOP versions. Glad you pointed that out. Anyone thumbing their nose at anyone for their preferences is a twit. Anyone saying "I prefer this, not that", is just opinioned. Heaven forbid. I despise the feel of 0e, for the limited time I played it. I loved 2e. No thumbnoses needed to express that. You're preaching to the choir, son. I've already said all that. It's irrelevant. What it boils down to is not what someone thinks, but rather the fact that the administration of rules is not even handed here. The fact that posts which OOP gamers consider OOP bashing are allowed and yet posts that 3E gamers consider 3E bashing are not allowed. Not in every case, but often enough over the course of 4 years to justify the accusation. Anyone who disagrees is either ignorant of the facts or lying to themselves. Every time there is a problem, email the admin. It's not that hard, and eventually they'll get to fed up with your spam to ignore it. I've noticed a tendancy for people on this board (who are now complaining on the meta as well) to not actually -complain- to anyone but each other. It's YOUR job, as a poster, to report a thread. Like I said, if that's how you feel, then why not mix all the forums into one big melting pot and have one giant forum, period? So long as you kept the mechanics seperate, I wouldn't care. Mechanics are the only issue that editions should be seperated for, simply because it gets confusing otherwise. I hang out on the Planescape board for crying out loud. Standard operating proceedure. Milk OOP editions for information or names and use it to sell 3E stuff. That's not news to anyone. Good. That IS the real point of this board. It's not a club house for 'old school'-only posting, but there IS such a place. Ask Diaglo to lead the way. The admin there would likely lynch you for saying the phrase "Feat of strength", if rumors be true. If. You're obviously not hearing what I'm saying, or you just don't care to bother to understand. What I'm saying is that the Greyhawk board should not have a dozen Planescape posts in it. I disagree. If the posts are akin to: "Are there any portals to Sigil from Greyhawk?" "Do any wizards from Greyhawk Planewalk?" "Is there any mention of Planescape material in Greyhawk?" "Do any of you use Planescape in your Greyhawk campaign?" "Is there any hint about the Lady of Pain in Greyhawk?" What can I say, I'm an idiot. The OOP board should not be flooded with 3E centric posts about converting stuff into 3E. How the hell is a peson who plays OOP versions supposed to answer question like that if he never plays 3E? And if he doesn't play 3E, why would he want to discuss it at all? Then you kindly say, "this is the wrong place to ask" and bug a moderator to move the thread. You also never ever ever reply to the thread again, lest you bump it. Is that hard? So if I post a message to the 3E general board and it's about nothing except 2E rules, specifically and exclusively 2E rules, and at the end I mention "oh, by the way, Fly is a spell from 2E that's also included in 3E", does that make it applicable? That's absurd. Depends on what you were asking. If you were trying to compare the spell between editions, that's all good and fine by me. Duh! Of course you go to the OOP board to get that info. But don't come in here asking how to convert the tabaxi into 3E rules, or discuss which feats it should be allowed to take, or talk about how your 3E tabaxi is going to be an "upgrade" from the OOP tabaxi. Good lord, is this REALLY so hard a concept to grasp? So, if I asked, "Do you think it would make more sense for the average tabaxi to focus on getting good Initiative, or to dodge attacks from single combatants? See, I'm trying to convert them to 3e, and I need to choose feats for them -- they're these special abilities everything gets. So what do you think?" Then this would be a horrible violation of the sanctity of OOP? And forget the upgrade stuff. You know it isn't true, I know it isn't true, screw what anyone else thinks. I realize I'm just a moron who doesn't have a healthy hate going, but I can't help that. You're brilliant! Monopoly also mentions money and riches to be gained. It has a jail, just like Waterdeep does in the Forgotten Realms! Hell it even has a dog miniature, and there are dogs in D&D! In the game of Life, there are wives and children and classes/careers! Wow, what cross-references! I suppose I'd better go start drafting my on-topic Monopoly post for the Forgotten Realms board and my Life post for the 3E General board now! Because like you said, if it has a mention, it's applicable! :rolleyes: Considering there's D&D Clue, your remarks are especially funny. If someone wanted to make a FR Monopoly-style board game, I say go for it. Being a Chosen of Mystra could be the goal, and gathering spell scrolls could replace fake money. Rolling d20s to collect 2 levels of spells would be fun. What terribly faulty logic! What can I say, as a hybrid (multiple racial backgrounds, if that's hard to understand) who dates hybrid bi gals from across the globe, with differing views on several heavy issues (I like hunting and eating bunnies, she's considered going vegetarian, she hates politics, I hate politicians...), who likes to merge Eastern and Western concepts in to my writing and drawing styles, and who likes to mix egg rolls with burgers, I'm just not seeing mixing things as a bad thing. There were no personal attacks in my post. If there were, trust me, you'd know it. Your arguments do indeed come off as biased. If you're so hypersensitive about that, maybe you shouldn't be discussing it with me, huh? "If your attitude is not biased in the extreme, I don't know what is." I consider this an insult, especially since