* * * Wizards Community Thread * * * -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Thread : Newer Creatures...Older Game Started at 05-28-04 02:48 AM by Glorified_Suffering Visit at http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=247995 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 1] Author : Glorified_Suffering Date : 05-28-04 02:48 AM Thread Title : Newer Creatures...Older Game Has anyone ever used the newer "savage creatures" or whatever they're called of the newer edition D&D in a 2nd edition game?...The group that I play with is going entirely by 2nd edition's rules, and we use the 2nd edition Player's Handbook and DMG and everything else...we're just using some newer playable characters. so far I'm playing the role of a Half-Angel(the DM and myself couldn't find this paticular class anywhere so we just created it from scratch)...and someone else in the group is playing a Half-Orc -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 2] Author : RobertFisher Date : 05-28-04 10:02 AM There's a long tradition of this sort of thing in D&D. To quote the original Men & Magic booklet... Other Character Types: There is no reason that players cannot be allowed to play as virtually anything, provided they begin relatively weak and work up to the top, i.e., a player wishing to be a Dragon would have to begin as let us say, a "young" one and progress upwards in the usual manner, steps being predetermined by the campaign referee. J. Eric Holmes, who edited the original Basic Set, said in a Dragon article that he'd had a dragon PC in his campaign for a long time. We did it some in my high school OAD&D days, but due to immaturity on our part it never worked out very well. We found it best for PCs to stick to the written guidelines & formal house rules as much as possible. Anything custom for a particular player would usually end up as a source of friction. So, by the time 2e was out, this was verboten in my group. I'd be open to the idea again now that I'm a bit older & wiser. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 3] Author : OlafTheUnbathed Date : 05-28-04 10:04 AM As I recall this was one of the issues that delineated the Basic D&Ds from AD&D? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 4] Author : Yorlum Date : 05-28-04 11:00 AM There is certainly an uncomprimising comdemnation of the idea in the 1ed DMG. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 5] Author : Dugald the Lexicographer Date : 05-28-04 01:15 PM Nothing wrong with that as long as the group and the DM agree on how it will be implemented. The danger is in making a powerful creature into a PC, which gives that character advantages the other players don't have. That could lead to a lot of friction, and people won't enjoy the game. I'd be very careful in selecting races. We recently had a player take an Avariel, a winged elf, as a PC. Having one character who could fly at will was very difficult to manage, but not impossible. I warned the player that Avariel wings were incredibly flammable, which ended up being the doom of this character (there was a battle with treants, and the party's mage started lobbing fireballs, which quickly turned the battlefield into a storm of glowing embers). My point being that as long as you make sure to balance a strong ability with some kind of drawback, it doesn't have to overshadow the rest of the characters. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 6] Author : Yorlum Date : 05-28-04 02:23 PM Originally posted by Dugald the Lexicographer My point being that as long as you make sure to balance a strong ability with some kind of drawback, it doesn't have to overshadow the rest of the characters. And my counterpoint is that the only way to give a 'monster' character drawbacks are to make them social drawbacks, which tend, (IME YMMV) to either be glossed over by the DM, or spill over to the rest of the party. EG, Player A is a two-sword-wielding Drow Ranger with a Pet Cat. To balance all of his extra powers, the DM plays up the milieu's antipathy to drow. Now the rest of the party are tarred as 'drow lovers' OR the DM has to ignore the antipathy, which gives player A all the pleasure and none of the pain. DM's, just say "No" to Monsters as PCs... You'll be glad you did. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 7] Author : Gandalf_Istari Date : 05-28-04 03:30 PM Personally I have always tried to distinguish between monster characters that would be too overpowered as PC's and those who can be set up to begin and advance much as a regular PC race does. For example, I allow lizardmen, half-ogres, kenku, and thri-kreen as races for PC's in my campaigns (usually), because it is easy to tone them down to a first level character's ability and make it so they can advance as any other PC race. If their innate special abilities seem too powerful for a first level PC, I just stretch them out over levels so that the player's character doesn't get them until they advance in levels. In other words, the character can "grow" into its full abilities over time and through gaining experience and levels. Even the "normal" PC races in my campaign I have always tinkered with to make them the way I want them for my campaign, and while some of them gain powers and abilities over time that are quite beneficial, its takes experience and levels to gain them, and there are