* * * Wizards Community Thread * * * -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Thread : 2nd Ed AD&D: Rule check and how to fix a bad situation. Started at 08-18-04 12:06 AM by ElNoNombreHombre Visit at http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=294671 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 1] Author : ElNoNombreHombre Date : 08-18-04 12:06 AM Thread Title : 2nd Ed AD&D: Rule check and how to fix a bad situation. Okey-dokey. First post. Let's see how it goes. Yes, I'm aware this might be more aplicable in the "What's a player to do?" board, but this post is a little more rule-centric than "how do I discuss this with the DM"-centric. So I'm hoping that this board is better suited to handle the question I'm about to present if I would stop writing this stupid, everlasting introductory paragraph that keeps going on... and on... and on... *ahem* Anyway, here's the situation: My 2nd ed AD&D group is camping out in some alegedly "haunted woods" after escaping numerous hobgoblins, kobolds, goblins, etc. Well, as is wont to happen durring our rest, we get an random encounter. A [something-I-can't-remember] shows up durring the night (the fact that I can't remember what it was won't be important, as you will see). Well, we're all ready for combat when the [something-I-can't-remember] transforms into an elf and says, "Don't attack me." Next thing you know it runs up and gets a stranglehold on the mage's neck. She's still concious at this point. I'm next up (I'm a fighter, 3rd level with specilization with a longsword). I declare that I will make a called shot against the [something-I-can't-remember]'s neck. One -4 (called shot) penalty and attack roll later, I declare I hit an AC 5. DM declares that to be a miss. Our level 3 theif goes, misses as does our level 3 (I believe) cleric. Second round, the mage fails to break free and is choked down to -9 HP (we're playing with what appears to be 3rd ed bleeding rules). We attack and damage the thing, but not enough to kill it. Third round, the mage wins initiative (a *bad* thing), and fails to stablize. She dies, and with that, much mourning. Next up is me and one swing later, the [something-I-can't-remember] is dead. This is where our session ended. The DM gives the dead mage's player her options. We talk, we go home. It wasn't until a couple days afterword that it hit me: the [something-I-can't-remember] changed into an elf! This changes everything! Now, here's what that means: if the [something-I-can't-remember], which was a monster that didn't use equipment changed into an elf then the following should have happened: (This is the part I need you people to check) The [something-I-can't-remember]: 1) Lost natural armor to AC (gaining none in the elf form) 2) Had it's STR, DEX and CON change to 10, 11 and 9 respectively (average for the species) 3) Is not wearing armor (would have melded or otherwise been unusable) Therefore, the [something-I-can't-remember] had and AC of 10 and thus my called shot against the neck of the thing was actually a hit! As should have multiple other rolls durring the fight. In short, because of this oversight the whole fight got FUBAR'ed. I brought this to the attention of the DM. He said he'd have to check on it with the player of the cleric with a rulebook. OK, now here's what I need from you who have followed me this far: 1) I need my assumptions checked for accuracy. I've looked in my newly acuired PHB but the wording of Polymorph Self isn't helping--the wording that seems to help my arguement lies in Polymorph Other. 2) If my assumptions are correct, how should I pursue this. I don't want to come off as too much of a rules lawyer or a nag or something else equally heinous, but there was a big flub-up done. Thank you for reading this. I hope I didn't lose too many of you. And thanks in advance for any help. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 2] Author : vader42xx Date : 08-18-04 03:25 AM Well, first off are you sure it used a polymorph spell at all? The thing about 2e is that a shape change is not always a shape change. Meaning many rules or abilities in 2e have the same look or outcome but the restrictions are different. So it actually is important to remember what this critter was if you can find out. ;) Besides that did you let the "elf" just stand there for a few moments or did it change and then rush you right away? If it did the second then it got more actions in one round than it should have to begin with. But that might just be you saving time while you typed so not sure about that one. As for the polymorph spell you're right on the nose pretty much. The ability scores should change as well as the armor class. The hit points, saves, and attack rolls should stay the same (whether the new strength modifies that is up to your DM really). So