it's rather groundless. I enjoy multiple editions, I advocate people playing what they want, and find getting on people's cases for mentioning something you don't play to be silly. Biased would be if I hated OOP materials and wanted them all destroyed because 3e was all spiffy keen or something. Another ridiculous and inapplicable stretch of analogy. No one is asking for "special treatment". We're simply asking for the same courtesies given to other forums. In other words, stay on topic, don't allow trolls to flood the board with off topic posts or to get away with posting inflammatory anti-OOP stuff. You obviously were not around 4 years ago during the original edition wars when the WizOs made a ruling that 3E was not to be mentioned, not even MENTIONED by name, here in the OOP forums, while at the same time they allowed OOP bashing to go on unchecked on the 3E boards. You overlook all the times this has happened since then, and the fact that a great many OOP gamers feel this way, and the fact that a great many OOP gamers have abandoned the OOP forum here at WOTC specifically because of that sort of behavior. These are all indisputable facts. If this was their official policy back then, then they made a bad ruling. However, as a ruling, it should have been enforced and a warning to other topics should have been made. If this is indeed the case, I agree that things were handled in a less than perfect manner. I also think that there should be a place for people who aren't against one edition or another to gather and discuss, which is what more or less happened on its own. Since you don't even realize those FACTS, you're simply not entitled to an opinion. You plainly and clearly don't know what you're talking about, period. That's not a personal attack, that's a statement of fact. I made no statement such as "They never made a ruling" nor "This was always intended for 3e use". No more shrooms for you. Where did I say you despise OOP books? Again you show me that you're not comprehending what's being said, or you've simply chosen to twist and warp what was said to fit your misinterpretation of what goes on and has gone on around here for 4 years now. What the bloody fricking hell is OOP if not the Books? What, the character sheets? The compendiums? The cards? Do you know what OOP stands for? You said I HATED OOP. How the heck do I not comprehend that? I don't give a damn about the last four years. I only care about the present and the future. I'm sorry if that eludes you. Where the hell are you pulling this "exclusive/inclusive" garbage from? I could tell you, but that would probably break the CoC. :smirk: Have you ever heard of the word "Only"? It's an excluding term. No one ever mentioned "exclusivity" except YOU! Are you talking to yourself now? I certainly never asked for exclusivity. No one else has. I'm sorry, did they change the meaning of "only" since yesterday? You took it upon yourself to misinterpret everything that's being said, you interjected this absurd "exclusivity" concept of your own accord, and now you're trying to obfuscate the issue with it. No one is asking for exclusivity. Yes they are, and yes I am. There's a lot of OOP-users/lovers who like to mix and match with 3e, and there's a lot of OOP-users/lovers who wish WotC would burn in hell for creating D&D, or TSR for creating AD&D. I say, take the "haters" and put them somewhere else, leaving a nice place for a non-exclusive OOP board to flourish. We're asking for a proper forum where edition comparisons can be done without flooding any particular edition board with off-topic stuff. Yes. One board for Edition-Inclusive discussions, another for OOP-Only Discussions, which is, gasp, exclusive. Here's a clue and I'll send you the bill... You want a tip? The OOP forum description does not say "Come here to convert all your 3E stuff and discuss 3E topics". It exists to discuss OOP stuff. If that simple concept is beyond you, then there's no point in you engaging in this discussion. Thus the need for a board to discuss both without seperation. Your entire "inclusive/exclusive/cross-reference" thing is absurd, does not work, and is not what anyone else is talking about. ...Okay, so you have split personalities. You say the word "not", and suddenly "Not" is not an excluding word? What language are you using? No one is saying you can't or shouldn't mention 3E in the OOP forum or vice versa. If you haven't understood that at this point, you're beyond help. From what I'm seeing, many people are saying they don't want to hear anything about 3e in OOP forums. I find very little at all that I consider "broken" in AD&D. Period. The only thing that stands out for me is demihuman level limits, and I'm not about to open that can of worms. No abusable spells? No classes weaker than others? No kits that are screwed up? No monsters given the wrong XP value? [Dragonsfoot members breathe a collective sigh of relief at this point!] :smirk: With 3E I have a laundry list of things I consider "broken". And yet again you failed to comprehend what I'm telling you. I never said there were no broken rules in 2E or 1E. I pointed out that when someone asks for advice about gaming on a typical 3E section, and they mention playing an OOP edition, mostly what they get are idiotic lectures about how everything under the sun in OOP editions is broken, and how they should "upgrade" to 3E if they're smart. And that does and has happened quite often. Then they know as much about OOP as the person who said nobody plays humans knows about 3e. Big fricking whup. Trolls are everywhere. People who have no information are everywhere. Even the "friendliest" of such posts always entail a little lecture about how much better 3E is at everything. I'm sorry, but this sounds like whining. I complained less about insults like this when kids called me fat as a youngster, and -they- got in my face and got violent about it. :rolleyes: It's obvious that the discussion is not clicking for you, you simply refuse to understand or comprehend what's being said. It's plain to see that you are unaware of certain undeniable facts in the argument. You just seem to think that I should give a damn about your feelings about the past four years is all. Sorry, but I don't care about your harrowing years as an OOP underdog. I care about the future. Cry me a river, kid. Therefore, I consider your arguments irrelevant and I don't consider you entitled to an opinion on the matter. End of discussion. At least you didn't call me a doody-head. I appreciate it. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 85] Author : Halaster-Blackcloak Date : 05-20-04 08:36 AM Another one who can't seem to comprehend the flow of a simple argument. :rolleyes: Really people, try thinking before you post, huh? Q'afuu wrote: If he doesn't play 3E, why would you find him anywhere but in OoP to begin with? I don't know. You tell me. And while you're at it, can you tell me what the hell you're talking about in the first place? What you just said makes no sense at all, it does not relate to anything you're responding to. For some bizarre reason, you quoted only 3/4ths of my paragraph in that quote. Here's what I said: "The OOP board should not be flooded with 3E centric posts about converting stuff into 3E. How the hell is a person who plays OOP versions supposed to answer a question like that if he never plays 3E? And if he doesn't play 3E, why would he want to discuss it at all?" At what point specifically did this confuse you? It's plain as day. The OOP board should not be inundated with 3E-centric posts dealing with converting stuff to 3E because OOP gamers don't by definition tend to play 3E, therefore they cannot comment on how to convert OOP stuff into 3E stuff. They don't have 3E books, they don't know 3E rules, they don't care to talk about 3E. What part of that is so difficult to grasp? Really, I want to know. Because you seem totally mystified by it. Incenjucar needs info on older edition stuff (monsters, spells, whatever)- if he gets it, he can do the conversion himself, since he knows what works in whatever edition he plays and for whatever kind of campaign he runs. But as long as he doesn't have the basic info, he can't do anything. Prime place to find OoP info? The OoP board. No ****? Are you sure about that? Why in Orcus's foul name would you be stating the obvious to me, repeating what I've already spelled out? Of course he's going to come to the OOP board to ask about a creature that only exists in OOP editions. Was there ever any question or confusion over that point (besides your own)? I'm completely mystified as to how this simple issue can become so confusing for some of you. We've already gone over this. Yes, someone who wants to hear about OOP monsters would ask about them on the OOP board, because they're OOP monsters and someone with a 3E MM does not have that info available. :rolleyes: On the other hand, discussing what feats to give him, how to turn him into a 3E monster, what sort of 3E monster template it would use, etc is not appropriate to discuss on the OOP boards because those are 3E topics and belong on the 3E boards. Meditate on this before trying to discuss it again. It's not a koan, it's simple common sense. :rolleyes: -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 86] Author : q'afuu Date : 05-20-04 08:50 AM Originally posted by Halaster-Blackcloak The OOP board should not be inundated with 3E-centric posts dealing with converting stuff to 3E because OOP gamers don't by definition tend to play 3E, therefore they cannot comment on how to convert OOP stuff into 3E stuff. They don't have 3E books, they don't know 3E rules, they don't care to talk about 3E. I can't draw you a picture, so I'm gonna have to try words again. Tell me where I'm losing you, ok? part A: People who want to convert OoP stuff to another edition, need to know about that OoP stuff. If they don't know enough about said stuff, they have to ask. They have to ask someone who does know. The OoP board is visited mostly be people who do know OoP stuff. Hence, the OoP board is a good place to ask about OoP stuff someone wants to convert. Part B: The how of a conversion doesn't matter, as long as you don't have anything to convert. Hence, it's perfectly reasonable to ask about the what before and even without asking about the how. Hence, there's no problem if you ask people that don't know about the how about the what. Hence, OoP posters can be asked about the what involved in a conversion. Part C: As long as you don't have anything to convert, you can't convert it. Hence, if you ask people who know how to convert something how to convert X, they'll ask what X is. If you don't know what X is, they can't help you. From here, go back to A. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 87] Author : Halaster-Blackcloak Date : 05-20-04 10:00 AM Like a moth drawn to the flames, some mornings I just can't manage to pull myself away. It's sorta like having to watch a car wreck in slow motion. :rolleyes: Icenjucar wrote: 1) They're trying to sell 3e. They can't make any money off of OOP stuff. 