* * * Wizards Community Thread * * * -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Thread : which one for a starter Started at 07-22-04 01:41 AM by dreamz Visit at http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=280340 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 1] Author : dreamz Date : 07-22-04 01:41 AM Thread Title : which one for a starter i have never played this game and have decided to buy the basic set that will be released in sept. for the time being i m thinking to buy a cheaper one to see if i'd able to find time for the game and whether i'll enjoy it or not ... so plz suggest me which one is a better option in terms of more learning. 1- Dungeons & Dragons Game - Silver Anniversary 1999 2- DUNGEONS AND DRAGONS ADVENTURE GAME 3- DUNGEONS & DRAGONS BOARD GAME - 1991 btw m in Pakistan and its not a very famous game here so i think i will hav to create a new group. sorry to post this question in two forums, actually i found that its a proper place to ask this question. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 2] Author : Algolei Date : 07-22-04 03:50 AM Welcome to the boards. I don't know much about the three you've listed. But what's this about something being released in September? What are they releasing? (I haven't been keeping track of these things lately.) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 3] Author : dreamz Date : 07-22-04 05:34 AM D&D Basic Game (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/dndacc/966470000) This brand-new boxed set is designed to give those new to roleplaying an introduction to, and a good understanding of, the D&D game experience. It contains everything needed to play including exciting adventures, a complete set of roleplaying dice, streamlined rules drawn straight from the Dungeons & Dragons core rulebooks, and 16 miniatures from the D&D Miniatures line. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 4] Author : vader42xx Date : 07-22-04 05:45 AM WotC is releasing a basic version of 3e that will come packed with some miniatures and a rules-light system that will take you to 2nd or 3rd level and then point you to 3e. And, of course, it will suggest using those oh so wonderful miniatures to make the game easier to play. As far as I'm concerned it's a marketing ploy and nothing but throwing your money away. And to help out with the original question, what version of the game were you interested in playing? I'm sure that's going to be difficult to answer with almost no background but it's important. Basic, First Edition (1e), and Second Edition (2e) are all out of print but you can get most of those books in pdf format from various online stores (www.rpgnow.com for isntance). Third edition (3e) is currently in print (actually 3.5 is in print while 3.0 is already being phased out). So those books are easier to find but many of us in this forum don't like that version of the game for too many different reasons to list here. If you're looking for a fantasy roleplaying game I suggest doing a little reading on the web to find out what the differences are in the various editions and then we can point you to some online stores as well as which pdf files you might want to buy. If, however, you have already fallen in love with 3e and are looking to pick that up I'd suggest skipping the ones you listed and just picking up the Player's Handook, the Monster Manual, and the Dungeon Master's Guide. All three of those books are needed to play and they will give you everything you need to start. Anything else is just flavor you can add. That's assuming that the above is an option for you of course. If not, let us know and we'll try and figure out some way to help out. :) Edit: Posted the above at the same time Dreamz posted. lol Thanks for dropping the link to the basic game (I couldn't find the thing) as it gives more detail. :) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 5] Author : diaglo Date : 07-22-04 08:45 AM Thread Title : Re: which one for a starter Originally posted by dreamz 1- Dungeons & Dragons Game - Silver Anniversary 1999 2- DUNGEONS AND DRAGONS ADVENTURE GAME 3- DUNGEONS & DRAGONS BOARD GAME - 1991 of these 3 choices and your need to be happy with the september release. i would say go with 2. however, if you want to play a better version without buying the september release. i would suggest the Moldvay set from 1981. it is probably the easiest to learn and use. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 6] Author : IronCat Date : 07-22-04 10:22 AM The D&D adventure game (asuming you mean the one from just a couple years ago - will give you the flavor of the current game rules 3.5). Posters on this Out-of-Print board tend to be very unhappy with the current rules set, and will attempt to steer you to older editions - which I agree with. However, there are tons of people who are quite happy with the current rules set. Definately do some reading on the various versions before you decide. www.svgames.com www.rpgnow.com The above sites have .pdfs of the older version basic set series from the 90s. Just realize that there will be significate differences. The basic set which seems most favored is the older "Moldvay set" which you would have to find on Ebay - or get pdfs from someone online. www.Acaeum.com has great descriptions of the older versions of the game, and www.dragonsfoot.org has message boards for all the old versions. Hope this helps....enjoy. