* * * Wizards Community Thread * * * -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Thread : Dual weapons and specialization Started at 09-20-04 11:08 PM by Nifftin Visit at http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=310894 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 1] Author : Nifftin Date : 09-20-04 11:08 PM Thread Title : Dual weapons and specialization I'm a DM in a 2ed game and I frequently come up with this question: If some one is specialized in a weapon (say a dagger) and is weilding two of them would they have the normal attacks per round + one because of the second weapon? Thanks in advance, Niff -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 2] Author : kebilal Date : 09-20-04 11:16 PM Yes, I have always ruled that way. But specialization, at least the form presented in UA, was the first really unbalancing rule that was implemented imho. Keb -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 3] Author : Nifftin Date : 09-20-04 11:21 PM Thread Title : Ua...? What is UA? And what exactly does imho mean? (sorry, not caught up with this forum's terms) From what I've read in the DMG seems pretty balanced to me. Once a fighter (but i allow all classes...) reach a certain level they get to attack more per round + better thaco and damage. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 4] Author : kebilal Date : 09-20-04 11:28 PM UA = Unearthed Arcana, one of the last first edition rulebooks published, and a forerunner to the 2nd Ed ruleset. And imho = in my humble opinion :) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 5] Author : Hiryu Date : 09-21-04 03:24 AM According to the rules, no, they don't recieve an aditional attack. For that, the character would need a proficiency in two-weapon combat in adition to the specialization. Also, off-hand weapons have an attack penalty depending on class. This means that, for instance, a leftie will incur into a penalty if he tries to use a weapon with his right hand. If I remember correctly, this penalties are exactly the same as those for inproficiency. Ambidexterity may cut this penalties in half if you are using Skills & Powers or other alternate rules that include an ambidexterity mechanic. You can find more detailed info in the PHB's weapon proficiencies section or in Player's Option: Combat & Tactics. That said, as a DM you have the final say on that. You don't need to be married to the rules at all, just go with what feels best for the balance and power level you want on your campaign. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 6] Author : Nifftin Date : 09-21-04 08:54 AM Thank you Kebilal. And Hiryu, I think your right. If I remember correctly (too lazy to read the books next to my feet) if you wield two weapons you get penalties for each hand (-2, -4) unless if you have ambidexterity (drops to 0,-2) and if you specialize in two weapon style you get a flat 0 for each hand, thus allowing one to apply bonuses (Ie. +1 for weapon specialization, +x for weapon bonus) without any negatives. I think I'll just keep it to one additional attack per round. Seems kind of overpowering if it is the same amount of attacks per round (like an 8th level swinging 4 times per round :OMG! ) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 7] Author : diaglo Date : 09-21-04 01:05 PM penalties are based on dex in 1edADnD when trying to fight two weapon style. some of that carried over into the 2edADnD rules too. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 8] Author : Nifftin Date : 09-22-04 09:13 PM Hmm.. if one is weilding two blades (or what ever weapon they fancy) do they have two attacks/maneuvers in their first attack? or would it have to be resolved in the other attack 'rounds' in the round? ex: Ragdar has two axes and is level 9. He would normally recieve two attacks per round (due to specialization). Before he picked up the other axe the combat was like this: Ragdar wins iniative and smacks goblin. The goblin then attacks with his club but misses. Since Ragdar won iniative before he swings again for his second attack. Off goes the goblin's head. But now he's got two axes... would combat follow like this? ex1: Ragdar encounters a pair of goblins as he goes further down the cave. Again, he's lucky and wins iniative. He swings his axe that is in his right hand at one and the other axe to the other unfortunate creature. The first one falls promptly but the other still lives, barely. It makes a weak jab at Ragdar. It bounces off his breast plate. Ragdar, with one attack left, cuts down hard and splits the golbin in twain. or... ex2: Ragdar meets the same pair again (that darn wizard in the cave sends him back in time!). With unbelievable luck Ragdar wins initiative, again! He gives a mighty swing and lays low one opposing creature. The remaining goblin attacks with his rusty short sword dealing a nasty wound to Radgar. Ragdar, furious (who wouldn't? He's wearing plate and a lowly goblin hit him!), smacks the goblin with the axe in his left hand. Poor creature falls back but foolishly keeps on standing. Since the goblin has no second attack Ragdar receives his final swing (with his right) and the thing falls, dead. Which on is right? Or, if there is another way please inform me. Thanks, Niff -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 9] Author : diaglo Date : 09-23-04 07:50 AM i guess it depends on edition. ;) in 1edADnD. combat was in rounds. rounds were 1 minute long. each attack represented the "best chance" you had during that minute to get a blow in. so each roll wasn't just an attack... it was the best attack for that minute of melee. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 10] Author : Nifftin Date : 09-23-04 06:23 PM Well, ain't 2edADnD the same way? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 11] Author : diaglo Date : 09-24-04 11:52 AM Well, ain't 2edADnD the same way? not quite. ;) in 1edADnD you rolled d6 for init. they changed how things worked in init. wrt to spellcasting and attacks and movement and a few other things in combat. but many of these changes started to arrive in Dragon and the UA and OA and WSG and DSG... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 12] Author : Agrivar_wpg Date : 09-24-04 01:22 PM How we have always run multiple attacks with multiple weapons (specialization or not) is the the extra attacks only apply to the main hand weapon. All the secondary weapon will ever give is 1 additional attack. In terms of how the attack sequence is carried out, the first main hand attack and the off hand attack go at the same time (first if you won initiative), then the counter attacks, then the extra attack with the main hand, then an additional counter attacks, and on and on ... With the exception of Haste spells, the off hand attack would only ever happen once, at the original initiative. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 13] Author : Nifftin Date : 09-24-04 08:08 PM i guess it depends on edition. ;) in 1edADnD. combat was in rounds. rounds were 1 minute long. each attack represented the "best chance" you had during that minute to get a blow in. so each roll wasn't just an attack... it was the best attack for that minute of melee. well, diaglo, I was meaning this part, not those other parts of battle and rules. In 2edADnD a combat round is the same length and the 'best chance' thing was still understood. Agrivar_wpg - thanks for your input! I always thought it was that but for some odd reason I second guessed myself. Oh, and if they were hasted would the off hand deal more than one attack? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 14] Author : Agrivar_wpg Date : 09-25-04 01:34 AM Niftin - the way the spell (Haste) reads the object of the spell gets double their normal attacks. So if a dual wielder were hasted (or any magical effect that simulated a haste spell; ie. potion of speed) they would get two attacks with their second weapon in a round. It's interesting to think that a high-level fighter would be better served by using a shield than dual wielding (what's 1 extra attack when you get 3?), whereas a low level fighter is probably better served dual wielding, where the extra attack could spell the difference at the expense of some armour. This is a realization that may cause people to second guess this ruling. An interesting side note to this would be when the extra "hasted" attacks would occur. With an initiative win for a specialized 7th level fighter (attack 2/1) who is dual wielding and hasted ... when would the 4 primary and 2 secondary attacks play out in the course of a round? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 15] Author : Nifftin Date : 09-25-04 09:01 AM Thread Title : mmmm... Fighter's Handbook Well, I would just think that it would follow regular combat rules. You'd strike in every 'manuever' stage. And personally, I would think that the attacks would be seperated evenly (two primary attacks followed by a secondary attack and repeat). Or perhaps the player can choose which hand to strike with when they strike? As long as they follow the amount of attacks available of course. It's interesting to think that a high-level fighter would be better served by using a shield than dual wielding (what's 1 extra attack when you get 3?), I can't think on how that would work, care to explain? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 16] Author : MordainThade Date : 10-02-04 05:58 AM Well, I still play by (mostly) 2nd edition rules... actually, I'm trying to put together a "2.5", mostly because I favor the way that 3rd edition ability scores work... but, enough of that, time for my 2 cents... (more like $5) Basic rules state that a weapon in the off hand only ever gives one extra attack (barring circumstances such as a Haste spell, in which case the off-hand will attack twice). With a character without two-weapon fighting style (called 2wFS for short), the basic penalties to attack are -2 for the good hand, -4 for the off-hand; in addition, the weapon in the off-hand must be smaller than the weapon in the good hand unless both are size S. Ambidexterity states that it effectively gives the character two "good hands"; it never quantifies the exact bonuses / penalties (I think), but we play it as -2 for both hands (they are both "good"). Also, I remember reading that the "reaction adjustment" modifier for high Dexterity helps to cancel out the penalties for off-handed use (can't remember where, offhand). In the campaign I run, I try to keep the