the battle didn't go as it should have for sure. As to what you should do about it I'd just let the DM know your views (and that you've had some help in making sure your view isn't totally off the wall) on the subject and ask him if there is anything that can be done. Don't ask for anything specific, don't tell him you know you're right and he's wrong...just explain the situation and ask if he can do anything about it. I personally would just remove the entire battle from the session (along with the xp) and start you sleeping in the woods again, but that's me. If, however, your DM decided to leave things as they stand there isn't much you can do about it except find a new DM and that may not be worth it. :) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 3] Author : Kheldren Date : 08-18-04 03:26 AM I'm afraid that I think your assumptions are a bit off. IF it really changed into an elf (rather than just appearing to) then less, it loses armour bonuses, but not necessarily natural armour equivalents (you don't know what spells it was under for one thing). As for its statitics, no way do they change to racial average for an elf - no player would ever use polymorph again. As a DM the closest I would rule is that it gains the elf's stat modifiers instead of it's own - it's Dexterity AC adjustment might just have gone up... Anyway, this one might be worth checking with the DM, but I strongly suspect that you missed by quite a margin. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 4] Author : Algolei Date : 08-18-04 04:32 AM Well, it could depend on what the [something-you-can't-remember] actually was. If it was an elf who simply turned back into an elf, then the elf could very well have an AC lower than 5. On the other hand, if it wasn't really an elf, the elf-shape could have simply been an image--the creature could still have had its original AC "underneath" the image of the elf. If however it was some other creature that actually did polymorph into an elf, then yes, going strictly by the rules, I believe the elf-form should have had average stats for an elf of that type. But that doesn't mean the creature wasn't wearing, for instance, bracers of AC X (except you would've found them on its body afterwards). -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 5] Author : Nifftin Date : 08-18-04 07:04 PM Hmm... sounds like a doppelganger. Doesn't sound like the strategy of a doppelganger, but it's the best i can think of. It doesn't say anything (unless my eyes jumped over it) that it's natural AC is changed when it changes form. And if you add the elven dex bonus... along with any other dex he has, it could be quite low. The best advice is to ask the DM for clarification. But not push it, it might be something bigger than that. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 6] Author : Algolei Date : 08-19-04 02:36 AM Nifftin has a point. Sometimes even a DM can make a mistake, but it's usually best to just accept what happens and move on. Erasing a combat to bring a PC back from the dead has its appeal, but on the other hand, letting the dice fall where they may keeps alive the feeling of disbelief (ie. it lets you keep pretending in the adventure rather than studying through the rules and missing the storyline). I've tried both ways. I recommend not going back and changing things; accept the tragedy and play on. It makes for a more believable game. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 7] Author : vader42xx Date : 08-19-04 04:14 AM While I agree with Algolei in theory this is just a tad too big to not at least ask. If a player loses a few hit points, casts a spell he didn't need to, or perhaps even loses a bit of gold or a magic item or two I might be inclined to just talk with the DM to see if anything went wrong for his future knowledge and then just let the game go on without "fixing" anything. But when a character death comes about due to a DM mistake (IF it was a mistake) then that's the kind of thing that does need some correction tape. ;) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 8] Author : ElNoNombreHombre Date : 08-19-04 09:12 PM Thread Title : Thank you all Thanks very much for all the replies. We're playing again this Sunday, so I'm thinking about waiting until then to figure this out as it seems my attempt to try to resolve this before then has irritated the DM. One other small question: What's reasonable for a third (going on fourth, stands a good chance of leveling up next session) level fighter to have for equipment, assuming a normal-magic, normal-powered campaign in 2nd ed? Here's what I have: Used: Long sword Splint mail Meduim sheild Helmet Dagger Unused: Handle of a broken bastard sword Money: 78 gp, 1sp (which used to have "I-can't-believe-it's-not-magic" powers: bonus damage + bonus damage vs mountain