* * * Wizards Community Thread * * * -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Thread : Some Psionicist questions... Started at 10-11-04 11:21 AM by MadBall Visit at http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=320936 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 1] Author : MadBall Date : 10-11-04 11:21 AM Thread Title : Some Psionicist questions... From Complete Handbook of Psionics: Ectoplasm Form: With this power a psionicist converts himself to ectoplasm, (a fine-spun, smoky substance). He becomes insubstantial, ghostlike, and able to walk through solid material as if it didn't exist. The psionicist is still visible as a wispy outline. He moves at his normal movement rate and in the normal fashion (e.g., if he couldn't fly before, he can't now). The psionicist can also convert the following to ectoplasm: his clothing, armor, and up to 15 pounds of equipment that he's carrying. Power Score - The maintenance cost is 3 PSPs per round. 20 - The psionicist's items become ectoplasmic, but he doesn't. He must use this power again (successfully) to retrieve them. What would you allow a PC to do when in ectoplasmic form? Can he fight and harm someone? Can he be harmed by normal weapons? Can he be harmed by magic weapons? Can he take a item (any) and put it into the body of someone and let loose the item (nasty), to have the item materialised within the victims body, thus harming the unlucky victim very severe (say instant death)? Can he be seen easily? From Complete Handbook of Psionics: Disintegrate: The disintegrate science reduces an item or creature to microscopic pieces and scatters them. Anything is vulnerable unless it is protected by magical shielding such as a minor or regular globe of invulnerability or by an inertial barrier. The psionicist chooses his target, but he can disintegrate no more than 8 cubic feet of material with one use of this power. If the target is an inanimate object, it must save vs. disintegration; success means it is unaffected. If the target is a living creature, character, or an undead creature with free will, it must make a saving throw vs. death magic. If it succeeds, the creature feels only a slight tingle, but is otherwise unaffected. If the save fails, the creature is disintegrated (or 8 cubic feet right out of its center, which should be enough to kill most anything). Power Score - The power affects 16 cubic feet and saves are made with a -5 penalty. 20 - The power backfires and it affects the initiator (save with +5 bonus). What would you allow a PC to disintegrate? Can one also disintegrate standard magic items (weapon +1 etc)? Can one also disintegrate magic locks or traps? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 2] Author : MordainThade Date : 10-12-04 01:54 AM Effectively, Ectoplasmic Form is equal to the Wraithform wizard spell, and Disintegrate is equal to the spell of the same name. People tend to get really strange ideas when it comes to psionics, and never would have gotten those ideas if they were working with magic instead. I read an article (can't remember where) that discussed the potential of players to "pull the fast one" on the DM because psionics are rare, and info regarding their exact abilities is difficult to find. Basically, ask yourself if a person in Wraithform can do any of that which you asked. As well, how would you let a Disintegrate spell work? Answer those, and you have answered your own questions. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 3] Author : abysslin Date : 10-12-04 10:17 AM What would you allow a PC to do when in ectoplasmic form? Can he fight and harm someone? Can he be harmed by normal weapons? Can he be harmed by magic weapons? Can he take a item (any) and put it into the body of someone and let loose the item (nasty), to have the item materialised within the victims body, thus harming the unlucky victim very severe (say instant death)? Can he be seen easily? Actually, ectoplasmic form is that of a Ghost. All of your questions can simply be answered by looking at the Ghost entry of your Monstrous Manual. Disintegrate: What would you allow a PC to disintegrate? Can one also disintegrate standard magic items (weapon +1 etc)? Can one also disintegrate magic locks or traps? All items have saving throws as described in your DMG. Magic items are to be considered as having a + to their item saving throw equal to 1 or 1 per +, generally. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 4] Author : MadBall Date : 10-13-04 06:22 AM Thaanks for the answers... >and Disintegrate is equal to the spell of the same name. < Yes, I understand BUT Psionic Disintegrate is preparation time 0 and Magic Disintegrate is casting time 6. Psionics do this job in a blink of an eye, whereas Wizards are mumbling and waving hands and hollering around and spending some sort of dust... Thats why I do not want to have them the same in function. Ok, Psionics need to make a succesfull roll against Wisdom-4, assuming a Wisdom of 16 (rather 18) if the psionic players is not that dumb, leaving it to 12+ on a D20, mens more then a fifty percent chance for success. I still dont like this... Maybe it is a good idea to add at least 1 round to ALL psionics preparation times. Maybe then psionics are not such unbalanced like they are in 2nd ed. >Effectively, Ectoplasmic Form is equal to the Wraithform wizard spell,< Yes, that is a very good comparison. I can live with it. So: Can he fight and harm someone? NO Can he be harmed by normal weapons? NO Can he be harmed by magic weapons? YES Whats about: Can he take a item (any) and put it into the body of someone and let loose the item (nasty), to have the item materialised within the victims body, thus harming the unlucky victim very severe (say instant death)? The above question is important, because I need a good counter to that because this is the favourite tactic of one of the players character and I am at an end with endless discussion about this. DMHELP! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 5] Author : MordainThade Date : 10-13-04 08:29 PM Well, an easy response would be to say that anything shifting out of Ectoplasmic Form has to occupy only its own space; that is, it can't be left inside of something else. The power cannot be willingly ended while anything that the psionicist effected is within already occupied space. This is similar to the Blink spell ruling; if the caster would blink into a solid object, they are blinked again. Similarly, Teleportation cannot send a person into a solid object (unless the spell errs, in which case it is accidental). A person under the effects of an Improved Blink cannot willingly blink into the space occupied by something else, as well. Simply rule that Ectoplasmic Form cannot be willingly ended as long as they (or anything they effected) is within something else. There is no reason for them to do this in a normal situation, so they cannot do so at all. While they may be stuck in a wall if they run out of PSPs, they cannot willingly suicide while traversing those same cracks in the wall. This would apply to all things; their ectoplasmic equipment would not be able to occupy another things place, so an easy solution would be for the abandoned equipment to simply appear at the nearest point that the dagger could reasonably fit; if they were trying to leave it in the chest region of a human, it would either appear in front of or behind the person (and would then fall to the ground harmlessly). The only way that they would be allowed to leave a dagger in place at this point would be if their total PSPs were expended; hardly the ideal situation for a Psionicist. Oh yeah. Final suggestion would be that if you decide upon that which I have suggested, don't inform the player of the changes until he tries his little trick again. However, inform the other players that the change is in effect, so they can back you up (no doubt they are at least a little annoyed by this abuse). Hope I helped! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 6] Author : Hoondatha Date : 10-13-04 10:36 PM 2e psionics have been a nightmare for both DM's (when the PC's are good) and PC's (when the DM gets nasty) ever since the book came out. I can't really say anything on ectoplasmic form better than has already been said, but I will step up to the plate with disintegrate. Psionic disintegrate is exactly the same as magical disintegrate. Deal with it. It's one of the few times psionics exactly duplicates magic (probably because the effect is so useful and deadly). The only difference is in how much can be vanished (magic allows a lot more). Also, a wizard summons a beam of green light, a psionicist simply glares. So yes, you can disintegrate magical items (weapons, locks, golems, you name it). About the only thing that's immune are items or beings within a globe of protection (but not antimagic sphere, since this is psionics, not magic), and artifacts. About rebalancing 2e psionics, my advice is to not even try. In my opinion, the fact they're unbalanced is part of their charm (but then again, all of my games have a very heavy "life isn't always fair" theme, for both good and bad). Also, think about it for a moment. Say you have a first level psychokineticist with disintegrate. Well, bad example, since it's impossible. First, they don't have the prereq's, second, not enough PSP's. So let's give this guy a few levels. Yes, he can, at will, probably fire off a 6th level wizard spell. BUT: they are then essentially useless. They will have wasted all of their power on a one shot try, and won't have