* * * Wizards Community Thread * * * -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Thread : Do we want to keep the OOP board? Started at 08-05-04 10:11 PM by Halaster-Blackcloak Visit at http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=288548 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 1] Author : Halaster-Blackcloak Date : 08-05-04 10:11 PM Thread Title : Do we want to keep the OOP board? Well, since WizO_Catoblepas just shut down the other thread without allowing for discussion of the important question, I figured I'd ask it here. The WizOs have already tried to get a conversion board and the powers that be said "no". Yeah, that's right, it's not coming. What I'd like to know is when this was decided, and why it was ignored or not announced up until this point. You obviously know that many of us have been waiting for an answer to this question for months now. Thus, it isn't like this board is guaranteed to stay forever no matter what the guests do. But earlier you said that: If all this board becomes is one large gripefest about what has happened with the OoP editions, there's very little motivation to keep this board. WotC management will figure this out and just decide the nix the OoP board altogether. So which is it? Does it matter what we say or not? First you said that if all we do is gripe, WOTC will close the OOP board. Later you said that it doesn't matter what the guests do. If that's the case, why be concerned over what the "guests" do? Either way, it may get shut down. So why not gripe about the mistreatment? Thus, if you like this board, let's just stay with dicussing rules and concepts of out of print editions. If you want it that way, then you simply need to ban 3E discussion here. There's no need for it. It's an OOP forum, not a forum for discussing how to turn your 1E druid into a 3E half-dragon/half-celestial dreadnaught with vorpal cleave feats. :rolleyes: You can't have it both ways. Either you end up banning 3E discussion which is off topic in the OOP forum or you endure griping about all the off-topic 3E posts and the inevitable fights that break out when people wrongly post in the OOP forum praising and promoting 3E. Why does that concept seem so difficult for the Wizzos to understand? I still want a place to go to if I want to discuss out of print editions. The ball is in your court. Honestly, I'm at the point where I think that WOTC should just totally and utterly delete the OOP forum here at the WOTC boards. Bottom line, there are better places to get OOP information, forums dedicated to OOP stuff where 3E intrusions are not tolerated and where the forums are not littered with posts asking a hundred times how to convert OOP into 3E. Obviously the "powers that be" don't seem to be interested in keeping the OOP forums dedicated to OOP games, the Wizzos refuse to stem the constant posting of off topic 3E material here in the OOP forums, and a great many OOP gamers are sick of hearing the Wizzos complain about our griping over how WOTC and the Wizzos themselves are (not) handling the OOP forum respectfully. It's a sick, sad circle. Would it kill you to institute a rule banning OFF TOPIC 3E posts from the OOP forum? :rolleyes: I say kill it. Less headaches for you, less aggravation for true OOP fans, and there's better places for OOP information anyway. It's a shame that the current publishers show such disrespect for OOP stuff, but that's their choice. The bottom line for me is this. Since WOTC and the Wizzos are not interested in keeping the OOP forums dedicated to OOP material (refusing to ban off topic 3E posts, refusing to create an edition comparison forum, etc), then where does that leave us? Fighting about the same old crap. Close the OOP forums here. It'd be the first intelligent handling of the OOP forum in a long time. P.S. - You might say this post belongs in the meta-forum, but since it affects only the OOP community, I thought it belonged in the OOP forum. We may end up disagreeing on that too. :rolleyes: -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 2] Author : WizO_Catoblepas Date : 08-05-04 10:20 PM Look, if you see something that violates the Code of Concut, then press the "Report the Thread to Moderator" text and it will be addressed accordingly. That includes 3E requests on the OoP board. However, as for whether people want to keep the OoP board or not, I'm going to leave that to each individual to discuss with themselves to decide. Frankly, even noting negative reasons why not to keep the board may drive it to its closue. There's no reason to help accelerate the process. Edit: Yes, I've made the corrections to my other post to get rid of the "whine" comments. I've replaced the text with a more appropriate text. As for when we knew about the conversion board, this has been a relatively new revelation. As the WizOs, we were trying to push the concept. However, the final decision did not stop with us. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 3] Author : Halaster-Blackcloak Date : 08-05-04 10:23 PM I have another question for WizO_Catobleepas: What kind of example are you trying to set? In the past, you have issued me warnings personally for using words like "Whiner" and "whines" as being personal and unacceptable by the CoC. And yet in your sticky post, you wrote: Ok, there's been a fair amount of whining and complaining about how the OoP editions never get any support from companies anymore...[snip] However, there is an even more important reason to refrain from the whine and gripe threads. So why is it ok for you to refer to our legitimate complaints as "whining", when use of that word has been deemed unacceptable by "guests"? Also, you said: Thus, if you like this board, let's just stay with dicussing rules and concepts of out of print editions. As if the guests have control over that? That's YOUR job, to mdoerate the OOP forum and ensure that off topic posts are moved to the appropriate forum. If you're unable or unwilling to do the job, then either hire someone who can/will, or stop whing about our whining about off topic posts. Makes sense? Finally, you said: Well, part of the definition of being an Out of Print edition is that by definition you're not getting much support. I don't think anyone here is asking for more support, just FAIR AND EQUITABLE TREATMENT, ie keep off topic 3E posts out of the OOP forum. Again, why is that so difficult a concept for you to comprehend? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 4] Author : WizO_Paradox Date : 08-05-04 10:40 PM I found out a few days ago, but was trying to come up with the best way to break the bad news. Catoblepas had a question and I told him to announce it. (Heh, not so much a better him than me, but he's already closing a thread with the question, might as well burst the bubble.) We did have a ban on 3e discussions, but the OOP people didn't like it because they couldn't bash the current edition either. You can't have THAT both ways either. If it's banned, it's banned. That includes all snide comments about the current edition of the game. Eh, I was going to mention the constant accusations of "disrespect", but I honestly don't know what that means. I have the 3e books and none of them slam the older editions of the game in any way, shape or form. My collection (which still gets read, BTW.) of OOP material has time and again mentioned how the game grows and changes, so I find statements such as the "current" version isn't real D&D a bit distressing. I was also going to point out that many names on current materal are the same people that wrote all that great older materal that is so well loved. But I'm not in the mood for a flame war. (Which isn't allowed anyway.) But please don't question the WizO's comittments to older versions of the game. Many of us started on the earlier ones, and some of us still play them. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 5] Author : WizO_Paradox Date : 08-05-04 10:43 PM It's not difficult. We did that. The OOP fans were not happy they couldn't slam 3e anymore and asked the restriction be dropped. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 6] Author : WizO_Catoblepas Date : 08-05-04 10:48 PM Ok, we'll keep the thread open. Let's just keep it civil. Thanks. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 7] Author : Halaster-Blackcloak Date : 08-05-04 10:49 PM Funny, I don't recall OOP gamers complaining about not being able to discuss or bash 3E. As is always the case, you're engaging in revisionist history. What ACTUALLY happened was that no one was allowed to utter the words "3E" in the OOP forum at all. In other words, no one was even allowed to say something like: "I used to play 1E, tried the new 3E, didn't like it, and now want to try 2E. Any suggestions on how to convert 1E into 2e?" That would have been deemed inappropriate. Typical knee-jerk over-reaction by the Wizos. That alone showed disrepect and differential treatment for the OOP board. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 8] Author : WizO_Catoblepas Date : 08-05-04 10:56 PM If someone says, "Hey, I want to convert "The Tomb of Horrors" to 3rd edition because 2nd edition sucks mothballs," we'll give those people disciplinary actions as well. There's nothing wrong with saying "I like 1st edition over 3rd edition" and discuss the reasons why. However, it's not appropriate to say, "I like 3rd edition over 1st edition because 1st edition blows." The latter is trolling and is against the Code of Conduct. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 9] Author : WizO_Paradox Date : 08-05-04 11:00 PM Revisionist history? Heh! I needed the laugh, thanks! We didn't over react. It's exactly what you guys wanted us to do. "NO mention of 3e at all!" "I used to play 1E, tried the new 3E, didn't like it, and now want to try 2E. Any suggestions on how to convert 1E into 2e?" Those sorts of statements led right to the same old flame wars again and again, which you guys wanted. The above would prompt post such as: "Yeah, 3e stinks!" "I don't know why they wasted time with 3e!" "They should never have bothered with 3e! 2E was better!" Which, invariably lead to someone who likes all editions putting in his two cents. "3e isn't that bad." And another flame war would erupt. All because someone had to comment they didn't like 3e rather than just staying "How do I convert 1E to 2E?" I'll bet if we ignore those flame wars, we'd STILL get "You guys don't care about this fourm! It's poorly moderated!" It would be nice if you stopped making us out to be the bad guys, because we're not. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 10] Author : Gandalf_Istari Date : 08-05-04 11:18 PM Halaster, you're darn inbox is full again! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 11] Author : Halaster-Blackcloak Date : 08-05-04 11:19 PM Paradox wrote: We didn't over react. It's exactly what you guys wanted us to do. "NO mention of 3e at all!" Now who's over-reacting? Let's use common sense, shall we? No discussion of 3E topics means not promoting 3E ("I think 3E is better than 1E or 2E"), no questions about conversion ("how do I convert my 1E druid into a 3E half-celestial dragon bard?"), things like that. Banning all mention of 3E is a ridiculous overreaction and an example of preferential and biased treatment. And no one I know asked for such a ridiculous over-reactionary ban. Those sorts of statements led right to the same old flame wars again and again, which you guys wanted. The above would prompt post such as: "Yeah, 3e stinks!" "I don't know why they wasted time with 3e!" "They should never have bothered with 3e! 2E was better!" Paradox, don't take this as an insult, but doesn't WOTC issue you a "Common Sense Guide to Moderating the Boards" book or something? I mean, come on! If that situation is too hard to figure out, you have no business being a moderator. Here's how it works. There's no problem with someone in the OOP board saying "I tried 3E but didn't like it" or "after looking at it, I prefer OOP AD&D". It does not break the CoC, it is not personal, it is not an insult, and no sane person could be offended by it. If someone responded by posting "Well yeah, 3E sucked to the bottom of the Nine Hells", then guess what? THEN is the time for a WizO to do his job and moderate the thread, issuing a warning. If those people keep bashing 3E, you ban them. I mean seriously, are you telling me you have trouble comprehending such common sense moderation technique? Because if so, that's very troubling. And another flame war would erupt. All because someone had to comment they didn't like 3e rather than just staying "How do I convert 1E to 2E?" WRONG! DEAD WRONG! The flame war would erupt because: 1. Some fool took it upon himself to blatantly ignore the CoC and started bashing 3E. and 2. Some hyper-sensitive soul took it upon himself to be "offended" by the bash of 3E and started flaming back. Normal, sane, mature human beings are not offended by others saying "I didn't care for 3E" or "I never enjoyed 2E". Normal, sane, mature human beings do not need to flame someone for saying they don't like what someone else does. You're trying to go into thought moderation, which obviously (to some of us at least) does not work. I'll bet if we ignore those flame wars, we'd STILL get "You guys don't care about this fourm! It's poorly moderated!" That's a safe bet, since you DO ignore bashing of OOP stuff, as well as off topic posts. It's so easy to understand that the only conclusions I can come to are that the WizOs are purposely acting this way in order to cause problems, or their moderation skills are utterly nonexistent. And I'm being kind there. Why not just try listening to some of us old timers, many of whom are moderators on other boards where FLAME WARS DO NOT BREAK OUT? Perhaps we know how to do it right? It would be nice if you stopped making us out to be the bad guys, because we're not. Bad or incompetent? I haven't decided. And I'm not saying that to insult, I am only basing it on the actions I've seen by the WizOs here. The very fact that you seem lost on how to handle it when someone says "I tried 3E but didn't like it" forces me to question your moderation skills. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 12] Author : WizO_Catoblepas Date : 08-05-04 11:33 PM Originally posted by Halaster-Blackcloak Paradox, don't take this as an insult, but doesn't WOTC issue you a "Common Sense Guide to Moderating the Boards" book or something? I mean, come on! If that situation is too hard to figure out, you have no business being a moderator. Here's how it works. There's no problem with someone in the OOP board saying "I tried 3E but didn't like it" or "after looking at it, I prefer OOP AD&D". It does not break the CoC, it is not personal, it is not an insult, and no sane person could be offended by it. If someone responded by posting "Well yeah, 3E sucked to the bottom of the Nine Hells", then guess what? THEN is the time for a WizO to do his job and moderate the thread, issuing a warning. If those people keep bashing 3E, you ban them. I mean seriously, are you telling me you have trouble comprehending such common sense moderation technique? Because if so, that's very troubling. Actually, I think we've got it since I posted the samething three posts prior to this post. Futhermore, since I was rained using the same training program that Paradox put together, I think we've got it. As for preferencial treatment of new editions versus old, figuring we get complaint post and e-mails going the other way (ie posts and e-mails like "You should stop all discussion about older editions since 3rd edition is the offiicial version by WotC"), I think we're in the middle on the subject. As Paradox mentioned, many of us still love the older editions. It's just that we like all editions. It doesn't have to be an either/or thing. At any rate, when i comes to sides on this issue, the other side always believes that they've got it worse. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 13] Author : Gandalf_Istari Date : 08-05-04 11:34 PM I don't wanting to get into a p***ing contest here, but I really don't see why the "Cashing in" thread was closed in the first place. That really wasn't a flame fest at all. There might have been a couple of posters who were drifting that way, but why not just PM them or post telling them to turn the heat down instead of locking the thread? People who play OOP have real gripes about the lack of attention OOP products get from WotC. Why not sort out the flame throwers from the reasonably mature and cogent posters rather than just out-right locking a thread that really wasn't a flame war? Perhaps if WotC was willing to listen to what many OOPers consider to be legitimate gripes (or constructive criticism if you prefer) rather than just turn a deaf ear, these gripes would go away. OOPer's are still D&D fans. The problem seems that there is at least the perception that WotC doesn't care about OOP editions of the game. Perhaps this perception is true, perhaps it isn't. However locking threads simply because there are gripes about WotC and its treatment of OOP doesn't help to alleviate that perception. OOPer's are customers and fans of D&D as much as any who play 3e. Perhaps many of us don't like the current edition, and perhaps that rankles some at WotC; however, from a purely business perspective, I wish WotC (and the moderators) would listen to OOPer gripes and criticisms rather than ignore or marginalize them. Is there no place for criticism about the current edition of the game or the direction the game in general seems to be heading, as long as that criticism doesn't violate the CoC? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 14] Author : WizO_Paradox Date : 08-05-04 11:48 PM However locking threads simply because there are gripes about WotC and its treatment of OOP doesn't help to alleviate that perception. Catoblepas and I are trying to prevent history from repeating itself. This is the same path that another forum took before it was removed for the constant company/employee bashing. "OOP" stands for Out of Print (Yeah I know you know that.) By definition, if WotC "Paid attention" to it, it wouldn't be OOP. Being that it is no longer produced, there's not a heck of a lot we WizOs can do to improve any impressions people have on the "treatment" of the OOP boards. We ARE open to suggestions. But, you do have to keep in mind that WotC does NOT make money on things already sold. If they re-printed the 2nd edition PHB, how many copies would you realisticly expect to buy? How about if they re-printed the book on Dwarves? It's all about sales, and at the time, sales on OOP products were down. (But that's another discussion.) 3E comments would go on the other areas, not the OOP board. So, any suggestions on how we can improve things? Don't forget to mention what should happen with OOP people that want to discuss 3e as well. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 15] Author : WizO_Catoblepas Date : 08-05-04 11:58 PM Originally posted by Gandalf_Istari I don't wanting to get into a p***ing contest here, but I really don't see why the "Cashing in" thread was closed in the first place. That really wasn't a flame fest at all. There might have been a couple of posters who were drifting that way, but why not just PM them or post telling them to turn the heat down instead of locking the thread? The reason why it was closed is that the thread degenerated into a gripefest about WotC treatment of the older revisions of the game. These thread result in flmae wars. People who play OOP have real gripes about the lack of attention OOP products get from WotC. Why not sort out the flame throwers from the reasonably mature and cogent posters rather than just out-right locking a thread that really wasn't a flame war? Perhaps if WotC was willing to listen to what many OOPers consider to be legitimate gripes (or constructive criticism if you prefer) rather than just turn a deaf ear, these gripes would go away. As I noted in the thread posted on the top of the board, part of being an Out of Print edition is that you don't get support. My 10 year old laser printer is no longer produced. If it ever breaks, it will be cheaper for me to buy a new printer than it is to fix it. It just that the manufacturer doesn't support the product the same as the used to. And as I stated in the thread, it really is up to the guests to whether they want to keep this board or not. If you don't, continue to gripe. Let's face it - WotC doesn't keep this board up to be a repository for complaints that the OoP editions are no longer printed. OOPer's are still D&D fans. The problem seems that there is at least the perception that WotC doesn't care about OOP editions of the game. Perhaps this perception is true, perhaps it isn't. If the perception was true, then they would have never started this OoP board. After all, what profit does WotC make off of keeping an OoP board. We're discussing product that they no longer produce. The reason why they keep this board is so guests can discussing the rules and contents of the Out of Print game. And the authors have mentioned in recent publications that they like material from the OoP games. However, if this board is just one big gripefest concerning the OoP editions (where WotC is the target of such gripes), then in the eyes of WotC why keep the board? However locking threads simply because there are gripes about WotC and its treatment of OOP doesn't help to alleviate that perception. OOPer's are customers and fans of D&D as much as any who play 3e. Perhaps many of us don't like the current edition, and perhaps that rankles some at WotC; however, from a purely business perspective, I wish WotC (and the moderators) would listen to OOPer gripes and criticisms rather than ignore or marginalize them. Technically, if a person is truly an OoPer soley, then they aren't buying WotC products. And I'm sure WotC has listened to the complaints and criticisms. However, there gets to be a point where you're diluting the marketplace with various editions. There are marketing decisions to consider. Is there no place for criticism about the current edition of the game or the direction the game in general seems to be heading, as long as that criticism doesn't violate the CoC? Well, this is the WotC message board, after all. I'm sure that there are places on the web to go. Any good search engine would help. I know it isn't the answer that you wanted to hear, but if you think about it, for example does the Ford website allow guests to come in and say, "The current F150 sucks!" ? It's not like I can go to Microsoft's website and post on their website "IE Explorer sticks!" Edit: Let me correct myself. It is ok to note a criticism. Just go to the 3rd edition board in question and start a thread stating "I don't like this rule" and then follow it up with the reasons why. I'm sure that you'll start a discussion on the matter - maybe even a house rule. Just keep it polite and respectful and all will be fine. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 16] Author : Elendur Date : 08-06-04 12:08 AM I really want to keep the OOP board around, because I really value the expertise available to help me run 1e modules. The Greyhawk board help me in this regard as well. I don't really understand why people feel so strong a need to vent about 3e and Wizards on this board. Its not going to change the status of OOP products, and it just gets in the way of the useful information. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 17] Author : Strephon Alkhalikoi Date : 08-06-04 12:26 AM Thread Title : An open message for the Wizos This forum is for discussion of out of print games, is it not? I think Halaster asked this already. If he did, I merely echo what he said, but just exactly what is the difficulty involved in keeping d20 Fantasy extremists out of this forum? Please provide us with a logical plan of action in regards to this. Do not quote the code of conduct, as those are merely words without any true substance. It's up to the Wizos to take action, but I expect that the action taken will be the wrong one, as shown repeatedly on this forum. Better yet, just completely kill the forum, since it serves no useful purpose, especially with the Hasbro shills being sent in here in an attempt to make us conform to the "one game to rule them all". You know it. I know it. Everyone knows it. Of course, nobody can prove it, just as nobody can prove that the Wizos do in fact post under non Wizo identities on the forums. There's my 0.02. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 18] Author : WizO_Catoblepas Date : 08-06-04 12:46 AM Let's keep the discussion civil. Thanks. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 19] Author : Gandalf_Istari Date : 08-06-04 01:10 AM Originally posted by WizO_Paradox "OOP" stands for Out of Print (Yeah I know you know that.) By definition, if WotC "Paid attention" to it, it wouldn't be OOP. Being that it is no longer produced, there's not a heck of a lot we WizOs can do to improve any impressions people have on the "treatment" of the OOP boards. We ARE open to suggestions. See this is why I can deal with you Paradox. You at least say you are open to suggestions. Now, if you'd go back into the "Cashin in" thread you'd see that there were actually some suggestions as to how Wotc can improve relations with OOP folks. Several were listed, and I'm not going to relist them here because they can be seen in that thread. Sure, there was some griping about WotC and its radical changes to the game with the advent of 3e, but there were also some suggestions as to how WotC could try to play to the old schoolers that weren't that bad. Now of course, I understand that Wizo's are not WotC managers who can make decisions on some of the suggestions made in the "Cashin in" thread, but maybe instead of locking the thread the mods could simply have posted and said, "Ok lets stop knocking WotC and keep the criticism constructive." Maybe send an email to some of the game developers and ask them to drop by the OOP boards once in a great while and ask our take on where the game is going. Maybe offer up the emails of WotC people who are in charge so that people can send feedback to WotC in the hopes that some of their concerns can be addressed at some point. But, you do have to keep in mind that WotC does NOT make money on things already sold. If they re-printed the 2nd edition PHB, how many copies would you realisticly expect to buy? How about if they re-printed the book on Dwarves? It's all about sales, and at the time, sales on OOP products were down. (But that's another discussion.) I'm sorry, but saying "that WotC does not make money on things already sold" is rather riduculous. That was PRECISELY the point of the "Cashin In" thread, namely that WotC is making profits off a game that has a HUGE history long before WotC and Hasbro gots its hands onto it, and that WotC in many people's opinion in that thread was giving short thrift to that fact. Sure, technically WotC is not making money on OOP stuff, however, they are making money on the reputation and popularity of the game that pre-existed WotC for several decades, a reputation and popularity that was garnered by the loyalty of a fan base that STILL plays those editions that WotC no longer wants to support in any way seemingly. So, any suggestions on how we can improve things? Don't forget to mention what should happen with OOP people that want to discuss 3e as well. Well considering that the suggestion of a conversion board was completely refused, I'm not sure what to suggest as it seems that our suggestions on the OOP boards mean as much to WotC as older editions do, (i.e., next to nothing). -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 20] Author : Gandalf_Istari Date : 08-06-04 01:44 AM Originally posted by WizO_Catoblepas The reason why it was closed is that the thread degenerated into a gripefest about WotC treatment of the older revisions of the game. These thread result in flmae wars. Admitedley, there were a few posts that were somewhat flamey, but why not just remind them to keep the flame throwers put away or edit/ban those posters? There were several people who were talking about WotC's 30th Anniversary stuff and offering criticisms that weren't big flames or terrible WotC bashing. I understand the need to lock a thread if its all flames, but that thread really wasn't. There were absolutely no personal insults in that thread amongst the posters, and even most of the criticisms of WotC's coverage of the 30th anniversary of D&D weren't really overboard. As I noted in the thread posted on the top of the board, part of being an Out of Print edition is that you don't get support. My 10 year old laser printer is no longer produced. If it ever breaks, it will be cheaper for me to buy a new printer than it is to fix it. It just that the manufacturer doesn't support the product the same as the used to. Ok that analogy is a little off. Old technology that has been replaced with newer, better technology legitimately can be called obsolete. However, OOP D&D still works fine. If you want to argue that OOP is obsolete like your old printer, hey thats your opinion, but aren't you now taking the position that the newest edition of the game is superior to the older versions? Isn't that the point of your analogy, to cast OOP as being analogous to your "10 year old laser printer"? Aren't you serving in the role of a 3e/WotC apologist now? The fact is, many old schoolers don't think the game was broken in the first place, nor obsolete. Since you're a WotC moderator and have the power, certainly you can come in and make subtle remarks about how "the old broken technology has been replaced by the new and improved technology", but that doesn't mean we aren't going to call you on it when you do it. And as I stated in the thread, it really is up to the guests to whether they want to keep this board or not. If you don't, continue to gripe. Let's face it - WotC doesn't keep this board up to be a repository for complaints that the OoP editions are no longer printed. Perhaps you should read threads before you lock them. Every criticism in the "Cashin In" thread wasn't a "complaint that the OOP editions are no longer printed." There were some ideas in there about how WotC could better acknowledge the history of the game. There were some ideas about how WotC could consider coming out with some conversion resources so people who play OOP could buy and convert 3e to older editions (thus making WotC money, btw). There was the hope that sometime in the future WotC could work out whatever problem caused ESDs to stop being produced. If the perception was true, then they would have never started this OoP board. After all, what profit does WotC make off of keeping an OoP board. We're discussing product that they no longer produce. The reason why they keep this board is so guests can discussing the rules and contents of the Out of Print game. And the authors have mentioned in recent publications that they like material from the OoP games. However, if this board is just one big gripefest concerning the OoP editions (where WotC is the target of such gripes), then in the eyes of WotC why keep the board? Technically, if a person is truly an OoPer soley, then they aren't buying WotC products. And I'm sure WotC has listened to the complaints and criticisms. However, there gets to be a point where you're diluting the marketplace with various editions. There are marketing decisions to consider. Come one now, a little honesty would serve better here don't you think? Many OOP players still buy 3e products, at the very least to mine them for ideas and take what parts of 3e they do actually like to put them into their own house rules. Lets not pretend that this forum exists simply or exclusively out of WotC's altruistic sensibilities for the OOP folks. They hope to maximize the exposure of their gaming products to all D&D fans alike, both OOP folks and newer 3e enthusiastes. Well, this is the WotC message board, after all. I'm sure that there are places on the web to go. Any good search engine would help. So basically, even if a thread had no insults or flames or CoC violations, there still can be absolutely no criticism of WotC or the direction that they are taking the game? Thats pretty thin skinned I'd say. As far as other message boards, you certainly are making a good case for why OOP people might be better served to walk away from WotC completely and go elsewhere. Careful though, because we might just decide to take out wallets with us. I know it isn't the answer that you wanted to hear, but if you think about it, for example does the Ford website allow guests to come in and say, "The current F150 sucks!" ? It's not like I can go to Microsoft's website and post on their website "IE Explorer sticks!" Thats a little hyperbolic don't you think? The "Cashin In" thread really wasn't a huge "WotC sucks and they're all a bunch of lying thieves!" type thread. You as a moderator don't want people to use ridiculous rhetoric, then perhaps you yourself should not resort to that kind of exageration. Edit: Let me correct myself. It is ok to note a criticism. Just go to the 3rd edition board in question and start a thread stating "I don't like this rule" and then follow it up with the reasons why. I'm sure that you'll start a discussion on the matter - maybe even a house rule. Just keep it polite and respectful and all will be fine. If there were people who were being impolite or disrespectful in the "Cashin In" thread, then moderate THEM, not me by locking the thread and quashing the entire discussion. But of course, I don't think you'd let even a thread in which people were being completely polite and respectful run if there was even a hint of WotC criticism and debate about where the game is going from here. I mean, its easy to label a thread when it *gasp* makes criticisms of WotC. Back to that thin-skinned thing I guess. (Edited for a couple typos) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 21] Author : Tenzhi Date : 08-06-04 01:58 AM Thread Title : Re: An open message for the Wizos Originally posted by Strephon Alkhalikoi Better yet, just completely kill the forum, since it serves no useful purpose This forum serves the same purpose whether 3E gets mentioned from time to time or not. The purpose of the forum is not to segregate D&D players from each other, but rather to offer a place where the main topic of discussion is OOP material. Just because that is the main topic of discussion does not mean other material won't get mentioned from time to time - in the MM board Savage Species occasionally gets brought up; in every board under the sun the Best-Left-Forgotten Realms seems to receive honourable mention. Like it or not, it's all related. If complete segregation is what you're looking for, look somewhere else. In the meantime, other people do get a use out of this forum. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 22] Author : Halaster-Blackcloak Date : 08-06-04 02:27 AM WizO_Catoblepas wrote: Futhermore, since I was rained using the same training program that Paradox put together, I think we've got it. You may have gotten it, but it doesn't seem to me that you get it. There's a difference. Moderating the OOP board should not be as troublesome as you make it out to be. Simple common sense works. As for preferencial treatment of new editions versus old, figuring we get complaint post and e-mails going the other way (ie posts and e-mails like "You should stop all discussion about older editions since 3rd edition is the offiicial version by WotC"), I think we're in the middle on the subject. So you admit that there's emails being sent in saying that the OOP board should be deleted and done away with? Funny, I agree. It doesn't have to be an either/or thing. At any rate, when i comes to sides on this issue, the other side always believes that they've got it worse. That may be true, but in this case at least there is a definite, provable bias, and if need be I can drudge up some old posts to prove it. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 23] Author : vader42xx Date : 08-06-04 03:01 AM This is a sad sad day. Threads getting closed because somebody asks for help? Threads getting closed because they might lead to a flame war? A moderator saying "It's all about sales...?" And talk of shutting down one of the last OoP links WotC has anything to do with. I guess I'll just address the above in order and then give my thoughts at the end. First off, there were better ways to tell us that the conversion forum isn't going to happen. The original post gave the impression that we should have known about this a long time ago. Maybe that wasn't the idea but that's what it sounded like. And can we have a reason by any chance? The conversion forum is for your 3e boys, not for us. It allows THEM a place to ask how to questions. So if WotC isn't trying to kill off old edition products why won't you hook your 3e players up? Just curious. But, since the forum isn't going to exist, I'm not in agreement with those above who say ban 3e talks here. When I replied to the Tomb of Horrors question I wasn't angry that the guy asked (he has no better place and he IS a fellow gamer). I was angry that the WizOs hadn't given us an answer to a long overdue question (notice that I did help him). So if this is all we've got I say allow 3e talks. I don't want to punish 3e players who really want to run some of those old games just because WotC won't give them the forum they should have. And, besides, I want to be able to gripe about 3e if I feel like it. No, I don't think this should allow me to flame but I do think I should be able to offer constructive criticism regarding the new edition when others have questions. And I'm sorry, but saying the "chasing in" thread was closed because it might have gone into a flame war is a joke. If that's the case you guys need to shut down half the threads all over the board. Leave threads open that are not YET flame wars...even if they bash WotC. Is that a problem? And it's all about sales? Is that the image that WotC wants to project? I'm very much a realist and I understand that each and every company the world over is driven by money, thus they are driven by sales. But if that's ALL the company is driven by then it's a very poorly run company indeed. That's why we don't like WotC and the treatment they give the older editions (notice I said treatment and not attention). TSR may have been money hungry as well but it had some soul which WotC lacks. WotC has turned D&D into a cash cow and little else. You've even got a large number of 3e fans saying the books are coming too fast and with too little content. So let a poor old gamer give the huge corporation some advice...it's not all about sales. It's all about customers and that means customer service as well as taking the customer's money. OoP gamers are part of the history that WotC purchased. If they don't want that baggage then change the game's name to "Used to be D&D" and we'll go on our merry way. Finally, I'll leave the "close the forum" idea to you guys. It's not my call and telling us that it's in our hands is just another way of saying "do things our way or we'll take away your forum." That's all you guys and we can't really do anything about it anyway. At least not anything we're willing to do. So while I'm in favor of the forum staying up I think that goes without saying and I don't imagine it does anybody any good. But, on the bright side, if it does close I will be able to stop dealing with WotC 100% instead of the 99% I'm currently at. :) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 24] Author : Halaster-Blackcloak Date : 08-06-04 03:14 AM WizO_Paradox wrote: "OOP" stands for Out of Print (Yeah I know you know that.) By definition, if WotC "Paid attention" to it, it wouldn't be OOP That's a total cop-out. If WOTC truly and honestly wants to divorce itself from earlier OOP editions, then they should sell the rights to someone and be done with it. Period. Otherwise, they should recognize that OOP gamers put them on the map and respect them and show a little common courtesy. I don't think there are any grognards here who suffer from some illusion about WOTC ever reprinting various OOP editions. Ain't gonna happen. However, the ESD program could make plenty of money for them, if they bothered to do a better job of it (some of the scanned stuff is just terrible!). There's plenty of OOP stuff they can market through ESD. Being that it is no longer produced, there's not a heck of a lot we WizOs can do to improve any impressions people have on the "treatment" of the OOP boards. Where do you come up with this stuff? Seriously, it's like coming from way out by Pluto or something. You're telling me that there's nothing you can do to improve my impression of the WizOs? I can name a half dozen things easily. 1. Start setting a good example. In the past (distant as well as recent) I have seen snotty replies from WizOs here on the WOTC boards, I have seen WizOs break the code of conduct by using language which gets condemned by the very same WizO when a "guest" uses it (ie Catoblepas's "whine/whiners" comment). 2. Participate. Seems the WizOs never participate here unless and until it comes down to a flame war. Hell, if it's that much trouble, find an OOP fan to moderate it and keep it on topic. Which brings us to the next point... 3. Keep the OOP forum on topic. If I had a lousy nickel for every time someone here posted complaining about all the 3E-oriented threads that constantly pollute the OOP board, I'd have my medical school paid off! :eek: We've been complaining about that for years now. 4. Stop taking sides. I've seen this and been subjected to this bias for FOUR SOLID YEARS now. Even as far back as the days when 3E first came out, during the OOP board flame wars (which resulted because 3E fans invaded and attacked the OOP board) a handful of 3E people ADMITTED PUBLICLY that they were trolling and that they came to the OOP board simply to fight. And yet nothing was done to stop them. Meanwhile, more than a few good OOP gamers were banned for fighting back. It doesn't usually get that far nowadays, but there's still a palpable bias. The WizOs NEVER step in when someone bashes OOP stuff on the OOP board...they wait until someone fires back at 3E, then make it look like the thread was locked due to the post made by the OOP person. 5. Stop over-reacting. When OOP gamers say we want 3E discussion banned from the OOP section, that does NOT mean that we want a ban on typing the letters "3E" nor do we want a complete censoring of the word "3E". I don't think any of us have a problem with someone saying that they enjoy 3E, or that they used to game in 2E or 1E but now game in 3E, as long as the majority of their post is discussing OOP stuff and not reading like a recruitment manual for 3E. I don't want to hear some 3E gamer waltzing in here and babbling about how 2E was "too restrictive" and how 3E restored his enjoyment of the game. Post that where someone cares, not here. I've noticed that the WizOs tend to over-react and I believe it's on purpose, so that they can use the backlash of their over-reaction to beat down the OOP gamers' arguments later on. I see no problem with mentioning 3E, as long as the post does not: a) come off like a commercial endorsement for 3E, b) does not insist that 3E is better than earlier editions, and c) does not ask for information on how to convert OOP to 3E. OOP gamers would obviously be the last people on earth to ask about 3E rules. Common sense, huh? 6. Stop being so hair-trigger on shutting down threads. Catoblepas asked us to discuss the matter, and then shut the thread down before anyone could even reply. For a minute there earlier, I wondered if Catoblepas was going to simply unplug the entire OOP forum, the threads were getting locked so quickly! :eek: See, there's my quick half dozen suggestions on how you could vastly improve my impression of you. And if you can improve your impression on ME, you can improve your impression on ANYONE. We ARE open to suggestions You love saying that, but you loathe acting on it. And by acting on it I don't mean over-reacting, but rather using common sense. But, you do have to keep in mind that WotC does NOT make money on things already sold. If they re-printed the 2nd edition PHB, how many copies would you realisticly expect to buy? Honestly? I'd re-buy a PHB and a DMG, and probably half the Monstrous Compendium sheets if they were re-released. There's also a list of supplements I'd buy, like the ranger handbook, ninja handbook, City Sites, and a bunch of other stuff, especially stuff that was missed towards the end when nothing was on the shelves and products were not reordered. But I have no illusions about WOTC reissuing printed material. Ain't gonna happen. They're foolish though for cancelling the ESD program, when they could have made plenty of cash off it. Of course, with their Secret Squirrel ways, they never mentioned WHY they forced the companies offering the ESDs to cease immediately. So, any suggestions on how we can improve things? Don't forget to mention what should happen with OOP people that want to discuss 3e as well. It's very simple. OOP gamers tend not to have played 3E. Myself for example. I remember lots of rules from the 3E PHB and can look up and quote spell descriptions and rules in an argument, but since I don't play 3E and don't own the rulebooks any more, it's pointless for someone to come ask me how to convert their 1E ranger into a 3E half-dragon celestial vampiric monk kender. I have no clue, nor would I want a clue as to how to perform that dreadful task. Many (if not most) 3E gamers HAVE PLAYED some OOP editions, so questions about conversions should be directed to the 3E forums only. That's just common sense. OOP players who want to discuss 3E can go discuss it on any of the 572,000,000 3E-oriented forums that WOTC runs on these boards. Perhaps some "all-edition" gamers fail to realize (or rather refuse to realize) that many other OOP gamers are sick of hearing about 3E and don't want to mix editions. Bottom line, by banning DISCUSSION ABOUT (not mentioning of) 3E here in the OOP forums, you do not deny anyone anything. People looking for conversions can go to the more obvious and proper place for that info...the 3E boards. All-Edition gamers who want to discuss 3E are free to do so in any of the 6 dozen or so 3E-oriented forums. Strictly OOP gamers don't have 3E stuff slapped in their faces all the time. And finally, the WizOs don't have all the flame wars and complaints to deal with. Everyone wins. If people break those rules, warning, warning, banning. Just like it says in the CoC. Is that so hard to figure out? Also, a side note... I see nothing wrong with people posting that they don't like 3E, if they post it in the OOP forum. People who have a problem with are actually the ones with the problem. WOTC is not paying them by the hour to "protect" the reputation of 3E. By the same token, I could not care less what someone says about 2E on the 3E forums. I don't even bother to read it. Who cares? Let the 3E people claim that 2e was too restrictive or that 1E was too confusing or that they needed calculators to do simple grammar school math in AD&D. I don't care to correct them, nor do I care to refute them. They can't be persuaded anyway. So I don't bother "fighting the good fight" over there. HOWEVER...when someone steps into my little pond and starts piddling in my personal space, they're toying with "virtual vasectomy". :eek: :smirk: :D Don't come piddle in my pond and I have no problem with you. If 3E people acted the same way, there'd be no problems here in OOP. Notice that on Mortality we sometimes bring up 3E on the OOP forum, and people regularly mention their dislike of 3E there. However, using common sense moderating, it never blows into a flame war. Why is that? Why can't that happen here? I'll tell you why. Because people here cannot handle the fact that there are long time AD&D fans who are unhappy with how WOTC is conducting business, what they did to the game starting with 3E, etc. It's "thought police" mentality. Dissent is not allowed. Cease or be exterminated. Sounds like a bad 70's sci-fi thing, huh? [edit...fixed formatting...argh!] -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 25] Author : Gandalf_Istari Date : 08-06-04 03:23 AM One thing I forgot to mention earlier that kind of rankles me the wrong way is the notion that this OOP board is here for people who are not paying customers or people from whom WotC does not make any money; that since OOP people might exclusively play only an OOP edition of the game this automatically means that WotC makes no money from us and that we're just some kind of parasite around here. That attitude is insulting to me, and I'll be giving WotC offices a little phone call about that tomorrow. The fact is, I own nearly every 3rd edition hard cover book that WotC has put out, as well as many, many of the paper bound rulebooks, accessories and modules, as many of them can serve as a sourceof ideas for my campaigns even if I dislike the current ruleset. To imply that the people here on the OOP board in no way support WotC through their purchases is ludicrous. So let me give you a bit of advice Wizo's, since you are employees of WotC: don't imply that people on this OOP board are parasites that WotC is making no money from, because the fact of the matter is that some of us here ARE paying customers. To imply otherwise might be a bit impolitic, don't you think? Edit: Especially when WotC might want to sell me 4e stuff someday (or 5e, etc.). -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 26] Author : Halaster-Blackcloak Date : 08-06-04 03:47 AM WizO_Catoblepas wrote: As I noted in the thread posted on the top of the board, part of being an Out of Print edition is that you don't get support. My 10 year old laser printer is no longer produced. If it ever breaks, it will be cheaper for me to buy a new printer than it is to fix it. It just that the manufacturer doesn't support the product the same as the used to. A terrible analogy that drudges up exactly the mentality we OOP gamers insist exists here at WOTC. In other words, you're outdated. Assimilate or be exterminated. OOP AD&D cannot "break" and never needs replacing. I don't think any sane grognard (and I think most of us are sane...relatively ;) ) believes that