rules that I use as similar as possible to the world portrayed by the novels (I play Forgotton Realms, BTW). So, I had to answer how every Drow was running around with two longswords (or scimitars, etc). So, here are the rules by which we play (sorry for the long-winded :teach: ): Non-proficiency with 2wFS causes penalties as stated above (-4/-2), with 1 extra attack gained with a smaller weapon than that held in the good hand; these penalties can be reduced by the Reaction Modifier from high Dexterity scores. One slot of 2wFS reduces the penalties to 0/-2; still 1 extra attack, and still a smaller weapon. Devoting two slots to 2wFS removes all penalties from the attacks and allows a being to use two weapons of the same size; the secondary weapon still provides only 1 additional attack. Finally, if a person devotes three slots to 2wFS, they may receive their full allotment of attacks with both hands (assuming specialization or another factor that gives a natural # of attacks with one weapon greater than 1/round). Ambidexterity figures in like this: without 2wFS, the attack penalties are -2/-2 instead of -2/-4 (modified by Reaction mod from DEX); with one slot of 2wFS, the penalties are removed and the being can use two weapons of same size; with two slots of 2wFS, they receive full allotment of attacks. Effectively, ambidexterity functions as a slot of 2wFS that is less effective as the first slot taken, but equal to the second or third slot. The possibilities here are a bit nasty, but not terribly so; take a level 1 fighter, with standard 4 weapon proficiency slots. 2 could go to specialization with Long Sword; two to style specialization - 2wFS. Ambidexterity could be taken as a trait (if using Skills & Powers) or as a proficiency (listed.. somewhere). Thus, at first level, his attacks would be 3/2 with each hand; we simply go with 3/1 (the fighter would choose which weapon swings twice in the first round; this weapon would swing once in the second round). At mid to high levels, this gets a bit ugly, but then again, challenging these characters is tough anyways; ultimately the bonuses here are just another nasty trick (and thus, really not worth mentioning compared to the huge number of nasty tricks). We play that Grand Mastery only gives another 1/2 attack (instead of the 1 stated in PO:C&T; it keeps bookkeeping easier); so, a 13th level Fighter Grand Master with full slots of 2wFS would be getting 3/1 off each hand (6/1 total, 12/1 hasted). Oh yeah: the second weapon always attacks at base initiative speed, just like a troll's claws and bite happen at the same time; if multiple attacks are gained through multiple weapons, they happen at base initiative speed; its when the multiple attacks are gained with the same weapon that they are delayed until everyone has had an action. Regarding extra attacks with Haste, they are basically stacked per normal rules (I think I read this somewhere as well; perhaps in the High Level Campaigns book, or PO:C&T); that is, a fight with a hasted fighter with 2/1 normally (increased to 4/1; he's named A) fighting another dude with 3/1 (named B) will have the following attack pattern (assuming A wins initiative): A, B, A, B, A, B, A. If A was also had full-fledged 2wFS (under our rules), it would instead go: AA, B, AA, B, AA, B, AA. Or, if you want Haste to be more lethal, you could go with the double immediately option: the 1vs1 fight goes AA, B, AA, B, B; the 2vs1 fight goes AAAA, B, AAAA, B, B. Choose your evil :devil: @ Nifftin: I'm of the opinion that a high-level character is always best off with two weapons. AC is moot at high-level play, unless heavy magic or really nasty creatures are used. It should also be remembered that with the extra combat options (parry, disarm, etc), a weapon could easily be more useful than a simple AC-adding shield (until you take into account shield-punching, shield-rushing, and the like, and even then, it probably still favors the second weapon). This was long; sorry if it was TOO long for some, but its kind of a complex thing, and I felt the need to contribute :D -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 17] Author : Nifftin Date : 10-02-04 09:10 AM Well, thanks for posting! Seems like you answered my next question I was pondering: How many blows can a creature with multiple natural weapons attempt to land. (like a troll with three attacks: claw, claw, bite). I did them seperatly, but it would make sense to put them together... right? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 18] Author : Righetti Date : 10-03-04 11:05 PM yeah, it was clarified when 3rd ed D&D was printed, that when a monster has mutiple attacks from mutliple sources( 3 attacks= 2claw and 1bite) they all occur at once. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 19] Author : Piff Date : 10-05-04 09:19 PM Ah, well, that sounds rather unfair to the players! But I suppose that why they're so challenging (creatures with 2+ attacks). Uhm.. lemme get this straight... if Player A has two weapons he attacks against Opponent B it would be...: AA B A Assuming the player is 6ish level. or...: A B A A -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Downloaded from Wizards Community (http://forums.gleemax.com) at 05-10-08 08:16 AM.