* * * Wizards Community Thread * * * -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Thread : A long commentary on edition fights Started at 05-20-04 04:12 AM by Halaster-Blackcloak Visit at http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=242984 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 1] Author : Halaster-Blackcloak Date : 05-20-04 04:12 AM Thread Title : A long commentary on edition fights Ok, some things need saying here. First, I'd like to explain some attitudes, address some problems, offer the solution and encourage everyone to help WizO_Paradox make it possible. I'm not open to debating what I'm about to say. I've been through this for 4 years, I have heard every single argument in every single debate. At this point, no one is going to change my mind about anything I'm about to say. So don't even bother debating me on it, it's a losing proposition. I'm only posting this to clarify some issues and to help WizO_Paradox get this OOP forum fixed. Some people will no doubt take it upon themselves to be "offended" by this post. That would be doing yourself a disservice. As you will see, it's going to be an impartial examination. Before we go any further, people need to clearly understand that a great many OOP gamers absolutely hate what WOTC did with the direction of D&D. Not only the changes to the game itself, but also in some cases the marketing tactics, the d20 open game license, staff changes, moderation style on their discussion forums, etc. And we have a right to feel that way, just as others have a right to enjoy and celebrate all the changes WOTC made, and the new edition. You also need to understand that there has been an obvious, provable bias, conscious or otherwise, against OOP gamers generally and the OOP forum specifically. This has been going on for 4 long years now. The arguments are the same recycled crap from year to year. Nothing has changed. And before anyone gets the idea that this is not true, I will remind you that perceptions are formed by viewing actions. Perceptions do not exist in a vacuum. SOMETHING has to be happening in order for so many people to feel the same way. There's a lot of bad blood flowing around the internet. That being said, it's time to fix the problem instead of ignoring it, debating it endlessly, crying about it, or dismissing it as meaningless or unfounded. First point...defending editions. No one has any business "defending" their edition. You might be saying to yourself right now: "But Halaster, your own signature says 'Noble Defender of 1E/2E AD&D', doesn't it?". And you'd be right of course. However...you do not see me going into any of the 3E forums here or at any other site to "defend" OOP editions, now do you? And there is plenty of OOP bashing going on in a great many forums, trust me. So what does my signature mean? This is an OOP forum. Most of the people here prefer OOP editions and either have not converted to 3E or have tried 3E and decided to come back to OOP editions. Some play 3E only because they cannot find a preferable OOP edition game in their area, but still do not like 3E (they believe it's better to game in an edition they don't like rather than not game at all). Anyone with a smidgen of common sense and two functional brain cells should expect that in an OOP forum there are going to be criticisms of, denouncing of, and displeasure expressed towards 3E. To believe otherwise is being naive in the extreme. There is no need to "defend" 3E here. You're not going to change anyone's mind, they're not going to change yours. Coming into the OOP forum and talking about how much you love 3E and how you're so glad you sold all your OOP stuff and switched to 3E is just looking for a fight. Doing that is as stupid as wearing a Klan costume to a Black Panther summit. Something is going to hit the fan, and it ain't gonna be cool wind. The only time you'll see me "defending" an OOP edition is in an OOP forum when some clueless fool steps into it and starts proselytizing for 3E, or making ridiculous accusations such as "2E is inflexible compared to 3E", "you can't do X, Y, or Z in 2E" or "1E is too limited". I don't go to the OOP forums to hear that crap. I don't go to OOP forums to hear about how your half-demon lord/half-celestial draconic vampiric wizard/monk/druid demi-power can use Feat X to do 16 trillion points of damage with his vorpal/keen beer mug. I don't go to OOP forums to hear about how you're oh so glad that you switched to 3E or how you're enjoying all the "freedom" that you never had playing OOP editions. If I want to hear that crap, I'll go to the 3E forums. Like most OOP gamers, I come to the OOP forums to discuss OOP games, period. I should not be constantly inundated with off topic posts discussing an edition I have no interest in (3E), especially since such posts are indeed off topic in an OOP forum. And I don't want to hear any nonsense about how 3E is "OOP". It's not. It's still being sold, 3.5E is nothing more than a tweaking of 3E. 3E is still totally different from other OOP games. Different style, different company, etc. It's a non-TSR game. The bottom line is that if you come into an OOP forum not expecting people to express displeasure about 3E from time to time, and if you believe there is any justification for arguing the matter, you're a fool. I used to be just such a fool. I thought there was a reason to stray into various 3E forums and "defend" OOP editions. I wised up. There is no reason, other than the desire to fight, period. Or perhaps the ignorance of the truth...that doing so was a great waste of time. Of course, all this also applies to OOP gamers going into 3E forums and so on. It applies in both directions. The most logical thing to do is to respect both sides. 