* * * Wizards Community Thread * * * -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Thread : Infavision Started at 05-29-04 12:12 AM by vejono Visit at http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=248503 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 1] Author : vejono Date : 05-29-04 12:12 AM Thread Title : Infavision Ok well darkvision and low-light vision are pretty well explained in 3rd edition on how one would see with those visions. However reading about infravision confuses me. Would it look like Predators heat vision? Is there a red aura around the person? Help please. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 2] Author : Glorified_Suffering Date : 05-29-04 12:43 AM from what I understand that's exactly how it would look...like infrared...you can't quite see the exact details but you can see the heat signature and make out the shape and possibly type of animal or being. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 3] Author : blackprinceofmuncie Date : 05-29-04 02:51 AM Some relevant passages from the 1e DMG: As explained in the Player's Handbook, infravision is the ability to see light waves in the infrared spectrum. Characters and various creatures with infravisual capability out to 60' are basically picking up radiation from their surroundings. Therefore, they note differences in thermal radiation, hot or cold. They do not "see" things which are the same temperature as their surroundings. Thus, a room in a dungeon might look completely blank, as walls, floor, ceiling, and possibly even some wooden furniture within are all of the same temperature. Openings in the walls should show up rather plainly, as space anywhere else will, and if you are generous, you can allow different substances to radiate differently even if at the same temperature, i.e. the wood in the example above would be discernible if care was used in scanning the room infravisually. Vision of this sort is roughly equivalent to human norm on a dark and cloudy night at best. Note also that monsters of a very cold or very warm sort (such as human) can be tracked infravisually by their footprints. Such tracking must occur within 2 rounds (minutes) of their passing or the temperature difference where they had trodden will dissipate. Light sources which give off heat also absolutely prevent normal infravision from functioning within their sphere of illumination. Creatures with infravisual capability of unusual nature, such as those which see infravisually to 90' are actually emitting infrared radiation from their eyes and seeing what is within this visual range by receiving the reflected radiation. Such creatures can easily distinguish floor, ceiling, wall and other areas, as well as furnishings within an area. The eyes of all such creatures will appear as very brightly glowing red when observed by any other creature with standard infravision. Most monsters inhabiting underground areas will have this form of infravision. From the description, it sounds like the 1st type of vision would be like "Predator-vision". The 2nd "emitter" type would be much sharper and more detailed. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 4] Author : vader42xx Date : 05-29-04 02:57 AM Infravision can be used two ways, right out of the box that is. :) You have the complex and standard version which has been talked about above. And, yes, that looks and functions exactly like the predators heat vision. On a side note, if you use this version, you may want to allow underdark theives (drow theives, etc) the ability to "hide in infra-shadows" at the same chance to hide in shadows. The standard thief hide in shadows ability is worthless when someone uses infranvisoion against it. After all, you may be hidden to normal sight just fine but for someone who can actually see the temperature of your body and the temperature of the air around you, you're not hidden at all. :smirk: The other method is "simple infravision" which functions either like darkvision from 3e or even better, in that it could function like darkvision but still allow the creature to see color. I don't recomend that however. I use the complex version myself as it's more fun but the simple version requires less work for you. As a side note, on the D&D site you can find (in the downloads section) an article explaining how complex infravision works with regards to reading, etc. Enjoy. :) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 5] Author : Incenjucar Date : 05-29-04 06:26 AM In homage to infravision and pit vipers, I have a 'heat sense' going for my ulari race. It's 3e, but it's pretty easy to translate between editions, since there's no rolling. What I have is only sane for character races in low amounts, but a monster could have it and be rather effective. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 6] Author : Varl Date : 05-30-04 02:23 PM I read an article over here (http://www.frontiernet.net/~jamesstarlight/Infravision.html) that details Infravision to almost scientific levels. If that's your thing, you might find it interesting. There's also a discourse from Sean K. Reynolds on his website yielding his concerns over Infravision, and why it doesn't work according to him. One of his arguments against infravision was the inability to not see a creature emitting infrared energy beyond a creature's listed Infravisual sight range, i.e. could a dwarf see something as large as a red dragon at 65 feet, considering how much raw heat energy it would be shedding? Interesting thought. Of course, I think the dwarf could see the red at that range (despite the 60' rule); I'd just rule that the creature's heat signature can be seen, but not clearly identified as to its nature because the further away the creature is beyond a creature's listed range of infravision, the cooler it would become and the more its signature would blur together. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 7] Author : vader42xx Date : 05-30-04 04:08 PM That argument applies to all sight ranges in D&D, and any other game. That's like saying the 20 foot range of a torch is silly. And, well, really it is. But every system in a game has to have some sort of limit. Those "red dragon heat signatures" are why we have DMs. :) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 8] Author : Silverthrone Date : 05-30-04 07:12 PM I agree with Vader. Some line has to be drawn. Why is it silly to suppose that infravisual sight could be so limited? If you presume that the eyes of a normal infravision creature are set up to see heat, then perhaps they can only detect the source at a set distance as part of their biologcial make up. LIke how farsighted people are blind beyond a certain point. With monster that produce a "field" like sonar type thing (The 90ft infravision creatures.), the explanation is even easier. The field simply has a concrete range and does not exist outside it. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 9] Author : vader42xx Date : 05-31-04 02:20 AM I'm not so sure that I'd "dead end" the sight range (any sight range for that matter). I'd probably do more like what Varl was talking about. After your listed sight range you just can't see well enough to make anything out. That, of course, changes with the size of certain objects, etc. But the listed sight range is the limit of your ability to be certain that you can make out details. Beyond that, it's up to the DM to decide based on current conditions. The only time I would use a "dead end" limit to sight is in bad weather or similar conditions where it makes sense that you would not be able to see beyond the listed range. I was just pointing out that any kind of "sight range" in a game is going to look a little silly if you start trying to put it in real world terms. Eyes just don't work like that. We don't see for 20 feet and then everything is a world of darkness. The last few feet (sometimes yards or more even) of our "sight distance" sort of tappers off into shades of gray, etc depending on the conditions. But, anyway, so long as you're not punishing your players what difference does it really make how you do it? :) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 10] Author : Varl Date : 05-31-04 03:01 AM I was just pointing out that any kind of "sight range" in a game is going to look a little silly if you start trying to put it in real world terms. I agree. While discourses like Sean's and the one on that website are entertaining reads for what they're worth, I'm not really interested in taking infra to that level. Give characters the ability to see heat out to their racial maximums with fairly good clarity, and then just bleed off temperature and detail from there on out, until eventually the creature is just too far away to measure any kind of measurable signature. That's how I'd run it, and I do. ;) That, of course, changes with the size of certain objects, etc. But the listed sight range is the limit of your ability to be certain that you can make out details. Precisely. This is key. Creature size should play a direct role in distance and detail imo. This is one of those rules that, if someone makes up hard rules for creature size in relation to infravision, great, but it's not mandatory to do so. I think most DMs should be able to wing this well enough to judge how much heat and detail a creature with infravision is capable of seeing on a case-by-case basis. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 11] Author : RobertFisher Date : 06-01-04 04:16 PM Originally posted by vader42xx That's like saying the 20 foot range of a torch is silly. And, well, really it is. That's not silly. A scoutmaster used to demonstrate this to us to convince us that we shouldn't walk around with our flashlights on all the time. Walk around with a torch in the dark & your vision range is limited. Douse the torch & let your eyes adjust to the moonlight, & your vision range is only limited by shadows & obstacles. And the shadows usually aren't dark enough to be too much trouble. Flashlights are more like bullseye lanterns, but you could get some idea of what a torch would be like with a normal lantern. Now, the flashlight is still good to have handy when you need to see details. Of course, in a dungeon, the torch may be needed to see at all, but the way it limits vision remains. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 12] Author : Incenjucar Date : 06-02-04 12:48 AM That's why my personal "Heat Sense" system includes range changes based on the size and heat relative to the environment of the individual. You can sense a forest fire in the arctic much further than you can sense a pixie in a luke-warm room. It's not entirely hard, but if you pull full logic in to it, then you have to figure out how much is logically visible, how much is absorbed by wind and such... a happy medium isn't too bad though. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 13] Author : vader42xx Date : 06-02-04 01:32 AM Sure it's silly, if you read what I said. :) I didn't say that a torch wouldn't limit your vision...I said that those limited weren't a brick wall. At the limits of your vision (torch or whatever) it doesn't just become a wall of blackness that you can't see past. Depending on your eyes, the light source, etc your visions starts to "trail off" it doesn't just fall off the end of the world. My point wasn't that a torch should not limit your vision. My point was that some common sense should be applied to it, just like Incenjucar said. If you're standing in the middle of the woods with that torch and a t-rex is standing 22 feet away from you, trust me, you'll still see that at least something is there. :D -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 14] Author : Algolei Date : 06-03-04 06:55 AM Unless he's a ninja t-rex. Then a roll of some kind might be involved. Infravision sounds pretty simple to me. Objects radiate light which we can't normally see because it's beyond our perception, but critters with infravision can see it. Then you've got the concept of new colours, and the whole "radiant light" versus "reflected light," and fiddle! I mean, viola! There ya go. The problem comes when you introduce reality to the mix. Some things don't reflect certain wavelengths of light. For instance, we can see through glass because wavelengths within our visual spectrum can pass through it. But some infrared wavelengths can't do that. However, you could get another material, like graphite, that lets some infrared wavelengths pass through but blocks our visual spectrum completely--that means somebody with infravision could be looking at you through a wall! Without a handy-dandy infrared scope to play around with, we can't gain the personal experience necessary to really understand what someone with infravision might be seeing. That makes DMing it a bit of a problem, especially if you're an uptight gotta-know-everything type (like me) or a rules lawyer with just enough information to make the DM's life a living hell (like three of my players have been over the years). -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 15] Author : vader42xx Date : 06-03-04 08:34 AM Ok, I'll give you the ninja-t-rex. :D I just honestly can't argue with that. ;) As for the reality, I agree. That's why I refuse to let too much reality creep into my fantasy. I have just enough to make the world run like you would expect it to where you should be able to "expect" anything. Other than that, I use game balance and fun over reality. :) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 16] Author : imayb1 Date : 06-03-04 09:09 PM Thread Title : Infravision Explained Article in Dragon Magazine, November 1994. "Sight in the Darkness" It is a nice explanation and I use it for underground races. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 17] Author : vader42xx Date : 06-04-04 03:10 AM Just a little note, the article that I pointed people to on the WotC D&D site is a reprint of that Dragon magazine. I'm told that it's updated and corrected but as I don't have the original, I don't know how so. Anyway, for those of you who can't get at that Dragon, check out the site. :) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Downloaded from Wizards Community (http://forums.gleemax.com) at 05-10-08 08:20 AM.