3e bashing -matters- more than OOP bashing does. This is place exists due to the desire for money. You're wrong several times over. First of all, they can and DO make money off OOP stuff. Perhaps you're blissfully oblivious to the fact that WOTC has been, for years, selling ESD reprints of a great many OOP products? That constitutes making money off OOP stuff. Yet another example of you not having a clue what you're talking about, and why you're not entitled to an opinion. Secondly, the CoC does not state: "Edition bashing is not allowed unless it's OOP bashing which is OK". The WizOs claim the rule applies all around, so it should be enforced all around, fairly. If they have a problem with that, they need to change the CoC to reflect my quote above. 2) This is one single forum out of dozens. The WizOs have to deal with flame wars en masse. I realize that doesn't help you, but facts are facts. One squeaky wheel versus dozens. I'm sure another low-moderation board can be found. Again you pose an irrelevant argument. And again you're wrong. WizOs don't deal with "flame wars en masse". Show me any three forums right now this very minute where a flame war is brewing, from the dozens and dozens of forums they have. The site is not engulfed in flame wars. Secondly, the argument that this is one forum out of many does not justify inappropriate and biased actions towards that particular forum. Finally, your condescending attitude that causes you to dismissively say "find another forum" is at the core of the problem. It's people like you and your attitude towards OOP gamers that causes the very problem we want fixed. 3) Trolls are everywhere. We all have to deal with them, even on the 3e boards. And we've gone over this twice now, although obvioiusly you don't realize that. Yes, trolls go to all boards, but what we're complaining about is that trolls who cause problems in the OOP boards tend to get away with it while trolls on other forums are dealt with much more efficiently. And since you obviously have no clue about the facts of the matter, I will explain to you that back in the original edition wars, a handful of fanatical 3E players invaded the OOP boards and...now listen to what I'm about to say and let it sink in so that you truly grasp the importance of what I'm about to say... THE 3E TROLLS PUBLICLY ADMITTED TO COMING TO THE OOP BOARDS TO START FIGHTS AND THE WIZOS REFUSED TO DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT! Yes, read that again, then a third time, then meditate on it. Some 3E trolls came into the OOP boards, posted public messages literally saying that they were there simply to fight over editions, and the WizOs clearly saw the posts, some OOP gamers both publicly and privately complained to the WizOs about it, and yet those 3E trolls were allowed to continue their trolling and inflammatory off topic posts for MONTHS. When the WizOs finally stepped up to the plate to do something, they BANNED ALL MENTION OF 3E ON THE OOP BOARD. Let that sink in as well. In that decision, OOP gamers were not allowed to say so much as "I tried 3E, did not like it, and came back to OOP games". At the same time, and this is an observed fact, plenty of OOP bashing was going on over at the 3E forums. So to clarify that for you, 3E gamers invaded the OOP boards, started flaming OOP gamers, ADMITTED PUBLICLY to trolling, the WizOs reacted by banning all mention of 3E by OOP gamers in the OOP board, but allowed those same 3E trolls to bash OOP stuff in the 3E boards. And even that biased moderation was not taken until MONTHS after the 3E trolls instigated the war. Ever since then, there has been preferential treatment and bias against OOP gamers and their one lone forum here. 4) Saying "3e is more flexible", etc, is an opinion. It is not edition-bashing. If someone says "2e is for suckers", then report them, repeatedly if neccissary. Email Dox on it. You may not -see- the result, but it's WotC policy to hand-slap behind the scenes, not in front of public view. Saying "3E is more flexible" is not stating a fact. It's stating an opinion. And no, it technically is not edition bashing. HOWEVER...and please try to comprehend this, because it is vital to the argument...when a handful of 3E gamers attack an OOP gamer and state erroneous non-facts about OOP versions, such as "OOP editions are not flexible" or "OOP games are too limited" followed by "what you need to do is upgrade to 3E because OOP games are broken", then THAT is edition bashing, and that is exactly what has always gone on. It may not be as rampant and wide spread now as it was 4 years ago, but it's still there. You've just proven that it's a fine analogy. It's what the company is selling now, and it's what the company is calling an upgrade. They can call it anything they like. An "upgrade" implies a betterment in some way. It's not an objective fact that 3E is a betterment in any sense of the word. Plenty of OOP gamers feel the exact opposite, that if anything, it's a downgrade. I'm sorry if that's difficult for you to figure out, obviously my poor comprehension is infectious. It's not infectious. I'm not the least bit confused on the issue. It's different. Improvement is entirely subjective. Wrong. It can be subjective. A car that breaks down every 10 miles it drives can objectively be said to be a piece of junk, compared to one that can go 100,000 miles without breaking down. I despise the feel of 0e What the hell is 0E? There's no such thing. A ZERO EDITION? :rolleyes: What the hell are you talking about? Every time there is a problem, email the admin. It's not that hard, and eventually they'll get to fed up with your spam to ignore it. I've noticed a tendancy for people on this board (who are now complaining on the meta as well) to not actually -complain- to anyone but each other. It's YOUR job, as a poster, to report a thread. It's really getting tedious having to repeat things to you and watch it go in one ear and out the other, do you realize that? This is precisely why your opinion is invalid