3E gamers play 3E, so they naturally don't want their boards flooded with questions pertaining to OOP editions. It's not a 3E discussion forum if half the posts are OOP oriented. Likewise, OOP gamers tend to play OOP games, they don't need or want their single OOP forum (which floats in a sea of about 100 3E forums) to be filled with 3E-centric posts. Are 3E gamers (and WOTC itself) so damned greedy or rude that they don't think OOP gamers should have a tiny corner to discuss their preferences without being constantly challenged or molested? There are of course those gamers who enjoy all editions or who play all the various editions or who are simply interested in discussing comparisons between editions. So the polite thing for them to do, the sane thing, would be to post in an Edition Comparison/Mixed Editions forum. That way, those who want to compare them can do so, those who play 3E can enjoy their forum free of continual posts about "that old crap" and OOP gamers can enjoy their forum free of continual posts about "that new crap". It ain't rocket science, folks! As for taking complaints privately, that's not an option. Various WizOs have been written privately for years, this has been publicly discussed for years, and still the same problems exist. It's reached a critical mass, and all hell has broken loose. You simply can't put a lid on a pressure cooker indefinitely and not expect it to explode. This is why there's so much of an uproar now. People who don't know the facts and have no concept of the full four year history of this ongoing problem are not entitled to an opinion on the matter. They're clueless, and that's not being derogatory, that's being honest. So when people talk about "taking it private" or try using the same old discredited arguments, it only incites the OOP gamers all the more. Been there, done that, got the ratty t-shirt to prove it. I'm not going to waste time listing links and giving examples of biased moderation and policy, or examples of troll invasions which always seem to target the OOP board, etc. The bottom line is that any person intelligent enough to read is intelligent enough to realize that a great many OOP gamers are upset about how they're being treated, and the problem is not going to disappear just because a handful of bliss bunnies want the problem to go away. I use the term "bliss bunny" to describe people who simply cannot tolerate any discussion that is "unpleasant" or in any way deviates from the perception that all is well and good, sugar and sunshine in WOTC land. I won't name names of course, but I'm sure everyone understands the concept. The first step in dealing with a problem is acknowledging it exists. Ignoring it has not worked for 4 years. Maybe it's time to try a different approach, huh? So we jump forward to the solutions. WizO_Paradox agrees with our suggestion that there be an Edition Comparison/Edition Mixing forum. He said he's working on the idea. If he does this, it's going to change the entire dynamic and address the problem directly. OOP gamers will not have anything to ***** about since there won't be a glut of off-topic, pro-3E, or anti-OOP posts in the OOP section. There also won't be tons of OOP posts in 3E forums. This will have the effect of taking the matches away from the powder kegs. I can anticipate some of you saying "Well the fights will just pop up in the Edition Comparison Forum". Wrong. It depends on how well the WizOs do their jobs. Just because there's an Edition Comparison Forum does not mean that forum will allow edition wars or flames. That's why it should be called an Edition Comparison forum, not an Edition War forum. People who don't want to hear criticism of their preferred edition should stay the hell out of the Edition Comparison forum. Going there and getting upset when someone criticizes any particular edition (or aspect of said edition) is not only being stupid, it's just begging for a punch in the nose. You want to hear people singing the praises of your preferred edition, stay in your edition forum. You want to compare and accept both praise and criticism (and sometimes downright vicious dislike), then you go into the Comparison forum and you act mature enough to handle yourself respectfully. Problem solved. It's fine to mention "I'm really more of a 3E fan" or "I tend to run 3E games" in an OOP forum. It's not ok to come proselytizing for 3E, or "defending" 3E when some OOP gamer says he thinks it sucks or that he's glad he sold his 3E stuff and came back to OOP games. What, do you think it'd be better for him to say it in a 3E forum? Use some common sense. Again, the same logic applies vice versa to an OOP gamer posting in a 3E forum. If the WizOs enforce such common sense rules, there won't be a problem here. I don't begrudge anyone playing 3E or 3.5E or Epic Level stuff even though I personally consider it all crap. I like Thai food and Indian food, you like Italian food and Chinese food. Neither one of us is "right or wrong", just don't keep shoving your plate under my nose and then act surprised when you find your meal dumped in your lap. I'm not anti-3E-gamers. I'm don't judge people by the edition they play (or don't play as the case may be). It's not hard to get along with people from various editions if people would just grasp the concept of free speech and shrug off the ridiculous political correctness infecting our society, the emasculatory trend wherein it's acceptable (even encouraged) to be offended every time someone says something you don't agree with. So I'm asking everyone who wants peace to descend on these boards to support the creation of an Edition Comparison board, and to chill out while WizO_Paradox works on it. For the first time in 4 years, a WizO is actually trying to step up to the plate and DO something about it. I've talked to him off-site about it. While the general track record here at WOTC on the matter is dismal at best, I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt that he's going to fix this problem once and for all. I'm going to tone down my criticism of the WizOs and WOTC while we see how this plays out. I don't expect this to take until Xmas or something, but I also realize it can't jump into being 24 hours from now. WizO_Paradox needs authorization, they need to finalize policy, they need to do the physical work of creating the boards. I figure perhaps a week or two at most. Anyway, let's call a truce for a bit so that WizO_Paradox can focus on the solution instead of spending time watching us argue. We all retreat to our respective "edition backyards" and cool off, and see if this gets done. If it does, the problem is solved. And of course, that's a good thing. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 2] Author : Kheldren Date : 05-20-04 04:53 AM Nice post :) And I think people shoud express support on this - it may help WizO_Paradox. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 3] Author : Halaster-Blackcloak Date : 05-20-04 05:15 AM Thanks! :) I sure hope it happens. Even though some people are moaning and complaining about it, the fact is that the problem has been ongoing for 4 years. We can wave our fingers and chastise people for not being able to get along, but it's obviously not going to change on its own. People who can't/won't understand why the OOP board should be entitled to the same on-topic rules as other boards should not be offering their opinions. People who haven't been around and don't know the history and facts should also butt out. We're not asking for anything more than fair application of rules. Dragonsfoot had the very same system and it worked fine except that they allowed for fights over editions and it tended to get very heated and personal. That's not how it'll be set up here obviously (hopefully, otherwise what's the point?). Since it's going to be something like the Edition Melting Pot or the Edition Comparison forum, that strips the confrontational tone that "Edition Wars" encouraged. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 4] Author : Capn Charlie Date : 05-20-04 05:57 AM I play DnD. The specifics are trivial at best. Why the hell does it seem so damnedly important for people to wail about small differences? The greatest gulf of difference between any tow editions is insignifigant compared to rpgs and damn near any other game ever made. This is just pointless. What happened to the good old days, when we made fun of people who don't game? Or at least just non dnd rpg players. The useless ill will here solves nothing. It accomplishes nothing. About the only solution I can think of at this point, shy of us all just getting along(yeah right) is just a big, bloody, grand melee and let us see who is standing after the dust settles. If we had some massive place away from the enforced corporate concerns here, and just got the bloodshed out of the "nice part of town" so to speak we might get somewhere. And with the influx of america's youth, the flames will be fanned ever higher. Sure things will eventually calm back down to the simmer that we have begin to think of as "quiet" times. To continue with Halaster's pressure cooker metaphor, I say we need not a pleasent little outlet to keep things barely under control, but pressure valve to let the steam out of this pressure cooker. Then we might be able to finally open up the pot, and see what we have. I just hope it is palatable. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 5] Author : Incenjucar Date : 05-20-04 06:03 AM While the need for it doesn't say much for humanity's ways, at this point, it's probably best to make a seperate area for people who get uppity about mentions of 3e, put it somewhere where nobody will bother them, and then the rest of us who can keep from having fits when someone asks if a feat existed in 2e (Ninja's hanbook, baby) can get back to constructive conversations. If something starts to fester, burn it off so you can heal. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 6] Author : Yorlum Date : 05-20-04 06:57 AM I haven't been one of the more spirited or eloquent verbal gladiators here, but I agree with Halaster. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 7] Author : Halaster-Blackcloak Date : 05-20-04 07:18 AM Capn Charlie wrote: About the only solution I can think of at this point, shy of us all just getting along(yeah right) is just a big, bloody, grand melee and let us see who is standing after the dust settles. If it were up to me, trust me, all hell would break loose. I'd do just that...let everyone duke it out, no holds barred. No wussy PG-13 style fighting either! It'd be life and death, take no prisoners, X-rated kill or be killed arguments. :smirk: But since the CoC doesn't allow for that, we need to do something else. ;) If we had some massive place away from the enforced corporate concerns here And I think there are a few basic steps that WOTC can take to dispel the atmosphere that causes so many of us to feel shafted and disrespected. Creating an Edition Comparison forum and fairly enforcing the rules against edition bashing and off topic talk would certainly help dispel the perception of corporate tyranny on the boards. To continue with Halaster's pressure cooker metaphor, I say we need not a pleasent little outlet to keep things barely under control, but pressure valve to let the steam out of this pressure cooker. Then we might be able to finally open up the pot, and see what we have. I agree. But since that won't ever happen, the next best thing is to take the matches out of the powder kegs and put them in a fireproof box. Which is exactly what an Edition Comparison forum does. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 8] Author : WizO_Catoblepas Date : 05-20-04 12:44 PM Ok, these boards are for the discussion of Out of Print material, not the discussion of board moderation. Thus, I'm going to close this thread since it is off the subject of Out of Print material However, as a rule, we do not allow threads on the boards that question moderation styles. If you wish to discuss moderation styles, please do not hesitate to e-mail me and I would be more than happy to clarify. If you do not feel confortable discussing it with me, please do not hesitate to e-mail WizO_Paradox since he is the lead moderator of the RPG boards. He is my supervisor. The important point is that there are avenues of redress if you have an issue with moderation styles. However, the boards is not one of them. I know that this thread is meant to have a positive take on the issue, and I find that agree with much of it. However, the point is that this board is not the place for discussion of moderation styles, whether they are positive or negative. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Downloaded from Wizards Community (http://forums.gleemax.com) at 05-10-08 08:20 AM.