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 7] Author : IronCat Date : 07-22-04 10:25 AM Originally posted by vader42xx WotC is releasing a basic version of 3e that will come packed with some miniatures and a rules-light system that will take you to 2nd or 3rd level and then point you to 3e. And, of course, it will suggest using those oh so wonderful miniatures to make the game easier to play. As far as I'm concerned it's a marketing ploy and nothing but throwing your money away. Of course it's a marketing ploy....this is a business trying to make money. What else would have them do? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 8] Author : vader42xx Date : 07-22-04 11:13 AM Sorry, I should have said cheap marketing ploy. I don't like products that work like this. It's either going to MAKE you buy the more expensive books (in which case you could have just started with them and saved your money) or after your few hours of gaming to level three you don't go to the higher end and you've spent your money for a few hours, joy. I don't mind marketing and I certainly don't mind a business trying to make money (that's how we get better suppliments after all) but I think most of us can agree that WotC does a little TOO much of that. This is just the latest in line as far as I'm concerned. But, anyway, e-mail me or something if you'd like to keep this going...I don't want to shoot down Dreamz need for some assistance. :) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 9] Author : dreamz Date : 07-23-04 03:46 AM thanx alot for your help ... not i m getting somewhere and seeing some light :) i had almost decided to go for the silver aniversary version but now i will do some more studying. i m really greatful to you guys. Originally posted by vader42xx If, however, you have already fallen in love with 3e and are looking to pick that up I'd suggest skipping the ones you listed and just picking up the Player's Handook, the Monster Manual, and the Dungeon Master's Guide. All three of those books are needed to play and they will give you everything you need to start. Anything else is just flavor you can add. actually i dont know much about the game so being a beginner thought that the latest version must be the best one :) so if i buy these three books and what else should i buy so that i can start playing? i think i will need some maps, dice and what else? please suggest me a link where i can read such basics about the game. however, if you want to play a better version without buying the september release. i would suggest the Moldvay set from 1981. it is probably the easiest to learn and use. i could not find this on ebay. so please tell where can i find a basic set to play this one? actually what is happening is that when i go these sites there is so much unfamiliar stuff that i just get confused :( -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 10] Author : vader42xx Date : 07-23-04 04:53 AM No problem, we're here to help. :) I'm sorry for the confusion but that's going to be a problem for sure. Considering the fact that you can choose from Original, Basic, First Edition, Second Edition, and Third Edtion (and some of those have multiple printings, etc) it's going to be hard for someone new to make the "right choice." But, no, 3e isn't the best because it's the most recent. Most of us in this forum think it's the worst but that's not true for everyone so you might like it better than we do, it's hard to tell. Original and Basic have less options right out of the box (you can't be an elven fighter for instance as "race" and "class" are the same thing). So if you're looking to recreate any of your favorite fantasy novels those are probably not the best choices. However, if you like a simple sort of game like that then I'd suggest the D&D Rules Cyclopedia which you can get in pdf form at www.rpgnow.com. First edition gives you more options (the ability to take more than one class, pick your own race as well as class) but it's also more complex. And in the case of 1e you needed to be able to play with numbes pretty well and you'll need to look up several charts doing play often enough. But the key books you need here can also be found at www.rpgnow.com. They would be the First Edition Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide, and both Monster Manuals. Second edition gives more or less the same flavor as first edition but it's a little smoother with a lot of the math and tables removed for ease of play. That's why it was always my favorite and it would be the one I recoment but that's just my personal choice. lol Again, you can get those files at www.rpgnow.com and you're looking for the Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide, and Monstrous Manual...all of that would be Second Edition this time however. Third edition overloads you with rules, which is why most of us