* * * Wizards Community Thread * * * -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Thread : Frustrated Old Schooler! Started at 05-19-04 08:31 AM by Yorlum Visit at http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=242389 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 1] Author : Yorlum Date : 05-19-04 08:31 AM Thread Title : Frustrated Old Schooler! OK, From one Paleo-gamer to you others: What do you do when your soul cries out to run a 1st ed game but your cast wants to play 3.X? I am TRYING to run a "3rd ed game with 1st ed feel", but it is HARD! First, there are the rules. I have 1st ed down pat. I barely even need the rulebooks, and when I do, I know exactly where to look. Now, I have to be careful to make sure that every skill is checked, all the various situational modifiers are used in combat, and keep architect-precise measurements so that the PC's can take their AoO's. The PC's are hammers with eggshell skin. They can cream anything they hit, but collapse like Geraldo Rivera facing a pro wrestler when they are hit, so the combats are borderline ridiculous. I can't get them to revert to 1st ed, and there are no other local gamers who I can play the real game with. What can I do? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 2] Author : vader42xx Date : 05-19-04 08:46 AM I recently had a very similar situation. Most of my players were less resistant than yours however, so it did make it somewhat easier on me. In your case I would suggest asking them to play a few "old school" games (single session modules and/or adventures would be best) to actually give it a try. If they have already tried it however, then there is little you can do really except, of course, find another group. If they don't like 1e you might suggest a hybrid game of some sort (dropping a lot of the 3e items in favor of 1e rules where you feel the need). If they aren't happy with that (or aren't willing to try it) I would suggest you let one of them DM while you take the roll of a player for a bit. This makes them deal with all the 3e mess and will give at least one of them first hand knowledge as to what a pain the system can be. It also allows you to take a break and get in some roleplaying yourself. After all, it's much easier for a player to enjoy any version of the game than it is for a DM. And, of course, remind them that the DM needs to be enjoying the game too, not just the players. If none of the above convince them to at least give 1e or a hybrid a try then you're probably out of luck and doing anything more will only cause them to resent your efforts. If it comes to that and you just can't take 3e anymore I would suggest finding another group no matter how difficult (maybe even an online game for a while). -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 3] Author : kengar Date : 05-19-04 09:23 AM Vader's suggestions are all good ones. I would add that you might ask your group what is it about 3e that makes them want to play that instead of 1e? Are they unfamiliar with 1e's rules and are comfortable playing d20? Or is there some less tangible reason like tone, etc.? I'm in a slightly different situation. There's a 12 year-old kid who babysits for us that's interested in learning to play D&D. I want to use Moldvay, but he is interested in gaming with some friends of his who are already playing 3.5e. So I'm teaching the rudiments of d20 even though I dislike the system. Ah well, at least its better than sitting in front of the TV. :) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 4] Author : rogueattorney Date : 05-19-04 10:18 AM I think vader and kengar got it right. Remember, it goes both ways. If you're not enjoying yourself as DM, there is no reason for you to continue. It's supposed to be a fun game for you, too. (Something I sometimes think 3e designers/fans forget.) If you can't make the game into something for both you and the players to enjoy, then it's time for someone else to be DM. If none of the players want to step up to the plate, then they're either going to have to be more flexible about their game of choice or look for another gaming group. R.A. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 5] Author : Shapedoctor Date : 05-19-04 10:29 AM Thread Title : Re: Frustrated Old Schooler! Originally posted by Yorlum ...architect-precise measurements so that the PC's can take their AoO's. player: "how far away is the monster?" me (gm): "how close do you want to be?" player: "...um...well... how far away is the monster?" me: "38018028349378549845687098 angstroms" We used to go down the hall and fight stuff. Went through half a module a night. I'm lucky to get 3 encounters with my group in 3.(whatever decimal we're using). We spend half the session figuring out what AC a player is at any given time & whether or not something applies to anything else. There's a lot of great improvements in the modern systems, but we have paid a price for them. I've got a 20+ year old (real world) character I'd love to convert to the new games but he's multi-class and it just doesn't work. I'll just wait for 3.5000000001 edition or something. It'll cost me hundreds of dollars for the books & kill some more trees... bla, bla, bla... Sorry I'm a rag and not much help. I'm running a 3.x campaign and trying for a more classic feel but I don't have the proper words for you at this time. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 6] Author : pilight Date : 05-19-04 10:34 AM I'm in a group that's played OAD&D for years. One of our players has developed an availability issue and will only be able to play intermittently. We've decided to try out 3.5 in a campaign when he's not there. We're all learning it from scratch. All of us have marvelled at how similar it really is. Yeah, there are some new things, but most of the stuff has a parallel in OAD&D to some extent. Skills are just non-weapon proficiencies. Attacks of Opportunity existed when you moved by someone in melee in OAD&D. Most of the Feats are things that PCs got as class skills in OAD&D. The Sorcerer thing is similar to a class which appeared in Dragon 20+ years ago that we used. Sure, they've added some new spells (although many of them also originate from Dragon or other OAD&D sources), made ACs go up instead of down, and streamlined the saving throws, but that's not major. The biggest change is the multi-classing thing, which is not that hard to deal with and is actually an improvement IMO. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 7] Author : rogueattorney Date : 05-19-04 10:48 AM Originally posted by pilight I'm in a group that's played OAD&D for years. One of our players has developed an availability issue and will only be able to play intermittently. We've decided to try out 3.5 in a campaign when he's not there. We're all learning it from scratch. All of us have marvelled at how similar it really is. Yeah, there are some new things, but most of the stuff has a parallel in OAD&D to some extent. Skills are just non-weapon proficiencies. Attacks of Opportunity existed when you moved by someone in melee in OAD&D. Most of the Feats are things that PCs got as class skills in OAD&D. The Sorcerer thing is similar to a class which appeared in Dragon 20+ years ago that we used. Sure, they've added some new spells (although many of them also originate from Dragon or other OAD&D sources), made ACs go up instead of down, and streamlined the saving throws, but that's not major. The biggest change is the multi-classing thing, which is not that hard to deal with and is actually an improvement IMO. So, are you saying that Yorlum's group should concent to playing the older edition because it's not that different? Or are you saying Yorlum should buck up and DM the edition he doesn't like? Personally, I disagree with you and don't think the systems are all that similar, but that's besides the point and off topic. R.A. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 8] Author : Yorlum Date : 05-19-04 11:00 AM First off, thanks for all of your replies! A few more details might help... This group used to be my 1st ed group. They all played the older game but prefer the newer one. When I've suggested running a 1ed, I get a round of groans [But it's not as flexible as 3rd ed, etc] I've played 3rd ed, in one of their games [One of the group DM's a 3rd ed campaign] and found that I dislike playing 3rd ed even more than I dislike running it. So, in summary, They won't go back, and I don't want to go forward. The best answer is to find another group, but these days that means going on-line, and I've yet to find a satisfactory medium for running battles on-line [The closest I've found is Klooge, but my PC won't act as a server]. Reading your replies, I think that what I need is a way to make the 3rd ed game as palatable as possible for me, while finding a way to run a 1st ed game on-line. What, if any, resources have you used for that. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 9] Author : James McMurray Date : 05-19-04 11:09 AM I agree with vader42xx: ask them to try it out. If they still don't want to, there isn't much you can do. You could tell them that you'd rather not DM 3.x and get someone else to DM. If they don't want to, you've limited their options to "play 1e or don't play at all." In any casee you shouldn't be forced to run a game you don't want to run, as that just ensures a TPK happens when you get sick of it. :) IIRC 1e also had a lot of combat modifiers. But what you can do in 3e is just use the "DM's best friend." In a battle, if someone appears to have the upper hand (higher ground, cover, etc.), give them +2 to hit. This would stack with the +2 from flanking. There's no more ned to use every single rule in 3.x than there is in 1/2e. Re: Hammers in Eggshells: That is primarily true at lower levels. After they hit level 5+ they will start to be more resilient. You may also want to try using hordes of lower level critters instead of a single creature of their CR. It ensures battles are less one-sided, because a organized party can dish out serious damage to a single foe, whereas multiple foes force them to split their resources out. If you're already doing this, never mind. :) I'm not sure how to tell you to have a 3e game with 1e feel, because I've never experienced a change in feel in my games, even throughout 4 editions. The rules have changed but the games have stayed the same (I'd like to think they're a bit more mature now though, with less Monty Haul and no deity hunts ;)). -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 10] Author : rogueattorney Date : 05-19-04 12:06 PM Yorlum, Let me answer your question with some questions. If you started to run the game as you'd like to run it, without telling your players that they were switching editions, would they notice or care? What if you said you had some houserules to implement, but didn't tell them where those houserules came from? Is it just that they have some sort of stigma with the old stuff, or are they by-the-book rules Nazis (which would make them un-fun to play with regardless of editions, anyway)? R.A. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 11] Author : kengar Date : 05-19-04 02:00 PM Originally posted by Yorlum This group used to be my 1st ed group. They all played the older game but prefer the newer one. When I've suggested running a 1ed, I get a round of groans [But it's not as flexible as 3rd ed, etc] When I hear this kind of thing, between the lines is usually "My character is soooo much more powerful out of the gate in 3.X. I don't want to play an edition where it takes longer to level up and I don't get as many perks!" etc. :rolleyes: Now, your group may be different, but when running B/X for some 3.X'rs, the main gripe was that OD&D was too "harsh." Even though my games don't emphasize huge fights etc. 3.X's main appeal among players of previous editions seems to be how heavily it favors PC's and reduces repercussions. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 12] Author : WizO_Paradox Date : 05-19-04 02:45 PM When 3e was around the corner, I started to write a module converting characters from older editions to the new edition. (It was a PlaneScape adventure, and Sigil ended up spinning way too fast because of the Tarrasque, becoming the Plane of Concordant Opposition.) But anyways, you could try a 3e adventure that changes things back to 1st edition. Or have them travel to an alternate plane where things "work differently". They can cry in their oatmeal all they want to the universe, but that's the way the universe works. In the adventure, I made small changes. First, for example, the Saving Throws were done differently. Everything else was the same. Then to hit was changed and so on. There's no reason you couldn't take 3e edition character and reverse engenieer him though the adventure to an older edition world. "You feel your strength change. You're still a strong warrior, but it feels.. different... What's your STR score? 