* * * Wizards Community Thread * * * -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Thread : Rule idea- slitting throats Started at 12-01-04 12:07 AM by Lord Sinep Visit at http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=345141 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 1] Author : Lord Sinep Date : 12-01-04 12:07 AM Thread Title : Rule idea- slitting throats > Just wanted to get opinions from others before i let my PCs do this. > I use 2nd edition and i was thinking for a Thief, if he could sneak up behind a noncombatant (guard, etc) and pull off a called shot (basicly undoing his backstab bonus only) that he would be allowed to slit their throat movie-like. > I could see some players trying to abuse it but i think it could make the sneaking up on a stationary guard tactic more useful. Guards are usually more of a hassle than a real challenge, and this would eliminate the noise of a scuffle after a backstab doesn't end things. > Your thoughts/suggestions? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 2] Author : Greyman Date : 12-01-04 04:52 AM 1. Backstab does not exist. The term is Sneak Attack. Please upgrade your terminology to third edition. ;) 2. The Assassin prestige class grants a feature called Death Attack that does what you want.Death Attack: If an assassin studies his victim for 3 rounds and then makes a sneak attack with a melee weapon that successfully deals damage, the sneak attack has the additional effect of possibly either paralyzing or killing the target (assassin’s choice). While studying the victim, the assassin can undertake other actions so long as his attention stays focused on the target and the target does not detect the assassin or recognize the assassin as an enemy. If the victim of such an attack fails a Fortitude save (DC 10 + the assassin’s class level + the assassin’s Int modifier) against the kill effect, she dies. If the saving throw fails against the paralysis effect, the victim is rendered helpless and unable to act for 1d6 rounds plus 1 round per level of the assassin. If the victim’s saving throw succeeds, the attack is just a normal sneak attack. Once the assassin has completed the 3 rounds of study, he must make the death attack within the next 3 rounds. If a death attack is attempted and fails (the victim makes her save) or if the assassin does not launch the attack within 3 rounds of completing the study, 3 new rounds of study are required before he can attempt another death attack. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 3] Author : Soepkom Date : 12-01-04 06:36 AM 1. Backstab does not exist. The term is Sneak Attack. Please upgrade your terminology to third edition. ;) I use 2nd edition and... read before you write. and to the OP, if you don't want want the guards to be a real challenge, but just something they have to do for realism or flavour when breaking into a building or sth like that, then it's a nice way to speed things up. But be clear to your players when they can use it and when not -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 4] Author : Mind Rogue Date : 12-01-04 10:19 AM Well, I don't know how it would work in second edition, but in third, your rogue can probably move silently well enough that the average guard (a first level warrior) could not hear him. Once you get close enough, you can fire a crossbow bolt, and the sneak attack damage combined with the base weapon damage is probably enough to take care of his four or five Hp. If your PC wants to slit the guards throat, have him sneak up to the guard and take his sneak attack. If he deals enough damage to knock the guard unconscious, describe it as slitting the throat and call the guy dead (skip the entire dying phase). If the poor fellow is still conscious, describe it as a knife in the gut, and the poor guy is really beaten up. Oh, and since your rogue can probably win initiative, he could do it again in the next round, meaning he'll be dead before he knows what happens. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 5] Author : WizO_TheCheat Date : 12-01-04 10:23 AM You'll probably get more accurate and thorough help with 2E rules options over here on the Out of Print boards. TheCheat -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 6] Author : Lord Sinep Date : 12-01-04 11:08 AM > I did not know the the place for 2nd edition talk was the out of print board. I'll have to check my 3.0 books to see if this death attack is what i'm looking for. The problem is, even though i love 3.x class/level rules, my players and i stick to 2nd edition because it just seems to work out better and we're used to it and it's terminology (backstab, THAC0, etc). -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 7] Author : Greyman Date : 12-01-04 11:39 AM read before you write.I did so read, and I suggested you update (with a smilie), then provided an existing 3rd edition mechanism that does as you wanted. How you backdate it into your game will be up to you. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 8] Author : failhelm Date : 12-01-04 11:48 AM backstab/sneak attack doesn't have to mean that a back was stabbed. A slitting of the throat is an appropriate attack form, with the exception that is targeting a specific area of the body, the head. In which case you simply apply a -4 to hit penalty - cancelling out the +4 back stab bonus but still providing the damange bonus - most guards are 0 level and this should work, unless they are equipped moderate to good, in which case their necks would be armored by at least leather or chain. If you are looking for instant kill I believe that it should be reserved for assassins, theives might murder but its not "what they do" per say. P.S. I forgot to mention that there are bonus effects to attacking the head area directly, and if there aren't any in 2e...make some. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 9] Author : RobertFisher Date : 12-01-04 02:05 PM One of the things I feel I misunderstood about AD&D for many years was this: If one character manages to get a dagger at another character's throat, an instant kill should be possible no matter how many HP the victim has. The trick is getting the dagger to the throat. A successful move silently helps, but I don't think it would be enough. Off the top of my head, I'm thinking the thief has to win surprise in order to get the dagger at the guard's throat. Then, when he decides to slit (either immediately or when the guard foolishly refuses to do what the thief tells him to), the guard would get a saving throw. Likewise, if the thief didn't immediately slit the guard's throat, the guard could try to throw an elbow at the thief or othrewise try to get out of his predicament. Then maybe I give the guard a saving throw in this case too. If he makes it, he managed to escape. Otherwise, the thief slit his throat the moment the guard started to move. By the way, do the OAD&D books give a specific bonus to surprise for a successful move silently? I couldn't find one. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 10] Author : failhelm Date : 12-01-04 02:32 PM One of the things I feel I misunderstood about AD&D for many years was this: If one character manages to get a dagger at another character's throat, an instant kill should be possible no matter how many HP the victim has. The trick is getting the dagger to the throat. A successful move silently helps, but I don't think it would be enough. Off the top of my head, I'm thinking the thief has to win surprise in order to get the dagger at the guard's throat. Then, when he decides to slit (either immediately or when the guard foolishly refuses to do what the thief tells him to), the guard would get a saving throw. Likewise, if the thief didn't immediately slit the guard's throat, the guard could try to throw an elbow at the thief or othrewise try to get out of his predicament. Then maybe I give the guard a saving throw in this case too. If he makes it, he managed to escape. Otherwise, the thief slit his throat the moment the guard started to move. By the way, do the OAD&D books give a specific bonus to surprise for a successful move silently? I couldn't find one. forgive me OAD&D is Out of print AD&D or Oriental Adventures D&D? In 1e surprising someone is deadly, even and average thief get a good drop on people if they get surprise. Plus you can't do backstab unless you succeed in move silent/hide in shadows, giving thieves a better chance of surprising someone. although the rules never addressed a thief's move silently against someone whom can only be surprised 1 in 6 or something. Perhaps topic for another thread, but its always bugged me a little. Ranger (only sur. 1 in 6 or 16.666% vs. Theif with 90% chance of surprise?? oh bugger. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 11] Author : jasper Date : 12-01-04 04:03 PM i would give the guard save vs death magic roll if you had surprise and move silent suceessfully. On failure your dead -11+ or save you take 1.5 * tje damage roll. However if the group agreed to this, npcs could do the same to you. On the thief vs ranger surprise an thief would have to roll 17 or less on %. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 12] Author : failhelm Date : 12-01-04 04:30 PM i would give the guard save vs death magic roll if you had surprise and move silent suceessfully. On failure your dead -11+ or save you take 1.5 * tje damage roll. However if the group agreed to this, npcs could do the same to you. On the thief vs ranger surprise an thief would have to roll 17 or less on %. I was more aiming for an easier method of dealing with the situation in general. Using the d6 comparison role mention in the DMG I still say there is no need for a saving throw, if a dragons breathe doesn't instantly kill you then a dagger shouldn't either. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 13] Author : Lord Sinep Date : 12-01-04 07:35 PM > I was thinking that if the thief did his move silently and hide in shadows, that would be automatic suprise, that's part of how the backstab works. I think in 3.x sneak attacks can catch aware flatfooted people or something, but i'm foucsing on 2nd. Yeah a good helmet with neck protection would make it impossible. The assassin/thief issue, i was thinking of this for spy(/assassin) group, so the guards would always be enemies and in need of removal either way. I don't plan to update to 3.5. I am still bitter of getting the 3.0 books and 3rd edition in general seems to be nothing but tons of monthly books to buy with little real gain. I own $1000s worth of 2nd edition books and campaigns and adventures and other stuff; been buying since about 1990. I think that replies to all of you. :) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 14] Author : RobertFisher Date : 12-02-04 01:01 PM Sorry, OAD&D = original AD&D, i.e. 1e. I got in the habit of using that moniker while keeping up with the EGG Q&A threads on ENWorld, as it is what