* * * Wizards Community Thread * * * -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Thread : tiamat vs thakisis Started at 05-20-04 05:07 PM by skathros Visit at http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=243293 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 1] Author : skathros Date : 05-20-04 05:07 PM Thread Title : tiamat vs thakisis are the two the same? Is thakisis derived from Tiamat? My memory tell me that Bahamut was het enemy (tiamat, that is), is my memory faulty? If so, where was this relationship stated. I havent found it in their respective entry in the MM (AD&D)? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 2] Author : T. Foster Date : 05-20-04 05:39 PM Tiamat is the proper name given to the Chromatic Dragon in the Monster Manual (and Bahamut is the proper name given to the Platinum Dragon). I believe both names come from real world Babylonian (?) mythology but that's outside my area of expertise. Thakisis was the name given to the Tiamat-equivalent figure (demigod Queen of the Evil Dragons with 5 heads, one of each evil dragon type) in the Dragonlance setting, but I believe there were enough setting-specific differences that they shouldn't really be considered the same creature (if memory serves Thakisis was prortayed as much more powerful than Tiamat is in the MM). -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 3] Author : T. Foster Date : 05-20-04 05:42 PM Ahh, I should've read your post more clearly -- you found the entries in the MM, you just didn't find any mention of Tiamat and Bahamut being enemies there. Since you've obviously read the entries more recently than I have I'll take your word that it's not mentioned there. That being the case, I suppose it's probably not mentioned anywhere and was just a commonly held assumption by the fans -- that the Queen of Evil Dragons and the King of Good Dragons must be mortal enemies! Makes sense, dontcha think... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 4] Author : q'afuu Date : 05-20-04 05:47 PM Originally posted by skathros are the two the same? They are one and the same. Bahamut/Paladine is the greatest God of Light on Krynn, while Tiamat/Takhisis is the Krynnish patron Goddess of Darkness. Council of Wyrms has a lot of info on both and their relationship, iirc. Anything to do with Dragonlance mythology will tell you more as well. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 5] Author : Falstaff the Fighter Date : 05-20-04 06:25 PM They are one and the same. No, they are not. The first poster had it right, for 1e at least. Tiamat and Takhisis are two seperate beings. Council of Wyrms deals with the real Bahamut and Tiamat, not the Dragonlace aliases of Paladine and Tahkisis. Tiamat is the queen of chromatic dragons and Takhisis is a goddess from Krynn who happens to take on Tiamat's form as an aspect of her own. The two are not the same though. In this set up, Tahkisis, since she was an actual deity, would have trounced Tiamat. In 2e, Tiamat was generally promoted to true godhood levels, at least on a variety of worlds. As such, she became multi-sphereic, while Tahkisis remained mono-sphereic, meaning the situation was reversed ). Tiamat would utterly own Tahkisis in a fight in 2e. See On Hallowed Ground and Faith and Pantheons 2e. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 6] Author : skathros Date : 05-20-04 06:32 PM thanks guys -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 7] Author : vader42xx Date : 05-21-04 02:58 AM Those who created the Dragonlance universe (Hickman, Weis, etc) have stated in several interviews that Tiamat and Bahamut have nothing to do with the Dragonlance world. And Paladine and Thakisis have nothing to do with other worlds. Both "sets" are mortal enemies however (as has been described in several publications for both sets of draconic gods). Hope that helps, and if you're looking for more information (like where Hickman and/or Weis stated the above) you can take a look at the Dragonlance forum, they're usually pretty helpful about this sort of thing. :) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 8] Author : Falstaff the Fighter Date : 05-21-04 03:35 AM Paladine and Tahkisis are, in older editions, what is called mon-sphereic deities, meaning they are worshipped only in a single crystal sphere. They know of the other worlds, but make no effort to be worshipped there. Multi-sphereic deities are worshiped on the various worlds of the prime, and as such, are much more powerful, even when compared to a single sphereic deity of the same type (Great multisphereic deities are more powerful than greater single sphereic deities, for example.). -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 9] Author : skathros Date : 05-21-04 03:55 PM Originally posted by Falstaff the Fighter Multi-sphereic deities are worshiped on the various worlds of the prime, Like Loth (Lloth?)? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 10] Author : Amaron Blackthorn Date : 05-27-04 03:31 PM The relationship, as far as I know, has never been fully explained. How can Tiamat be a lesser goddess and Takhisis be a greater one, and dead at that? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 11] Author : Falstaff the Fighter Date : 05-27-04 06:48 PM The relationship, as far as I know, has never been fully explained. How can Tiamat be a lesser goddess and Takhisis be a greater one, and dead at that? Because they are not the same deity. They just share a similar aspect. Like Loth (Lloth?)