the power to do anything else. Very bad for the psionicist. Simply throw two or three monsters at him instead of one, assume one gets dusted, and the other two kill the mindbender. Problem solved. Finally, if you want more info on psionics, I'd reccomend the Dark Sun board. DS lives and breathes psionics like FR does magic, and the people there know more about it than anyone else here (IMO). -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 7] Author : Hiryu Date : 10-14-04 01:19 AM On both cases I would kill the psionic character and ask the player to stop pretending this is some sort of medieval version of Cyberpunk. Psions in AD&D are horrendously broken and are overall a DM's worst nightmare. If I HAD to adjudicate those calls, tho, I would do this: What would you allow a PC to do when in ectoplasmic form? -Almost- anything he could do under wraith form, except it wouldn't be considered to be on a different plane of existance. Can he fight and harm someone? No, he and his gear are insubstantial. Can he be harmed by normal weapons? Read above. Can he be harmed by magic weapons? Oh, yeah. I would rule all +1 or better magic weapons, as well as spells, would harm this guy. Can he take a item (any) and put it into the body of someone and let loose the item (nasty), to have the item materialised within the victims body, thus harming the unlucky victim very severe (say instant death)? No, I wouldn't allow this. While logic would dictate this is possible, this ability would be way too powerful to even entertain the idea of allowing a player do that. Can he be seen easily? The description says the character can be seen as a whispy outline. I would probably add "glowing" to the list to keep a more ghostlike flavor. So, I guess it would depend on the light conditions, the darker the easier he or she would be to spot. What would you allow a PC to disintegrate? I would change the wording so it actually reads like so: The character can only attempt to dissintegrate a creature or item with a TOTAL weight of a number of pounds equal to his level. The reason why I would use weight instead of volume is because that would be a more accurate way to represent mass in an abstract way. And mass is what this ability actually affects. Also, it has to be the TOTAL weight for two reasons: 1- It makes more sense, 2- It prevents a psion character from dissintegrating the big bad, triple classed 20/20/20 Mage/Priest/Antipaladin's head on a heartbeat. Can one also disintegrate standard magic items (weapon +1 etc)? I would never allow this in a million years. Absolutely no magic items would be affected by this. Can one also disintegrate magic locks or traps? Ditto as above. I wouldn't allow this ability to affect any magic items what-so-ever. Not even a Wand of Cantrips with no charges left. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 8] Author : MadBall Date : 10-14-04 04:59 AM Maaaaaany thanks for the answers. They help a lot: Conclusio: I feel very badly that Psionic Disintegrate should NOT allow to disintegrate Magic Items. But when Magic Disintegrate can destroy magic items then should Psionic Disintegrate also, with the expection of Artifacts and DM choices. Lets see how they react when their favourite Bag of Holding will be disintegrated in a blink of an eye... I feel very comfortable with having Ectoplasmic Form NOT able to leave items in other persons body parts, because Ectplasmic Form can not use space of other material because because it uses space itself. Thats a very good explanation which makes sense to me. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 9] Author : Hoondatha Date : 10-17-04 05:10 PM I have to strongly disagree with not being able to disintegrate magical items. Both magical and psionic disintegration can do it (if the item fails its save, of course), it's right in the rules. If you're worried about disintegrate being abused (personally, I'd be more worried about the entire school of telepathy... anyone notice that there are NO SAVES for anything telepathic, like dominate?), then take the science out of your game. Or give it a level requirement. Or mandate that it be researched as per the rules in The Will and the Way (a great, though very power-heavy, Dark Sun rulebook on psionics). Or tweak its power score or PSP cost. There's plenty that can be done. Personally, I'd try to teach the player the perils of blowing all of your strength in one shot. Illusions, clones, and other nasty tricks can all be used to make him disintegrate the wrong thing. Oh, and that F20/W20 baddie has a base Death Magic saving throw of 3. I really don't think he's going to get disintegrated any time soon. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Downloaded from Wizards Community (http://forums.gleemax.com) at 05-10-08 08:16 AM.