EGG uses. While I played 2e, it was only a couple of campaigns many years ago, so you can assume all my comments about AD&D are based on OAD&D. A successful Move Silently isn't required for a back stab. You merely have to be behind the victim & the victim has to be unaware of your presense. (Hide in Shadows isn't needed either. Once you're behind the opponent & approaching for the back stab, the need for hiding--whether in shadows or conventionally--is gone.) Whether surprise is required for a back stab is a little less clear. Surprise is necessary for the +4 to hit. If the thief fails his Move Silently, he's still moving quietly. The surprise check can serve to determine if the thief moved quietly enough. It represents that the victim realizes that something is up, but too late to prevent the back stab. If the victim isn't surprised, the thief still gets back stab damage, but not the +4 to hit. Move Silently is described as "increasing chances for surprise", but not as giving auto surprise. Although, after the DM has considered all the factors, that increase might be enough to make it auto, but it might not. Now, if the thief isn't just going to back stab, but attempt putting a dagger to the victim's throat, whether he plans on immediately slitting or not, that is different. The thief has to get closer to the victim, & his hand & weapon are going to come into the victim's peripheral vision. So, I definately think rolling for surprise is warranted in that case. While I can believe that a character can survive dragons breath, it really breaks my suspension of disbelief for them to survive a throat slitting. I suppose you could decide that if it didn't kill, it must've missed the throat... I like the idea of being able to play out situations like the sneak-up-slit-throat or cinematic dagger-to-the-throat-so-do-what-I-say. If I weren't going to allow slitting the throat to be an instant kill, then I'd just treat it as a straight back stab. As I recall, there was a thread on DF on how assassinations should be handled strictly by the OAD&D books. It would be worth consulting if you were a really by-the-book kind of person. All of which may be rather useless to someone playing 2e, but hey, I'm contributing what I can. :) I enjoy AD&D more when HP aren't quite so powerful than they were as I played the game in the 1980s. While combat may be so unrealistically survivable, I like other situations to be a bit closer to realistically deadly. Anyway, that's how I'd play it. One of the great things about the game, though, is that the rules can be interpreted by the individual DM/group in different ways. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 15] Author : failhelm Date : 12-02-04 02:05 PM While I can believe that a character can survive dragons breath, it really breaks my suspension of disbelief for them to survive a throat slitting. I suppose you could decide that if it didn't kill, it must've missed the throat... I like the idea of being able to play out situations like the sneak-up-slit-throat or cinematic dagger-to-the-throat-so-do-what-I-say. If I weren't going to allow slitting the throat to be an instant kill, then I'd just treat it as a straight back stab. As I recall, there was a thread on DF on how assassinations should be handled strictly by the OAD&D books. It would be worth consulting if you were a really by-the-book kind of person. All of which may be rather useless to someone playing 2e, but hey, I'm contributing what I can. :) I enjoy AD&D more when HP aren't quite so powerful than they were as I played the game in the 1980s. While combat may be so unrealistically survivable, I like other situations to be a bit closer to realistically deadly. Anyway, that's how I'd play it. One of the great things about the game, though, is that the rules can be interpreted by the individual DM/group in different ways. I totally agree and so do my players, somewhere I think it was the DMG that a character has HP and then their true HP is how many HP they had @ 1st level, it may have been from MotP that I got it from. - very useful fact if your going to have players move to non-heroic worlds and back again. We also use system shock, disease and natural death and extended life rules that prevent characters from exceeding natural life span by more than x3. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 16] Author : RobertFisher Date : 12-03-04 11:25 AM I totally agree and so do my players, somewhere I think it was the DMG that a character has HP and then their true HP is how many HP they had @ 1st level, it may have been from MotP that I got it from. You may be thinking of DMG p. 82. After re-reading some of the threads on DF yesterday, I'm convinced that surprise is required for a back stab. There is an argument that a successful MS increases a thief's chance of surprise by 2 in 6. (So, it would normally bump it up from 2 in 6 to 4 in 6.) I think, though, OAD&D really wants to leave this completely up to the DM to decide based on the circumstances. How this interacts with elf & halfling natural abilities seems to be anyone's guess. :) I also broke out my 2e books: As far as I can tell, 2e requires surprise for a back stab, & a successful MS (when behind the victim) gives automatic surprise. It also seems to assume (unfortunately, IMHO) that a failed MS means an automatic loss of surprise. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Downloaded from Wizards Community (http://forums.gleemax.com) at 05-10-08 08:16 AM.