WOTC can or even should start reprinting OOP material. Not that we wouldn't want it to happen, but no one thinks it will. I think I speak for most of us when I say that all we're looking for is common courtesy, respect, and fair/equitable treatment. And as I stated in the thread, it really is up to the guests to whether they want to keep this board or not. If you don't, continue to gripe. You've mentioned this so many times now, I am convinced beyond all doubt that WOTC is indeed at this moment actively considering closing the OOP forums. If continued "griping" helps them make that decision, then I for one will continue "griping" to help them make that decision, as I do not believe they are capable of managing a proper OOP forum any more. By the way, your use of the word "gripe" is almost as offensive and condescending as your use of the word "whine". According to the dictionary, "gripe" means "to complain or annoy". In common usage, the word conjures the image of someone presenting a fallacious or unfounded complaint to someone who is annoyed at the very mention of it. Another example of the language used by WizOs here to insult OOP gamers. These are not "gripes", they are legitimate complaints. Gripes are annoying, irritating, unfounded complaints. To call them gripes is to be dismissive of the complaint. Let's face it - WotC doesn't keep this board up to be a repository for complaints that the OoP editions are no longer printed. ONE THREAD mentions the fact that WOTC is not adequately representing OOP editions in its 30 year celebration thing, and somehow you hyperbolize (is that even a word?) it into OOP gamers using the OOP boards as a respository for complaints? :rolleyes: If the perception was true, then they would have never started this OoP board. After all, what profit does WotC make off of keeping an OoP board. We're discussing product that they no longer produce. And you've brought up a damning point. WOTC and Hasbro never do anything without a reason. Why would they pay for an OOP board if it gave then nothing in return? Indeed. They kept it up (though without showing fair treatment or respect) while the OOP ESD program was up and running. Recently they forced SVgames and what's his name...the other guy who was doing the ESD stuff...to cease and desist. WOTC themselves are not offering more ESD stuff. And lo and behold, now we hear all these thinly veiled "threats" from Catoblepas about WOTC shutting down the OOP forums. No more use for OOP gamers after all huh? Only a fool would fail to see what's going on behind the scenes. And before you respond to that, sit down...I actually AGREE! WOTC should wash its hands of the ESD program, OOP editions, and OOP gamers totally and entirely. This is not a bad thing. However, if this board is just one big gripefest concerning the OoP editions (where WotC is the target of such gripes), then in the eyes of WotC why keep the board? You're absolutely right. Why should they? Technically, if a person is truly an OoPer soley, then they aren't buying WotC products. Technically, you're wrong. If, as an OOP gamer who refuses to spend a single red cent on 3E or d20 stuff, I go to the various sites and purchase ESDs of various OOP material, which puts money into WOTC's pockets, then I am a customer. It's not my fault if they lack the common sense to make money off releasing all that OOP stuff on ESD. However, there gets to be a point where you're diluting the marketplace with various editions. There are marketing decisions to consider. Which is why they should sell off the rights to AD&D to someone else. They'd make tons of money in an outright sale, or tons of money "leasing it out". There are plenty of OOP gamers who would buy new product for OOP games, believe me. Well, this is the WotC message board, after all. I'm sure that there are places on the web to go. Any good search engine would help. Standard WOTC spokesperson reply. "We aren't interested in hearing criticism. Therefore, you can no longer discuss the D&D novels. Period." If that's not enough totalitarianism to turn my stomach, I'm not sure what is. I know it isn't the answer that you wanted to hear, but if you think about it, for example does the Ford website allow guests to come in and say, "The current F150 sucks!" ? It's not like I can go to Microsoft's website and post on their website "IE Explorer sticks!" Sure you can. And some of the better companies look at complaints, consider them, and try to do better by acting to correct problems which cause complaints. I guess WOTC doesn't subscribe to that business model. :rolleyes: Just go to the 3rd edition board in question and start a thread stating "I don't like this rule" and then follow it up with the reasons why. I'm sure that you'll start a discussion on the matter - maybe even a house rule. Just keep it polite and respectful and all will be fine. On what blissfully optimistic plane of existence do you reside? :angel: Do you really believe that if I went to one of the 3E boards and posted a polite complaint about how 3E gutted the risks for casting spells, that there would not be a flame war brewing within hours? Would you like to place money on that bet and let me test your theory? :smirk: Sorry, I totally disagree. SOMEONE will inevitably indulge themselves in the martyrdom of being "offended", which seems to be our new national sport. I say it's better to post a criticism of 3E here in the OOP board. Common sense would demand that people with any intelligence, common sense, or maturity would realize that the OOP board is populated by grognards who obviously do not like 3E (why else would they still be grognards?) and therefore would be a place prone to dismissive and critical posts about 3E. Don't want to hear about how people can't stand 3E? Then don't go to the OOP board. Don't want to hear about how 2E is too complicated and 3E is light years ahead of it? Don't go to the 3E boards. It's so simple, it's ridiculous. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 27] Author : Halaster-Blackcloak Date : 08-06-04 04:10 AM Elendur wrote: I really want to keep the OOP board around, because I really value the expertise available to help me run 1e modules. The Greyhawk board help me in this regard as well. In that case, there are plenty of better resources for OOP information elsewhere on the web. The fact is, most of the more knowledgable experts on OOP gaming no longer participate here because of all the disrespect and bias shown towards OOP gamers. I could name names, but we all know who they are and where they are. Stop by Mortality or Dragonsfoot and you'll see lots of participation by OOP gamers who can quote chapter and verse of various OOP games. Most of them used to post here, but no longer bother. I don't really understand why people feel so strong a need to vent about 3e and Wizards on this board You're missing the point so many different ways, it makes me want to scream. First of all, it's not that people feel the need to strongly vent about not liking 3E or WOTC. I think most people have the common sense to realize that no company wants to tolerate a forum that does nothing but bash its product...that's common sense. But what you seem to not realize is that these boards have a FOUR YEAR history of bias, disrespect for, and maltreatment of OOP gamers. As I have pointed out numerous times, 3E trolls at several points in the last 4 years have invaded the OOP boards and instigated flame wars, and while PUBLICLY ADMITTING IT, they were not disciplined, while OOP gamers were. In fact, collective punishment was inflicted on us. You also seem not to realize that if someone wants to complain about or talk down 3E, then the OOP boards would be the common sense best place to do so. You don't go where the 3E fans are and tell them "I hate your game". You go where other OOP gamers who don't like 3E reside. That's called common courtesy, as well as common sense. You also miss the point that if this board is called the OUT OF PRINT forum, then posting messages about how great 3E is, or how much easier and intuitive 3E is, or posting messages asking how to convert a 1E druid into a 3E half-dragon/half-celestial vampiric kender paladin/thief is wildly off topic. Therefore, those posts should not be allowed here. Its not going to change the status of OOP products, and it just gets in the way of the useful information. Sounds to me like you're someone who only cares about whether you can get "useful information", but not whether the people who provide you with the very information you seek are being treated equitably and with respect. :mad: -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 28] Author : Halaster-Blackcloak Date : 08-06-04 04:12 AM Gandalf_Istari wrote: Well considering that the suggestion of a conversion board was completely refused, I'm not sure what to suggest as it seems that our suggestions on the OOP boards mean as much to WotC as older editions do, (i.e., next to nothing). That's a good point. We gave them a well thought out, totally logical, common sense, actually workable solution to the problem, and they spit on it. It's not rocket science, it's common sense. Fights break out on the OOP board because people come in here talking about how 3E is the greatest invention since the flushable toilet, and all hell breaks loose. SURPRISE! That's like having John Kerry crash the Republican convention to talk about how "great" the Democratic platform is. What kind of reaction do you think it would cause? There are plenty of forums for those who want to discuss and play 3E. There is only one forum for those who don't want to discuss 3E, but rather want to discuss only OOP editions. If you allow 3E posts and arguments and edition comparisons on the OOP board, then not only is it being posted in the wrong forum, not only are you ******* off the OOP gamers, but you're also diluting the very essence and concept of an OOP forum. The clearly obvious, common sense, intelligent thing to do would be to form an edition conversion/comparison forum. We've gone over all that a hundred times, but apparently WOTC still can't understand it. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 29] Author : Gandalf_Istari Date : 08-06-04 04:38 AM Halaster, your PM box is still full. :( -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 30] Author : Halaster-Blackcloak Date : 08-06-04 04:40 AM Vader42xx wrote: First off, there were better ways to tell us that the conversion forum isn't going to happen. The original post gave the impression that we should have known about this a long time ago. I am convinced (and no argument will change my mind) that WOTC has been wanting to shut down the OOP forum for some time now. They just wanted to wait until they had a "good reason" that would enable them to paint the OOP gamers as the bad guys...ie disruptive, non-paying problem makers. We're hearing the threats issued through their mouthpieces, ie the WizOs. You heard it straight from the horse's mouth...they may close the OOP forum regardless, and if we keep "whining" and "griping" (love the condescending language), then they'll use that as their excuse. So if WotC isn't trying to kill off old edition products why won't you hook your 3e players up? Just curious. Obviously because it would prove us right and them wrong. It would fix the problem they created, and thus deprive them of the excuse they seem to desire in order to allow them to close the OOP forum while casting blame on everyone but themselves. So if this is all we've got I say allow 3e talks It's not all you got. Why settle for tainted table scraps from an ungrateful, uncaring master? There are much better OOP forums on the web, where the members as well as moderators truly love and respect OOP editions. Where the truly knowledgeable OOP gamers reside. I don't want to punish 3e players who really want to run some of those old games just because WotC won't give them the forum they should have. WOTC can't punish them. Other websites offer much better support for those people, including several which are putting out new material for OOP editions. FREE! And, besides, I want to be able to gripe about 3e if I feel like it. The other boards allow it, unlike WOTC. WotC has turned D&D into a cash cow and little else. Yes, while ignoring the fact that they could be making money off OOP gamers. Actually, after all these years of abuse, I think perhaps it's too late. I for one would NEVER pay for a product put out by WOTC, not even if it meant not getting new stuff. OoP gamers are part of the history that WotC purchased. If they don't want that baggage then change the game's name to "Used to be D&D" and we'll go on our merry way. Exactly. I refuse to believe them when they claim there'd be no market for OOP material. If they sold the rights to someone who cared, there'd be plenty of people for the new company to sell it to. Finally, I'll leave the "close the forum" idea to you guys. It's not my call and telling us that it's in our hands is just another way of saying "do things our way or we'll take away your forum." And that's literally what it is. We OOP players demand some common courtesy, respect, and equitable, fair treatment, and what does WOTC issue through its mouthpieces? "Stop whining, stop griping, or we'll just shut down your pathetic little corner of the WOTC forums." Condescending language like "whining" and "gripes" of course tell us quite a bit about WOTC mentality on the matter. Bottom line, the WOTC OOP forums are not needed. There are tons of other sites doing more with OOP, doing it better, doing it friendlier, doing it right. There's no need to stay in an abusive relationship with a company that ***** on positive, workable solutions, but instead casts thinly veiled threats and condescending remarks to those who are trying to make it a better place. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 31] Author : Halaster-Blackcloak Date : 08-06-04 04:45 AM Gandalf_Istari, try now. I just deleted EVERY post in my folder, it can't possibly be full now. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 32] Author : Gandalf_Istari Date : 08-06-04 04:49 AM Originally posted by Halaster-Blackcloak Gandalf_Istari, try now. I just deleted EVERY post in my folder, it can't possibly be full now. Nope, my PM was still bounced. :mad: EDIT: I did get that last PM of yours however. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 33] Author : Halaster-Blackcloak Date : 08-06-04 04:56 AM Damned broken WOTC system. :mad: I'll email you my address, just email me directly. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 34] Author : vader42xx Date : 08-06-04 05:00 AM Halaster, when I said "if that's all we've got" I meant if that's the only way to help our fellow gamers. I'd rather deal with a little 3e talk (that doesn't just say 3e is great everything else blows) than tell my fellow gamer to hit the road because he plays another edition. So I don't mind conversion questions IF WotC won't put up a better place for them. Besides, the more they ask about older editions the more they prove they aren't happy with the current edition...let them come. :) As for going to another (better) board I don't really want to do that. I like the guys that hang around this forum and as much as I hate 3e I like to keep current on what the buzz is. So I want to know what the 3e player thinks and I like to be around here to help show them something better (don't worry WizOs, only if they come to me looking for it, I'm not out to convert anybody). So, yeah, I COULD just run for the other side which, in this case, really is greener. But that doesn't fix the problem here and I'd like to give that a shot. It may not mean much but I choose to stay and fight. ;) Otherwise I pretty much agree with everything you've said. I'm also quite convinced that WotC is just looking for a way to shut this forum down (and probably has been for some time) just as they wish they could erase the memory of older editions. What's more, there is a HUGE market for OoP editions but the reason WotC won't sell the rights or produce the books themselves is simple. There is a MARKET for these products but so long as WotC owns the rights to them there is no SUPPLY of these products. So they're not willing to have any competition (either created by themselves or another company that they might sell the rights to). So it's simply a matter of "if you want D&D you'll buy 3e." That's why they stopped allowing people to produce more pdf files of older editions as well. It's also why I've washed my hands of "the future of D&D." If this is the future then I'll live in the past. I used to give WotC my money but no longer. I don't care what they produce, until they start treating me, as a customer, better I'll give my money to companies that do. Guess that makes me a parasite, but WotC need only look in the mirror to see who is at fault for that one. :) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 35] Author : Tenzhi Date : 08-06-04 05:21 AM Originally posted by Halaster-Blackcloak Stop over-reacting Good advice on all accounts... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 36] Author : Halaster-Blackcloak Date : 08-06-04 05:24 AM Vader42xx wrote: Halaster, when I said "if that's all we've got" I meant if that's the only way to help our fellow gamers. Ah, I see! That went right over my head. :D So I don't mind conversion questions IF WotC won't put up a better place for them. Besides, the more they ask about older editions the more they prove they aren't happy with the current edition...let them come. That is a good point, that second part. Problem is, there's precious little OOP talk here as it is, and if you dilute that with constant posts about 3E, then why the need for an OOP forum in the first place? Seems like a lot of resource devoted for nothing. As for going to another (better) board I don't really want to do that. I like the guys that hang around this forum and as much as I hate 3e I like to keep current on what the buzz is. I can appreciate what you're saying. But consider this... 1. Most if not all of the cool people who post here in the WOTC OOP forum post even moreso on other OOP forums. Mortality, Dragonsfoot, etc...they post there all the time, in greater volume and depth (although in a few cases with different user names). So you won't be losing old friends, you'd be adding new ones on top of staying in touch with the older ones. 2. It's easy to keep up with the current buzz regardless. Hell, most of the buzz about new stuff that reaches my ear reaches it not through the WOTC site, but through another site (whose administrator prefers we not mention it by name in these WOTC war threads) where 3E gets the Pazuzu bashed out of it (there's a clue ;) ) and yet there's no flame wars and the depth and knowledge of OOP stuff there is staggering. Of course, it's due to the 3E bashing there that I hear all the latest buzz. :smirk: So really, I don't see it as a bad thing if they close this OOP forum. So I want to know what the 3e player thinks and I like to be around here to help show them something better (don't worry WizOs, only if they come to me looking for it, I'm not out to convert anybody). Mortality would be the perfect place to do that. And there are no flame wars there. It's open for all editions and edition wars and bashing simply do not happen because the moderators do not allow it to happen. They have some awesome moderators there. I should know, I'm one of them! :D (Ok, so I toot my own horn...fireball me!) ;) But that doesn't fix the problem here and I'd like to give that a shot. It may not mean much but I choose to stay and fight. Gotta learn to pick your battles. This one is unwinnable. First, you're outnumbered thousands to one. Second, the owners as well as the moderators are extremely biased. We've judged both based on their actions for the last 4 years. Nothing has changed except that they're much quicker on the trigger finger to lock down posts that should not be locked down. You cannot win and you will not be allowed to win. Trust me. There is no nobility in dying for a lost cause. And if there was ever a lost cause that I have seen, it's the WOTC OOP forum. Four years of effort and what do we still get? We're called whiners and gripers and when we ask for changes for the betterment of everyone, we're told to assimilate and get with the program or blow away. I'm also quite convinced that WotC is just looking for a way to shut this forum down (and probably has been for some time) just as they wish they could erase the memory of older editions. Yup. The writing is on the wall and obvious to anyone who's not alseep or blind. But as I said, that's a good thing. WOTC is doing everyone a disservice by its mismanagement of the OOP forum, its refusal to implement sane, common sense solutions, and the obviously condescending and rude language used by the moderators...language which when used by "guests" gets the thread locked and the poster issued a warning. :rolleyes: What's more, there is a HUGE market for OoP editions but the reason WotC won't sell the rights or produce the books themselves is simple. There is a MARKET for these products but so long as WotC owns the rights to them there is no SUPPLY of these products. The problem for them is that they can't stop anyone from creating and sharing new OOP stuff for AD&D. For example, I've been working on the Back In Print Project over at Mortality, but it's been slow going because between school, work, and family, I can't seem to get anything done. Also, artists willing to work for free seem to be as rare as hen's teeth. Still, that's probably only because I don't have enough free time at the moment to look more diligently. Even if WOTC did the Nazi thing and issued me a personal cease and desist or worse yet shot one off to Adlon (who runs Mortality), they can't do anything to prevent a bunch of fans from privately sharing new material. I'd welcome a lawsuit over that. So it's simply a matter of "if you want D&D you'll buy 3e." That's why they stopped allowing people to produce more pdf files of older editions as well. It's also why I've washed my hands of "the future of D&D." If this is the future then I'll live in the past. Yup. There's technically no need for new material outside of fan hunger for new ideas and stuff to spend money on really. I doubt anyone has played anywhere near even a fraction of all the material generated between OD&D, Basic, and 1E and 2E. There's enough to last lifetimes. Hell, I'm mapping out the entirety of Undermountain, and that material alone would provide enough game material to last me until I'm 100 years old and sitting around with my fellow grognards in the nursing home! :D -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 37] Author : vader42xx Date : 08-06-04 07:39 AM Agreed on every count...but I guess I'm not ready to give up this battle, a lost cause though it may be. ;) Charge!! :fight!: -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 38] Author : vader42xx Date : 08-06-04 07:41 AM Darnit Hal, send me your e-mail address as well would ya? I can't pm you either. ;) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 39] Author : Halaster-Blackcloak Date : 08-06-04 08:22 AM Ok, I just enabled my email address so that people who want to talk to me privately can do so. Potential spammers (and OOP haters) beware, the email address is a throw-away one, and it has extensive filters anyway. :smirk: -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 40] Author : WizO_Paradox Date : 08-06-04 08:39 AM Ah, the wonders of a good night's sleep to gain a fresh perspecitve. A few points I'd like to throw out there until later when I have more time. 1. I appologize to anyone who's felt slighted by anything either myself or my WizOs have said. I will be talking with not only Catoblepas about it, but the others as well. 2. I have been posting on the OOP forums. I've noticed that the posts by the WizO name has tended to be ignored. Probably all the negative cooments about being a corporate srhill or somesuch. (But, we can't force people to reply. If people are interested in my thoughts, they'd respond.) So, I've used a MUP. 3. I'm just as disappointed in not getting a conversion board. I think it would have worked well, going both ways. But what can you do when your boss says no? I tried to make it happen, and it failed. But I should note that it didn't fail because I'm a bad WizO. It failed because the powers that be don't want it for whatever reason. 4. We didn't "threaten" to pull the plug on the forum. It was a friendly heads up that the sort of comments I saw on one of the forums was bad enough that if no action was taken, the whole forum might be closed down by the powers that be. Are there other techniques we could have used? Yes, but before we could go back to the thread to examine it and give warnings or whatnot, this discussion popped up. Believe what you want, but we're trying to SAVE the forum. We don't allow that sort of game designer bashing on any of the forums. And many of the current employees worked on the older editions as well. 5. It's not a lost cause. There was an idea I suggested before, but people didn't want to try it because they felt it would be yet another slight to OOP. Which it wouldn't be. I don't see much OOP conversations going. That's not the WizOs fault. If people don't want to talk OOP, we can't force them to. (I'm looking for threads started by Halaster in the OOP, and it must be my computer, because I don't see them. Sorry for using you as an example, but it's such a good one.) If you want the OOP forums to be the greatest place on the web, you guys have to make it so. It's not up to the WizOs to do it for you. You guys need to help us by reporting threads. If that doesn't work, try contacting one of the othe WizOs. If that doesn't work, then you let me know about it so I can find out if someone is slacking off, or deal with the situation myself. 6. Further proof the WizOs are all for the OOP people and not being biased- The newsletter invitation. Have you submitted your articles yet? (Not to mention all those OOP avatars I scanned in.) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 41] Author : diaglo Date : 08-06-04 08:41 AM Originally posted by WizO_Paradox It's not difficult. We did that. The OOP fans were not happy they couldn't slam 3e anymore and asked the restriction be dropped. wasn't me. i tried to report all of those snide comments. i was a happy camper keeping the 2000ed out of the OoP forum. the latest news has not made me happy tho. after reading the other thread and this one about the possible closure of this the OoP forum. i may not be back if and i guess when it happens. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 42] Author : diaglo Date : 08-06-04 08:44 AM Originally posted by WizO_Paradox Revisionist history? Heh! I needed the laugh, thanks! We didn't over react. It's exactly what you guys wanted us to do. "NO mention of 3e at all!" Those sorts of statements led right to the same old flame wars again and again, which you guys wanted. The above would prompt post such as: "Yeah, 3e stinks!" "I don't know why they wasted time with 3e!" "They should never have bothered with 3e! 2E was better!" Which, invariably lead to someone who likes all editions putting in his two cents. "3e isn't that bad." And another flame war would erupt. All because someone had to comment they didn't like 3e rather than just staying "How do I convert 1E to 2E?" I'll bet if we ignore those flame wars, we'd STILL get "You guys don't care about this fourm! It's poorly moderated!" It would be nice if you stopped making us out to be the bad guys, because we're not. i think you are missing the other comments here Doxxie. the ones i reported. edit: from both sides. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 43] Author : WizO_Paradox Date : 08-06-04 08:44 AM Sigh. It's not a "possible closure". It's "Guys, quit personally bashing the writers/designers/WotC before they see it and decide to close it". You want a forum to discuss OOP, right? Then that's what it should be used for. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 44] Author : diaglo Date : 08-06-04 08:50 AM Originally posted by WizO_Catoblepas Let's keep the discussion civil. Thanks. if you notice i stayed out of the other thread for some time. i only joined the fray when a few "invaders"/"trollers"/ "baiters" wanted an explanation why any sane person would play OoP material. or call those who like older material into question. the gate swings both ways. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 45] Author : diaglo Date : 08-06-04 08:55 AM Originally posted by WizO_Paradox (I'm looking for threads started by Halaster in the OOP, and it must be my computer, because I don't see them. Sorry for using you as an example, but it's such a good one.) i could show you some from over the last 4 years. many of them were invaded and eventually closed. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 46] Author : Halaster-Blackcloak Date : 08-06-04 09:12 AM WizO_Paradox wrote: 1. I appologize to anyone who's felt slighted by anything either myself or my WizOs have said. I will be talking with not only Catoblepas about it, but the others as well. No offense, but I think we've heard that tune before. Actions will speak louder than words. 2. I have been posting on the OOP forums. I've noticed that the posts by the WizO name has tended to be ignored. Probably all the negative cooments about being a corporate srhill or somesuch. Ok, maybe this is just my own mindset, but somehow the majority of the time when I read a post by a WizO that isn't a moderation post (ie, not a warning issue, etc), they just feel...I don't know what word to use...I don't want to say disingenuous. It's like...it sounds fake. Sorta like posting just for the sake of throwing something in as opposed to posting a real opinion. I don't know, maybe it's just me. 3. I'm just as disappointed in not getting a conversion board. I think it would have worked well, going both ways. But what can you do when your boss says no? Personally, I'd break out the clue-bat and beat some sense into him. :smirk: 4. We didn't "threaten" to pull the plug on the forum. It was a friendly heads up that the sort of comments I saw on one of the forums was bad enough that if no action was taken, the whole forum might be closed down by the powers that be. Honestly, I'm feeling insulted by that line. Like I can't read between the lines. I'd bet my life there's more to it than we're being told. As usual. 5. It's not a lost cause. There was an idea I suggested before, but people didn't want to try it because they felt it would be yet another slight to OOP. Which idea was that? I can't recall it, but I do recall that you posted an idea that was so utterly non-productive that I had to bite my tongue. Ah! Are you talking about your idea of moving the OOP forum further away from the other D&D forums? Because if so, that's quite possibly the most useless suggestion I've ever heard, no offense. It does nothing to address the problems. The comparison board was the best solution, it was perfect. Why? Well for one, [b]I[/i] suggested it. :D Second, it did everything that needed to be done to correct the problem and was fair treatment for everyone. The same thing can pretty much be accomplished though, by simply banning discussion of (as opposed to mentioning of) 3E stuff here on the OOP board. Conversion info would more appropriately be placed on the various 3E forums. But for some reason you have this total resistance to a totally workable solution, as does WOTC. No reasons given of course. And you wonder why so many of us question the motives of Wotc/WizOs? (I'm looking for threads started by Halaster in the OOP, and it must be my computer, because I don't see them. Sorry for using you as an example, but it's such a good one.) Actually, that's a very good example. I don't post here much at all, simply and totally because of the way OOP gamers and the OOP editions are treated. If I saw things improve, I'd throw my hat in the ring more often. There are a LOT of very knowledgeable OOP gamers who also avoid this place like the plague. I'd bet they'd feel like posting more if things were better around here. I'm sure of it. You guys need to help us by reporting threads. If that doesn't work, try contacting one of the othe WizOs. If that doesn't work, then you let me know about it so I can find out if someone is slacking off, or deal with the situation myself. Paradox, let's be honest now. Seriously. How many YEARS have we been complaining about all the off topic 3E posts here in the OOP forum? And how many times have you personally gotten involved in threads discussing that very issue in the last year alone? That's one of our major complaints...it makes no sense to complain to the WizOs because they can't (ie Conversion Forum) or won't (ie ban 3E discussion) do what needs doing to fix the place. 6. Further proof the WizOs are all for the OOP people and not being biased- The newsletter invitation. Have you submitted your articles yet? (Not to mention all those OOP avatars I scanned in.) Just stop and think for a moment...don't react, just think. Put yourself in the shoes of some of the OOP old timers. People who have repeatedly seen preferential treatment and anti-OOP bias by WizOs (for 4 years now), people who have been personally insulted and reprimanded by WizOs in public, people who were banned for speaking their mind about not liking 3E while at the same time publicly admitted trolls who publicly stated that their only reason for coming to the OOP board was to fight were allowed to continue flaming OOP editions and gamers. Now imagine that on top of all this, you could no longer buy new ESDs of OOP stuff. Imagine feeling your game was being spat upon. Would you want anything to do with such a company? Would you contribute anything to them? I think the problem is that a great many OOP gamers feel marginalized and discriminated against, and the WizOs and WOTC highers ups either cannot or will not admit that fact and act on it. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 47] Author : Tenzhi Date : 08-06-04 09:44 AM Originally posted by Halaster-Blackcloak That is a good point, that second part. Problem is, there's precious little OOP talk here as it is, and if you dilute that with constant posts about 3E, then why the need for an OOP forum in the first place? Conversion threads aren't a "dilution" as long as they're concerning OOP material. Conversion threads are, in fact, "OOP talk" of a sort - though it may not be talk that is to everyone's liking. Meta-board threads like this one, however, are most certainly a "dilution" (if one can be said to dilute molasses). So really, I don't see it as a bad thing if they close this OOP forum. Of course, you carry with you a certain bias in that regards. There are those of us who like this section here just the way it is. If anyone thinks they would be better off without this board - well, there is an obvious solution that you keep mentioning... and yet you're still here. All these OOP Edens presumably exist out there, and here you remain erecting a temple on top of Mt. St. Molehill. Why is that, exactly? Mortality would be the perfect place to do that. And there are no flame wars there. ...advertisement, perhaps? Second, the owners as well as the moderators are extremely biased. We've judged both based on their actions for the last 4 years. Nothing has changed except that they're much quicker on the trigger finger to lock down posts that should not be locked down. You cannot win and you will not be allowed to win. Trust me. There is no nobility in dying for a lost cause. Or perhaps just a persistent need to continuously harangue and berate the WizOs? I'd lay odds a dollar to a dog-biscuit that if someone was so rude towards the mods at Mortality.net they'd be banned like an armpit on prom night. Or am I just imagining the overwhelming condescension? Seems thick enough to cut with a knife, but I am peering at the thread through a fog of weariness. EDIT: Heaven forfend that anyone should be insulted by an appropriate adjective. Here, let me replace it with a synonym so as not to emotionally scar the faint of heart. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 48] Author : Halaster-Blackcloak Date : 08-06-04 09:49 AM Quick! WizO alert! I've been insulted! :rolleyes: Tenzhi wrote (in reply to something I said): "I'd lay odds a dollar to a dog-biscuit that if someone was so asinine towards the mods at Mortality.net they'd be banned like an armpit on prom night." Is it ok now to call someone's post "asinine"? Not that I care. Just pointing out yet another example of how certain people always toss around insults when they disagree with something they've read. :rolleyes: -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 49] Author : diaglo Date : 08-06-04 10:03 AM i've gone back a bit to rereport threads i did in the past. and got no reply on back then. i'll not rereport all of them. but just a few of the ones i did report when they were initially posted. just checking how committed the WizOs are to keeping this place clean. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 50] Author : havard Date : 08-06-04 10:33 AM Originally posted by diaglo just checking how committed the WizOs are to keeping this place clean. why? Havard -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 51] Author : diaglo Date : 08-06-04 10:35 AM Originally posted by havard why? Havard why not? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 52] Author : Tenzhi Date : 08-06-04 10:35 AM Originally posted by Halaster-Blackcloak Just pointing out yet another example of how certain people always toss around insults when they disagree with something they've read. :rolleyes: There are worse things to do when one disagrees with something. For instance: starting an entire thread whose main purpose seems to be to condescend to the moderators, berate the board providers, lobby for the closure of a forum to suit one's own selfish goals in the guise of betterment for all, and practice a little self-aggrandizement and advertisement on the side. Yessiree, that's a far bigger fish to fry than a simple adjective. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 53] Author : Halaster-Blackcloak Date : 08-06-04 11:23 AM Tenzhi, until you can prove you've been there and been subjected to what others have been put through here, you're simply not entitled to an opinion about it. Go read my post here: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=4136638#post4136638 That will give you some clue as to what OOP people have been subjected to and why we feel justified in being "snippy" and condescending towards the moderators. And by the way, you're a MUP for which WizO? :rolleyes: -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 54] Author : Bacon and Eggs Date : 08-06-04 12:02 PM Originally posted by Halaster-Blackcloak Tenzhi, until you can prove you've been there and been subjected to what others have been put through here, you're simply not entitled to an opinion about it. Go read my post here: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=4136638#post4136638 I followed the link to find out what the issue here is and it seems that there is a problem with being subject to lines like this From the provided link: "Halaster, having never played 3e, should not opine on 3e. And if he does, people should recognize the vapidity of his opinion and discount it appropriately." So what's different? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 55] Author : Aliquid Date : 08-06-04 12:27 PM Halaster-Blackcloak: Two small comments. 1. Just because someone decides to defend a WizO's comments does not make them a MUP, you shouldn't be so hard on Tenzhi 2. A lot of your frustrations appear to be with people who are "trolling" the OOP boards with pro 3rd Edition comments. Why don't you just ignore them? The easiest way to get rid of a troll is to ignore their comments. Stop taking the bait. Just remember, a flame war takes two sides for it to work... It doesn't matter who started it. If you stop participating in it, it will die. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 56] Author : vader42xx Date : 08-06-04 12:56 PM That may be what Hal is griping about in part but it's not all of what he's talking about. And, even if it were, it's not what is on everyone's mind. I (and most here from what I can tell) have nothing against the mods as people. They're doing a job and that's that. But, as representatives of WotC (a company many of us find to have a terrible business ethic) they are going to catch flak. It's that simple and I think they understand that. So long as we're not screaming at them or slinging insults they seem to handle themselves as they should. If both sides get a little hot under the collar from time to time...well, what else can you except from such a sensative subject? As to Hal's thoughts on 3e, I can't speak for him but I played it from the time it hit the shelves (bought every preview I could find and even pre-ordered all three core books) up until about three months ago. So does it make you feel better if I agree with everything he's said about 3e? Whether he's played it or not, he obviously has looked into it and given it serious consideration because he's not just spouting random junk. All of his comments on 3e are valid from my point of view and I played it long enough to have a "valid" opinion. But this thread isn't supposed to be a trash the mods thread or a trash 3e thread. We're trying to decide the fate of the OoP board. So I've got an idea. WizOs...let one of us moderate this forum (and only this forum). Is that possible? Pick the most level headed old gamer you can find and see if he's acceptable to the boys upstairs and put him in charge of keeping an eye on this forum. He'd have to follow the CoC of course (so no 3e flaming just cause he's a mod, etc) but it's a show of faith and it gives us someone we know is concerned about our issues. What say you...at least willing to consider it? :) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 57] Author : Halaster-Blackcloak Date : 08-06-04 01:01 PM Aliquid wrote: 1. Just because someone decides to defend a WizO's comments does not make them a MUP, you shouldn't be so hard on Tenzhi Did you ever stop to think that perhaps I would not have been so "hard" on him had he not walked into the thread and started insulting me with a snotty attitude? 2. A lot of your frustrations appear to be with people who are "trolling" the OOP boards with pro 3rd Edition comments. Why don't you just ignore them? The easiest way to get rid of a troll is to ignore their comments. Stop taking the bait. In a perfect world, your argument would hold up. Problem is, this is obviously not a perfect world. If it were, we would not need WizOs and codes of conduct. In the real world, peoples' patience has limits, everyone has a limit. Someone, some day, will get fed up and the flames start. Your argument also shifts the responsibility away from those who instigate trouble and put the burden on those who are not looking for trouble. That's why I totally disagree with it. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 58] Author : Aliquid Date : 08-06-04 01:28 PM Originally posted by Halaster-Blackcloak In a perfect world, your argument would hold up. Problem is, this is obviously not a perfect world. If it were, we would not need WizOs and codes of conduct. In the real world, peoples' patience has limits, everyone has a limit. Someone, some day, will get fed up and the flames start. Your argument also shifts the responsibility away from those who instigate trouble and put the burden on those who are not looking for trouble. That's why I totally disagree with it. I'm sorry, I was a bit too vague with my statement. I did not mean to imply that the burden should be put on those who are not looking for trouble. The Troll who starts the issue *is* to blame for the problem, but for someone to take the bait simply perpetuates the problem, and encourages the Troll to continue his immature behaviour. I am simply saying that if you are part of a flame war, you have the power to stop it... by simply not responding. There are many people who are looking for arguments, and it doesn't matter how well structured your side of the debate is... they will always disagree with you because they want to argue. They don't even listen to your side of the story. With those people you are wasting your energy by trying to convince them of anything... simply ignore them, arguing with them will accomplish nothing. Did you ever stop to think that perhaps I would not have been so "hard" on him had he not walked into the thread and started insulting me with a snotty attitude? That goes back to my original concept. You are perpetuating a problem. His comment may have been a bit condescending, but for you to come back on the aggressive... that's just perpetuating the problem. Not to mention that it is very easy to misunderstand the attitude behind what people type. There are times when I am being serious and people mistake it for sarcasm.... etc. Without facial expressions and tone of voice, it is very easy to miss-read what a person types. As such, it is actually possible that Tenzhi was simply being silly, trying to lighten the mood, and wasn't intending on being condescending at all. Now I am not saying that this is definitely the case, but it is a possibility, and for you to respond with an aggressive response, you now have put him on the defensive, and you have started an argument. There have been times where people have responded to me with comments I found insulting. I have responded with something like "hey, that was uncalled for". The majority of the time, they apologise, and say "sorry, that's not what I intended to say". Not to mention there have been times where I have had to apologise for things I said that people took in the wrong manner.. If you automatically assume someone is trying to argue with you... then you will create a self-fulfilling prophecy. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 59] Author : Halaster-Blackcloak Date : 08-06-04 01:32 PM Bacon and Eggs asked: So what's different? I'd think that would be obvious just by reading the examples. You selected merely one of a few dozen quotes. But since you seem to be honest about asking, I'll address that specifically. First of all, Tenzhi's posts on the matter all seem to constitute nothing other than personal attacks on me. He called me "asinine", he accused me of "advertising" for Mortality merely because I mentioned the place, he questioned my motives and called me selfish. All of that does not add up to a feeling of respect for him or his opinion. Right there, that gives me cause to ignore his opinion as irrelevant. Second, Tenzhi was not in the early wars. He's registered from March of 2002. Many of those fights started in 2000. Even the ones in 2002 he was not part of. Since he was not involved in them, he has no business commenting on who's right or wrong because he has no direct experience of it. On the other hand, in those wars I referenced, I and other OOP fans would quote (chapter and verse) various 3E rules and explain why we did not like them. Note that I said we explained why we personally did not like them. We never said anyone was dumb for using 3E rules or made personal attacks. And yet the trolls who came in and invaded the OOP board insisted (as you can read in the quotes provided by me in that link) that our opinions were invalid and irrelevant, they made countless personal insults, etc. Our views were not irrelevant because we read the rules and played the game and found it not to our liking. We were dismissed as irrelevant not because we did not know what we were talking about or had no experiene on the matter, but because we simply did not agree with the person doing the attacking. See the difference? I think I need to point something out. It's not a matter of ignoring trolls or "taking the higher ground" or any such lofty idealistic nonsense. The problem was not that we were insulted or attacked. The problem was that we were doing nothing more than minding our own business in our own little forgotten corner, and trolls came in and attacked us mercilessly, and when we defended ourselves, the supposedly impartial moderators sided with the attackers while we got punished for defending ourselves. This isn't a perfect world, so advice to "ignore the trolls" is a totally ignorant statement...ie it ignores the reality of the world, and that reality is that people react. Period. It's not so much about being attacked. It's about unfair biased treatment. I personally offered the WizOs a solution...create a Flame War board. I had no problem with duking it out 6-on-1 with the attacking trolls all by myself if need be. I don't need a WizO_Mommy to fight my battles and look out for me. But of course, that wasn't an option. So while the WizOs are charged with enforcing the CoC in a fair manner, that's what we expected from them. It was not what we got. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 60] Author : Tenzhi Date : 08-06-04 01:32 PM Originally posted by Halaster-Blackcloak That will give you some clue as to what OOP people have been subjected to and why we feel justified in being "snippy" and condescending towards the moderators. A murderer or thief may feel justified in their actions as well - it doesn't necessarily make them right either. And by the way, you're a MUP for which WizO? :rolleyes: Believe you me, were I a WizO I would not fear making a virtual martyr of you as they seem to. I've honestly never seen them put up with so much crud from anyone before. Your rallying cry this time around boils down to "if I can't have it exactly my way, then no one should have it at all" - that's a real mature outlook. And then you complain about terms like "whine" and "gripe" - if the shoe fits either wear it or try to grow out of it. For my part, I don't have a problem with your basic complaints (though I may still disagree with some of them), but rather your methods. There's a proper way to go about this sort of thing. Sometimes that way doesn't get the results you wanted, but that's the way the world works - you either learn to accept it when things don't work out or you pout and become "snippy" about it. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 61] Author : WizO_Sith Date : 08-06-04 01:35 PM Ok, Cato (being a far better WizO than I), has already said "Play Nice" in a far more civil manner than I could manage under similar circumstances. So now it's time for Sith to get involved. I'm not asking, I'm telling. ==>THESE<== (www.wizards.com/coc) are the rules. You agreed, and signed a legally binding contract in good faith, to abide by them before you were ever granted a screen name on these forums. If you cannot (or will not) live up to you agreement, YOU WILL BE REMOVED FROM THESE FORUMS. If it takes a letter from WotC's Legal Department to your Internet Provider to do it, I will see it done. BEHAVE -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 62] Author : Gandalf_Istari Date : 08-06-04 01:43 PM Originally posted by WizO_Paradox 1. I appologize to anyone who's felt slighted by anything either myself or my WizOs have said. I will be talking with not only Catoblepas about it, but the others as well. I appreciate the apology. I hope in the future WotC employees will refrain from implying that their paying customers are parasites who hang around these OOP boards without bringing a scrap of cash into WotC's coffers, as this attitude is pure insult as far as I'm concerned. 2. I have been posting on the OOP forums. I've noticed that the posts by the WizO name has tended to be ignored. Probably all the negative cooments about being a corporate srhill or somesuch. (But, we can't force people to reply. If people are interested in my thoughts, they'd respond.) So, I've used a MUP. Well I for one have appreciated your replies in threads and don't go out of my way to ignore Wizo's postings. For example, in my thread from a few weeks ago when I was asking for information about the 2e Monstrous Compendiums/Manuals, you gave me useful info (as did others) and I acknowledged that. 3. I'm just as disappointed in not getting a conversion board. I think it would have worked well, going both ways. But what can you do when your boss says no? I tried to make it happen, and it failed. But I should note that it didn't fail because I'm a bad WizO. It failed because the powers that be don't want it for whatever reason. I for one am not blaming you for that the idea of a conversion board got shot down. However, don't you think it might have been more appropriate to announce that in a stick or something rather than Wizo Catoblepas tossing that out there after locking threads? Can't you see how that comes across as purposeful antagonism from the Wizo's towards the OOP folks who post here? Threads get locked and a Wizo says, "Oh btw you aren't getting a conversion board either." I hope you can think about that and see how that bothers some of us. Furthermore, its getting old for Wizo's to come here and say, "This is your board. If you want it to stay around, then give us suggestions on how to make it better", but when we give suggestions they are ignored, shot down, or labeled "whining" and "griping." What's the good of offering suggestions if they don't get us anywhere? Now I know you tried to get the conversion board going, so I'm not holding you personally responsible, but I should think it would be obvious that people here are going to get sick of being asked for suggestions when our suggestions get ignored and/or shot down. 4. We didn't "threaten" to pull the plug on the forum. It was a friendly heads up that the sort of comments I saw on one of the forums was bad enough that if no action was taken, the whole forum might be closed down by the powers that be. Are there other techniques we could have used? Yes, but before we could go back to the thread to examine it and give warnings or whatnot, this discussion popped up. Believe what you want, but we're trying to SAVE the forum. We don't allow that sort of game designer bashing on any of the forums. And many of the current employees worked on the older editions as well. This "friendly heads up" as you call it came as a result of two threads, one that really wasn't very flame-infested in the first place. I remember a few months ago when the last OOP vs. 3e flames broke out and the idea for a conversion board came into being. Since that time, there have been virtually NO flames on this OOP board. I know because I have read nearly every thread since that time, and probably spend more time around this board than the mods do. For Catoblepas to come in as the result of two threads (one of which only had 3 total posts including the original topic) and give a "friendly heads up" that the OOP board might be going the way of the Dodo is knee-jerk reaction as far as I'm concerned. I would assume that the job of a moderator is to moderate, not eliminate. 5. It's not a lost cause. There was an idea I suggested before, but people didn't want to try it because they felt it would be yet another slight to OOP. Which it wouldn't be. I don't see much OOP conversations going. That's not the WizOs fault. If people don't want to talk OOP, we can't force them to. (I'm looking for threads started by Halaster in the OOP, and it must be my computer, because I don't see them. Sorry for using you as an example, but it's such a good one.) If you want the OOP forums to be the greatest place on the web, you guys have to make it so. It's not up to the WizOs to do it for you. You guys need to help us by reporting threads. If that doesn't work, try contacting one of the othe WizOs. If that doesn't work, then you let me know about it so I can find out if someone is slacking off, or deal with the situation myself. I'm not going to speak as to Halaster's postings (or lack thereof). I will say that I don't understand where this notion of "not much OOP conversations going on" comes from, because as I stated previously, I've read nearly every thread since the last flame fest a few months ago, and there have been no flames fests since then. Rather, there have been lots and lots of threads discussing OOP material in a civil and informative manner. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 63] Author : Kuje31 Date : 08-06-04 01:44 PM Originally posted by Halaster-Blackcloak I think I need to point something out. It's not a matter of ignoring trolls or "taking the higher ground" or any such lofty idealistic nonsense. The problem was not that we were insulted or attacked. The problem was that we were doing nothing more than minding our own business in our own little forgotten corner, and trolls came in and attacked us mercilessly, and when we defended ourselves, the supposedly impartial moderators sided with the attackers while we got punished for defending ourselves. This isn't a perfect world, so advice to "ignore the trolls" is a totally ignorant statement...ie it ignores the reality of the world, and that reality is that people react. Period. It's not so much about being attacked. It's about unfair biased treatment. I personally offered the WizOs a solution...create a Flame War board. I had no problem with duking it out 6-on-1 with the attacking trolls all by myself if need be. I don't need a WizO_Mommy to fight my battles and look out for me. But of course, that wasn't an option. So while the WizOs are charged with enforcing the CoC in a fair manner, that's what we expected from them. It was not what we got. [/B] As I said in the other thread... Actually, now that Halaster brought this up I'd like to say this STILL takes place even now, and not just on the OOP forums. I also remember the time the OOP boards were denied 3e talk because of the flaming going on, but I was mostly lurking then. However, as I said this type of stuff still happens NOW. People start trolling and when called on it the person who replied to the troll get's a warning or a PM/EMAIL saying please stop yelling at him, he reported you for flaming. Yet the troll continues to get away with it. This happened to me this week actually, there was a poster who started two trolling threads in the same day but it was the others, who answered him, that got a warning. So yes there is a lot of BIAS here with the Wizo's or maybe there isn't enough of them to mod these forums. I don't know..... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 64] Author : Tenzhi Date : 08-06-04 01:49 PM Originally posted by Halaster-Blackcloak Second, Tenzhi was not in the early wars. He's registered from March of 2002. Many of those fights started in 2000. Even the ones in 2002 he was not part of. Since he was not involved in them, he has no business commenting on who's right or wrong because he has no direct experience of it. For the most part I try to stay out of wars, though I have born witness to many. Incidentally, you registered in 2004, so does that mean you couldn't have been here in 2000? I used to log on from a newsreader (starting sometime late in '99 as I recall) because the web access was a lot slower. After they closed down the newsreader access (early in 2001 as I recall) it took awhile (almost exactly a year) before I re-registered to access via the web. So yeah, I saw plenty. And I saw even worse in regular newsgroups. There were screaming lunatics on -both- sides of the equation. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 65] Author : Halaster-Blackcloak Date : 08-06-04 01:49 PM Aliquid wrote: The Troll who starts the issue *is* to blame for the problem, but for someone to take the bait simply perpetuates the problem, and encourages the Troll to continue his immature behaviour. Again, you're not dealing with reality here. That sounds all well and good, and technically yes, you are correct. But the problem is that it simply does not work that way in reality. I may be able to ignore some troll's attacks, but perhaps the next guy who's having a bad day just has his patience run out and he reacts. Then the troll shoots back and the next thing you know, others react. It's an inevitable thing. SOMEONE will react at SOME time. So saying "ignore the troll" is unrealistic and does not work, because of the "weakest link" concept. It would work if EVERY SINGLE MEMBER was able to ignore the troll EVERY SINGLE TIME, and that's simply not reality. Even assuming a perfect world where your concept works... If the troll posts 12 messages of attacks trying to get someone to react, and several people report the post, the WizO is obligated to moderate the troll. Otherwise, they should just fire the WizOs...what do we need them for? Just because no one is reacting to the troll at this moment does not make it acceptable for him to be trolling in the first place. I am simply saying that if you are part of a flame war, you have the power to stop it... by simply not responding Again, in a perfect world with perfect adherence to that idea, yes, you're right. In the real world, you're dead wrong because we will never have close to 100% adherence to the idea of not responding to trolls. That goes back to my original concept. You are perpetuating a problem. His comment may have been a bit condescending, but for you to come back on the aggressive... that's just perpetuating the problem. I don't concern myself with that. I'm a nice guy until someone gives me reason not to be. Don't give me reason not to be and we'll get along just fine. Not to mention that it is very easy to misunderstand the attitude behind what people type. Not when words like "selfish", "asinine" and so on are used. The meaning is pretty obvious. As such, it is actually possible that Tenzhi was simply being silly, trying to lighten the mood, and wasn't intending on being condescending at all. That's why God invented emoticons and smilies, and why we have there there to use. Ignore them at your own peril. ;) Now I am not saying that this is definitely the case, but it is a possibility, and for you to respond with an aggressive response, you now have put him on the defensive, and you have started an argument. There you go with the whole "blame the victim" routines. Did I open a salvo of posts calling Tenzhi selfish, condescending, asinine? No. He ambushed me with that out of nowhere. THAT is where the "argument" (if you can even call it that) started. It always amazes me, how people have such unlimited capacity to obfuscate things. There have been times where people have responded to me with comments I found insulting. I have responded with something like "hey, that was uncalled for". The majority of the time, they apologise, and say "sorry, that's not what I intended to say". If he had said something once, that might be the case. He posted it several times. It's a consistent attempt to provoke a fight. Frankly, I suspect that certain higher ups on this forum are trying to provoke me into saying stuff that they can then use to ban me. It's been tried before. If you automatically assume someone is trying to argue with you... then you will create a self-fulfilling prophecy. I don't automatically assume someone is trying to argue with me, but when someone calls me asinine and selfish and condescending and aggrandizing, I think that gives me enough to work with to form a reasonably accurate opinion on their intent, don't you? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 66] Author : diaglo Date : 08-06-04 02:08 PM Originally posted by Tenzhi There were screaming lunatics on -both- sides of the equation. we weren't lunatics. and there was no volume on... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 67] Author : Halaster-Blackcloak Date : 08-06-04 02:10 PM Sith wrote: I'm not asking, I'm telling. :rolleyes: You're telling us what exactly? That someone is doing something that is ******* you off but that WizOs Cato and Paradox don't seem to have a problem with? If you cannot (or will not) live up to you agreement, YOU WILL BE REMOVED FROM THESE FORUMS. Who will be removed? What rules are being broken? See, this is what I mean about poor moderating skills in these parts. How the hell is anyone supposed to know if you have a problem with a particular poster or something that is being said if you don't spell it out specifcially? Remember, the CoC can be intepreted differently by different moderators. Perhaps Cato would be more concerned by something she (he?) read that you would not bother with. There's another problem. No two moderators agree or use the same criteria to judge posts. Are you saying that someone is breaking the code of conduct in this thread? If so, why not come out and say so? Why the bluster and the threats and so on instead of actually pointing out what you perceive as a problem? Or is that asking too much? If it takes a letter from WotC's Legal Department to your Internet Provider to do it, I will see it done. Talk about hypersensitive over-reactions! Who here in this thread has posted something that your legal department would waste time drafting a letter about? Did I miss a post where someone threatened someone else or promoted hate speech or incited violence or posted kiddie porn or something? I sincerely hope your extravagant, threatening over reaction was not due to the fact that Tenzhi called my post "asinine". Good lord! Should I go paste a few laughing emoticons on the sentence where I said "Look, WizO alert, I've been insulted"? Because in case you didn't get it, I was being sarcastic. :rolleyes: WizO Cato reopened this thread and said we can discuss it, Paradox is engaging in discussion with us, and I've decided to ignore Tenzhi since I don't see us seeing eye to eye no matter what is said, so where exactly is this terrible problem that's got you so bent out of shape? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 68] Author : Tenzhi Date : 08-06-04 02:31 PM I certainly wouldn't call you in particular a screaming lunatic, diaglo (nor probably even H-B, for that matter). In my experience you're level-headed, reasonable (mostly ;) ), and a veritable treasure trove of OOP information. However, there were screaming lunatics (an expression, mind you) on each side of the equation. @Aliquid: H-B is quite right, I was being obstinately harsh. I perceived an attitude (and the attitude was truly there, as said person admitted to being both condescending and "snitty"), and right or wrong I reflected it back on the perceived originator of said attitude. That almost never works out for the best and I generally manage to avoid it these days (back in the newsreader days I was a lot more of a knee-jerk reactionary), but occasionally someone will manage to push my buttons when the conditions are right... I'd offer apologies, but I doubt they'd be accepted for the most part. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 69] Author : Halaster-Blackcloak Date : 08-06-04 02:34 PM Tenzhi wrote: I certainly wouldn't call you in particular a screaming lunatic, diaglo (nor probably even H-B, for that matter). No, it's true. I'm a screaming lunatic most of the time. ;) :) I'd offer apologies, but I doubt they'd be accepted for the most part. No harm done. Sorry if I jumped down your throat as well. Apology accepted. Maybe we both want the same thing...for the OOP forum here to not be a broken wasteland of flames. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 70] Author : Gandalf_Istari Date : 08-06-04 02:34 PM WotC customer service number: (800) 324-6496 As I stated I would do last night, I called WotC today about the mods here implying that posters on the OOP board weren't really paying customers that WotC makes money from. The CSR I spoke with was polite and spent the time while on the phone with me to look the thread over. He stated that he could see how it came across that the mods were implying that OOP posters weren't really paying customers of WotC, and that he would forward the content of these posts on to the powers that be so that this could be looked into. If anyone else who posts on the OOP board does not like the mods here implying that they aren't really paying customers, I'd encourage them to call the 800 number listed above and file a complaint. Please be polite and respectful, as I was treated very well by the customer service representative and would like to see this complaint get heard rather than ignored because people might want to call and rant instead of offer a constructive complaint. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 71] Author : Strephon Alkhalikoi Date : 08-06-04 02:45 PM Thread Title : Open message redux. Originally posted by WizO_Catoblepas Let's keep the discussion civil. Thanks. Perhaps if you did your job effectively I would, but quite honestly I'm rather fed up with civility in regards to this place. So tell me, did the truth that you edited out hurt and is that why you edited it? Look, you Wizos have very few choices in this matter. Either keep the forum to the purpose for which it is intended, or close the damn thing down. Talk is cheap. Actions are what I look for. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 72] Author : Strephon Alkhalikoi Date : 08-06-04 02:55 PM Thread Title : Re: Re: An open message for the Wizos Originally posted by Tenzhi This forum serves the same purpose whether 3E gets mentioned from time to time or not. The purpose of the forum is not to segregate D&D players from each other, but rather to offer a place where the main topic of discussion is OOP material. Just because that is the main topic of discussion does not mean other material won't get mentioned from time to time - in the MM board Savage Species occasionally gets brought up; in every board under the sun the Best-Left-Forgotten Realms seems to receive honourable mention. Like it or not, it's all related. If complete segregation is what you're looking for, look somewhere else. In the meantime, other people do get a use out of this forum. No, you're right in that the purpose of this forum isn't to segregate players. Hasbro has done that all by itself. I have a forum or two that I visit on a regular basis that does far better than this forum in dealing with Dungeons & Dragons. Those forums don't deal with d20 Fantasy, which suits me just fine. After all, they aren't under corporate control, like this board. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 73] Author : Halaster-Blackcloak Date : 08-06-04 02:57 PM I just called customer service as well and they asked me to forward to them the various correspondences I've had in the past with various WizOs about trolls who repeatedly posted inflammatory remarks but were allowed to stay. I guess I also need to point them to my "Blast from the past" thread. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 74] Author : GreyLord Date : 08-06-04 03:17 PM No I haven't read the entire thread. I was a bit upset about the starter suggesting closing the OoP forums. You know, the idea of killing the out of print boards is stupid. If you don't like them, don't come here. Goes for WizO's as well. Killing these boards is rather absurd, especially if one imagines that the only ones who read these or take note of them or think they are important are those that are not 3e or 3.5 DM's or Players. For the record, I have 3.0 and 3.5 (though I prefer older editions, players choose other editions and I like DMing...) and I think me and others like me would take offense at these boards being deleted. For those who say it's just more hassle then its worth or even suggested that, and are not WizO's, there's nothing saying you have to come to these boards. Just my thoughts on the OoP boards. Though I frequent other boards, the main reason I come to the Wizards site still is because of the OoP boards. I used to come because of nice material for 3e and 3.5 on the main page, but recently the material hasn't caught my interest...and seems a bit more stagnant than it used to be (as far as what catches my interest). -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 75] Author : Halaster-Blackcloak Date : 08-06-04 03:20 PM Greylord wrote: For those who say it's just more hassle then its worth or even suggested that, and are not WizO's, there's nothing saying you have to come to these boards. People who say this are missing the point, but I don't feel like pointing it out a hundred times. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 76] Author : Aliquid Date : 08-06-04 04:15 PM Originally posted by Halaster Blackcloak So saying "ignore the troll" is unrealistic and does not work, because of the "weakest link" concept. It would work if EVERY SINGLE MEMBER was able to ignore the troll EVERY SINGLE TIME, and that's simply not reality. True enough, but I get the impression that there are some people who respond to the trolls every single time… and when it turns into a flame war, they participate every single time. If those individuals would stop doing this, it would noticeably reduce the trolling problem on the OOP boards. I respect that there are other problems you have with the boards beyond simply the trolling, and I know that ignoring the trolls isn’t a cut and dry solution, but it is an option that would noticably reduce the problem. Not when words like "selfish", "asinine" and so on are used. The meaning is pretty obvious. Well I was referring to the specific post that you responded to from Tenzhi. Not all of his posts in general. I suppose I should have used a generic example instead of talking about someone you clearly have a history of conflict with. Although now I notice that the two of you have come to some sort of a truce. There you go with the whole "blame the victim" routines. Did I open a salvo of posts calling Tenzhi selfish, condescending, asinine? No. He ambushed me with that out of nowhere. THAT is where the "argument" (if you can even call it that) started. It always amazes me, how people have such unlimited capacity to obfuscate things. Well there are situations where a victim makes his situation worse by acting certain ways. I wouldn’t blame him for creating the situation. I don't automatically assume someone is trying to argue with me, but when someone calls me asinine and selfish and condescending and aggrandizing, I think that gives me enough to work with to form a reasonably accurate opinion on their intent, don't you? You have suggested that my philosophy is “lofty idealistic nonsense” you have also said my advice to "ignore the trolls" is a “totally ignorant statement”. Furthermore you have implied that I am “not dealing with reality” Not exactly flattering comments, and some people could take offence to them. Many people in my place would believe that your intent was to insult me and belittle my intelligence and/or grasp of reality. I on the other hand prefer not to take it personally. Fist off I don’t think you intended on it being personal. Secondly, even if you did, why should I let the opinion of someone I don’t even know upset me? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 77] Author : skathros Date : 08-06-04 04:41 PM double post...sorry! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 78] Author : skathros Date : 08-06-04 04:41 PM Well...interesting what happens in a day! First, my poor little thread gets locked...why? Because of the "threat" of degenerating into a flame war. If you apply that logic across the board, there would be no threads. If the perception was true, then they would have never started this OoP board. After all, what profit does WotC make off of keeping an OoP board. Well, maybe not much in terms of $$$, but they can cash in on the legacy behind the game (see the "Cashing in on 30 years" thread...you know, the one that was locked just in case... ). Technically, if a person is truly an OoPer soley, then they aren't buying WotC products. But they might buy NG product or TLG stuff. Fans of OoP D&D are gamers, and if WotC puts out stuff that's compatible with the older editions, i think many would buy. This is a sad sad day. Threads getting closed because somebody asks for help? Threads getting closed because they might lead to a flame war? A moderator saying "It's all about sales...?" And talk of shutting down one of the last OoP links WotC has anything to do with. Actually, it's been a sad 4 years. Yet i keep coming back:confused: Why? Well, because for whatever reason, and dispite editions, the D&D name/brand is still special to me. I might not like where the game when in it's latest incarnation, but i have a history with the game that spans far longer than WotC's aquisition of it. I stayed with the game through B/X, 1E, 2E, and 2.5, and how does WotC repay me...? With Hackmaster! (thanks for turning my game into a joke). We're hearing the threats issued through their mouthpieces, ie the WizOs. You heard it straight from the horse's mouth...they may close the OOP forum regardless, and if we keep "whining" and "griping" (love the condescending language), then they'll use that as their excuse. I knew this would come eventually. Good riddence then! I do take offence at having the blame put on the OOP fans, though!. If/when it does close down, it wont be us closing it down!So now it's time for Sith to get involved. I'm not asking, I'm telling.==>THESE<== are the rules. You agreed, and signed a legally binding contract in good faith, to abide by them before you were ever granted a screen name on these forums. If you cannot (or will not) live up to you agreement, YOU WILL BE REMOVED FROM THESE FORUMS. If it takes a letter from WotC's Legal Department to your Internet Provider to do it, I will see it done.BEHAVE :confused: Now just what are you getting all uppity about? Nice threat though...well delivered. Too bad it was uncalled for. So, what have we lerned from this 3 page thread? 1)The great OoP purge continues. WotC, wishing to dissacociate it'self with the games past will (eventually) remove these forums, probably blaming it on "those unruly Out of Printers". 2) The more Sith means buisness, the bigger his font gets. 3) Threats of possible flaming will result in locking threads (but only in the OoP section). 4) We're not welcome here, simply tolerated. Well...interesting indeed! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 79] Author : Gandalf_Istari Date : 08-06-04 04:47 PM OK folks, one thing we need to get straight here is that there hasn't been any flame wars on this board for awhile now, probably several months, which should be a credit to both the regular posters here and to the mods (Paradox mostly IMO). So lets stop assuming that this is happening on a daily or regular basis because its not. I know because I have read nearly every thread on this board since the last flame fest a few months ago, as I frequent this board several times a day (even if I don't actually post on every thread). If this board can go months without flame fests, than people shouldn't be acting like thats all this board ever amounts to. I'm sure other boards here have their share of flames from time to time, but occasional flare ups does not a fire make. For me, the problem here is not that there are constant flame fests on this board (at least in the last few months anyways), its the knee-jerk reaction by mods that locks threads when they weren't really flame wars to begin with, and the implication by mods that people who post here on the OOP forum should feel priviledged that there's even an OOP forum in the first place since WotC doesn't make money off of people who play older editions. Simply because people on the OOP forum might have criticisms about WotC, the latest edition of the game, and/or the direction the game seems to be headed, that does not mean we should automatically be labeled as non-paying customers who are just here to "gripe." Many of us on the OOP board have spent our hard earned cash on 3rd edition products, even if we have chosen to return to our earlier D&D roots, and thus should not be considered as some kind of parasite because we frequent the OOP board. Many of us on the OOP board offer helpful and useful advice to people who post questions about OOP products, and do not regularly engage in flame fests. That is why the OOP board has been relatively calm these last few months, because people have been carrying on civil discussions about OOP stuff rather than flaming. There's no reason for people to suggest the board be shut down, either from mods or posters. If it does get shut down over one thread, after months of general peace here on the OOP board, that would be rather ludicrous. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 80] Author : vader42xx Date : 08-06-04 05:41 PM I, like others above, would like to know just what WizO_Sith is warning us against? Who has done what so we can know just what the problem is? Thanks. :) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 81] Author : Gandalf_Istari Date : 08-06-04 06:31 PM Originally posted by WizO_Sith ==>THESE<== (www.wizards.com/coc) are the rules. You agreed, and signed a legally binding contract in good faith, to abide by them before you were ever granted a screen name on these forums. If you cannot (or will not) live up to you agreement, YOU WILL BE REMOVED FROM THESE FORUMS. If it takes a letter from WotC's Legal Department to your Internet Provider to do it, I will see it done. So now on top of Mods here implying that WotC makes no money from OOP forum posters and that they aren't really paying customers of WotC (and thereby just some kind of parasite that hangs around here to cause trouble for WotC), we have a mod come on and threaten legal action because WotC PAYING CUSTOMERS don't like how they are being treated by WotC employees ? :confused: Talk about throwing gas on the fire. :looloo: -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 82] Author : Plunderer_of_the_planes Date : 08-06-04 06:37 PM Personally I want the OOP to stay. I don't like motality and I recently walked away from dragonsfoot due to the fact 3e and it's players were getting the same treatment as OOPers are supoosedly getting here. I have played for 14 years I have grown to love Basic all the way to 3e for differing reasons. Each has their strength, each has their weakness. I really do try anymore to avoid flamewars and to avoid Edition fighting since I feel all eds of D&D deserve fair treatement. I do have to say this...(dons +3 Flameproof suit) I feel the mods have done a good job with this forum. Further more I have seen the flames start with the Grognards just as much as I have seen them with the 3e crowd....Listen close: No one posting here is innocent of CoC violations!! Not me nor you. But we all want to think we are and see ourselves as a victim of evil WOTC predjudice. Thats not so. WOTC could have not put OOP stuff up and could have had all the OOP MSB's over the net closed....They didn't. When I go to someones house I treat them and their Guests very well out of respect to that house's owner. No matter how I feel about their opinions. We are all in WOTC's house if we want to continue to play in thier house...no matter how small a room we have to play in...we have to play nice. That's my 2 pennies -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 83] Author : vader42xx Date : 08-06-04 07:41 PM I don't really agree on the job that the mods have done (though it's not as if everything they do is wrong either) and I do think WotC wants to stamp out the old editions. If I'm wrong it won't be the first time. However, right or wrong, Pludy makes a very good point... "We are all in WOTC's house if we want to continue to play in thier house...no matter how small a room we have to play in...we have to play nice." True enough sir and that's why I try to be kind as best I can. I fail from time to time (as we all do) but I play as nice as I'm able, even when I don't agree. :) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 84] Author : WizO_Sith Date : 08-06-04 07:51 PM This thread has been warned twice. On both occasions, those warnings have been ignored. *Click* -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Downloaded from Wizards Community (http://forums.gleemax.com) at 05-10-08 08:19 AM.