* * * Wizards Community Thread * * * -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Thread : 1E Percentile Strength - who was originally entitled? Started at 08-16-04 05:56 PM by ieya Visit at http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=293908 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 1] Author : ieya Date : 08-16-04 05:56 PM Thread Title : 1E Percentile Strength - who was originally entitled? I know, you're going to read the question, and you're going to think, "duh - fighters, paladins, and rangers". Now, working purely from the 1E PHB, can anyone find anything to back this up? Got asked this recently, and once you actually look into it ... The page discussing the attribute strength notes: http://jink.org/str.jpg No mention of the fighter subclasses there. Similarly, under the description of the fighter class, there's this paragraph: http://jink.org/fighters.jpg And while it explicitly (and erroneously!) notes that the subclasses of paladin and ranger equal the fighter for d10-sized hit dice, it also specifically mentions fighters as being the strongest 'in regards to sheer physical strength' - ie, the STR stat. Quite an interesting thing to think about - and wouldn't the vanilla fighter be a much more attractive class than it was, were it the only one to get percentile strength? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 2] Author : Lina_Inverse Date : 08-16-04 06:20 PM you mean,wouldnt paladins be worthless.unless 1E paladins where much stronger than 2E ive always considered the basic fighter to be stronger than the subclasses. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 3] Author : ieya Date : 08-16-04 06:44 PM Remember that this dates back before things like weapon specialisation; paladins fought just as well as fighters of their level. Plus they got to detect evil whenever they wanted, make all saves at +2, immune to disease, lay on hands once per day for 2 * level in hp, once up a few levels cure disease, continually emanate a protection from evil in a 1" (ten feet) radius, turn undead, call warhorse, gain a circle of power doing a dispel magic effect when using a holy avenger, and of course at high levels, cast cleric spells too. In what way is the fighter stronger? :) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 4] Author : blackprinceofmuncie Date : 08-16-04 10:20 PM Thread Title : Re: 1E Percentile Strength - who was originally entitled? Originally posted by ieya I know, you're going to read the question, and you're going to think, "duh - fighters, paladins, and rangers". Nope. As far as I can recall, I've never seen percentile strength extended to the fighter subclasses. If the subclasses were intended to be included, I believe the text would say as much. The notes on the Constitution table specifically include the subclasses.... Note also that the only class of characters which is entitled to bonuses above +2 per hit die is fighters (including the fighter subclasses paladins and rangers). IMO, if percentile Strength were intended to be used for Rangers and Paladins, the text would say so specifically. Also, I have never seen a pregenerated character or NPC Ranger or Paladin with percentile strength in a published module (I'm not saying there aren't any, but if there are I haven't seen them). -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 5] Author : ScottyG Date : 08-16-04 10:30 PM I could whip out a bunch of examples of fighter sub-classes with % Str from early AD&D modules if anybody needs convincing that it was meant to apply to fighter sub-classes as well. Scott -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 6] Author : ScottyG Date : 08-16-04 10:37 PM Also, check out the listings for rangers and paladins in the Rogues Gallery, and you'll see that % Str was not just for the fighter. Scott -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 7] Author : WizO_Catoblepas Date : 08-16-04 11:04 PM In my recollection, I remember Paladins and Rangers having percentile strength as well. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 8] Author : Gandalf_Istari Date : 08-16-04 11:32 PM Thread Title : Re: Re: 1E Percentile Strength - who was originally entitled? Originally posted by blackprinceofmuncie Also, I have never seen a pregenerated character or NPC Ranger or Paladin with percentile strength in a published module (I'm not saying there aren't any, but if there are I haven't seen them). Beek Gwenders, 1/2Elf Ranger from Decent into the Depths of the Earth, has an 18 (02) STR. Just offering up an example. :D -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 9] Author : blackprinceofmuncie Date : 08-17-04 01:09 AM Thread Title : Re: Re: Re: 1E Percentile Strength - who was originally entitled? Originally posted