and irrelevant and why you are not entitled to one and should stifle yourself. In several places several of us have mentioned that we've emailed various WizOs about problems, and THAT MADE NO DIFFERENCE! NOTHING WAS DONE, NO ACTION TAKEN! The members WERE doing their job, the WizOs were NOT. See why I say you're utterly clueless? Go back up to the part where I discussed the original invasion of 3E trolls, read it 16 times again, meditate on it, and pray for understanding and with any luck I won't have to explain this to you a 50th time. So long as you kept the mechanics seperate, I wouldn't care. How the hell do you mix all the forums into one forum and then separate it by mechanics? Have you lost your mind? That's not an attack, I am seriously wanting to know! I hang out on the Planescape board for crying out loud. And what does this have to do with the issue at hand? I disagree. If the posts are akin to:"Are there any portals to Sigil from Greyhawk?" {Snip a hundred other examples} You're missing the point, as usual. If most of the posts in Greyhawk are about Planescape, whether it relates to Greyhawk or not in some way, the Greyhawk board has been diluted into a non-Greyhawk board. Common sense. Where would printed material dealing with where portals to Sigil from Greyhawk be found? IN PLANESCAPE MATERIALS! DUH!! To simplify this for you (though I doubt that will help at this point), topics should be posted in the most appropriate forum or the forum where you're most likely to get the answer. So using your examples, questions about Greyhawk wizards seen in Sigil, questions about where Greyhawk portals to Sigil appear, questions about the Lady of Pain...those questions will tend to be found in Planescape books, not Greyhawk books. Hence, it should be posted in Planescape forums. Likewise, conversion tables for 3E characters, information on feats and the feel and rules of 3E do not appear in the 2E PHB, so those topics do not belong in the OOP forum. What can I say, I'm an idiot. I hope you weren't looking for an argument from me on that one. :smirk: Then you kindly say, "this is the wrong place to ask" and bug a moderator to move the thread. You also never ever ever reply to the thread again, lest you bump it. I'll leave that to the reading comprehension coach to help you with. We've covered that several times over already. Depends on what you were asking. If you were trying to compare the spell between editions, that's all good and fine by me. For one thing, what's good and fine by you is irrelevant (thank god!), because you're not entitled to an opinion. Second, that's not what you said. You're changing your argument as you go along. All you said was that "If it has a mention of OOP, it's OOP-applicable". So stop trying to convolute the issue. You claimed that a mere mention of OOP makes it applicable, therefore your claim is that the mere mention of the spell "Fly" is applicable and makes the thread on-topic. It's a totally absurd argument, so just admit it and stop trying to obfuscate the fact that you're just dead wrong. So, if I asked, "Do you think it would make more sense for the average tabaxi to focus on getting good Initiative, or to dodge attacks from single combatants? See, I'm trying to convert them to 3e, and I need to choose feats for them -- they're these special abilities everything gets. So what do you think?" Then this would be a horrible violation of the sanctity of OOP? There's no need for the mention of 3E in that example whatsoever. No one needs to know about feats or 3E in order to answer the question about whether they should get better intitiative or better "dodging skills". If someone wanted to make a FR Monopoly-style board game, I say go for it. Being a Chosen of Mystra could be the goal, and gathering spell scrolls could replace fake money. Rolling d20s to collect 2 levels of spells would be fun. And still again, this has nothing to do with what's being discussed. You're simply trying to obfuscate the issue. If and when Monopoly makes a D&D version, then it might be discussed in the general board. However, our example has nothing to do with that and you know it. What can I say, as a hybrid (multiple racial backgrounds, if that's hard to understand) who dates hybrid bi gals from across the globe, with differing views on several heavy issues (I like hunting and eating bunnies, she's considered going vegetarian, she hates politics, I hate politicians...), who likes to merge Eastern and Western concepts in to my writing and drawing styles, and who likes to mix egg rolls with burgers, I'm just not seeing mixing things as a bad thing. That explains a lot. Not in a good way either. :rolleyes: "If your attitude is not biased in the extreme, I don't know what is." I consider this an insult, especially since it's rather groundless. I enjoy multiple editions, I advocate people playing what they want, and find getting on people's cases for mentioning something you don't play to be silly. It's not an insult because you are indeed displaying a dismissive and preferential attitude towards OOP gamers..."you can find another bulletin board to post on" or "hide the OOP board somewhere far away from the other boards", things to that effect, prove bias. The fact that you're still chanting the stupid mantra about OOP gamers getting on people's cases for the mere mention of something we don't play proves that you're simply totally clueless and uncomprehending towards the issue. There are no other polite yet accurate ways to say that. Biased would be if I hated OOP materials and wanted them all destroyed because 3e was all spiffy keen or something. Wrong again. Bias does not imply hatred or discussion, merely preferential attitude towards