? Exactly. Lloth, in older editions, was the same Lloth throughout the multiverse. She just maintained different apsects of herself on different worlds. She drew upon a multiverse worth of faith, meaning that if she sqaured off against a similarly ranked deity, but for only one world, she would stomp them. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 12] Author : Amaron Blackthorn Date : 06-29-04 02:29 PM Why would a god or goddess be lesser in one world while a greater in another? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 13] Author : Cyan Wisp Date : 06-29-04 08:36 PM Oops, a bit late on it.... The Planescape (2E) perspective, which takes into account pretty much any god from any Prime Plane setting, has an ambiguous view on these entities: Tiamat, Lady of Dragonkind, guards the gates between Avernus, the first layer of Baator (The Nine Hells) and Dis, the second layer. No one is sure whether this is the same being as Takhisis. Seems like menial work for a goddess. Some venture that Tiamat is a reflection of Takhisis, while others say that Takhisis merely prefers the form of the five-headed chromatic dragon as one of her avatars. But, this aside, Tiamat had stats in the 1E MM (and not very good ones at that - a 16th level monk could actually Quivering Palm her! :uh-huh: ) and 1E Dragonlance had VERY different stats for Takhisis, a Greater Goddess. In 2E, Tiamat was elevated to Lesser Goddess status in Monster Mythology. This book stated that, in Dragonlance, Takhisis is strongly identified with Tiamat, and different stats would be needed in that world (suggesting that they are one and the same, She is just much stronger in Krynn). I never read any 2E Dragonlance products, so I don't know their stance on this. Also in Monster Mythology, the relationship between Bahamut and Tiamat is hinted at: "Bahamut often tries to stymie such carnage and destruction [Tiamat laying waste to areas in order to make way for evil dragons], which enrages [Tiamat]." "[Bahamut is] ever watchful against the actions of Tiamat." "[Bahamut] does not act directly in the Prime Material Plane unless to check Tiamat." As for Bahamut being Paladine... strange that "both" entities like to appear as a wizened, befuddled old man (like Fizban(?)perhaps?). I think Weis/Hickman just borrowed the ideas of Tiamat and Bahamut to develop flavoursome chief gods for their dracocentric campaign world, and did it well. :cool: -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 14] Author : DmJoeSolarte Date : 06-29-04 09:14 PM I mentioned this in another thread, that they would have done a great service to have included the DragonLance Deity's in the DEITYS AND DEMIGODS books, if only that it would prevent us from using homebrewed stuff over the years. In any case, yes, they could have included a little blurb that "Tiamat is not Takhisis, but can be if the DM so chooses" and left it at that. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 15] Author : Kuje31 Date : 06-29-04 09:30 PM Look, On Hallowed Ground is pretty darn clear on this. Neither of the two deities are the same. Takhisis resides on Baator/Avernus/Abthalom. Tiamat resides on Baator/Avernus/Tiamat's Lair. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 16] Author : DmJoeSolarte Date : 06-30-04 01:46 AM Well, what are the odd's? What are the odd's that there are TWO 5-headed Dragons which in some way spawn Dragon kind in two seperates worlds? I just think it would not have killed htem to have made them one and the same. I remember seeing somewhere they described Paladine as being an Avatar of Bahamut, but that was a long time ago. Oh well. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 17] Author : Kuje31 Date : 06-30-04 02:50 AM Originally posted by DmJoeSolarte Well, what are the odd's? What are the odd's that there are TWO 5-headed Dragons which in some way spawn Dragon kind in two seperates worlds? I just think it would not have killed htem to have made them one and the same. I remember seeing somewhere they described Paladine as being an Avatar of Bahamut, but that was a long time ago. Oh well. Because Tiamat is multispheric, while Takhisis is not.... Shrug the other's explained this already. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 18] Author : Amaron Blackthorn Date : 06-30-04 10:58 AM Something official should be stated about this to clear up the confusion. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 19] Author : Kuje31 Date : 06-30-04 01:21 PM Originally posted by Amaron Blackthorn Something official should be stated about this to clear up the confusion. Um On Hallowed Ground is official! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 20] Author : Amaron Blackthorn Date : 06-30-04 01:22 PM I am not familiar with that product, what does it state? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 21] Author : Kuje31 Date : 06-30-04 02:21 PM Originally posted by Amaron Blackthorn I am not familiar with that product, what does it state? Scroll up and read my first reply. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 22] Author : Amaron Blackthorn Date : 07-01-04 12:25 PM thanks for making unclear ambigiuty clear ambigiuty! :) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Downloaded from Wizards Community (http://forums.gleemax.com) at 05-10-08 08:17 AM.