* * * Wizards Community Thread * * * -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Thread : 2nd ed material components Started at 06-16-04 04:51 AM by Megalomania Visit at http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=259480 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 1] Author : Megalomania Date : 06-16-04 04:51 AM Thread Title : 2nd ed material components I've been running a 2nd ed AD&D game (located in cormyr, forgotten realms) for quite a few years now. At this point my players have managed to attain the level at which they are able to cast third level spells (like fireball, lightningbolt etc). When my campaign started (about 4 years ago) it seemed like a great idea to leave out the material components for the wizards and priests. But right now, I'm in doubt, I fear my players become too powerful using the higher level spells without the material components. My question is, how do you guys handle material components in your game? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 2] Author : vader42xx Date : 06-16-04 05:20 AM I use them just as the PHB suggests because I happen to agree with your fears. I find that wizards, clerics, and especially bards can become quite nasty without that drawback. After all you wouldn't let a fighter use his sword if he didn't have it with him would you? ;) Anyway, in my games spellcasters are required to have (and use) components. Anything that seems easy enough to get (up to and including small iron rods, little glass beads, etc) I just assume the players have. That is, of course, if they make some small effort to roleplay it (like having the spellcaster root through the nearby bushes while the party eats dinner or whatever, nothing huge). Anything that actually has any cost to it, I make the player go out of his way to get (even if "out of his way" only means a little money). On the same subject, I don't usually keep track of "free" items unless the wizard has gone a long time without even the smallest amount of roleplaying to gather his components or the character has spent a long time in an area where he couldn't find the needed components. Those items that do require effort to pick up I keep track of however. And, no matter what component I'm dealing with, if they are taken away the wizard can't cast spells (assuming they need material components). So if said wizard is stripped down to his brown underobes and tossed in the local dungeon then he's probably in trouble. :) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 3] Author : Fearless Date : 06-16-04 05:56 AM Originally posted by vader42xx After all you wouldn't let a fighter use his sword if he didn't have it with him would you? ;) I take it you don't charge your fighters 50gp for every swing they make either? As that is what material components sound to me. Yes I'm one of the wizards that can cast lvl 3 spells at Mega's campaign. From what I read, material components are just another way to leave a wizard without money. I already pay allot of money to learn the spells. while the fighter just buys his sword/armor and is done, spending the rest of his money to potions and beer :P. A wizard needs items aswell, beyond the spells that eat away all the cash we mages get. Sure it makes wizards a bit more powerfull, but wizards are ment to be powerfull after a few levels, that is the power we wizards waited for when were level 1 and had only 4-6 hitpoints and fight like sissies. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 4] Author : vader42xx Date : 06-16-04 06:07 AM No, but I don't charge a wizard 50gp for the bit of fur and glass rod needed to cast lightning bolt either (free components with minor roleplaing). Nor the tiny ball of bat guano and sulphur which are also free for fireball. Or the sand for sleep, etc, etc. And why you're paying money to learn spells is beyond me but that's up to your DM. In my games you'd find it hard to find a wizard who is willing to let you copy from his spellbook for any amount of money. Now he might make you a scroll which you could buy but that would be the exception. I don't do "magic items for sale" campaigns. My players find spells by running through dungeons, searching musty book cases, and by capturing the spellbooks of defeated spellcasters. But, hey, that's just me. :) Spell components are in place to keep spellcasters from getting out of hand. Which is why some of the more powerful spells have hard to find and/or expensive components while some of the lower level or more universal spells (while still being good) have easy to find (read: free) components that don't cost you a thing except a little roleplaying muscle and a bit of space on your character sheet. :) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 5] Author : Fearless Date : 06-16-04 06:13 AM Well the official rules state that every spell need to be researched. And research cost allot of money and time. useing a scroll cuts the research time in half, thus saving 50% on research costs, but costs money aswell, unless you find a scroll. We however need just the scroll and 50% of the research time to get the spell and research without scrolls hasn't happend yet(always on the run these days). Thus I already pay like 500gp or so for a lvl 2 spell, and with components I sometimes need to pay 50-5000gp for just casting 1 spell(shapeshift and wall of force each require a diamont worth 5000gp). -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 6] Author : vader42xx Date : 06-16-04 06:18 AM No, spells only need to be researched if you can't find them. If you have a written version of it (spellbook) you can just check to see if you learn it and then copy it. Under learning new spells in the PHB (page 81) you'll see that all you NEED to do (your DM can add more if he wishes of course) is roll to learn the spell if you can find some place to copy it from. The only time you must research a spell to learn it is if you can't find a copy of it or if you want to make a new spell altogether. That's officially of course, your DM can do whatever he wants. :) Edit: And if your DM is going by the DMG (again he doesn't have to) getting spells from another wizard's spellbook still requires only a roll to learn (no cost). Copying from a scroll does cost half the cost to research the spell however. But that method is the only one listed that costs any money at all. Your best bet for spells is the free one you get for advancing a level, copying from other spellbooks, and learning from a mentor (higher level wizard). None of those cost any money at all. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 7] Author : Megalomania Date : 06-16-04 06:46 AM Until now I have not charged any money for researching scrolls and do not intend to do so for now. I have to agree with vader42xx his method seems quite reasonable. I will first test with just the rules I use now and perhaps later introduce the material components. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 8] Author : Fearless Date : 06-16-04 06:49 AM A mentor isn't free, though sometimes can be for whatever reason. We also have never found a spellbook yet, but only killed 1 wizard. And how much do you ever encounter a live spellbook? Dungeons usually just get you a couple of scrolls or some vague books that might have something usefull in it. Both require probably some research which can take quite allot of gold. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 9] Author : vader42xx Date : 06-16-04 07:02 AM Most of what you're talking about depends on your DM. Copying from spellbooks of other players or NPCs might not be free and getting spells from a mentor might not be free either. In fact, they probably won't. But they don't have to cost money either. Spells gained that way are perfect adventure hooks. My point was that those methods ARE free unless otherwise stated by your DM. If a crazy old mage wants to let you copy his entire spellbook for free then you don't pay one copper. I was talking about "rules" not "roleplaying" in that case. As for copying spells from scrolls, I don't see the problem with doing it either way. I personally leave it as is but either way seems to work just fine really. If anything, allowing free copying from scrolls is going to allow wizards to gain spells that much faster. Finally, spellbooks don't always have to be huge tomes. My players have often found the "magical workbook" of some ancient wizard who long ago left X dungeon or Y tower. It only contains 3 or 4 spells but it is still a spellbook. It's all up to your DM when talking about how fast you gain those spells and how hard it is for you. But, in the end, once you have them you can use them as often as you want so spell components is a good idea in my eyes. :) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 10] Author : Thailfi Date : 06-16-04 08:26 AM Material components only come into play in our campaign when they are very exotic or expensive or the spellcaster is placed in a situation where he/she would not have access to them. If the player missing a saving throw for fireball, we do make them save for first their component pouch, then for their components, we also save for the backpack, spellbook box and spellbooks We don't roleplay their acquisition just as we do not roleplay a fighter going in to replentish his/her supply of arrows. If you defeat a spellcasting opponent, it is assumed that they have the components necessary to cast the spells they have several times. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 11] Author : Fearless Date : 06-16-04 09:35 AM Originally posted by vader42xx But, in the end, once you have them you can use them as often as you want so spell components is a good idea in my eyes. :) This is very true, once you got the spell you can use it for free every time. But this is true for a fighter aswell. once he learns a WP he can use it for life(unless level drained of course ;-). However spells which are the swords of the wizards should now cost money, or time to find the components and stuff? I don't think so, but that's my idea -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 12] Author : vader42xx Date : 06-16-04 09:37 AM That's basically what I do with the exception of the roleplaying note. I don't just assume a warrior picks up needed arrows, bolts, etc. If he doesn't tell me he wants to buy them then he's out of luck. Same with spell components. ;) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 13] Author : Thailfi Date : 06-16-04 11:23 AM Well yes, the player has to say they are purchasing supplies, but we don't make the guy go through the motions. Mage: Hail good shopkeeper, might I trouble you for a bit of spider web and a rotten egg. Shopkeeper: Well we have plenty of spider web, but we are fresh out of rotten eggs, check with Honest Abe's Arcane Accessories down the street. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 14] Author : Silverthrone Date : 06-16-04 01:15 PM I do not use them in my campaigns because I find it too annoying to keep up with them. However, I do see them as being fair and balanced rules, I just choose not to use them. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 15] Author : Varl Date : 06-16-04 03:39 PM I use them because they add to the game. Gems that double as material components are relegated to cash otherwise. That herb over there? It's just a stick with leaves on it. "Dungeon dressing", if it even gets mentioned at all. Treasure gets taken to a whole new level and redefined if you use components in your game. Yes, it can get tedious if taken too far, but that is true for anything. Standard treasure totals and encumbrance rates can sometimes be just as tedious to track, but are important to monitor imo. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 16] Author : vader42xx Date : 06-16-04 04:43 PM Yeah, I don't go through the motions either, unless there is some other good reason to. I also don't go crazy on keeping up with spell components. Like I said, unless there is some good reason to do otherwise, I just assume the wizard has everything basic that he needs. For more expensive things he needs to keep a list but he shouldn't have a huge number of those anyway. As to the "sword vs spell component" comment that's a bit different. A fireball in the hands of a wizard can take out dozens of fighters at one time so the spell needs a little balancing. A fighting swinging his sword isn't nearly the same thing as a wizard casting his spell. My original comment about letting a fighter use his sword while not having it was supposed to be a joke...hence the wink. ;) Anyway, I use them both to add flavor and to balance the might that is the wizard (or bard). :) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 17] Author : SamualT Barronsword Date : 06-16-04 04:48 PM Thread Title : Re: 2nd ed material components Originally posted by Megalomania ... how do you guys handle material components in your game? If there is a price listed in the spell discription they must have a component of that value, either bought or "found" in a dungeon to cast that spell. Otherwise they need to have a "bag of spell components" on thier character sheet, which presumably they restock with sand, live spiders, etc., as they go about adventuring or while thier stopped in a town. Lose the "bag" somehow though, and then they have to go looking for even the low to no cost components individually until such time as they can get back to a town or some place where they could have time and which would have the the resources available to buy and restock the bag. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 18] Author : WizO_Paradox Date : 06-17-04 12:51 AM I pretty much assume they've got what they need, and have them "re-stock" when they're in town. There's a fantastic article in Dragon that had a huge list of material compontents, and the costs and such. I'm sorry I don't recall the issue number. It listed rarity as well as the cost. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 19] Author : Fearless Date : 06-17-04 02:35 AM Originally posted by WizO_Paradox I pretty much assume they've got what they need, and have them "re-stock" when they're in town. There's a fantastic article in Dragon that had a huge list of material compontents, and the costs and such. I'm sorry I don't recall the issue number. It listed rarity as well as the cost. That would be very helpfull if we are gonna use components, please remember :P -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 20] Author : vader42xx Date : 06-17-04 02:51 AM You can find something like that in Player's Option: Spells & Magic as well. But, be warned, those articles actually make spell components more of a drawback for wizards. Instead of the "free" items that most of us use (and the auto-restock of said items) you now have costs for almost everything and each component comes with a "how hard to find" list. That, to me, is much more work and not at all worth it. I like the balancing action of components but I don't want my wizard PCs to have to keep a shopping list of how many balls of wax they just picked up, no thanks. ;) As an example, even the glass rod mentioned above for the lightning bolt spell begins to take on a cost of 1gp and that's just too much record keeping for me. Basically, if the item has no other game use or isn't made of some precious/difficult to work with substance I assume the wizard can get it for free in most any logical area (ie: glass rods can be picked up at any local glass shop as the leftovers from the glass blowing process, etc). I don't roleplay all of that, I just make sure my wizards tell me they are gathering spell components once in a while and, if there is no reason to keep them from it (game reason, logical reason) then that's the end of it. :) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 21] Author : Tenzhi Date : 06-17-04 03:25 AM Originally posted by vader42xx After all you wouldn't let a fighter use his sword if he didn't have it with him would you? ;) Nor would you limit said fighter to swinging his sword 3-4 times a day. Spells are limited enough without bothering with the majority of spell components. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 22] Author : Megalomania Date : 06-17-04 05:36 AM Originally posted by WizO_Paradox There's a fantastic article in Dragon that had a huge list of material compontents, and the costs and such. I'm sorry I don't recall the issue number. It listed rarity as well as the cost. Does anyone remember what issue of dragon (or does anyone know where I can find a comprehensive list of all articles in Dragon to date, is it on the dragon cd-rom?) Assuming that players just have the components if they just say, I search for components every now and then, seems like a good idea. Especially when the items that do cost money / are hard to come by (gemstones, hearts of exotic creatures) are paid/adventured for. Perhaps it could also be like, if the players do not visit a town very often, items that will have to be found in town (butter for example) do run out. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 23] Author : Fearless Date : 06-17-04 09:40 AM Originally posted by Megalomania Does anyone remember what issue of dragon (or does anyone know where I can find a comprehensive list of all articles in Dragon to date, is it on the dragon cd-rom?) Assuming that players just have the components if they just say, I search for components every now and then, seems like a good idea. Especially when the items that do cost money / are hard to come by (gemstones, hearts of exotic creatures) are paid/adventured for. Perhaps it could also be like, if the players do not visit a town very often, items that will have to be found in town (butter for example) do run out. When you run out of butter you just have cast the few spells that use it way to much times, same holds true for fireballs which need a pinch (few grams) of sulfur. with a hand full you might be able to last a life time (as a human). -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 24] Author : Varl Date : 06-17-04 09:40 AM Does anyone remember what issue of dragon (or does anyone know where I can find a comprehensive list of all articles in Dragon to date, is it on the dragon cd-rom?) Dragon issue 81. It is a very good article on components, called "Living in a Material World". It's very comprehensive, and made back when Dragon was in its prime imo. What a great article. :D -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 25] Author : Megalomania Date : 06-17-04 09:50 AM Originally posted by Varl Dragon issue 81. It is a very good article on components, called "Living in a Material World". It's very comprehensive, and made back when Dragon was in its prime imo. What a great article. :D Great! Many thanks. I will try and see if I can dig up a copy at this side of the ocean. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 26] Author : Megalomania Date : 06-20-04 12:31 PM Great I've managed to get a copy of Dragon Magazine #81. The article about material components just about covers the subject. I recommend it to everyone using/willing to use material components in their games. (Thnx again to Varl for the tip and of course to wizO_paradox for mentioning it in the first place) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 27] Author : vader42xx Date : 06-20-04 01:26 PM Megalomania, you got me very curious about that article so I pulled out my Dragon archive and had a look. It's pretty much the same material which was later printed in Player's Option: Spells & Magic (for those who might have an easier time finding that product). It's also way too much information for my games. I prefer to simply assume that most can be found at no cost one way or another. There are obvious exceptions but I find it better to assume that most components can be come by pretty easily if the wizard has normal freedom to wander about (ie: not locked up in a dungeon or something similar). Using the information in that article (or others like it) would bog down my games and cause my spellcasters to hate me for making them pay for every little item they need to cast each and every spell. Especially when they are at higher levels and have the ability to cast some 30+ spells a day. That's just too much book keeping to ask of my players (and me for such a small part of the game) as far as I'm concerned. :) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 28] Author : Varl Date : 06-20-04 06:07 PM Using the information in that article (or others like it) would bog down my games and cause my spellcasters to hate me for making them pay for every little item they need to cast each and every spell. I agree Vader, which is why I consider that article more of a DM reference article than one for the players. If used as such, it provides the DM with some very nice guidelines for the assembly of material component bags based on level or on school. I don't force my players to hunt down every single component, which is why I offer them material component bags set up with components of varying types and groups. This also adds another marketable item to the world, which makes the finding of unusable components (via class or character level limits) valuable knowing that one of these bags that these merchants create to sell to others will probably buy it knowing they can add it in to one of their bags. It might even be the one component the merchant is missing to complete the bag, which will probably command a higher selling price for the PC. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 29] Author : Fearless Date : 06-21-04 02:21 AM Originally posted by vader42xx Using the information in that article (or others like it) would bog down my games and cause my spellcasters to hate me for making them pay for every little item they need to cast each and every spell. I'll let you know if and when I've strangled my DM :P -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 30] Author : vader42xx Date : 06-21-04 02:46 AM Thank you, we like to keep our DM body count up to date. :D And I agree Varl, but even that is too much for my games. Basically, the only time I even want components to enter into my game is during odd situations (bound, no equipment, locked in the local dungeon, etc) or for those expensive and/or hard to find components. That's what those "witches in the woods" (Dragon 81) are there for in my games. They don't sell copper wire, glass balls, and various bat bits. In my worlds they sell the components that need to be treated (though I don't usally have them sell anything that needs to be crafted like tiny swords or even gems). Which puts components, for my games, in three different groups. I have the "free group" that a wizard can always find under normal conditions (DM determins normal conditions case by case). I'd say this is about 90% of the spell components a wizard needs. I even include the glass balls, small iron bars, etc as such items. I also have the "medium group" which includes things like lodestones, hair from various hard-to-find animals (with different prices and possible exceptions, etc), the golden needle/fine cloth for deeppockets, etc. These are the odd components that you need to buy from the local mage guild, the witch in the woods, or some other person who has access to such arcane objects (of course my wizards can make some of them if they have access to the right proficiency, materials, and enough time). I don't do "magic item stores" as I find that to be 3e bunk but you can usually find some person or another (hedge mage, wizard's guild, local witch, etc) willing to sell you such items for a small price. Finally, I have the "difficult group." These are the expensive gems, the tiny brass swords, powdered gem dust, etc. They usually have prices listed and can be found in most cities of any size (though not always in villages, towns, etc). So these are harder to come by and much more expensive than the medium group. Now, keep in mind, that I don't actually sit down and group them like that or have any list, etc. I simply do it case by case with each component and each campaign location. Once I have established a "going price" or decided to put a component into one of these "groups" I do stick to it unless I later find some good balance/game reason to change it. But, for the most part it's simply a logical system of what can be easily had and what can not be. I do lean a little more in the player's favor by not making them pay for things like small iron rods, glass spheres, and other such little items. That's just to save character sheet space, gold, and my nerves. I just make those "free items" come into play when the wizard has been thrown into the local dungeon and doesn't have his spell pouch. Now he really wishes somebody would sell him that sand for a sleep spell! Or maybe, just maybe, he can work some of the smaller nails out of the iron bars to be used for the hold person spell he has memorized? :smirk: So, while I have nothing against such articles (and other ways of dealing with components) they don't really do anything for me. They list prices for far more items then I'm going to charge for and they generally disagree with my notion of what should be free and easily found. :) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Downloaded from Wizards Community (http://forums.gleemax.com) at 05-10-08 08:17 AM.