25? Okay, put down 18/85 next to your STR score.. Here, fill it in on this character sheet... You can get the Bend Bars info in this book here..." Simple. I don't know why everyone seems to think they MUST play "By the Book". I don't know ANY DMs in the old days that did so. And I run my games that way today. (Yes, 3e BUT I'm not a slave to not set in stone rule books.) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 13] Author : James McMurray Date : 05-19-04 02:45 PM Originally posted by kengar 3.X's main appeal among players of previous editions seems to be how heavily it favors PC's and reduces repercussions. You apparently haven't played 3.x and/or missed the statement above about how the characters have eggshell defenses. :rolleyes: -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 14] Author : WizO_Paradox Date : 05-19-04 02:46 PM And let's not turn this in to another "Which version is better" bashing thread. We've just been through all that. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 15] Author : James McMurray Date : 05-19-04 02:48 PM But anyways, you could try a 3e adventure that changes things back to 1st edition. Or have them travel to an alternate plane where things "work differently". They can cry in their oatmeal all they want to the universe, but that's the way the universe works. I did this in my 3e campaign. The characters went through a portal into the past. Because the world was being run by a different pantheon of deities it worked differently than their time. You should have seen the look on my players' faces when I handed them their D&D (Companion level) character sheets. :D -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 16] Author : James McMurray Date : 05-19-04 02:49 PM Originally posted by WizO_Paradox And let's not turn this in to another "Which version is better" bashing thread. We've just been through all that. I was merely trying to point out that Yorlum's players probably don't prefer 3e because of power levels, given that he has said they drop like rocks pretty easily. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 17] Author : diaglo Date : 05-19-04 02:56 PM Originally posted by James McMurray (I'd like to think they're a bit more mature now though, with less Monty Haul and no deity hunts ;)). i could say something about this too. but that isn't the question of the thread. i've converted all the material i have to my edition of preference (OD&D 1974 for those who might not know). i even snail mailed someone from this board a copy of my notes for a couple adventures. i never heard back.....hello.. are you still out there. use Doxxie's suggestion. that's what Sutherland did with Q1. many don't like Q1 but that is besides the point. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 18] Author : SavatageBT Date : 05-19-04 03:59 PM I can't get them to revert to 1st ed, and there are no other local gamers who I can play the real game with. What can I do? I guess to sum it up, get a group of more flexible players...if you want a solid group of players...I suggest getting hooked up with openrpg program...designed to allow any pen and paper type game to be played in real time over the net and unlike some junk software out there will leave nameless...its free and opensource... If you can do it at home on the kitchen table then u can do in the program either by built in functions or self designed macro's... What is Modern D20 in a nut shell and why people like it so much...??? TSR DND the real original version was always a d20 system...just never called that... 10 to -10 tsr dnd example...0-20 wotc dnd hmmm...break it down to the basics... All modern d20 is really is the old d20 of TSR DnD just based off 0 and goes up...instead of base 0 and go both ways... The modern D20 system ( no offense to any one but ) in a nut shell is a system wotc used to make it so Stupid people who cant subtract numbers can play RPG's.... Thats it D20 is not new at all by any means...its all in the mechanics of how you apply the die results to your base number... I think that may have been your adversity, to wanting to use the old vs. the new system... Nothing is wrong with the d20 modern system...not slamming it at all...pointing out people find it easier to just keep adding from 0-100 than any math the would involve fractions... Now as a DM/player of 30 some years now...its always been the same in Hard print game books , DnD, battletech, travler etc...all say the same thing.."these books are guidelines" always will be that way... DnD3e or WOTC dnd is the same as TSR's original DnD or Adnd...all thats changed is game mechanics and naming conversions...AC used to go down now it goes up...thats the only change to ac at all period...Some spell names have changed but are identical to tsr dnd spells... pointed out earlier NoN weapon prof's are now simply called skills...prestige classes are simply add ons from Dragon mag white dwarf and various other mediums...For those that think wotc dnd is different from TSR dnd...the only difference is how you apply the dice rolls...the rest remains the same...to try to argue other wise is simply laughable imo because i know better...compare all the source books side by side its the same base data...only the dice mechanics have changed the core remains the same.... If you lose the roleplay du to game mechanics then you lose the game fun period...if all a player wants is to nit pick rules in a book this becomes disruptive and the game dies out...as a player What ever the DM choses to use, not use or make up I follow it and work within the system provided in the DM's campaign setting...I hold to this as a DM as well... To suggest a solution for this part: the best answer is to find another group, but these days that means going on-line, and I've yet to find a satisfactory medium for running battles on-line [The closest I've found is Klooge, but my PC won't act as a server]. Read here: Any ways like I said goto openrpg.com read over the forums and review the software...any one feel free to contact me about this post I am on msm/aim under SavatageBT as my handle on either messaging service...Also if your interested in playing in an online Fantasy RPG useing the openrpg program...I have a new campaign about to start....material used will be from the old days of TSR dnd/chainmail to moden wotc 3.5+ dnd...the game mechanics will be based off d20 ( with some mods added )....see my post on the open rpg forums... http://forums.rpghost.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=18673 Have a nice day every one. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 19] Author : blackprinceofmuncie Date : 05-19-04 04:23 PM Yorlum, I totally know where you are coming from. I ran several 3.0 campaigns from 2000 until just this Spring. After 3+ years I finally realized that DMing had turned into work because the rules fought me instead of supporting me in making the kind of game I wanted. I was left with exactly the same situation you are in, a group that refused to play B/X, 1e (I would even have settled for 2e). The solution I came up with was switching to an entirely different system, one which none of the players were familiar with, but which was very old-school, put power squarely in the hands of the DM and was rules-lite. My choice was Warhammer FRPG (modified to a "Basic" version of the game with some house rules). Couching the change in terms of both a better system for me to DM and introducing some variety into our gaming persuaded everyone to give the system a try. It's worked out great. The players non-familiarity with the system meant they had no preconceived notions about how it compared with 3e, which made it easier for them to try. I feel like the rules support me, rather than fight me in making the game fun. I'm happy. They're happy. This particular system may not be the right one for you. But there are a ton of others out there for you to try (Runequest, Tunnels and Trolls, Elric, MERP, etc.). You might even go over to the Troll Lord Games website and check out their new Castles and Crusades game, which is specifically designed to be an old-school game for new gamers and those who don't find 3e D&D to their taste. If your players simply don't want to return to a system they decided they don't like, I can understand that. If they're so inflexible that they're not willing to try ANYTHING other than 3e D&D, then you've got yourself a group of very selfish players and all I can say is, I feel for you. Good luck! :) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 20] Author : rogueattorney Date : 05-19-04 05:04 PM Along the same lines as what BPOM is saying, I really like the new Cthulhu Dark Ages game. Uses a similar BRP system as the Elric/Stormbringer games. I liken it to the old B/X D&D in terms of giving you a reasonable amount of rules and the basis for a campaign setting in about 120 pages. R.A. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 21] Author : q'afuu Date : 05-19-04 05:13 PM Thread Title : Re: Frustrated Old Schooler! Before I dig in, I'll freely admit my knowledge of 1st ed. is sketchy at best (before my time, or at least before my English-speaking time). Still, I'd like to think I can give a few pointers. Originally posted by Yorlum First, there are the rules. I have 1st ed down pat. I barely even need the rulebooks, and when I do, I know exactly where to look. Now, I have to be careful to make sure that every skill is checked, all the various situational modifiers are used in combat, and keep architect-precise measurements so that the PC's can take their AoO's. So basically, you don't know 3E like you know 1E. No biggie. I use pretty much all the 3E rules, but I don't need a grid to keep track of positions, AoOs or the like (not until things get really complicated, at least). Maybe you can do what a DM friend of mine does - simplify matters somewhat but keep the basics. The same things provoke AoOs, but the DM calls it on unclear cases (can I get past someone without provoking or not, for instance). Flanking is simple: if two attackers are adjacent, it takes a round for them to get in position but then they flank - depending on initiative, their target stays flanked unless he moves away or he's only flanked for the second attacker. Speed, or rather distance, is at the DM's discretion as well. Just ask if you can get somewhere or not. And so on. His game is strictly core, with a very limited number of extras that have to be requested by the players when appropriate for their character (a dozen or so PrCs, the occasional non-core spell, etc). In short, whatever details you'd prefer to adjudicate yourself instead of leaving it to a grid and measurements and whatever, you do adjudicate in your game. It's that simple. That works great for that particular group - I have some very fond memories of adventures run that way - it only takes a certain amount of acceptance and belief from the players that the DM will do his job well. You can take it as far as you want (or your group allows, I guess): I know that some people simply drop AoOs altogether for instance. That's a pretty big change, but apparently it can work. Most other things really aren't that different from what I remember, even if they work differently. Skills for instance work largely the same on a conceptual level, although 3E streamlined the whole system a lot. In the end, it's still a roll that has to be better than a target, either set by the DM or rolled by the DM for an NPC. Originally posted by Yorlum The PC's are hammers with eggshell skin. They can cream anything they hit, but collapse like Geraldo Rivera facing a pro wrestler when they are hit, so the combats are borderline ridiculous. Honestly, this has nothing to do with the edition. It's perfectly possible to make decent all-round characters in any edition I've ever played (which doesn't include 1E, but hey, I assume that worked there too). Sure, you can make characters that can wallop with the best of them but can't take a punch in return, just like you can make characters that are all-defense but couldn't put a hole in a wet paper bag. Your players have to learn that defense is as important as offense, or learn to live with the consequences. Don't pull your punches until they learn that lesson. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 22] Author : vader42xx Date : 05-19-04 05:31 PM With the additional information you've posted I've got one or two more suggestions. You might try running a 2nd edition game (or something similar) as it has pretty much the same feel of 1st edition but is less rules heavy and has a few elements that made it into 3e. If you don't like 2e or if they won't give that a try either then it makes little difference however. ;) The other "suggestion" is just to agree with those who have said you might just want to do a little converting to 3e. Before I switched back to 2e these were some of the things I was working on: 1- No favored classes (restricts rampant multi-classing). 2- Remove several overpowered feats (pick the ones you hate). 