creatures) which was broken durring our first climatic fight (it was my third broken weapon in the same session [my first long sword {against an earth elemental}, a rusty longsword {against a fight with some bugbears}). I feel behind. But then again, that could be because of what everyone else has. But elaborating on that would likely send this over to "What's a player to do?" so I won't ;). Edit: Ooh ooh. I just remembered one more question. The cleric's player swears up and down theres a rule somewhere that lets me further specialize in my weapon (longsword). Now, I think I know what she's talking about because Baldur's Gate uses something like that, but I can't find it. Where is this alleged rule, if it exists? (I'm currently owed (if I understand the rules correctly) a weapon proficiency slot so I'd like to be able to use it ;)) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 9] Author : Hiryu Date : 08-31-04 10:59 PM I think this was a DM issue and not so much a rules issue. It could have been one of any number of creatures or one of any number of spells, including doppleganglers, phymorph, change self and even dragons who can shapechange at will. Even if it was a mere nakie elf he could have still had a big AC, all the DM needs to say is that he had 18 Dex (-4) and a ring of protection +2 for a total AC of 4. Moreover, you need to remember the golden rule: If the DM says it happens, then it happened, regardless of what the rules say. The real problem here is if the character died intentionally or not. I am inclined to think the DM intended to kill that character, if he would have wanted the mage to live all he had to do was budge a die or have the NPC choose a diferent strategy. Even retreat. If that character's death was trully a mistake on part of the DM, I think it would be time to look for a new one that can actually calculate the risks he wants to throw at the party. There is nothing I hate more than "accidental" PK'ing by a poorly prepared DM with lousy resources. Example, once I was playing my favorite character who somehow got transfered to Ravenloft. Once there, he (my character) failed a saving throw against a banshee, meaning instant death. I was reluctantly putting my character on the "graveyard" binder when the DM magically and unexplainably pulled the whole deceased party off the demiplane of dread and they all woke up getting resurrected for free at Waterdeep and with no Con loss. The cheapest fix in the book. Since we were already pulled out of Ravenloft, he couldn't finish his adventure and the session was a complete flop. Needless to say, I have never wanted to play with him anymore and forgot that adventure ever happened, XP awards included. As a DM, I make a point in never killing PC's unless I need to in order to get rid of a power player or because it would further the story (in which case I leave them in a coma or something of the sort). Forget about reviving characters, since I have only done it once in over 10 years of DM'ing. (and again, only because it was a plot-related event and it was planned well before that adventure began) Some DM's LOVE player killing, and I have seen many run massacres just for the amusement of watching the players wet their pants when all their best characters die. Now, that is far from my liking, but if that's the thing for a gaming table that's good too. If this is the kind of DM you have and you are willing or even looking forward to the always impossible challenge of not dying to his plots, that's cool too. However, and I must repeat, if it was an honest mistake and not a planned killing of the mage, maybe you should either try to find a new DM or help him improve his skills with constructive criticism in case he is just now learning to run a game. One of the things I always do after a session is ask my players: "What did you liked most and what do you think wasn't so good?". Now about your other questions I think that equipment is perfect for a 3rd-4th level character. Then again, I always try and make a point on keeping magical items rare so they don't loose meaning when players do find them. (ie. "bah, just another +2 sword... isn't there something better, here?") Also, don't beat yourself up for not having equipment as "kewl" as the other guys of the party. A character played with wit, resourcefulness and creativity can kick more tushie than a high level character with a +20 sword played only as a collection of numbers and bonuses. As for your last question, yes, there are ways to advance even more in one weapon. Most of these are described in Player's Option: Combat & Tactics, where there are many forms of weapon mastery described, including grand and high masteries. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Downloaded from Wizards Community (http://forums.gleemax.com) at 05-10-08 08:19 AM.