a particular issue. Perhaps some dictionary work with that comprehension coach would clear things up for you. If this was their official policy back then, then they made a bad ruling. It was bad then, and they continue to make bad rulings. If this is indeed the case, I agree that things were handled in a less than perfect manner. "If indeed that was the case"? It was indeed the case. Anyone who was here and is not biased can relate to that. Hell, I may still have copies of some of those posts! A "less than perfect manner"? Are you crazy? What sort of minimalist BS is that? It was a terrible, utterly biased, completely out of line ruling. "Less than perfect"? Yeah, and Hitler was "less than a saint". :rolleyes: I also think that there should be a place for people who aren't against one edition or another to gather and discuss, which is what more or less happened on its own. No, there is not. That's what we're arguing for the creation of. Is your real life name Bizarro, as in the Superman villain? What the bloody fricking hell is OOP if not the Books? What, the character sheets? The compendiums? The cards? Do you know what OOP stands for? You said I HATED OOP. How the heck do I not comprehend that? The books and the editions are two different things. For example, I know more than a few people who like 3E as a game system but hate the books, ie the binding, the slick paper, the type print, font size, etc. I don't give a damn about the last four years. I only care about the present and the future. I'm sorry if that eludes you. Nothing eludes me. You've obviously forgotten the adage that those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it. You can't ignore the history of these boards, because what's going on now is a direct continuation of what went on 4 years ago. If you don't give a damn what happened in the last 4 years, then you can't give a damn about what's going on now, because they're one and the same thing. If you have a tumor in your head and four years later it's still there only it's changed shape or shed a few cells, it's the samed damn tumor, the disease was never cured. Have you ever heard of the word "Only"? It's an excluding term. No one said "only" OOP stuff. I said the OOP forum is for discussing OOP stuff and should not be inundated with 3E stuff and other off topic stuff. That does not mean no mention of 3E, it is therefore not excluding. Yes they are, and yes I am. There's a lot of OOP-users/lovers who like to mix and match with 3e, and there's a lot of OOP-users/lovers who wish WotC would burn in hell for creating D&D, or TSR for creating AD&D. I say, take the "haters" and put them somewhere else, leaving a nice place for a non-exclusive OOP board to flourish. Which takes us right back to your absurd argument which entails mixing every board into one big forum which is obviously just stupid. When people want to find info on OOP stuff, they should not come to the OOP boards and find tons of 3E stuff posted and have to dig through a bunch of off topic stuff to find relevant posts. DUH! :rolleyes: Your argument is invalid. Yes. One board for Edition-Inclusive discussions, another for OOP-Only Discussions, which is, gasp, exclusive. Again, try to understand the absurdity of your "logic". You're *****ing and moaning about an OOP board that merely wants to stay on topic, but you don't apply the same complaint to other boards. In other words, you don't have a problem with any board being "exclusive" except when it comes to OOP. Obviously it's too much for you to comprehend, the idea of why there are different forums, why they're separated, why the rules say to stay on topic, etc. The ultimate outcome of your rather bizarre outlook is one giant messy melting pot where all the forums are lumped into one place. It isn't workable nor desireable. Thus the need for a board to discuss both without seperation. DUH! Sweet asshairs of Orcus man, that's what I'm trying to pound through your thick skull! :eek: We're asking for a comparison forum where you can discuss both without polluting the edition specific forums. I'm not going to ask you, I'm going to tell you...you have indeed lost your mind. From what I'm seeing, many people are saying they don't want to hear anything about 3e in OOP forums. And bottom line, what exactly is wrong with that? People who come to an OOP forum expect and hope to see OOP topics, not 3E topics. The forum is designated for the discussion of OOP stuff, not 3E. So why do you have such an unbelievable problem with that? No abusable spells? No classes weaker than others? No kits that are screwed up? No monsters given the wrong XP value? No. And that's my final answer. You haven't earned a more detailed reply. Then they know as much about OOP as the person who said nobody plays humans knows about 3e. Big fricking whup. WOOSH! Like the space shuttle, right over your head. You still don't get it. The problem is that the anti-OOP bias is allowed to a much greater degree than any anti-3E bias. You just seem to think that I should give a damn about your feelings about the past four years is all. Sorry, but I don't care about your harrowing years as an OOP underdog. I care about the future. Cry me a river, kid. There you go again showing why you're not entitled to an opinion. You fail to see that the problem of 4 years ago is the same problem we have today. Sad, really sad. At least you didn't call me a doody-head. I would if the CoC allowed it. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 88] Author : Halaster-Blackcloak Date : 05-20-04 10:21 AM Q'aafu, you're babbling inanities. Do you even understand what YOU'RE saying? :rolleyes: I'll walk you through it. Again. :rolleyes: People who want to convert OoP stuff to another edition, need to know about that OoP stuff. If they don't know enough about said stuff, they have to ask. They have to ask someone who does know.The OoP board is visited mostly be people who do know OoP stuff.Hence, the OoP board is a good place to ask about OoP stuff someone wants to convert. Please point out anywhere that I have disagreed with or contradicted this. I'd give Paradox my finest OOP books if he'd just allow me to sling around the word "moron" at this point, but I know he won't. Yes, if someone wants to know about OOP stuff, they ask in the OOP forum. The how of a conversion doesn't matter, as long as you don't have anything to convert. Did you go to school for babble and obfuscation or is it an inherent talent? The "how" of a conversion from OOP to 3E should not be discussed on an OOP forum. Hence, there's no problem if you ask people that don't know about the how about the what. And a woo-hoo-hoo and a cockledoodledoo! :rolleyes: Could you be any less convoluted? No, there is no problem if you ask people who don't know about the how (ie how to convert an OOP monster to 3E) about the what (what is the OOP monster). Hence, OoP posters can be asked about the what involved in a conversion. Yes, I've never argued that. I have no problem with a 3E gamer coming in here and asking "what the hell is a tabaxi and what does it do?". Why does this confuse you, and why are you trying to convolute it? As long as you don't have anything to convert, you can't convert it. Hence, if you ask people who know how to convert something how to convert X, they'll ask what X is. If you don't know what X is, they can't help you. DUH! Good lord, there needs to be an IQ test to weed out people like you. I'm totally serious. I'll translate that last bit of gobbledygoop you posted. As long as the 3E gamer who wants to convert an OOP monster to a 3E monster has no information about the OOP monster, he cannot convert it. Therefore, if he posts to the 3E board asking about how to convert it, they cannot since they do not know what the OOP monster is or does. If the 3E gamer cannot tell the 3E board what the OOP monster is or does, they cannot help him. Therefore the 3E gamer goes to the OOP board, asks what the OOP monster is and does, gets that information, and takes it back to the 3E board, where someone can then tell him what it would take to convert it into a 3E monster. Why in the Nine Hells are you trying to convolute and obfuscate the issue and where have I disagreed with this? You've done a dance of babble to get back to the very same thing I said. Yes, the 3E gamer may need to come to the OOP board to find out what the hell a tabaxi is so that the 3E people can help him convert it to 3E. But the point that seems to have leaked out of your brain along with the mental diarrhea you just spewed is the fact that asking about how to convert an OOP monster into a 3E monster is not an appropriate nor on-topic question to post to the OOP forum. Asking about what it is and what it does in OOP EDITIONS is fine, no one has a problem with that. It's like talking to mold, only mold would comprehend it better. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 89] Author : Strephon Alkhalikoi Date : 05-20-04 10:23 AM Thread Title : Monster Stat Blocks Originally posted by Incenjucar 1) They're trying to sell 3e. They can't make any money off of OOP stuff. 3e bashing -matters- more than OOP bashing does. This is place exists due to the desire for money. 2) This is one single forum out of dozens. The WizOs have to deal with flame wars en masse. I realize that doesn't help you, but facts are facts. One squeaky wheel versus dozens. I'm sure another low-moderation board can be found. 3) Trolls are everywhere. We all have to deal with them, even on the 3e boards. 4) Saying "3e is more flexible", etc, is an opinion. It is not edition-bashing. If someone says "2e is for suckers", then report them, repeatedly if neccissary. Email Dox on it. You may not -see- the result, but it's WotC policy to hand-slap behind the scenes, not in front of public view. Ok, I agree with point 1 here. This place IS in the business to make money. The only way it can do that is to do everything possible to stifle dissenting points of view, in order to promote d20 Fantasy as the "one true way". As to point 2, true. However, this one board only serves as a microcosm of standard operating procedure here. In answer to point 3, just who are the trolls? It's a known fact that mods here have non-mod identities. Who do you think is doing most of the trolling, and why? Sure there are others who troll, but on this board, where OOP suffers from malicious neglect and censored communication, real trolls are outnumbered by mods masquerading as average posters. Point 4 is useless since emailing a moderator does nothing, unless of course you happen to be a d20 Fantasy player. Originally posted by Incenjucar 3e is better for me because, before 3e was even a rumor, I was trying to figure out how to give stat blocks to monsters, was using the feat-like NWPs from Ninja's Hanbook and 2.5, and because almost nobody played humans in any of our games because we only played lower-level games. I still get a GREAT deal of use out of my 2e collection, but the flavor works for ANY edition. Older editions are better for other people because of a great variety of reasons. That's fine. Nobody is right or wrong. But again, that comprehension problem I have is like a virus. RuneQuest had stat blocks for all its creatures, and this was in 1978, 20 years before d20 Fantasy reared its ugly head. You could have used that to figure out how to give stat blocks to monsters instead of waiting for d20 Fantasy. People seem to