by Gandalf_Istari Beek Gwenders, 1/2Elf Ranger from Decent into the Depths of the Earth, has an 18 (02) STR. Just offering up an example. :D Mmmmm....I don't have any pregenerated characters in my copy of Descent. Am I missing pages? What page is that character located on? I'm not doubting you, I'm just afraid I've lost track of that page in my copy of D1. :( -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 10] Author : ScottyG Date : 08-17-04 01:17 AM And don't forget Elmo and Otis, the rangers from Village of Hommlet/Temple of Elemental Evil, both had exceptional Str, and so did a ranger pre-gen from Tomb of Horrors. Scott -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 11] Author : blackprinceofmuncie Date : 08-17-04 01:29 AM Originally posted by ScottyG Also, check out the listings for rangers and paladins in the Rogues Gallery, and you'll see that % Str was not just for the fighter. Scott I would, if I had a copy. Care to lend me yours Scott? :D Just kidding! As I said, that was always my interpretation from the evidence I had at my fingers. It doesn't surprise me that my rule-fu has failed me yet again. This does raise another question for me though. Paladins became a subclass of Cavalier in UA. It specifically says that Cavaliers/Paladins benefit from percentile strength as do Fighters. It specifically excludes Cavaliers from the benefits of weapon specialization. It doesn't, however, address whether Cavaliers benefit from the Fighter (and fighter subclass) access to Con HP bonuses higher than +2. The Paladin description specifically states that the Paladin retains all benefits granted in the PHB, so it's arguable that they retain their access to higher Con bonuses. Do Cavaliers gain access to the higher Con bonuses to HP, or are they limited to +2? Do Paladins follow the Cavalier rule, or retain the benefits they received as a subclass of Fighter? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 12] Author : blackprinceofmuncie Date : 08-17-04 01:36 AM Originally posted by ScottyG and so did a ranger pre-gen from Tomb of Horrors. Scott Holy Grazz't! You know, I never understood that "7R" in that chart in Tomb of Horrors meant 7th level Ranger until just now! Stupid me! Stupid! Stupid! :banghead: I always wondered why Tomb of Horrors only included the 4 "main" classes as pregens. :blush: -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 13] Author : Gandalf_Istari Date : 08-17-04 01:45 AM Thread Title : Re: Re: Re: Re: 1E Percentile Strength - who was originally entitled? Originally posted by blackprinceofmuncie Mmmmm....I don't have any pregenerated characters in my copy of Descent. Am I missing pages? What page is that character located on? I'm not doubting you, I'm just afraid I've lost track of that page in my copy of D1. :( Its on page 22 of D1-2. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 14] Author : Gandalf_Istari Date : 08-17-04 01:55 AM Originally posted by blackprinceofmuncie Paladins became a subclass of Cavalier in UA. It specifically says that Cavaliers/Paladins benefit from percentile strength as do Fighters. It specifically excludes Cavaliers from the benefits of weapon specialization. It doesn't, however, address whether Cavaliers benefit from the Fighter (and fighter subclass) access to Con HP bonuses higher than +2. The Paladin description specifically states that the Paladin retains all benefits granted in the PHB, so it's arguable that they retain their access to higher Con bonuses. Do Cavaliers gain access to the higher Con bonuses to HP, or are they limited to +2? Do Paladins follow the Cavalier rule, or retain the benefits they received as a subclass of Fighter? First off, including Unearthed Arcana as part of the core rules for 1e is tenuous at best. I think at most UA is considered by most to be an optional book, even by those who use it. That's just been the general trend of thought I've seen on the topic of UA amongst 1e players. As far as the cavalier getting the higher Con bonus, my judgment would be that they do. Even if UA had said that they were limited to only +2, I still overruled that with a house rule, simply because I view cavaliers as just as martial a class as fighters. Paladins in my view should never have been made into a subclass of cavalier in the first place. I just think they are too different. Sure, they are both knight-like fighters, but the focus for cavaliers if primarily on being a fighter, serving a lord, skill with horses, etc.. Paladins also have a focus on fighting ability, but that is coupled with the cleric aspects of the class, the need to remain holy and obedient, poverty, the paladin's special abilities, etc. Cavaliers boil down to a fighter kit IMO, while paladin's are really a hybrid of fighters and clerics. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 15] Author : blackprinceofmuncie Date : 08-17-04 02:33 AM Thread Title : Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 1E Percentile Strength - who was originally entitled? Originally posted by Gandalf_Istari Its on page 22 of D1-2. OK. Don't have D1-2, just D1. They must have included the pregen characters in the combo module. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 16] Author : Algolei Date : 08-17-04 10:33 PM Thread Title : Re: Re: Re: 1E Percentile Strength - who was originally entitled? Originally posted by Gandalf_Istari Beek Gwenders, 1/2Elf Ranger from Decent into the Depths of the Earth, has an 18 (02) STR. Just offering up an example. :D Whatwhatwhat?! Beek Gwenders? Of Croodle? I don't have D1-2 either, but...wait...yes I do. Where the heck did I put...? Bah! Anyway: I've got G1-3 in my hands right now, and the version of Beek Gwenders (of Croodle) they list here (Ranger 9) only has a 15 Strength. :confused: Where did he get his 18/02 for Descent? How many wishes would that take? 22 or 32? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 17] Author : Algolei Date : 08-17-04 10:50 PM Yup, here it is, D1-2. They've totally changed the pregen characters, dropping all of the originals except for Beek Gwenders and Fonkin Hoddypeak. They raised Beek's Strength from 15 to 18/02, and replaced his elven cloak and boots with a scarab vs. poison +2. He's still a Ranger 9 though. And Fonkin's stats have been altered a little bit more: His Strength went from 15 to 17 and his Con went from 16 to 14 (but his hp stayed the same). His level also stayed the same (5/8 elven F/MU). But the others have apparently vanished. :( Cloyer Bulse; Roaky Swerked; Frush O'Suggill; Flerd Trantle; Redmod Dumple; and Faffle Dwe'o-mercraeft--where have ye gone? In their places are such "lesser" names as Fnast Dringle; Keak Breedbate; Darg Blonke; Ycore Rixle; Shab Heanling;* Fage the Kexy; and Philotomy Jurament. What happened? :( :confused: :sad: *I went to school with a Shab Heanling; he was a nice guy, but a Thief 12? Nooooo! Shab! How little I knew thee! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 18] Author : Kheldren Date : 08-18-04 03:29 AM A slight diversion from this one. Suppose a wizard has access to Wish and nothing better to do so raises his strength on a daily basis. Day 0 - 18 str Day 1 - 18 10 str - does he get the percentile strength bonus? - I would think so Day 2 - 18 20 str ... Day 9 - 18 90 str Day 10 - ??? - is he on 19 (which is what you get for gaining 10% per wish) or 18 00? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 19] Author : Thailfi Date : 08-18-04 08:25 AM You didn't mention Gleepwerp the Eyebiter. Where did he go? We have always applied exceptional strength to rangers and paladins. Unless they are expressly forbidden from an ability, all subclasses should have all the abilities of the base class. I know there are more examples of pregen NPCs having exceptional strength, but I would have to go through my DMs stock of old modules to find them. I would be shocked if Gary Gaygax and others did not intend for rangers, paladins, cavaliers, barbarians, and archers to have exceptional strength. The cavalier might be specifically mentioned as having exceptional stats because they always have a percentile score next to their strength, constitution, and dexterity scores. They roll 2d10 every level and add it to their percentile score. When they go over 100 their score goes up. Thus a 1st level paladin with a 15(93) dexterity goes up to 2nd level rolls a 7 and a 5 on his 2d10 and he now has a 16(05) dexterity. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 20] Author : diaglo Date : 08-18-04 10:03 AM i'm sure this all stems from the conversion of the OD&D booklets to the Advanced game. it was assumed that people would know fighting men.... now fighters included rangers and paladins. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 21] Author : rogueattorney Date : 08-18-04 04:03 PM Originally posted by diaglo i'm sure this all stems from the conversion of the OD&D booklets to the Advanced game. it was assumed that people would know fighting men.... now fighters included rangers and paladins. I was about to write the same thing. The paladin didn't really have his own write up in the Greyhawk Supp. It was more like, "Lawful fighters with 17 cha. can choose to be paladins, and get the following special abilities..." The implication being that paladins were fighters. The more I learn about OD&D, the more I realize that AD&D was written for those who were already familiar with OD&D. R.A. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Downloaded from Wizards Community (http://forums.gleemax.com) at 05-10-08 08:19 AM.