always negatives to balance out those extra abilities (such as vulnerabilities, stat modifiers, alignment and/or class restrictions, social and culture disadvantages, experience penalties, etc.) That being said, I've always held that most monsters are simply too powerful and unbalancing to campaigns to be allowed as PC's. Playing dragons, demons, illithids, etc., seems too much for my personal gaming tastes, and seems to detract from game play overall in my experience. Even characters that become infected with lycanthrope or vampirism I eventually force to become NPC's (unless they get cured somehow), as I think they are either too powerful or too incompatable with the rest of the "normal" player races. Just my personal preferences. :cool: -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 8] Author : Dugald the Lexicographer Date : 05-28-04 03:50 PM Originally posted by Yorlum And my counterpoint is that the only way to give a 'monster' character drawbacks are to make them social drawbacks, which tend, (IME YMMV) to either be glossed over by the DM, or spill over to the rest of the party. As in my example of the Avariel, social drawbacks are not the only hinderances. Special weaknesses (Drow are not happy in sunlight, as I recall), additional XP requirements, spreading their natural or innate abilities out over several levels ... there are ways to balance the advantages. But it's not simple, and it's up to the DM to watchguard against an unbalanced situation. I don't argue that it CAN get out of hand, and it's certainly easier to lay down the law and not accept anything but the races listed in the PHB. But if a player has a real desire to do something unusual, and you feel you can handle the request, it doesn't have to ruin the game. As with all rules: it's up to the DM to decide whether it will benefit the game, or cause problems. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 9] Author : Dugald the Lexicographer Date : 05-28-04 04:05 PM Originally posted by Gandalf_Istari Personally I have always tried to distinguish between monster characters that would be too overpowered as PC's and those who can be set up to begin and advance much as a regular PC race does. Sounds like a great approach. Personally, I shudder at the idea of a player creating a dragon PC. Sounds like a nightmare to try and balance with a bunch of run-of-the-mill characters! One place the more powerful races could work is in one-on-one games, where player dynamic is no longer an issue. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 10] Author : Glorified_Suffering Date : 05-28-04 04:16 PM Thread Title : Here's the character I'm playing.. Half Angel: (Hit Dice: 2d6-1) Prime Requisites: Con-14 Wis-16 Cha-16 Experience: Lvl.1- 3,500 Lvl.2- 7,000 Lvl.3- 14,000 Lvl.4- 28,000 Lvl.5- 56,000 Lvl.6- 120,000 Lvl.7- 250,000 Lvl.8- 1,000,000 (Attain Full Angel Status) Racial Adjusts: Cha- (+1) Wis- (+1) Str- (-1) Transformation: (Deals 1d4+2 Damage) Grow Wings: Once at Lvl.1 Twice at Lvl.3 3x’s at Lvl.5 4x’s at Lvl.7 Note: Must successfully roll system shock or fall into a coma for 2d10 days. Must stay an angel for # of rounds equal to Con. While in angel form, can cast priest spells 1 level above. *Causes fear. Party members must save vs. paralyzation or be paralyzed with fear for 1d6+1 rounds (levels 4-6). 7th level party members don’t need to save. Angel Form Special Abilities:((can only be used when in angel form)) Healing Hands (as with a Paladin) Priest Spells Fly Aura of Protection Detect Evil/Evil Intent (at level 7 can be used in human form) Turn undead 3 levels above Regenerate 1 HP per 4 rounds +4 to saving throws Wing HP 10+½ character’s HP, roll ¼ system shock when wings reach 0 HP or coma for 2d10 days. Wings can be used as a shield with a +2 AC per wing. Wings are immune to magic Immune to charm, hold and similar spells Can use Heaven’s voice when HP are between 1 and 5, once a week. Heaven’s Voice: Regenerate 2d6 per level to self Deals 1d6 at level1 2d6 at level 2 3d6 at level 3 4d6 at level 4 5d6 at level 5 6d6 at level 6 7d6 at level 7 --No Saving throw can be made for Heaven’s Voice- Limitations: Weapons: Dagger Bardiche Spear Fauchard Spetum Quarter Staff Short Sword Long Sword Scimitar Trident Whip Armor: Buckler Small Shield Scale Mail Studded Leather Ring Mail Leather or Padded Chain Mail Alignment: Must be same as the God that is served. Treasure: Can not be kept. All treasure found must be donated to a shrine or temple of chosen God. Can only take donations. Max. height - 6’6” Weight allow is halved when flying. Wings can not be impeded. They must have room to sprout. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 11] Author : RobertFisher Date : 06-01-04 03:45 PM Originally posted by OlafTheUnbathed As I recall this was one of the issues that delineated the Basic D&Ds from AD&D? That is a good point. Incidentally, I once played in a GURPS fantasy campaign in which we were free to create our own race with Fantasy Folk. (Coincidentally I played a winged humanoid.) There are some pitfalls to watch out for there, but GURPS perhaps lends itself towards doing this is a balanced way better than D&D or AD&D. For those who can enjoy GURPS. That may have been my favorite GURPS campaign. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Downloaded from Wizards Community (http://forums.gleemax.com) at 05-10-08 08:20 AM.