don't like it. But it gives the player more control of the game and answers a lot more questions than any other edition. It's almost more current and universal right now so those are good points as well. Other than too many rules the biggest downfall of third edition is that it tends to play like a video game (think Diablo) and the power level is pretty high (your high level characters can kill gods...lol) but if those are things you don't mind then go with that. You'll need the Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide, and Monster Manual I & II to have a really good game. These will have to be books as you can't get them in pdf. As for resources, just do a search of the web. You don't really need anything but a good map and some details as to what you want your campaign area to be like. All of the above mentioned books have ideas on how to create your own campaign so that will help you a lot. As for maps, check these out and enjoy. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mwa/archive2003 Hope I've helped somewhat...but I've probably done nothing but add a lot of questions. lol The best thing you can do is look some of the games up and give one of them a try. Good luck and happy gaming! :) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 11] Author : RobertFisher Date : 07-23-04 05:17 PM Originally posted by vader42xx Sorry, I should have said cheap marketing ploy. I don't like products that work like this. Well, it all depends. I think having a chance to try something before getting heavily invested is worthwhile. Whether a particular product is worth its cover price is another matter, of course. The D&D Adventure Game c. 2000 was a bit expensive for what you got. The D&D Basic Set c. 1981 was not. Still, neither were a complete rip off. Although, sometimes I wonder: If the stuff from the Expert rulebook had been included with the 1981 Basic Set, would it have been much more expensive? (N.B. I said "rulebook", no X1 or second set of dice, not to mention not having a duplicate box, catalog, &c.) Would it have sold better? Did the Expert Set sell enough to make up the difference? (I'm the only person I know--offline at least--who had an Expert book back in the day, & I bought the stand-alone book instead of the set.) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 12] Author : James McMurray Date : 07-23-04 06:10 PM [quoteIt's either going to MAKE you buy the more expensive books (in which case you could have just started with them and saved your money) or after your few hours of gaming to level three you don't go to the higher end and you've spent your money for a few hours, joy.[/quote] You mean like the basic set made you buy the expert set to go higher than 3rd level? And the expert set made you buy the companion set? And companion made you buy masters? And masters made you buy immorals? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 13] Author : vader42xx Date : 07-23-04 06:15 PM To me the old Basic set and the new 3e Basic are totally different. The old Red Box wasn't an introduction so much as it was the first in a five part series. That way each boxed set could give you more information on each group of levels. The 3e Basic game is just a ploy to get you to buy the 3e PHB, DMG, and MM (and to get you used to using miniatures for combat). The key difference is once you buy the 3e harback books the basic game you just paid $30 becomes worthless (with the exception of the minatures). I don't mind a game that comes in stages that you are expected to build upon if you want more depth (all roleplaying games do that). But I do mind a product that gets you to buy something for no other reason than to get you to buy something more expensive later on. Especially when that "upgraded purchase" makes your original buy worthless. That's cheap marketing to me. :) Edit: Sorry James, posted at the same time you did...see above to answer your question. ;) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 14] Author : GreyLord Date : 07-23-04 06:56 PM Dreamz...if you are wanting to just learn the game first...the BEST set ever made that I've ever run across, I think is as Diaglo suggests...at least I think it is...there are so many different sets. If it's the one that I think it is, it comes in a red box. The red box has a picture of a warrior fighting a red dragon. Actually, now looking into it (sorry, all my editions up until I bought the Rules Cyclopedia predated the Moldavay edition) I was thinking about another version I ran across. This is on ebay and this is what the box looks like... http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=2545&item=5910849754&rd=1 The Moldavay version, which probably is the same thing looks like this (again from an auction on ebay). http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=44112&item=5910275389&rd=1 These give you a GREAT introduction. It starts you off as a character, and walks you through how things work in a solo game type way. It then leads you almost literally by the hand in how to roll up a character, and create your character. It gives you ideas on how to make adventures. It is TRULY made