forget that there were other games besides AD&D out there. Yes, nobody is right or wrong, so how many people will come down on me when I tell them that d20 Fantasy doesn't have a reason for existing, except to milk the unsuspecting for all they're worth? Pre d20 Fantasy AD&D wasn't broken to begin with, so why fix it? All we're seeing here in d20 Fantasy is somebody's house rules, seemingly a **** poor blend of RuneQuest and AD&D. The people who did the disservice of releasing d20 Fantasy all need to be the first against the wall when the revolution comes. Originally posted by Incenjucar Every time there is a problem, email the admin. It's not that hard, and eventually they'll get to fed up with your spam to ignore it. I've noticed a tendancy for people on this board (who are now complaining on the meta as well) to not actually -complain- to anyone but each other. It's YOUR job, as a poster, to report a thread. Except the moderators don't do anything, and the admin is practically non-existent. Originally posted by Incenjucar Then you kindly say, "this is the wrong place to ask" and bug a moderator to move the thread. You also never ever ever reply to the thread again, lest you bump it. Is that hard? See above. Originally posted by Incenjucar From what I'm seeing, many people are saying they don't want to hear anything about 3e in OOP forums. I don't. d20 Fantasy, any revision, has NO place on the OOP forum. And it's as simple as that. You want to talk about d20 Fantasy, go to every OTHER board. If you want to ask how to convert monster x to d20 Fantasy, go get your 23-page non-backwards compatible conversion book and do it. The answers are all around you, without needing to pollute an OOP forum with IP discussion. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 90] Author : Halaster-Blackcloak Date : 05-20-04 10:33 AM And on that note, I'm not going to discuss this with either of you anymore. It was well and fine to waste time typing all this in reply to you this morning because my head was glued to the phone for hours, mostly on hold while trying to resolve some email issues with my ISP and some call issues with my cellular company. So I had nothing better to do at the time, being stuck on hold. Now though, I have the rest of the day free and will not waste time trying to pound common sense into bodies that are not capable of comprehending common sense. To hell with weeding out 3E posts and off topic posts at this point, let's just weed out the stupid people. That'd be an even better action than starting a comparison board. :rolleyes: -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 91] Author : Halaster-Blackcloak Date : 05-20-04 10:37 AM Er...I wasn't referring to you, Strephon Alkhalikoi, in my last post. I was talking about Qafuu and Icenjucar. ;) Overlapping posts. You obviously know what you're talking about. ;) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 92] Author : q'afuu Date : 05-20-04 10:45 AM Originally posted by Halaster-Blackcloak But the point that seems to have leaked out of your brain along with the mental diarrhea you just spewed is the fact that asking about how to convert an OOP monster into a 3E monster is not an appropriate nor on-topic question to post to the OOP forum. Asking about what it is and what it does in OOP EDITIONS is fine, no one has a problem with that. Originally posted by Halaster-Blackcloak The OOP board should not be flooded with 3E centric posts about converting stuff into 3E. How the hell is a peson who plays OOP versions supposed to answer question like that if he never plays 3E? And if he doesn't play 3E, why would he want to discuss it at all? So where do you draw the line? "I need info on Flinds" or "I need info on Flinds to convert them to 3E"? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 93] Author : Halaster-Blackcloak Date : 05-20-04 10:58 AM I stand by my answer. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 94] Author : Strephon Alkhalikoi Date : 05-20-04 11:24 AM Originally posted by Halaster-Blackcloak Er...I wasn't referring to you, Strephon Alkhalikoi, in my last post. I was talking about Qafuu and Icenjucar. ;) Overlapping posts. You obviously know what you're talking about. ;) Gotta love those overlapping posts, eh? No worries. Shuts off my sig line for this post, because Hal is one of the few worthy of a signature, and a sig line of "You are not worthy of a signature." just doesn't cut it. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 95] Author : Halaster-Blackcloak Date : 05-20-04 11:28 AM Strephon Alkhalikoi wrote: Shuts off my sig line for this post, because Hal is one of the few worthy of a signature, and a sig line of "You are not worthy of a signature." just doesn't cut it. I am honored, sir! :) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 96] Author : WizO_Catoblepas Date : 05-20-04 12:42 PM Ok, these boards are for the discussion of Out of Print material, not the discussion of board moderation. Thus, I'm going to close this thread since it is off the subject of Out of Print material However, as a rule, we do not allow threads on the boards that question moderation styles. If you wish to discuss moderation styles, please do not hesitate to e-mail me and I would be more than happy to clarify. If you do not feel confortable discussing it with me, please do not hesitate to e-mail WizO_Paradox since he is the lead moderator of the RPG boards. He is my supervisor. The important point is that there are avenues of redress if you have an issue with moderation styles. However, the boards is not one of them. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Downloaded from Wizards Community (http://forums.gleemax.com) at 05-10-08 08:20 AM.