3- Get rid of cross-class skills (if it's not on your list you can't take it...this one makes PCs work together better as they can't all be average or better at everything). 4- Restrict prestige classes to only those that fit into your world (better yet, make up your own and toss all the rest out the window). 5- Use the 2e or 1e system for magic items (keeps you from having cookie cutter items all over the place). 6- Use the item creation feats from Arcana Unearthed (basically combined several of the feats into one, etc). 7- Pick up Unearthed Arcana (WotC) and try a few of those rules (I like the new XP system myself). Anyway, not suggestions so much as ideas that I had when I was in your shoes. If any of them even give you an idea which will make your games more enjoyable then life is good. :D Edit: Ah, by the way, I run an online game of 2nd edition every week just using AOL Instant Messenger and good descriptions. :) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 23] Author : Falstaff the Fighter Date : 05-19-04 05:43 PM I think the egg sgell cmment stems from the way 3e's AC does not scale up as quickly as the attack bonuses of monsters, so that the two are always out of balance. In 1e, the attack values of PCs and creatures were generally much lower and the armor values, while being harder to attain past AC 0, matched them more evenly. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 24] Author : blackprinceofmuncie Date : 05-19-04 06:19 PM Originally posted by Falstaff the Fighter I think the egg sgell cmment stems from the way 3e's AC does not scale up as quickly as the attack bonuses of monsters, so that the two are always out of balance. In 1e, the attack values of PCs and creatures were generally much lower and the armor values, while being harder to attain past AC 0, matched them more evenly. IME the "eggshell PC" had a lot more to do with the rules encouraging stupid play than with the rules making PCs too weak. When the rules allow thieves to gain significant damage modifiers by flanking in melee combat, guess what thief PCs want to do? Get into melee! Guess what, one or two good smacks from an ogre will squish a thief, whereas fighter, barbarians, clerics, etc are built to take that kind of hit. Sure thieves can get sneak attack with ranged attacks, but only when the opponent is flat-footed. Most of the time that occurs only once per combat (at the beginning of combat, IF the thief beats the opponent's initiative roll). Getting that VERY appealing additional 2d6 damage the rest of the time usually involves moving into melee, where it's bye-bye PC with one or two good hits. So I guess I really disagree with the premise that there are "eggshell" PCs at all. The PCs have what they need to survive, but the rules tend to tempt them into doing stupid things that get them killed. YMMV of course. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 25] Author : skathros Date : 05-19-04 10:09 PM Originally posted by WizO_Paradox And let's not turn this in to another "Which version is better" bashing thread. We've just been through all that. yes, gods forbid you voice you preference for OOP D&D over d20 fantasy on the OOP section:rolleyes: -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 26] Author : WizO_Catoblepas Date : 05-19-04 10:37 PM The key point which Paradox is trying to make is that we want guests to post that they like an edition, no matter what the edition may be. However, there's no point on bashing another edition in order to do so. In fact, the problem with such bashing is that it causes others to post in a manner that violates the Code of Conduct because on side has strong personal feeling to their favorite edition. Thus, the WizOs have to consider such bashing as baiting, since prior history has shown that flame wars erupt after such bashing. It may not have been the intent of the author, but it ends up being baiting all the same. An edition isn't good because all the other editions are bad: it's good because it's fun to play. As for the topic of the thread, I understand what you are saying Yorlum. There are times that I look at a new module or an adventure in Dungeon magazine and say to myself, "Yep, that plot comes out of the Module .... from first edition." Furthermore, I also get frustrated because, much like you, I used to remember parts of the DMG and PHB verbatim and many of my gaming friends were the same way. I've tried to convert the 1st edition modules to the current editions, but it still doesn't have the same flavor as when I played the modules in 1st edition. I think that if they could ever bottle that feeling and make it available for the newer editions that it would be very special. If I ever figure it out, I'll let you know. In a way, for me, I think that I already know the answer. I used to play 1st edition when I was in high school when I used to have a lot less real-life stresses in my life. Furthermore, everything was new to me - I couldn't metagame a drow elf because I never dealt with one prior. I'm thinking that this is what I want to get back to, but I don't think I'll can get there. I know it isn't much help, but just wanted to share my perspective. I wish you luck in your quest. :) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 27] Author : Incenjucar Date : 05-20-04 07:20 AM If they insist on playing 3e no matter what, I advise you only allow the most utterly default options from the three core books. Make things easier on yourself. Dropping PrCs is probably a good way to start. You may also want to restrict classes to the core four, give or take. However, you may be able to lure them towards your preference via hybrid, as has been mentioned. You could introduce Feats, for instance, as Weapon Proficiencies. They existed in OOP material (ninja's handbook, etc), anyways, so if you compare things, you can shove'em in. Just don't forget to give your monster the same (Even if its something formulaic, like Weapon Focus). Another possibility is trying to simply negotiate. Try to get them to let you DM an older edition game once every, oh, four sessions? Perhaps they'll remember the old magic, or perhaps, with that helping you to relax, you'll get in to 3e more. Or you may all just end up playing LARP-style in the backyard. Either way works. Vader's ideas are all rather good, especially in regards to magic items, which are defaulted rather high in 3e. Treasure Restriction can do amazing things to de-power adventurers, just make sure the fighter doesn't get the short end of the stick (IE, have better fighter-style weapons show up in the treasure heaps, but not things that wizards will be drooling over). In regards to what Cato said, metagaming is easy to deal with if you throw things at them that they've never dealt with before. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 28] Author : Yorlum Date : 05-20-04 07:51 AM Thread Title : Much applause and Heartfelt Thanks! I am at a loss. The number and quality of your replies to what I concede could have easily become an incendiary topic overwhelms me. I thank you all, each any every one, for sharing your experiences and ideas. In the short run, I have decided on cheatsheeting as much of the PC stats as possible [making a summary of what each persons er 'THAC20' is, turn undead abilities, etc]. For the monsters, I think I'll just 'roll dice' behind the screen and use the conventions I am more comfortable with to reflect their abilities. The eggshell and sledgehammer problem really is more theirs than mine, though... Not sure what to do for them for making such brittle PC's. Maybe they'll learn... It does seem, though, that my players are still getting used to 3rd ed. [They are focusing on maxing their attack plusses, without considering that the baddies can bump their attacks too...] The Skills I have little choice but to grit my teeth, I guess. I Like these players, they've been friends of mine for 10+ years. So, I figure that I can try to adapt to their preference. For myself, I guess I can sign on with some of the on-line 1ed games out there. In the end, though, the thing I miss is the ease of use that 1st ed offered me. I could apply the rules on the fly, and didn't need to sit down to figure the attacks/defenses, skills of a monster. I *knew* them all by heart, and all that varied was hp. If I wanted to toss a wandering monster, I could just say "You see a...large humanoid with a great spear approaching..." And know that there was an AC5 Ogre that attacked as a 4hd+ monster with 18/00 strength and 1-12 +6 damage. HP were 4d8+3, and xp was 90 + 5 / hp. I didn't need any books to have that info, to do something like that now would take me two minutes or so, which really tends to stutter and stall a game to do on the fly, but to have it all set in advance makes it all seem 'canned'. At any rate, I have a session tomorrow night. I'll let you all know how it went. Thanks again for everything! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 29] Author : Incenjucar Date : 05-20-04 08:34 AM That's the nice thing about flames having their own threads; people have the need to feel better about themselves so they post extra-civil elsewhere. :D And yeah, I hear you on the simplicity. I used to have the monster style sheet -memorized- for 2e. I could make a monster without ever checking a book. 3e doesn't allow that. It's the price for added complexity. That's probably why so many are waiting for D&D Basic. Still, so long as you don't over-extend in to too many extra books, it's not much harder to get the information down, it's more of a time issue. I haven't even played more than a few levels of 3e myself (Indeed, I can send you the files of my ENTIRE 3e experience -- I -hate- Church-laden areas...), but I still have managed to memorize a few rules that people who've played enough to complain forget, and I have a bad memory. It really comes to time. But hey, glad you found the help you needed, and here's hoping you have plenty of great games ahead of you, whatever edition or hybrid they may be. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 30] Author : GreyLord Date : 05-21-04 12:27 AM Here are some solutions...get Unearthed Arcana. In it there are multiple houserules that you can choose to use. For example, everyone only gets skills when they first create their character. At that point they are considered to have the max abilities in those skills...for their level. They don't gain new skills (unless you use the rule of them gaining more skills if they multiclass...such as gaining rogue abilities). Another houserule is that of the Prestige Bard, which you can use in place of the core class bard...and can be more like the Bard of 1e in many ways. You can also use the alternate experience tables at the back of the book, which also show the XP per CR/monster. If you so choose you could even use Gestalt characters (with a few houserules to balance them out) which are a lot like multiclass characters in many ways. Personally, I have a 1e group because of two reasons. Years ago, I met people and I was the one who taught them how to play. I taught them how to play 1e. The second reason is...unlike you, NO ONE in this area wants to play 3e...it's either 1e or 2e...truthfully, of course that's also why the gamestore down the street STILL hasn't sold it's original shipment of 3.5 to it. On the otherhand, since I do teach others how to play, or like to play 3.0 sometimes, I do get a few players that will play it if I ask, and if I really want to, I can invite some people over that have never played, and give them a shot...though typically that's a lot of handholding. 3.0 without the handholding typically makes non-roleplayers say it's too complex and they never want to try it again...however, with handholding, and letting their imaginations roam free, they seem to really enjoy 3.0/3.5 a lot, so much so that many of them afterwards decide they'd rather play a 3.x edition instead of any earlier editions... But the same could work for you...find new friends, and invite them over, and teach them how to play. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 31] Author : Tenzhi Date : 05-21-04 01:18 AM My solution to a similar problem was to just sit down and rewrite the SRD into a rules-set which was more "palatable" - though it's been a bit of work, and I wouldn't suggest it to anyone who isn't generally RPG-rules-savvy or afraid to muck with things. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 32] Author : vader42xx Date : 05-21-04 02:50 AM Glad we have been of some help. :) And I must agree 100% with those who suggest picking up Unearthed Arcana. Many of the optional rules in that system smack of 1e or 2e and "fix" quite a few things I consider to be wrong with 3e. Whatever your solutions, Incenjucar hit the nail right on the head. You've got lots of games in your future (at least one would hope...) so all you can do is try to make the game fun for all involved, yourself included. Since you seem to be making every effort in that direction I have no doubt that your games will continue to be fun no matter what edition you play. :) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 33] Author : rogueattorney Date : 05-21-04 09:26 AM The last three threads suggest either 1) purchasing a product for a system that you don't like in order to make it suit you better; or 2) dissecting the the system you don't like and then reconstructing it into a system you like better. Why? If you have a system you like already, why bother continuing to attempt pounding a square peg into a round hole? There are tons of games, old and new, out there for you and your players to enjoy. Find one you all like, and have fun. R.A. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 34] Author : vader42xx Date : 05-21-04 11:30 AM Because then he wouldn't be playing D&D...and that's not good! :D -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 35] Author : rogueattorney Date : 05-21-04 12:28 PM Originally posted by vader42xx Because then he wouldn't be playing D&D...and that's not good! :D I'm not going to respond to this the way I REALLY want to respond to this, because I'm SURE it would offend 3e-ophiles out there. And we wouldn't want to do that, even though this is supposedly the board for fans of the OOP editions... R.A. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 36] Author : kengar Date : 05-21-04 01:03 PM Originally posted by rogueattorney I'm not going to respond to this the way I REALLY want to respond to this, because I'm SURE it would offend 3e-ophiles out there. And we wouldn't want to do that, even though this is supposedly the board for fans of the OOP editions... R.A. Your restraint is an inspiration to us all, RA. :rolleyes: ;) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 37] Author : Yorlum Date : 05-21-04 02:31 PM Originally posted by rogueattorney The last three threads suggest either 1) purchasing a product for a system that you don't like in order to make it suit you better; or 2) dissecting the the system you don't like and then reconstructing it into a system you like better. Why? If you have a system you like already, why bother continuing to attempt pounding a square peg into a round hole? There are tons of games, old and new, out there for you and your players to enjoy. Find one you all like, and have fun. R.A. In an effort to support what has been an amazing display of cooperation and restraint on this board, I'll try to explain, without trying to toss gasoline on this particular match, because I can understand RA's question, and it IS valid. I personally have no real issue with purchasing products to make the system suit me better. I did it back in the '70's when I bought AD&D and played a bastardized OD&D/AD&D game for years afterwards [Keep in mind that was back when there was no real standardization of campaigns, *NO* two groups that I know of played alike, you all used what books you managed to buy, and made up what areas you had no book for.] We've played many other games over the years, but D&D has always been special, probably because it was the first one we played... And, in spite of what some may claim, in any edition, it is more adaptable and pick-up-and-playable than any other system I've played. So, in answer to you, we WANT to play D&D. Our differences are a matter of style. My buddies want to 'power up' their PC's, while I prefer a game that is easy for me to run off the cuff, and where I can offer a more gradual advancement of characters and plot. In the long run, I realize that 3rd ed isn't it for me, and while I will run their game for them, I need to find a [probably on-line] 1st ed game that I can join. The Player classifieds look kinda sparse there, though... The solutions that people have offered [and even moreso, their empathy!] have been a big help. It is good to know that I am not alone, and I feel energized to TRY some of these ideas out. So, as those who've read some of my posts have probably guessed, while I am still an old-schooler at heart, I am willing to make a change for my friends' sake. Respectfully, Yorlum -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 38] Author : kengar Date : 05-21-04 02:54 PM Originally posted by Yorlum In the long run, I realize that 3rd ed isn't it for me, and while I will run their game for them, I need to find a [probably on-line] 1st ed game that I can join. The Player classifieds look kinda sparse there, though... Check out Dragonsfoot's forums. There is a "seeking adventure" board over there and the 1e crowd should be a higher % than here. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 39] Author : q'afuu Date : 05-21-04 08:43 PM Originally posted by rogueattorney I'm not going to respond to this the way I REALLY want to respond to this, because I'm SURE it would offend 3e-ophiles out there. Insulting the poster isn't insulting the system. Telling someone what you feel about him and his opinion of editions other than 3E won't insult anyone else. It's still a CoC violation though. ;) Then again, so was his post. So the solution is simple: report him and let the WizOs deal with it. The smiley seems to suggest his post was made in jest though, so I wouldn't take it so seriously. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 40] Author : Incenjucar Date : 05-21-04 08:58 PM Yorlum is to be held as an inspiration, not a traitor. He has upheld the true spirit and meaning of D&D. Friendship. He has been selfless to his friends. He has made a sacrifice instead of demanding his way or the highway. He is to be commended. And hopefully he'll be repaid by getting to play his way too. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 41] Author : blackprinceofmuncie Date : 05-21-04 11:25 PM Yorlum, any chance of one of your friends selflessly agreeing to run a 1e campaign for you to play in? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 42] Author : WizO_Catoblepas Date : 05-22-04 12:04 AM Ok, let's knock off the edition wars post. If you think someone has posted in a way that violated the Code of Conduct, press the "Report the Post to a Moderator" text and the moderators will investigate it. Thanks. As for offering Unearthed Arcana as an option with some general reason why it can be used to give an OoP feeling to a current game, of course that is allowed on this board. However, if you want to go into Unearthed Arcana specific details to explain why you can get that feel, you might want to start a post over on the Unearthed Arcana boards and link it in this thread. Just a thought. Thanks. :) edit: For those who haven't gotten into this edition wars argument and have been able to post on topic, I'm truly sorry for this interruption in the thread. Keep up the good work. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 43] Author : Stonebeard Date : 05-22-04 07:27 PM How's this for an off the wall idea... if you don't want to DM 3.x then don't. Make of them do it. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 44] Author : Yorlum Date : 05-23-04 06:24 AM Originally posted by Stonebeard How's this for an off the wall idea... if you don't want to DM 3.x then don't. Make of them do it. One does, but his skills are not in the DMing arena. He has a hard time coming up with an interesting storyline for his campaigns. Well, it went ok, if slowly. I'll talk to each player over the next few days in private to address any concerns. Maybe I can work this out yet. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 45] Author : James McMurray Date : 05-23-04 11:10 AM Perhaps the other guy could use pregenerated modules for a while. I find they give a good starting point to get the brain juices flowing. I rarely have the time to create entire adventures from scratch, but taking something already written and tweaking it to fit my and my players' style is fairly easy. Your friend may find the same to be true for him. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 46] Author : Faraer Date : 05-23-04 04:47 PM My buddies want to 'power up' their PC'sHave you tried making them feel small and embarrassed by pointing out how pathetic, infantile, primitive, nerdish, and generally psychologically suspect that mindset is? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 47] Author : OlafTheUnbathed Date : 05-23-04 05:00 PM Well, for the uberpowergamer crew, there are few solutions as entertaining for a DM as dropping them into A4, bereft of gear and spells! :devil: -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 48] Author : James McMurray Date : 05-23-04 05:11 PM If the only thing they want 3.x for is powering up their characters, explain to them that amny of the things in 3.x are the dame as or similar to many options in 2e Skills & Powers / High Level Campaigns. Then point out that monsters got th same powerups, so the balance of the game doesn't change much. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 49] Author : Yorlum Date : 05-23-04 05:21 PM Comparing them to 2nd edition won't work. They went from 1st to 3rd. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 50] Author : JongWK Date : 06-02-04 05:41 PM I'd respectfully like to add that if some people are missing some of the "old feeling", they could try using 3.5's Unearthed Arcana. There is a wealth of options, including Paragon classes (a throwback to the old Elf or Halfling classes), variants and Gestalt characters. The latter can be easily adapted for multiclassing characters. Just my two copper pieces. :angel: -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 51] Author : vader42xx Date : 06-03-04 02:24 AM That's a very good and true point. But for most of us even that doesn't take care of the problem. We are still left with what we feel is an overpowered system that moves too fast and playes like a video game on paper. I tried that myself and I'll be the first to admit that Unearthed Arcane for 3e did make things a great deal better. It just, for me, wasn't nearly enough. :) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 52] Author : JongWK Date : 06-03-04 11:38 AM Originally posted by vader42xx That's a very good and true point. But for most of us even that doesn't take care of the problem. We are still left with what we feel is an overpowered system that moves too fast and playes like a video game on paper. I tried that myself and I'll be the first to admit that Unearthed Arcane for 3e did make things a great deal better. It just, for me, wasn't nearly enough. :) Yes, when I first switched a campaign to 3E, the jump in power and speed was noticeable. I think both can be curbed, though (just take a look at the Midnight campaign setting). You can slow down Xp by cutting them down, or giving them in a different way. UA also gives a variant XP table, which you can adapt with some simple tinkering. As for the videogame feel... yes, it sometimes does have that feeling. However, I greatly aprpeciate the fact that most people can actually understand most if not all of the streamlined rules, not to mention that any part of the game can be easily replaced at will. It's a matter of taste. :angel: (Still miss the kits, though :D ) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 53] Author : vader42xx Date : 06-03-04 05:15 PM I totally agree, it's all in what you're looking for and what you are willing to do. My problem was that by the time I was done converting this, changing that, and reworking something else, etc I was going to have made 2e out of 3e anyway. ;) So I skipped the middle man and came back to the D&D game that I enjoy. But I still must give credit where it is due...Unearthed Arcana did wonderful things for 3e. Just now wonderful enough for me personally. :) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 54] Author : JongWK Date : 06-03-04 05:46 PM Originally posted by vader42xx My problem was that by the time I was done converting this, changing that, and reworking something else, etc I was going to have made 2e out of 3e anyway. ;) *LOL* Originally posted by vader42xx But I still must give credit where it is due...Unearthed Arcana did wonderful things for 3e. Just now wonderful enough for me personally. :) Yep, though the best thing about UA is that most, if not all, is Open Gaming Content. More tools for smaller companies. Ok, back to your regular vintage schedule. :) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 55] Author : theDwarf Date : 06-04-04 03:52 PM If nothing else works, try HackMaster. Why? Because it may be that the new3 D&D just doesn't fit your gaming style. For example, personally, I prefer Wheel of Time and Star Wars to standard 3.x Ed D&D because they fit my personal style better even though the base system is d20/3.x Ed. That being said, I really like things I saw in both Arcana Unearthed and the new Unearthed Arcana. AU is a different world and magic, etc, works differently (Bastion Press) and Unearthed Arcana (WotC) has a lot of additional optional rules including a different experience point progreesion which is much more like AD&D. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Downloaded from Wizards Community (http://forums.gleemax.com) at 05-10-08 08:20 AM.