for novices of the game, is less confusing then other attempts at introducing people to the game, and by the time you're finished with it...you'll have a pretty good grasp of the rules! In addition, the basic set has everything you need to play the normal game of D&D (the original, well almost the original) by itself...without EVER even having to buy anything else if you so desire! to find other's look up the phrase "Basic D&D" on Ebay to find them, much of the time for a great price! At that point you will be ready for 1e which overall has less rules and is easier to play than later editions, if you want. This is known as AD&D. It is differentiated from other D&D games (such as the poser D&D/hybrid version of 3e that is now selling, which is NOT compatible with the original, nor is it the same rules...however all other versions are compatible...more or less...easily) in that it says it is AD&D on the cover, whereas 2e has the terms 2nd edition typically, and 3e either has 3.5 on it somewhere, or states that it is D&D and is in a hardbook form, or near to that typically. Also 1e has artwork more in the realm of Elmore and others of his generation, whilst 3e has artwork that is more modern animation type artwork in some ways. 1e is more complicated then the original D&D (hence why they called it AD&D, or advanced Dungeons and Dragons). Overall, it's not too hard to learn once you've learned the basic rules. 2nd edition is a few more rules than 1e. Some don't like it. They made a few good changes (that Gygax had already started but not in official rulebooks), however there are some rather absurd items they instituted in it as well, which I won't go into. 3e is a complex morass that I've found many would rather never play D&D than try to learn. If you are into some heavy reading and testing, and figuring out of rules...than 3e is great for you. In reality, because 3e tries to make a rule for as many situations as it thinks might prop up, there are very few games out there that are quite as complex, and rulesbound. If you have any questions on any edition other than 3e and I'm around I'll try to answer them. Personally, I'd mirror Diaglo and suggest the basic set of D&D rather than any that you've listed from my knowledge of things. However, you could try the Adventure game. 3e gamers might even play nice with you at first, however, some of them can get quite nasty so watch yourself if you don't follow their rules! Me included (yes I play 3e as well, I like all the editions, but there are enough that will talk about 3e on other boards that one doesn't really need me talking about that...on the otherhand, my preferred editions are typically older editions, plus my wife refuses to touch 3e, she says it's not a woman's game, but a loo..well I won't go into what she calls it...she thinks it's a little too complex with her, I've only gotten her to play in 2 adventures with it since it came out...on the other hand it seems she prefers the original over all others, and next is 1e. Same goes for my older sister too actually now that I think about it), I have to know the rules to make sure my players aren't trying to pull a fast one on me. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 15] Author : vader42xx Date : 07-24-04 04:14 AM If you're going to go Basic D&D over any AD&D (and advanced does not mean better, it depends on how you want to play) then I'd suggest the Rules Cyclopedia actually. It's one book and it gives you everything you'll ever need to play. You can go to ebay, amazon.com, or even rpgnow.com and look it up. :) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 16] Author : GreyLord Date : 07-24-04 08:05 AM Originally posted by vader42xx If you're going to go Basic D&D over any AD&D (and advanced does not mean better, it depends on how you want to play) then I'd suggest the Rules Cyclopedia actually. It's one book and it gives you everything you'll ever need to play. You can go to ebay, amazon.com, or even rpgnow.com and look it up. :) ah, but if I recall, he doesn't know how to play....and the Cyclopedia isn't all that great of a tutorial...nor are most of the rule sets...except the basic sets that have been suggested (and a pity too, it would have been good for the Core Rule books to have had some in depth tutorials on playing the game). -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 17] Author : vader42xx Date : 07-24-04 10:26 AM I always thought the Rules Cyclopedia was a pretty good teacher. At least as good as any other rule set and probably better because all of your answers are in one book. :) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 18] Author : Stonebeard Date : 07-24-04 09:22 PM Originally posted by vader42xx Sorry, I should have said cheap marketing ploy. I $25 bucks is cheap? You can download the 2e AD&D fast play rules for $0. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 19] Author : Gandalf_Istari Date : 07-25-04 12:07 AM Originally posted by Stonebeard $25 bucks is cheap? You can download the 2e AD&D fast play rules for $0. :bounce: -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 20] Author : vader42xx Date : 07-25-04 04:25 AM Not that kind of cheap...does underhanded and dirty marketing ploy get across what I'm trying to say?? :D -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 21] Author : James McMurray Date : 07-25-04 12:29 PM If you're wanting to learn and play 3.5 I would suggest getting the PHB, DMG, and MM. Also pick up The Sunless Citadel and Forge of Fury. They're the first two adventures for 3.0 and were designed to help teach how to play and DM. If you're wanting to play Basic D&D I'd suggest the red box with the warrior fighting the dragon. It has a quick and dirty solo adventure in it that teaches a lot. The rest of the book is also fairly easy to understand. Its the one I cut my teeth on. :) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 22] Author : blackprinceofmuncie Date : 07-25-04 04:24 PM If you're looking to buy and older Basic Set, do yourself a favor and don't get the red box with the warrior on the front. Get the purple/pink box with the water dragon, warrior with spear and female wizard on the front. The Mentzer (red box) rules are basically the same as the Moldvay (purple/pink box) rules. However, the rulebooks are written and organized differently. The Moldvay version is, IMO, much clearer and more helpful than the Mentzer edition. If you're having trouble finding a place to buy, check out the sticky thread at the top of the forum "Where to buy OOP books on the internet". -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 23] Author : GreyLord Date : 07-25-04 07:36 PM Originally posted by Stonebeard $25 bucks is cheap? You can download the 2e AD&D fast play rules for $0. Can you give me a link, probably been so long since I looked at what could be d/l'ed and what couldn't be that it's popped up since then. That's neat... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 24] Author : IronCat Date : 07-27-04 10:04 AM Originally posted by vader42xx Not that kind of cheap...does underhanded and dirty marketing ploy get across what I'm trying to say?? :D I really think this is a good product to serve as a base introduction for D&D. For anyone under the age of 15 to have to pay $100 for 3 core books to check a game is bad marketing. Imagine encountering D&D in your local bookstore right now. There are shelves filled with book after book, after book. Which ones do you need? What's what? $30 a book! What! Now there will be a box sitting there with BASIC SET written right on the front. Hopefully the new rules set (D&D lite will be a litte easier on new players). I also think think the inclusion of the miniatures is a good idea. D&D has to go up against itself in many respects, because of the PCs games out there. The miniatures bring an easy visual component to th game. My first D&D set was Moldvay, which I just happened to see in a hobby shop when I was 10 or 11. I had to beg for that inexpensive set it as it was. I could not imagine what it would have been like to go up to my mom with the MM, PHB, and DMG and try to talk her into that. That said, don't think for one minute that I don't think Wizards is making the same mistake TSR did in flooding the market with way too much product, when they should keep a smaller product line and work to increase the player pool instead. I just happen to think this particular product is a good one. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 25] Author : diaglo Date : 07-27-04 11:56 AM Originally posted by GreyLord Can you give me a link, probably been so long since I looked at what could be d/l'ed and what couldn't be that it's popped up since then. That's neat... i can't remember where it is either... the closest i could find was: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/DnD_2E_Retrospective.asp -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 26] Author : vader42xx Date : 07-27-04 05:02 PM That's just it though, those 15 year old kids are going to HAVE to buy those $100 books after they get the basic set. Otherwise they have tossed the money for the basic set out the window. So why not skip the middle man and get the three books? And I hate minatures in D&D, awful concept in my opinion. But that's me personally. :) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 27] Author : Elendur Date : 07-27-04 11:32 PM I'll go ahead and recommend option 2, the D&D adventure game(as I've done many times before). This is the orange box that says "The adventure begins!" on the cover and is basically a lite version of 3e rules. I think its a great value. It comes with dice(which might be hard to come by in Pakistan, I don't know), the rules, pre-gen characters, 6 adventures, and a bunch of cardboard counters of monsters and treasure chests and such. The adventures increase in complexity step by step, giving both the players and dm opportunity to learn their roles. Even having bought the new rules books(and having played for 20+ years), I still used the box set multiple times to introduce players to the game. The box should provide several evenings of entertainment, and it only costs $10. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Downloaded from Wizards Community (http://forums.gleemax.com) at 05-10-08 08:19 AM.